For future reference, what is the rule that applies to this case? Is it 202.2?
Yes. 202.2 is just sloppily worded, as are many rules. What it means is:
202.2. Text that refers to the object it's on by name means just that particular objectthe object with the ability corresponding to the text not any other duplicates of it, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects.
I was implying that megrim is in play along with a wheel of sun and moon or some other graveyard replacement card.
And I'm saying the interaction when they are is well understood. Wheel of Sun and Moon doesn't change whether a card is discarded. Megrim cares only if a card is discarded. What zones it ends up in is completely irrelevant.
I know the rules for protection and all older cards that specifically said "reduced to zero" have been changed to "prevented", but could a card be printed today with the wording "reduced to zero" and do exactly that to get around "cannot be prevented" clauses?
No. Nor could you say "deals 0 damage instead," since there is no such thing as "0 damage." But you could use "deals no damage instead" or "instead it doesn't."
"Prevent all damage that would be dealt to equipped creature."
Exactly the same, I swear. Since damage prevention is by definition a replacement effect.
Whatever gave you that idea? Prevention and replacement are two very different things. Both are subclasses of the kind of effects called "Prevention and Replacement effects," but they are not the same thing, and have different rules. For an example, Phytohydra can replace unpreventable damage.
I'm sorry, I crossed myself up. I meant that one in combination with this one:
402.8g A trigger condition that can trigger only in a zone other than the in-play zone triggers from that zone. Other trigger conditions of the same triggered ability may function in different zones.
If the card has to be discarded to trigger, the ability has to trigger from a zone it was discarded to. If it is hidden there, it can't trigger. What happened to the card in any other zone is completely irrelevant. Remember, it was a different object.
This then brings about questions to do with interactions between 'going to the graveyard' replacement effects and cards thet trigger off discards (i'm looking at you megrim)
No, it actually doesn't. Megrim doesn't trigger on discarding itself. But epeeguy did raise a valid point along these lines.
Originally Posted by Condor
The ability described by hidden text essentially cannot exist panglacial wurm
How do you know if a card is a Panglacial Wurm card, if the text is hidden? And since using that ability requires the card to be revealed, all players will see it. But PG actually breaks a lot of rules, and can't be used as an example for anything else.
What I'm saying is that if all players can't see the text of a card, you can't treat it as if it has an ability even if you know from past history that the ability must be printed there. It is only if it is revealed to all players at the time it applies (and that includes when one person can look at it, and must reveal it to all at that time), that it exists.
That being said, if Krosan Tusker were removed from the game instead of being put into the graveyard, then would the ability trigger? If so, does that mean the wording of 502.18c slightly off?
Depends on how strict Mark Gottlieb wants to be. IMO, that should never have been written in the rule, for this reason. Cards like Quagnoth do trigger under the situation you describe without specifically saying "graveyard" (for parinoid, that means that "discard" satisfies the requirements of 402.8g, regardless of where the card goes). So Cycling triggers would, too, without that clause. Since it only serves as a reminder, and doesn't say that it triggers "only" from the graveyard, I would say it works from whatever zone you discard it to.
I'd like to be able to explain why this answer is correct.
It's really quite simple. "What ability?"
Notice that the Tusker card has been revealed at least twice while playing its cycling ability: the first time is when you announce the cycling ability (see excerpt below), the second time is during the Wheel-modified discard event. However, these times are both before the discard event has been completed.
More important, as far as the game is concerned, is that the card you revealed those times was a different object than the one that is now in the library. The ability on the object that was revealed is not in the proper zone, and was not seen at the proper time, to trigger.
I would think that the only thing that matters is the existence and visibility of the ability in the game state in which the trigger condition is checked. The rule implies that there might be several moments at which one might want to check the visibility of the ability, and it's not exactly clear to me what those moments might be.
The only moment that is important is when the game looks for what triggered abilities exist. The ability described by hidden text essentially cannot exist.
My understanding is that it means "right before the event, during the event, or right after the event".
If the object with the ability is revealed then, sure. But it ceases to be the same object when it moves. And it would be important if there were a copy effect, or an ability granting/removing effect, on the object before it moved. Whether or not you can "see" the card before it moved has to be irrelevant, because it might "look" different even if you can see it afterwards.
In short, you can't try to second guess the intent of the rules here. You have to go by what they say.
Invictus gets +X/+X, where X is the greatest power among creatures opponents have controlled this turn.
The basic idea is to avoid the situation where Invictus kills the creature that's giving him the bonus, thus dropping his toughness and causing him to die belatedly to combat damage. Ideas?
You mean this to be a static ability, right? That point seems to be what Glitch is missing. What it does, as worded, is
It starts with a list of all creatures currently in play.
It removes any that have not been controlled by an opponent this turn.
It looks at the current power of each of those creatures.
A sign in a bar said "Free Beer Tomorrow." I kept coming back, but never got any free beer.
That is what your effect would do (well, it's actually backwards More like "Pay for your beer tomorrow.") The resolution of a spell is not an event that can be replaced. What your effect woudl do is modify the rules for when effects end. Each turn, it would say "Is this effect trying to end this turn? Hah! make it end next turn." Each effect would continue to get delayed while the card was in play.
Funny thing, I always thought you didn't need priority to unmorph a creature. The fault in my logic was that "turning up any time" means you can respond to split second.
The single most common class of errors in learning Magic's rules, is when people confuse cause with effect. Priority only means "this player is now allowed to take optional actions described by the rules and/or objects he controls." It does not mean anything about the stack, or responses.
But the effect of having priority - and specifically of the fact that all players get priority before things on the stack resolve - is that you can respond to those spells and abilities that other people put on the stack.
Turning up a morph is an optional action "described by the rules and/or objects you control." You can only do it when you have priority. It just doesn't go on the stack. But that isn't why you can do it when Split Second is in effect, that's because Split Second only prevents you from "playing spells and abilities." Turning up a morph isn't either, so you can do it.
Now, I'd like to see if this card is possible.
Interruption MicUUU
Instant
Interruption (You don't need priority to play this spell. You can play it any time you like.)
Counter target spell or ability.
The reason priority exists is so that only one player is allowed to do something at any one point in time. Otherwise, you get arguments about (1) Who can go first, and (2) Who must go first. That one player fits both at any one time is absolutely required. You can't do this.
Well, I think it was largely created to recognize what already happens among the players and how they play, even in tournament settings.
Recognizing a shortcut by pointing out what required steps are being glossed over, and actually assuming those steps are not required, are different things. The rules of Magic require that players be allowed to respond to a spell or activated ability. That right cannot be taken away. And by implementing their guidelines, the DCI has given some people the mistaken idea that asking for the step to be recognized is the same as asking for the step to exist.
You are given priority in the situation I was talking about. You are not "asking" for it, it is a step where you must make a decision.
<Sigh.>
That's because the "system" the DCI seems to have instituted does not actually follow the rules. They have created an incomplete protocol of shortcuts, that can have the appearance of violating the actual protocol of the priority system.
I like to play head games with my opponents. for example say "response" then (literally) a second or two later say nevermind. Would this be against the "delay rule?"
That depends on what you think "response" means when stated like this. There is no rule that defines it. It sounds like you are using it to create a pause between your opponent announcing a spell, and resolving that spell, where you are contemplating something like a counter, or another effect that will lessen the impact of yor opponent's spell. Since, but the actual rules of priority but maybe not the DCI's protocol, your opponent is required to pass priority to you there. Not only can you do what you suggest (If I'm reading it right), you probably should do it sometimes.
But this might be more clear if, instead of just saying "response," you say "Wait a moment, I may have a response. .... no, I guess I won't do that yet. I pass." Just don't pause too long (i.e., "affect the pace of the game"). Any judge who calls you for stalling by doing what I described, no matter how often you do it, is abusing his or her authority and is not understanding how the rules of Magic apply to that situation.
However, you can't request priority and then do nothing with it. If you decide not to do anything, the game is backed up to the point before you had priority.
That is different from what I described. That rule is for requesting priority while your opponent (the Active Player) is still contemplating whether he will play something. You can't say "Let me do something while you are thinkng" and then pass, causing the game to proceed past the point where where your opponent was going to play something.
You always have the right to request priority before your opponent lets something he just played resolve.
If:A spell or ability identifies a specific object at time T1.
That object leaves whatever zone it was identified in at time T2.
The spell or ability asks a question about what is clearly the same object at time T3.
Then the game state at time T2 is used to answer the question about the object. There are no limitations on what that quesiton can be about, except that that it has to be about the object itself. It doesn't apply to the case you linked to, because the Jitte's trigger condition only cares what it is equipped to when the damage is dealt - that is when it "identifies" another object.
But what if you have a Future Sight out? Will that not serve as an infinate tutor?
If nothing has been done to reveal any cards that are currently in the library to a player, then for each activation of your ability, the player can tap the top card and say "shuffled."
But if any cards are known, as with Future Sight in play, a physical shuffle is required.
And on your teammate's turn?
It works, but (1) should be targeted, and (2) might be easier to understand as two abilites, with "play only" clauses.
To answer all parts of the question, stated and implied:
Yes, you can use Grafted Wargear's equip ability, targeting the same Cephalid Illusionist.
- Yes, that will trigger Cephalid Illusionist's ability. You will mill cards.
- No, the equip ability will not "fizzle" (by the modern definition of the word).
- Yes, the Cephalid Illusionist will be equiped after the ability resolved. BUT
- No, the equipment did not move.
- No, Grafted Wargear's ability will not trigger. Grafted Wargear will remain in play.
- Neither would an ability similar to Bramble Elemental's, but for equipment, trigger.
- No, Grafted Wargear does nto receive a new timestamp.
Yes. 202.2 is just sloppily worded, as are many rules. What it means is:
And I'm saying the interaction when they are is well understood. Wheel of Sun and Moon doesn't change whether a card is discarded. Megrim cares only if a card is discarded. What zones it ends up in is completely irrelevant.
No. Nor could you say "deals 0 damage instead," since there is no such thing as "0 damage." But you could use "deals no damage instead" or "instead it doesn't."
Whatever gave you that idea? Prevention and replacement are two very different things. Both are subclasses of the kind of effects called "Prevention and Replacement effects," but they are not the same thing, and have different rules. For an example, Phytohydra can replace unpreventable damage.
I'm sorry, I crossed myself up. I meant that one in combination with this one:
If the card has to be discarded to trigger, the ability has to trigger from a zone it was discarded to. If it is hidden there, it can't trigger. What happened to the card in any other zone is completely irrelevant. Remember, it was a different object.
No, it actually doesn't. Megrim doesn't trigger on discarding itself. But epeeguy did raise a valid point along these lines.
How do you know if a card is a Panglacial Wurm card, if the text is hidden? And since using that ability requires the card to be revealed, all players will see it. But PG actually breaks a lot of rules, and can't be used as an example for anything else.
What I'm saying is that if all players can't see the text of a card, you can't treat it as if it has an ability even if you know from past history that the ability must be printed there. It is only if it is revealed to all players at the time it applies (and that includes when one person can look at it, and must reveal it to all at that time), that it exists.
Depends on how strict Mark Gottlieb wants to be. IMO, that should never have been written in the rule, for this reason. Cards like Quagnoth do trigger under the situation you describe without specifically saying "graveyard" (for parinoid, that means that "discard" satisfies the requirements of 402.8g, regardless of where the card goes). So Cycling triggers would, too, without that clause. Since it only serves as a reminder, and doesn't say that it triggers "only" from the graveyard, I would say it works from whatever zone you discard it to.
You reveal the Tusker card from your hand, and discard it to the bottom of your library where it remains unseen. You draw a card. Nothing else.
It's really quite simple. "What ability?"
More important, as far as the game is concerned, is that the card you revealed those times was a different object than the one that is now in the library. The ability on the object that was revealed is not in the proper zone, and was not seen at the proper time, to trigger.
The only moment that is important is when the game looks for what triggered abilities exist. The ability described by hidden text essentially cannot exist.
But it can't, unless covered by the specific situations listed in 410.10d. Guerrilla Tactics won't trigger, either.
If the object with the ability is revealed then, sure. But it ceases to be the same object when it moves. And it would be important if there were a copy effect, or an ability granting/removing effect, on the object before it moved. Whether or not you can "see" the card before it moved has to be irrelevant, because it might "look" different even if you can see it afterwards.
In short, you can't try to second guess the intent of the rules here. You have to go by what they say.
You mean this to be a static ability, right? That point seems to be what Glitch is missing. What it does, as worded, is
It starts with a list of all creatures currently in play.
- It removes any that have not been controlled by an opponent this turn.
- It looks at the current power of each of those creatures.
- And picks the biggest number there.
Not what you seem to want.Because that is the list of characteristics.
You are making one of the fundamental flaws in logic, an improper inversion of an "if-then" statement.is not the same as
That is what your effect would do (well, it's actually backwards More like "Pay for your beer tomorrow.") The resolution of a spell is not an event that can be replaced. What your effect woudl do is modify the rules for when effects end. Each turn, it would say "Is this effect trying to end this turn? Hah! make it end next turn." Each effect would continue to get delayed while the card was in play.
The single most common class of errors in learning Magic's rules, is when people confuse cause with effect. Priority only means "this player is now allowed to take optional actions described by the rules and/or objects he controls." It does not mean anything about the stack, or responses.
But the effect of having priority - and specifically of the fact that all players get priority before things on the stack resolve - is that you can respond to those spells and abilities that other people put on the stack.
Turning up a morph is an optional action "described by the rules and/or objects you control." You can only do it when you have priority. It just doesn't go on the stack. But that isn't why you can do it when Split Second is in effect, that's because Split Second only prevents you from "playing spells and abilities." Turning up a morph isn't either, so you can do it.
The reason priority exists is so that only one player is allowed to do something at any one point in time. Otherwise, you get arguments about (1) Who can go first, and (2) Who must go first. That one player fits both at any one time is absolutely required. You can't do this.
Recognizing a shortcut by pointing out what required steps are being glossed over, and actually assuming those steps are not required, are different things. The rules of Magic require that players be allowed to respond to a spell or activated ability. That right cannot be taken away. And by implementing their guidelines, the DCI has given some people the mistaken idea that asking for the step to be recognized is the same as asking for the step to exist.
You are given priority in the situation I was talking about. You are not "asking" for it, it is a step where you must make a decision.
<Sigh.>
That's because the "system" the DCI seems to have instituted does not actually follow the rules. They have created an incomplete protocol of shortcuts, that can have the appearance of violating the actual protocol of the priority system.
That depends on what you think "response" means when stated like this. There is no rule that defines it. It sounds like you are using it to create a pause between your opponent announcing a spell, and resolving that spell, where you are contemplating something like a counter, or another effect that will lessen the impact of yor opponent's spell. Since, but the actual rules of priority but maybe not the DCI's protocol, your opponent is required to pass priority to you there. Not only can you do what you suggest (If I'm reading it right), you probably should do it sometimes.
But this might be more clear if, instead of just saying "response," you say "Wait a moment, I may have a response. .... no, I guess I won't do that yet. I pass." Just don't pause too long (i.e., "affect the pace of the game"). Any judge who calls you for stalling by doing what I described, no matter how often you do it, is abusing his or her authority and is not understanding how the rules of Magic apply to that situation.
(I won't comment on the blocking situation.)
That is different from what I described. That rule is for requesting priority while your opponent (the Active Player) is still contemplating whether he will play something. You can't say "Let me do something while you are thinkng" and then pass, causing the game to proceed past the point where where your opponent was going to play something.
You always have the right to request priority before your opponent lets something he just played resolve.
A spell or ability identifies a specific object at time T1.
- That object leaves whatever zone it was identified in at time T2.
- The spell or ability asks a question about what is clearly the same object at time T3.
Then the game state at time T2 is used to answer the question about the object. There are no limitations on what that quesiton can be about, except that that it has to be about the object itself. It doesn't apply to the case you linked to, because the Jitte's trigger condition only cares what it is equipped to when the damage is dealt - that is when it "identifies" another object.But if any cards are known, as with Future Sight in play, a physical shuffle is required.
And that's why Soldier of Fortune, Boggart Forager, and Lantern of Insight all have non-negligible activation costs.