-The Spreading Seas have been soo good! Replacing with Remand, like the Bitterblossoms suggested before, would probably be great too. I'll have to give em a shot. but the Seas have been killer in the (admittedly narrow) matchups Ive played.
-Agreed about the removal. Maybe will bring the Paths to 4 and change the remaining Oust to Dismember. The Detention Spheres are great though, they're like UW Maelstrom Pulses. 2 might be a better number, but I fear I'd miss the 3rd.
-Sun Titan... eh. lol
-You're prob right about the SB Cryptics. I had acceleration in the form of Talismans, but ditched em to see how it went. i rarely drew them and did OK. In the green versions, some Birds probably make sense, but for 2 mana, I'd rather have removal or a counter or Spreading Seas ready. Definitely up in the air, but control decks don't typically ramp. It seems top-heavy, but it really curves out at 4, sometimes 5 (Unburial Rites) as we don't much plan to hardcast the fatties unless we go really long. <shrug>
With all the Talismans and artifacts, I would definitely run Thirst For Knowledge! Though that doesnt much help you wanting to cut stuff. Probably don't need quite so many sweepers, and could probably shave a talisman or 2. Definitely could cut the Bow. I agree with pretty much everything dull is saying, with the exception of Unburial Rites in general. BUT, it seems build dependent. Yours could probably cut one, mine below, wish I could add a 3rd. lol
I got to play a nice chunk of games with the Esper list I posted above (shall we say the 4th C is clear?), and played some with the standard 4C w/ green we're used to, and I hate(read: love) to say it's been a bit of a blowout in favor of Esper (sample size withstanding). I had the idea to cut the 3 Talismans and replace them with more controling artifacts so the Thirsts still make sense. Put some thought into the sideboard plans and, voila, this thing is a machine! (note: The maindeck is setup more for vs aggro since that's what I face most often. If your meta is more control-ish, maindeck the counters and/or discard instead of the sweepers/removal)
The Spreading Seas have been awesome, as I figured they would be (that said, I still like Muten Yoshi's idea of turning them into Bitterblossoms, but I like the Seas version). The 3 main 'Rites targets each have their own utility. Elesh vs creature swarm, Inkwell vs spot removal, Sphinx when we need a life swing or when red is a threat and white is not. The Wurmcoil was a Baneslayer, and it may become one again, but figured better the artifact. The point is the lifegain, but if the flight and lower casting cost seems more important than artifact-edness and resiliency, I'll happily switch it back.
Spellskite and Metamorph are cheap but useful cards that can either turn a game around, or just be pitched to a Thirst. Note even outside the artifacts, we also have many things that want to be in the grave (most of which are fine in hand too), and even hitting our own guy with a sweeper if needed (rare, but could happen) still leaves them reanimate-able. Even when Thirst is as its worst, it's still pretty good. Like 'Scry 3, draw a card' but even better since we can get rid of things in our hand if need be. Note 3 different sweepers and 3 different removals for Gifts-ing in a pinch. And Snapcasters.
Versus aggro we have spot removal, sweepers, and lifegain. Timely Reinforcements can come in, and Elesh is already in.
Versus control we can board in discard and counters for the sweepers and removal, and we have a shrouded fattie (that can't be blocked post-Spreading Seas), Detention Sphere for annoying non-creature permanents ('walkers, RIPs, Cranial Platings, etc), and manlands when we go long. If they're on the 'one big creature as finisher' plan, we have the exact same creature, but ours only costs 3 mana (Metamorph).
Versus any combo that ends with a swift something-to-the-face, board in the Leylines, discard, and counters. Spreading Seas hurts Scapeshift. Depending on our Thirst-iness, Living End could benefit us more than them. What's burn gonna do vs Leylines, lifegain, and sweepers(for the burn-sticks). Even my favorite Seismic Loam keeps getting trumped by the damn Sphinx (sniff). We're probably soft to Dredgevine and too slow for Goryo. Can't win 'em all.
Stony Silence from the board actually only affects a single one of our artifacts, Spellskite. Not too heartbreaking. Though do note 'skite is also an 0/4 wall in a world where 3-toughness is all the rage. Relic from the board can be our own pseudo-DRS (tap ability), or the nuclear option that hurts us a bit too, but: a. if we're doing it, it hurts them more. b. we get a card for it, whoopie.
Definitely didn't expect to dig this deck as much as I do. Hopefully its early success hasn't been a fluke.
Also took out the 2nd Ghost Quarter and 4th Blackcleave Cliffs for an 8th fetch and 2nd Stomping Ground. Using fetchlands for our land drops when we can is just so huge (as is having good targets for them, naturally).
I finally got to get a good play session going with my Jund Loam, pretty stock stuff with the Bobs and goyfs, yadda yadda. The question that came about is what are the Lilianas for, really? The deck already has a ton of discard, not even counting Crime recursion. The number of decks with a creature base small enough that "sac one creature of your choice" is rarely devastating. And even in long grindy matchups, which is where I assume Lili is supposed to shine, doesn't Assault Loam (the cards, not the name) kinda provide the enevitability? And if its to get stuff into the grave, everything we have that functions well in the yard can get there better by using it. Lol
I'm kind of guessing I'm missing or forgetting something, but my deck has 3 Lilis because research told me it should. But almost every time I saw it I was like "ew." Before I swap er for some abrupt decays or something, is there a case for that being a mistake? (Hell, I had removed 3 countryside crushers, would love those back!)
After putting together the Esper version and finally playing some games with it, I decided to proxy up a more 'traditional' 4C with which to compare. It's nothing super innovative overall, with my only real creative 'twist' being the 2 Baneslayers and singleton Elspeth just to try em out.
I tend not to post exact sideboards since everyone's gonna have their own ideas how those should go, but some sort of IoK/T'seize suite seems like a good idea. Ditto some number of Negates and, at least 1 more Path, and since I also have Robots built up (and thus will face it), Creeping Corrosion looks fun to try for one expecting that.
Counterb4lance: Me too, for the most part. The main reasons I gave Souls the nod are: 1. Flying 2. If Timely is better here, someone will probably tell me so.
Muten Yoshi: Heh, I bet Bitterblossom would be pretty sick here actually. Though I feel the same about Spreading Seas. If the rest seems good to go, both warrant a try imo. I'm just thrilled you think it's 4 cards away from good. lol
Darkshar: That deck looks pretty sweet, though it's also very different. I wasn't able to look at it for long, but will give it a thorough look.
Zefnar: Cutting green might NOT be correct. But for me, I just want to find the strongest ways to run Gifts-Rites-fatty, regardless of colors. I'm kind of obsessed w/ the idea lately, since I want to put one more deck together and all I know for sure about it is that it will have 4 Gifts and 2+ Rites. I wasn't trying to derail anything, just trying to think up whatever idea(s) could effectively house that combination.
Spreading seas is an interesting idea. What is your thought process behind it?
Multiple things:
1. I saw it in some other well-performing Esper control lists during my research.
2. Almost every mana base in Modern is highly vulnerable to it. I could expound on this, but you've already thought of 12 format staple lands it hoses before this sentence ended.
3. It's cheap and replaces itself in the hand.
4. It synergizes nicely w/ Inkwell.
5. It's really annoying to face. To a true control player, this is relevant. lol
Sideboard could have the discard, in line with what Counterb4lance is saying. Counters too, maybe a couple Spellskite, and I like the idea of 3 Leyline of Sanctity. But really the board is so meta specific, it's almost pointless to try to just make one up.
Counterb4lance, re the Talismans (Talismen? lol).. I'm not totally married to them, myself, but seemed like a good suggestion for some accelerant and to make Thirst for Knowledge smoother. But if the deck ended up better removing them for some discard or counters, or something else helpful like Timely Reinforcements I wouldn't be terribly heartbroken.
Edit: Thinking about it, the usually smart idea (in Modern in general) of Hallowed Burial may not be so good for us since it prevents the line where our sweep catches one of our own guys but then we reanimate it. Instead I'd probably want another Supreme Verdict, but I like the idea of 3 different sweepers for a Gifts pile. The mana is so Black-light, not sure if Damnation would be worth it.
I like certain stuff from both lists, for sure. More so the first, though definitely imagined the land base more like the 2nd one (though 27 probably not necessary, especially with Talismans). Both seem to ease up on the discard angle, do you agree with that? Or have had success with that? I ask since a lot of lists have the Inquisitions and Thoughtseizes and all, however when they have one of each it seems a little pointless. Also, unless I'm just over-evaluating the reanimation game plan in general, I continue to be baffled by lists with a single Unburial Rites. lol
I felt strongly about Inkwell and Sphinx as great reanimation targets already, but in a deck with 4 Thirst for Knowledge, it just feels even sweeter (with their being artifacts we actively WANT in the 'yard and all). I guess, since I don't have the sort of experience w/ Gifts decks I do w/, like, Assault Loam, I'm just not sure what the most important controlling factors are among discard, permission, board sweepability, spot removal, etc. The reanimation part is easy, but thriving before and after it looks to be the key.
Edit: I'm attempting to research some other Esper Control lists around the net just for comparison, ideas, etc. So, using that, your 2 lists above, and whatever else I stumble upon, I'll post something updated tonight. All I know is after you mentioned Thirst, I'm totally sold on both IT and the Inkwell/Sphinx (though if someone can refute all that, I'm always open to more knowledgable people telling me why I'm wrong, not being sarcastic).
Thirst definitely supports the Inkwell/Sphinx fatty package idea. Though Esper Charm deals with RIP and can help keep decimating their hands. -shrug- for the Talismans, would you ease up on the discard, counters, removal, or sweepers?
Just another thought about a Gifts/Rites angle, what about an esper 'control' route with the fatty package as 2 Inkwell Leviathan and a Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Idea is mainly that The Inkwells are more likely to stick around than non shrouded/hexproofed dudes.
And then with the last 4 slots either, like, 3 Lilianas and a 1-of, or something like 2 Remands and 2 Sphinx's Revelations.
Esper Charm is great as more discard, draw, and even an answer for RIP if needed. Even if the 'Esper Control' part is less optimal than the 4c stuff we're used to, the Inkwells (or is there a better shrouded/hexproof fattie?) seem to make our main wincon so much more resiliant than removal bait that leaves around a couple zombies, no? And the trample keeps the clock scary. With the other shells, the Elesh probably makes more sense than the Sphinx, though. He still might anyway, I just like the flight and lifelink.
As I've been thinking so hard over what the perfect Gifts(U)/Unburial Rites(B/W) deck should look like, the roadblock I keep hitting is just that it wants too many things, and worse, 5 colors. And the mana just can't really support that. And we just don't really want to give up ANY color...
U- Hard to play Gifts w/o U, among other things
B- No Rites out of hand, Lili, no discard, etc
W- Have to be able to Rites from the grave, plus no Lingering Souls nor Paths?
G- No Loam engines, Abruptness, Maelstromness, etc
R- No looting, no burn for removal, no Flame Jab recusion, etc
So if we haaaave to pick a color to go, Red seems to be the unfortunate choice, as it seems to be the only one even possible to let go of. But then I got to thinkin' about cards like Lightning Axe, Izzet Charm, and a surprise fatty below, and wondered if a burn-centric variant could work, begrudgingly ditching the Green. What do you guys think of something like this...?
note: None of the numbers below are set in stone, aside from, like, 4 Gifts. Just a sketch I think could work, please feel abundantly free to change around any numbers.
24 Lands - We've shown we can support 4 colors, and the below is actually pretty easy on mana (hell, we even get Marsh Flats and Scalding Tarns), so I'm just trying to sketch out the meat here. The landy crust should be easy if the below is deemed 'could-work-able.' So we'll see if you guys think this idea has any merit before I type up the lands. lol
4 Gifts Ungiven - duh
4 Snapcaster Mage - far more important than with most other builds, me thinks. As you'll see below...
4 Faithless Looting - major enabler, gets us gas and puts stuff in the yard
4 Izzet Charm - Crazy good here... another looter, removal, and even counter backup. All 3 modes at work here!
4 Lightning Axe - So you're saying if we enable one gameplan, Lightning Bolts do 5, enabling our other game plan? Deal. (edit: God dangit, I just re-read and noted Axe does not say "or player." *sigh* OK, maybe not 4 of these, and up the Bolts to 4 lol)
4 Lightning Helix - Usually you see 4 Bolts and 2 or 3 Helices, but given the low curve and likely relevance of life totals, this deck may call for a flip flop of said norm.
3 Lightning Bolt - This, and the above 2(3 actually) cards function as removal, but also a ton of burn to the dome. So this suite can serve aggressive AND controlling roles. Snapcaster gives it even MORE utility.
2 Unburial Rites - A lot of these Gifts decks run 1 copy, which I honestly don't get, but this version may even want 3, so we can pseudo-always threaten a big reanimation.
As for the Rites targets, Inferno Titan serves both of the deck's purposes, and was the original idea, but then I remembered an old buddy, Bogardan Hellkite. I'm honestly not sure what the exact fatty package should be(and am hoping you guys are), but ideas for somewhere in the 75 could include, in no partic order:
Inferno Titan, Bogardan Hellkite, Elesh Norn, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and anyone else you guys think of that might fit well here. Any other creatures that do damage or cause life loss upon ETB? Elesh probably has to be in the 75 for aggro matchups, but may wanna start in the board.
If we assume 3 fatties for Rites targets (it's gotta be 2, 3, or 4) and the above numbers, we're left with 4 slots. The sideboard is gonna be important here, as I think these slots (and some of the above when needed) should be transformational. I mentioned the Sphinx above for more life gain (flying and pro-2/5 ain't bad either), and for similar reasons think for the last slots, some number of Timely Reinforcements might make more sense than the usual Lingering Souls as an option. Likewise, rather than Pyroclasm, we may prefer some number of Volcanic Fallout if you want a sweeper since it advances our burn agenda. Or a couple Kitchen Finks rather than Lily Lily Legs Liliana (/Blazing Saddles reference) for durability.
We may instead want spot removal or counters too, but again, those could be put in the board, among other things.
Anyway, this was a rough sketch of what a Greenless Gifts build could look like, and there are definite potent synergies going on if the deck can:
a. Survive (hence plenty of removal, some life gain, even card draw)
b. Be scary when we reanimate
I kind of expect the idea to be shot down, and if it does suck, go for it. But aside from lacking Lili and some Loam recursion trickery, this seems like a much more focused variant as compared to all the 1-of silver-bullet lists I see. Not to say those are bad, not at all, just that representing 44 points of burn (edit: re-embarrassed about Axe mixtake. I don't think it kills the concept, though) without even including Snapcaster, Izzet Charm, or even the ETB fatties could be as-or-more threatening than, like, a 1-of Inquisition and 1-of Dismember somewhere in the 60. I also expect other cards exist I'm not thinking of or aware of that help even more (there's got to be some other big Red or Black "we both take a bunch of damage together" spell). Also note how little Black we'd need, which just makes our mana smoother.
Dull, you don't mind if I just assume you ARE Tigran Petrosian, right? Would go a long way twd explaining why you prefer controlish builds.
I was actually wondering if little mana dorks for acceleration might be good here, so I'm glad to see you contemplating BoP. It sucks to get them bolted, but is great for n-drops to become (n-1)-drops.
Apologies for double-post, but the above was purely about Akalah's Polymorph build, but this is a quick question about the Gifts decks in general:
Say we live the dream and EOT Gifts for fattie+Rites, then on our turn reanimate our fattie. What do we have in mind vs the simple rebuttal of Path to Exile, or some other removal? I assume we don't just hold out on our big move till we have a grip of countermagic, and few are the decks playing no removal, even pre-board. I know some of our fatties give us nice value upon ETB, but sufficent to be called a wincon? To those with a lot of experience with these decks, does this not come up that often?
Much as I lament the loss of green (and it sounds like you do too), I really REALLY dig this idea Akalah. If one were to cede that Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls are strong in these decks anyway, then the Polymorphs just put them to amazing use. There's not much I'd really want to remove, but there is stuff I'd wanna add. Sadly, that means things would need removing. Here's what I'm thinking and tell me how strongly you (you know, the person who's actually played w/ the deck) agree or disagree. At a glance,...
I'd like to add:
- Another land. Has 23 been doing the trick? If yes, then disregard this bullet point. But from the perspective that this is a combo deck, 23 seems alright, but through the lens that we're playing a control role until we're ready to Poly or Gifts, seems like we'd reeeally wanna make sure we hit all our land drops.
- The 4th Gifts. Ironically you just declared intent to go down to 2, but seems like unless you replace it with the 4th Polymorph, you're slowing yourself down, no?
- A 2nd Unburial Rites. Tell me if I'm totally off, but in every Gifts list I see w/ a single Rites, I think about the scenarios where we Flashback reanimate a fatty (exiling Rites), but then the game goes on (albiet, likely to our advantage), and then we have another Gifts in hand. OR a flashback'd Rites gets countered or something. This may matter much less in the Polymorph deck, but in the general Gifts lists Ive been looking at, I keep wondering how often I'd wish for another copy of Rites.
- Some Black removal and/or a sweeper. The Damnations in the board may have the sweeper part covered, but maybe a Go For the Throat or the one, whos name escapes me, that kills non-Vampires/Werewolves/Boogeymen/PatentTrolls or something.
- Honorable mentions (as in probably not worth taking anything out for): The 4th Polymorph and Griselbrand
What could possibly come out if need be (note, I love the whole list, and since I've never played it, these come with a big "TELL ME IF I'M WRONG" stapled to them):
- The Remands. With all the discard and removal (especially if more is added), maybe put ample countermagic in the sideboard for matchups where our key stuff might get countered. Negates and Dispels? Seems like in this deck the best use of counters would be to push the Polys/Gifts/Rites through. Or have the Remands been key stall tactics?
- Talismans. I love acceleration as much as the next mage, but if we're controlling via discard and removal, might the 2 mana spent on the Talismans be better spent elsewhere? This is all just Theory Fighter so, if the Talismans have been super key and you'd play 8 if you could, kindly disregard. lol
- Proteus Staff. Unless the point of this is to have another Polymorph not named Polymorph for a Gifts package, why play this over the 4th Poly and pay 6 for a 4-mana efect? If that WAS the point, then nevermind I guess. lol
- Woulda' said the Lilis before I read your last post, but you made a good case for 'er, so nahh.
Anyway, the deck idea itself strikes me as really sweet. And it may be close to optimal as-is. There were just a few things that seemed like they'd be nice to add. Just a damn shame that for something to go in, something's gotta come out. And it's possible none of the above replacements would be worth it. But I had to at least express my wishlist. lol Whaddaya think?
-The Spreading Seas have been soo good! Replacing with Remand, like the Bitterblossoms suggested before, would probably be great too. I'll have to give em a shot. but the Seas have been killer in the (admittedly narrow) matchups Ive played.
-Agreed about the removal. Maybe will bring the Paths to 4 and change the remaining Oust to Dismember. The Detention Spheres are great though, they're like UW Maelstrom Pulses. 2 might be a better number, but I fear I'd miss the 3rd.
-Sun Titan... eh. lol
-You're prob right about the SB Cryptics. I had acceleration in the form of Talismans, but ditched em to see how it went. i rarely drew them and did OK. In the green versions, some Birds probably make sense, but for 2 mana, I'd rather have removal or a counter or Spreading Seas ready. Definitely up in the air, but control decks don't typically ramp. It seems top-heavy, but it really curves out at 4, sometimes 5 (Unburial Rites) as we don't much plan to hardcast the fatties unless we go really long. <shrug>
I got to play a nice chunk of games with the Esper list I posted above (shall we say the 4th C is clear?), and played some with the standard 4C w/ green we're used to, and I hate(read: love) to say it's been a bit of a blowout in favor of Esper (sample size withstanding). I had the idea to cut the 3 Talismans and replace them with more controling artifacts so the Thirsts still make sense. Put some thought into the sideboard plans and, voila, this thing is a machine! (note: The maindeck is setup more for vs aggro since that's what I face most often. If your meta is more control-ish, maindeck the counters and/or discard instead of the sweepers/removal)
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Spells:
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Path to Exile
2 Oust
2 Lingering Souls
2 Unburial Rites
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgement
4 Spreading Seas
3 Detention Sphere
Lands(24):
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Mystic Gate
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cryptic Command
2 Negate
2 Stony Silence
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Timely Reinforcements
The Spreading Seas have been awesome, as I figured they would be (that said, I still like Muten Yoshi's idea of turning them into Bitterblossoms, but I like the Seas version). The 3 main 'Rites targets each have their own utility. Elesh vs creature swarm, Inkwell vs spot removal, Sphinx when we need a life swing or when red is a threat and white is not. The Wurmcoil was a Baneslayer, and it may become one again, but figured better the artifact. The point is the lifegain, but if the flight and lower casting cost seems more important than artifact-edness and resiliency, I'll happily switch it back.
Spellskite and Metamorph are cheap but useful cards that can either turn a game around, or just be pitched to a Thirst. Note even outside the artifacts, we also have many things that want to be in the grave (most of which are fine in hand too), and even hitting our own guy with a sweeper if needed (rare, but could happen) still leaves them reanimate-able. Even when Thirst is as its worst, it's still pretty good. Like 'Scry 3, draw a card' but even better since we can get rid of things in our hand if need be. Note 3 different sweepers and 3 different removals for Gifts-ing in a pinch. And Snapcasters.
Versus aggro we have spot removal, sweepers, and lifegain. Timely Reinforcements can come in, and Elesh is already in.
Versus control we can board in discard and counters for the sweepers and removal, and we have a shrouded fattie (that can't be blocked post-Spreading Seas), Detention Sphere for annoying non-creature permanents ('walkers, RIPs, Cranial Platings, etc), and manlands when we go long. If they're on the 'one big creature as finisher' plan, we have the exact same creature, but ours only costs 3 mana (Metamorph).
Versus any combo that ends with a swift something-to-the-face, board in the Leylines, discard, and counters. Spreading Seas hurts Scapeshift. Depending on our Thirst-iness, Living End could benefit us more than them. What's burn gonna do vs Leylines, lifegain, and sweepers(for the burn-sticks). Even my favorite Seismic Loam keeps getting trumped by the damn Sphinx (sniff). We're probably soft to Dredgevine and too slow for Goryo. Can't win 'em all.
Stony Silence from the board actually only affects a single one of our artifacts, Spellskite. Not too heartbreaking. Though do note 'skite is also an 0/4 wall in a world where 3-toughness is all the rage. Relic from the board can be our own pseudo-DRS (tap ability), or the nuclear option that hurts us a bit too, but: a. if we're doing it, it hurts them more. b. we get a card for it, whoopie.
Definitely didn't expect to dig this deck as much as I do. Hopefully its early success hasn't been a fluke.
Also took out the 2nd Ghost Quarter and 4th Blackcleave Cliffs for an 8th fetch and 2nd Stomping Ground. Using fetchlands for our land drops when we can is just so huge (as is having good targets for them, naturally).
I'm kind of guessing I'm missing or forgetting something, but my deck has 3 Lilis because research told me it should. But almost every time I saw it I was like "ew." Before I swap er for some abrupt decays or something, is there a case for that being a mistake? (Hell, I had removed 3 countryside crushers, would love those back!)
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Heirarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 Unburial Rites
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Life From the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Path to Exile
1 Go For the Throat
And then 23 lands: 4 Verdant Catacombs 3 Marsh Flats 1 Misty Rainforest 2 Godless Shrine 2 Overgrown Tomb 1 Breeding Pool 1 Hallowed Fountain 1 Watery Grave 1 Temple Garden 1 Stirring Wildwood 1 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth 1 Gavony Township 1 Ghost Quarter 1 Forest 1 Swamp 1 Plains
I tend not to post exact sideboards since everyone's gonna have their own ideas how those should go, but some sort of IoK/T'seize suite seems like a good idea. Ditto some number of Negates and, at least 1 more Path, and since I also have Robots built up (and thus will face it), Creeping Corrosion looks fun to try for one expecting that.
Muten Yoshi: Heh, I bet Bitterblossom would be pretty sick here actually. Though I feel the same about Spreading Seas. If the rest seems good to go, both warrant a try imo. I'm just thrilled you think it's 4 cards away from good. lol
Darkshar: That deck looks pretty sweet, though it's also very different. I wasn't able to look at it for long, but will give it a thorough look.
Zefnar: Cutting green might NOT be correct. But for me, I just want to find the strongest ways to run Gifts-Rites-fatty, regardless of colors. I'm kind of obsessed w/ the idea lately, since I want to put one more deck together and all I know for sure about it is that it will have 4 Gifts and 2+ Rites. I wasn't trying to derail anything, just trying to think up whatever idea(s) could effectively house that combination.
Multiple things:
1. I saw it in some other well-performing Esper control lists during my research.
2. Almost every mana base in Modern is highly vulnerable to it. I could expound on this, but you've already thought of 12 format staple lands it hoses before this sentence ended.
3. It's cheap and replaces itself in the hand.
4. It synergizes nicely w/ Inkwell.
5. It's really annoying to face. To a true control player, this is relevant. lol
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Artifacts:
2 Talisman of Progress
1 Talisman of Dominance
Spells:
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Path to Exile
2 Oust
2 Lingering Souls
2 Unburial Rites
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Hallowed Burial
4 Spreading Seas
3 Detention Sphere
Lands(24):
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Mystic Gate
2 Tectonic Edge
Sideboard could have the discard, in line with what Counterb4lance is saying. Counters too, maybe a couple Spellskite, and I like the idea of 3 Leyline of Sanctity. But really the board is so meta specific, it's almost pointless to try to just make one up.
Counterb4lance, re the Talismans (Talismen? lol).. I'm not totally married to them, myself, but seemed like a good suggestion for some accelerant and to make Thirst for Knowledge smoother. But if the deck ended up better removing them for some discard or counters, or something else helpful like Timely Reinforcements I wouldn't be terribly heartbroken.
Edit: Thinking about it, the usually smart idea (in Modern in general) of Hallowed Burial may not be so good for us since it prevents the line where our sweep catches one of our own guys but then we reanimate it. Instead I'd probably want another Supreme Verdict, but I like the idea of 3 different sweepers for a Gifts pile. The mana is so Black-light, not sure if Damnation would be worth it.
I felt strongly about Inkwell and Sphinx as great reanimation targets already, but in a deck with 4 Thirst for Knowledge, it just feels even sweeter (with their being artifacts we actively WANT in the 'yard and all). I guess, since I don't have the sort of experience w/ Gifts decks I do w/, like, Assault Loam, I'm just not sure what the most important controlling factors are among discard, permission, board sweepability, spot removal, etc. The reanimation part is easy, but thriving before and after it looks to be the key.
Edit: I'm attempting to research some other Esper Control lists around the net just for comparison, ideas, etc. So, using that, your 2 lists above, and whatever else I stumble upon, I'll post something updated tonight. All I know is after you mentioned Thirst, I'm totally sold on both IT and the Inkwell/Sphinx (though if someone can refute all that, I'm always open to more knowledgable people telling me why I'm wrong, not being sarcastic).
Rough sketch could be something like,
25 lands including 2 Creeping Tar Pit and 1 or 2 Celestial Collonade.
4 Gifts Ungiven
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Unburial Rites 2 Inkwell Leviathan 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 Inquisition of Kozilek 2 Thoughtseize 3 Esper Charm
3 Mana Leak 2 Spell Snare
2 Path to Exile 1 Go For The Throat 1 Doom Blade
1 Supreme Verdict 1 Wrath of God 1 Damnation (or Day of Judgement)
And then with the last 4 slots either, like, 3 Lilianas and a 1-of, or something like 2 Remands and 2 Sphinx's Revelations.
Esper Charm is great as more discard, draw, and even an answer for RIP if needed. Even if the 'Esper Control' part is less optimal than the 4c stuff we're used to, the Inkwells (or is there a better shrouded/hexproof fattie?) seem to make our main wincon so much more resiliant than removal bait that leaves around a couple zombies, no? And the trample keeps the clock scary. With the other shells, the Elesh probably makes more sense than the Sphinx, though. He still might anyway, I just like the flight and lifelink.
U- Hard to play Gifts w/o U, among other things
B- No Rites out of hand, Lili, no discard, etc
W- Have to be able to Rites from the grave, plus no Lingering Souls nor Paths?
G- No Loam engines, Abruptness, Maelstromness, etc
R- No looting, no burn for removal, no Flame Jab recusion, etc
So if we haaaave to pick a color to go, Red seems to be the unfortunate choice, as it seems to be the only one even possible to let go of. But then I got to thinkin' about cards like Lightning Axe, Izzet Charm, and a surprise fatty below, and wondered if a burn-centric variant could work, begrudgingly ditching the Green. What do you guys think of something like this...?
note: None of the numbers below are set in stone, aside from, like, 4 Gifts. Just a sketch I think could work, please feel abundantly free to change around any numbers.
24 Lands - We've shown we can support 4 colors, and the below is actually pretty easy on mana (hell, we even get Marsh Flats and Scalding Tarns), so I'm just trying to sketch out the meat here. The landy crust should be easy if the below is deemed 'could-work-able.' So we'll see if you guys think this idea has any merit before I type up the lands. lol
4 Gifts Ungiven - duh
4 Snapcaster Mage - far more important than with most other builds, me thinks. As you'll see below...
4 Faithless Looting - major enabler, gets us gas and puts stuff in the yard
4 Izzet Charm - Crazy good here... another looter, removal, and even counter backup. All 3 modes at work here!
4 Lightning Axe - So you're saying if we enable one gameplan, Lightning Bolts do 5, enabling our other game plan? Deal. (edit: God dangit, I just re-read and noted Axe does not say "or player." *sigh* OK, maybe not 4 of these, and up the Bolts to 4 lol)
4 Lightning Helix - Usually you see 4 Bolts and 2 or 3 Helices, but given the low curve and likely relevance of life totals, this deck may call for a flip flop of said norm.
3 Lightning Bolt - This, and the above 2(3 actually) cards function as removal, but also a ton of burn to the dome. So this suite can serve aggressive AND controlling roles. Snapcaster gives it even MORE utility.
2 Unburial Rites - A lot of these Gifts decks run 1 copy, which I honestly don't get, but this version may even want 3, so we can pseudo-always threaten a big reanimation.
As for the Rites targets, Inferno Titan serves both of the deck's purposes, and was the original idea, but then I remembered an old buddy, Bogardan Hellkite. I'm honestly not sure what the exact fatty package should be(and am hoping you guys are), but ideas for somewhere in the 75 could include, in no partic order:
Inferno Titan, Bogardan Hellkite, Elesh Norn, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and anyone else you guys think of that might fit well here. Any other creatures that do damage or cause life loss upon ETB? Elesh probably has to be in the 75 for aggro matchups, but may wanna start in the board.
If we assume 3 fatties for Rites targets (it's gotta be 2, 3, or 4) and the above numbers, we're left with 4 slots. The sideboard is gonna be important here, as I think these slots (and some of the above when needed) should be transformational. I mentioned the Sphinx above for more life gain (flying and pro-2/5 ain't bad either), and for similar reasons think for the last slots, some number of Timely Reinforcements might make more sense than the usual Lingering Souls as an option. Likewise, rather than Pyroclasm, we may prefer some number of Volcanic Fallout if you want a sweeper since it advances our burn agenda. Or a couple Kitchen Finks rather than Lily Lily Legs Liliana (/Blazing Saddles reference) for durability.
We may instead want spot removal or counters too, but again, those could be put in the board, among other things.
Anyway, this was a rough sketch of what a Greenless Gifts build could look like, and there are definite potent synergies going on if the deck can:
a. Survive (hence plenty of removal, some life gain, even card draw)
b. Be scary when we reanimate
I kind of expect the idea to be shot down, and if it does suck, go for it. But aside from lacking Lili and some Loam recursion trickery, this seems like a much more focused variant as compared to all the 1-of silver-bullet lists I see. Not to say those are bad, not at all, just that representing 44 points of burn (edit: re-embarrassed about Axe mixtake. I don't think it kills the concept, though) without even including Snapcaster, Izzet Charm, or even the ETB fatties could be as-or-more threatening than, like, a 1-of Inquisition and 1-of Dismember somewhere in the 60. I also expect other cards exist I'm not thinking of or aware of that help even more (there's got to be some other big Red or Black "we both take a bunch of damage together" spell). Also note how little Black we'd need, which just makes our mana smoother.
Thoughts?
I was actually wondering if little mana dorks for acceleration might be good here, so I'm glad to see you contemplating BoP. It sucks to get them bolted, but is great for n-drops to become (n-1)-drops.
Say we live the dream and EOT Gifts for fattie+Rites, then on our turn reanimate our fattie. What do we have in mind vs the simple rebuttal of Path to Exile, or some other removal? I assume we don't just hold out on our big move till we have a grip of countermagic, and few are the decks playing no removal, even pre-board. I know some of our fatties give us nice value upon ETB, but sufficent to be called a wincon? To those with a lot of experience with these decks, does this not come up that often?
I'd like to add:
- Another land. Has 23 been doing the trick? If yes, then disregard this bullet point. But from the perspective that this is a combo deck, 23 seems alright, but through the lens that we're playing a control role until we're ready to Poly or Gifts, seems like we'd reeeally wanna make sure we hit all our land drops.
- The 4th Gifts. Ironically you just declared intent to go down to 2, but seems like unless you replace it with the 4th Polymorph, you're slowing yourself down, no?
- A 2nd Unburial Rites. Tell me if I'm totally off, but in every Gifts list I see w/ a single Rites, I think about the scenarios where we Flashback reanimate a fatty (exiling Rites), but then the game goes on (albiet, likely to our advantage), and then we have another Gifts in hand. OR a flashback'd Rites gets countered or something. This may matter much less in the Polymorph deck, but in the general Gifts lists Ive been looking at, I keep wondering how often I'd wish for another copy of Rites.
- Some Black removal and/or a sweeper. The Damnations in the board may have the sweeper part covered, but maybe a Go For the Throat or the one, whos name escapes me, that kills non-Vampires/Werewolves/Boogeymen/PatentTrolls or something.
- Honorable mentions (as in probably not worth taking anything out for): The 4th Polymorph and Griselbrand
What could possibly come out if need be (note, I love the whole list, and since I've never played it, these come with a big "TELL ME IF I'M WRONG" stapled to them):
- The Remands. With all the discard and removal (especially if more is added), maybe put ample countermagic in the sideboard for matchups where our key stuff might get countered. Negates and Dispels? Seems like in this deck the best use of counters would be to push the Polys/Gifts/Rites through. Or have the Remands been key stall tactics?
- Talismans. I love acceleration as much as the next mage, but if we're controlling via discard and removal, might the 2 mana spent on the Talismans be better spent elsewhere? This is all just Theory Fighter so, if the Talismans have been super key and you'd play 8 if you could, kindly disregard. lol
- Proteus Staff. Unless the point of this is to have another Polymorph not named Polymorph for a Gifts package, why play this over the 4th Poly and pay 6 for a 4-mana efect? If that WAS the point, then nevermind I guess. lol
- Woulda' said the Lilis before I read your last post, but you made a good case for 'er, so nahh.
Anyway, the deck idea itself strikes me as really sweet. And it may be close to optimal as-is. There were just a few things that seemed like they'd be nice to add. Just a damn shame that for something to go in, something's gotta come out. And it's possible none of the above replacements would be worth it. But I had to at least express my wishlist. lol Whaddaya think?