I worked up this long response to you and then re-read all of the other posts in this thread and determined one very real issue. You don't want anyone to offer you criticism of your deck. You have convinced yourself that it is the best possible way to run Caw Blade (even though national results clearly show that U/W is better) and aren't open to the thought that you might be wrong, even when others have tried to speak with you about it.
I would say that while I no longer view Mike Flores as a "relevant" magic writer, you'll notice that the two decks that he points to are U/W variants. Mirran Crusader is fine as a creature if you're running an aggro/control list, which these are (notice the lack of DoJ main).
So that being said, I will as I promised you dissappear from this thread. I will not allow myself to be egged on by an obvious troll.
Good luck with your deck, i hope it continues to work out for you in FNM's and Game Days.
As I suspected, you share one more characteristic with that guy you brought up - you say that you're gonna bugger off, then you don't. He never threw in the word "honestly" though.
Make that two more... you're both confused about the aggro aspect of HawkBlade.
Actually, you're pretty much that guy all over again.
Honest people will not fail to notice that there is some good, constructive criticism in this thread, and that it has lead to good, productive discussion.
Also:
* UG BeastBlade top 8ed UK Nats
* Flores "pointed to" it
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What I find funny about this is that I remember having arguments with people about whether squadron hawk was a tier 1 card back in October-January...ah, those were the days. Squadron hawk is a strange card though, in that it feels somewhat underwhelming on its own, but surprisingly often virtually every card in your deck makes it much better.
What I find even funnier is seeing these arguments happen all over again after the ban.
i like the idea of running 3 war in place of 3 feast, since this is an aggroish build, It just might get you there before other decks are able to stabilize. I would only run it if i was running Miran crusader in instead of blade splicer, for the simple facts that double strike with war and peace seems a lot more relevant in this deck than double strike with feast and famine, and already having pro black and green is nice. having pro every color other than blue seems pretty brutal, although right now my biggest threat has been into the roil. losing their life in cards in hand twice while gaining cards in your hand in life seems a lot more relevant than untap your lands twice... although discarding two cards for them can be BRUTAL.
Lots of truth in this paragraph. A lot of testing has shown me that MC+SoWaP is brutal indeed.
Considering that the person you brought up was involved in pages of contention, I have to question your motives in bringing him up again at this point. You actually sound a lot like him, particularly the way you say things, but don't back them up at all. For example...
Please don't take what I'm about to say as an attack. I wish you would really look back at some of Wild Mage's earlier posts to you before it degenerated into a urinating contest because he was trying to give you some good advice.
There is something to be said for changing the synnergy of what the deck wants to do by adding green for Beast Within (which I disagree with you when you state that it's "the best removal spell", it's not by a long shot.) I agree that Oblivion Ring is better right now then the Beast Within with what you normally want to get rid of.
Here. Your beliefs are of some interest. We might find that we would agree, if you would give us one small reason to do so, perhaps by offering some reason or logic to support those beliefs.
I also wholly disagree with running War and Peace over Feast and Famine. I understand why you're doing it, because you want to provide protection against most colors, i get it, but the reason Feast and Famine is so good is that you can be overly aggressive and then be able to untap and enter control mode on their turn.
I understand why people run SoFaF of course. I've seen folks tap out planning to connect and untap many times, then get stymied by oh, say Condemn. But that's not why I run SoWaP. I run it because it ends games more quickly, and because my curve is already low enough to operate with the mana I have without untapping.
I don't want to argue with you and if your response degenerates into that, I honestly will simply just dissappear from the thread, but there is some very constructive criticism.
Can I take that as a sincere offer? If so, please, disappear.
On a completely unrelated note, but in the same post because some folks have sticks up there about double posting...
Flores article this week is titled "Unusual Choices and the National Championships". He talks about both Dunn's deck and Hannah's.
He talks about Mirran Crusader. He pairs a card image of Crusader with not Sword of Feast and Famine, but with Sword of War and Peace, despite Hannah's 2-1 split favoring SoFaF. We should take that as Flores being aware which sword creates the most bomb combo with Mirran Crusader, nothing more, nothing less.
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Don't I though? I think it's about par for the course though. The question isn't whether you get completely worthless posts, that's a given, its whether you get some worthwhile posts in between.
Baloth probably fills that role pretty well against most red decks, it's 4 toughness making it cost cards to remove, and a solid blocker until it is removed. Tempered Steel mostly flies over Baloth, but then that's what the SB Creeping Corrosion are for.
Vamps shouldn't have much trouble dealing with Obstinate Baloth, with as many as 8 black removal spells in the main. Vamps are the biggest hole I can see in both these decks' game plans.
Timely Reinforcements doesn't usually win games, it much more often just keeps you from losing games. And it doesn't even do that so well by itself. It comes pretty close against RDW, but most decks bring in more cards than just TR against RDW.
I side in TR against Tempered Steel, but it just buys me some time. If I haven't drawn DoJ, or at least a couple of Condemn, I'll probably still lose.
TR tokens can block and kill a lot of Vampires. A single Baloth of course is pretty easy for Vamps to deal with. But even with TR, I'll most likely still need to see DoJ and maybe a Condemn or 2 to win.
UG doesn't have a lot of the good white cards of course, and this hurts a range of matchups, including RDW and other aggro. Beast is the only removal other than Nature's Claim and such. Batterskull can be helpful, more so with ramp. Claim and Creeping Corrosion make the Tempered Steel matchup better, probably favorable, and give the deck its only sweepers. But these don't necesarily help against other aggro, the Corrosion at least.
I hate Hannah's sideboard. Firewalker should definitely be Timely Reinforcements. TR is good against every aggro deck, and more. I'm not impressed with Solemn Offering either. Or any of the singletons, other than Inkmoth.
Interestingly enough, both Dunn and Hannah lost in the top 8 to our arch-nemesis, although in this case he was in the main deck of BR Vampires. UG is going to have trouble with the vampire assault, although Vampires is common enough that UG Blade should have Gravitational Shift in the side. Hannah's sideboard choices are the whole problem with his vampire matchup. The landfall reanimator is going to be a problem for both of these decks, as they have 1 Oring between them, no Condemn, no Surgical Extraction, not even any Timely Reinforcements, and as I mentioned, no Gravitational Shift.
Some good ideas in the main decks, but possibly not enough testing with the sideboards.
I usually like the 2 and 1 sword split, but in a deck like the UK nationals "Cobra Blade" list, I think I would just run four F&F's.
F&F does fit right into the ramp theme. 4 you think? I don't know why he only runs 3 Preordain, but Garruk could be a powerful draw engine. I haven't really tested him though.
This no-double post rule seems pretty awkward to me.
I did see that. Good stuff. I like this deck, and it's good to see other people trying out some of the same ideas. I don't like a 2-1 split of swords though. Early on I actually tried 3/3, maybe even 4/4 at one point. I still felt like I always had the less optimal sword for the matchup.
Been messing around with it. Recently got into playing standard, so I might not be doing everything right.
4x Hero of Bladehold
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Mana Leak
4x Squadron Hawks
4x Blade Splicer
1x Sun Titan
2x Day of Judgement
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Gideon
3x Sword of Feast and Famine
4x Preordain
Rest are the usual collonades/inkmoth/seachrome/glacial fortress/Tec Edge land base. 27 lands total. Don't have the exact numbers since I dont have the deck with me at the moment.
4 Timely Reinforcements
2 Day of Judgment
4 Condemn
4 Flashfreeze
1 Dispel
I'd suggest this sideboard. Condemn and Day will help you against TS far more than Ratchet Bomb and Divine Offering. Condemn has much wider application than Celestial Purge. You already have 3 Oring in the main. You still have multiple ways to deal with those pesky Bloodghast that everyone is worried about.
The Flashfreeze and Dispel are for other decks, and you'll need to decide what to do with those 5 slots, if you aren't worried about Valakut/RDW. You are light on MD counters for Valakut.
BeastBlade has had a very strong showing this weekend, between me and you Josh. I went 4-0 today. This was the second (third? I can't remember now) time running the deck, and Beast Within did more to prove itself a standout card. My opponents complained a bit about Mirran Crusader being a problem, and about the swords, and the hawks, but all of them complained about Beast Within the most.
I face a lot of aggro in my meta, so I pre-sideboard for aggro as follows:
-3 Spell Pierce +4 Condemn
-1 Beast Within
R1: A bad RG deck. Game 1 was notable for my keeping a hand with Condemn, Beast Within, and lands. I drew the other 2 BW within the first few turns. BW was most of my game plan, well into the mid to late game, before I drew other cards to speak of. I can't think of anything else of interest.
R2: Tempered Steel. Game 2 he got down 2 TS, and I took some heavy hits before I could Day. He followed up with Vault Scurge, and got as high as 35. A sworded up Mirran Crusader knocked him down to 18, and I was able to block just long enough to drop and equip the second sword and swing for 20.
R3: RDW. G1 I saw him miss his 3rd land drop, and gave him a beast and put him to 1 mountain. I condemned the beast in his next attack phase. He got back up to 3 lands, but I was just able to beat him to death in time with manlands. In this game it would have really hurt me to not have the Stirring Wildwood. Game 2 I took out all BW, then saw his Shrine for the first time. That was wishful thinking I guess. He won that game. G3 he left himself without 3 mana, and I swapped him a beast for his Shrine. After that I deal with the beast, his only dude, and drew a string of counters, beating down with manlands again to get there.
R4: UB Infect. This was really close last weekend. I played it super tight today, and kept him from getting very close to 10 poison in either of 2 games. BW was nuts, killing Phyrexian Crusader and Inkmoth Nexus and his only U land in game 3.
Fortunately I didn't run into any Bloodghasts today.
So far, every time I play BeastBlade I find new reasons to like it, particularly those 4 green cards I splash for.
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Both of those posts were informing you that I'm not teaching you the game. The first one was because I was explaining that I'm not going to waste my energy to teach you, the 2nd one was as you intended with the quote. Thanks for continuing to be inept at reading comprehension though, as again, you never let me down.
The contradiction involves you claiming that discussion with me is a waste of time and energy, but continuing to engage in said discussion. And of course your new story that you actually like it.
You're getting boring. Boring and stupid is way worse than just stupid.
On the topic, I would see beast within as more of sideboard card. Against a lot of decks o-ring is basically equivalent without the 3/3. Against green (and maybe white) decks with easy access to enchantment removal I think beast within is really powerful. I know for a fact that getting my tempered steel beast withined is insanely annoying, so I can see the appeal.
I didn't finish that last thought. I want Beast Within against quite a few of the more popular decks; Tempered Steel, Valakut, HawkBlade (for swords and any Gideons that slip through), RDW for Shrines and Koth, Pyromancer's Ascesnsion, etc.
Oring would work against many of those (the ones without Into the roil or Nature's Claim or their own Orings). But once I started playing Beast I experienced how much more flexible it is as an instant. You don't have to take a big hit before you kill the Tempered Steel, for example. And the fact that you can punish bad land draws is a pretty big bonus.
Guys, this thread has completely devolved into your argument against each other. It is almost definitely healthier for discussion of the archetype if you guys just take this to pm's. It's impossible to get anything done with all of the ad hominem attacking going on, and I think the idea is certainly interesting enough to discuss on it's own merits.
On the topic, I would see beast within as more of sideboard card. Against a lot of decks o-ring is basically equivalent without the 3/3. Against green (and maybe white) decks with easy access to enchantment removal I think beast within is really powerful. I know for a fact that getting my tempered steel beast withined is insanely annoying, so I can see the appeal.
Valakut is the deck that has killed Orings against me the most. They pack more enchantment hate than most decks. I was seeing lists with revoke Existence on forums, but I don't think it will see wide play in HawkBlade. Any of the white decks could become a problem as soon as they find a need.
I played a similar deck last night (caw, with beast within, some BoP, and a skinshifter), and I have to say, the deck plays out pretty smooth. I like the rouge factor that the green splash has. I went 5-1, losing to valakut due to me keeping some weird hands.
Congrats! Skinshifter eh? Interesting. Could you post your list?
I just don't see any point in talking to someone who not only can't keep up in a conversation, but then only argues with people who don't completely agree with them. It doesn't get anywhere.
Thanks for being cute and trying to pull me back into this discussion though sir. You're a laugh a minute.
If that's what I was trying to do, I certainly succeeded. "Waste my mental energy", "not worth the time or effort"... and yet here you are. And not a hint of irony.
You talk, but you back it up with nothing, and you demonstrate the exact opposite. It might be funny, if it wasn't so sad.
1. You're already arguing against this person for simply stating the obvious. Your statement of "I hope neither of us wants to argue about an argument." is invalid, because as I just said, you're already arguing.
2. This is just more proof that I was correct in my statements that you're just looking to argue in regards to anything that anyone posts contrarily to your thoughts within this thread.
What I did there was diffuse an argument. The proof it provides is that your approach to debate is fundamentally dishonest. It does prove one other thing... and it is quite gratifying to know that you're still stinging so badly from your last thrashing.
As I suspected, you share one more characteristic with that guy you brought up - you say that you're gonna bugger off, then you don't. He never threw in the word "honestly" though.
Make that two more... you're both confused about the aggro aspect of HawkBlade.
Actually, you're pretty much that guy all over again.
Honest people will not fail to notice that there is some good, constructive criticism in this thread, and that it has lead to good, productive discussion.
Also:
* UG BeastBlade top 8ed UK Nats
* Flores "pointed to" it
.
What I find even funnier is seeing these arguments happen all over again after the ban.
Lots of truth in this paragraph. A lot of testing has shown me that MC+SoWaP is brutal indeed.
I don't think you need Firewalker on top of Timely. But why not try SoWaP MD?
Here.
Here. Better than what? Better results than what?
Here. Your beliefs are of some interest. We might find that we would agree, if you would give us one small reason to do so, perhaps by offering some reason or logic to support those beliefs.
I understand why people run SoFaF of course. I've seen folks tap out planning to connect and untap many times, then get stymied by oh, say Condemn. But that's not why I run SoWaP. I run it because it ends games more quickly, and because my curve is already low enough to operate with the mana I have without untapping.
Can I take that as a sincere offer? If so, please, disappear.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
On a completely unrelated note, but in the same post because some folks have sticks up there about double posting...
Flores article this week is titled "Unusual Choices and the National Championships". He talks about both Dunn's deck and Hannah's.
He talks about Mirran Crusader. He pairs a card image of Crusader with not Sword of Feast and Famine, but with Sword of War and Peace, despite Hannah's 2-1 split favoring SoFaF. We should take that as Flores being aware which sword creates the most bomb combo with Mirran Crusader, nothing more, nothing less.
.
Baloth probably fills that role pretty well against most red decks, it's 4 toughness making it cost cards to remove, and a solid blocker until it is removed. Tempered Steel mostly flies over Baloth, but then that's what the SB Creeping Corrosion are for.
Vamps shouldn't have much trouble dealing with Obstinate Baloth, with as many as 8 black removal spells in the main. Vamps are the biggest hole I can see in both these decks' game plans.
Timely Reinforcements doesn't usually win games, it much more often just keeps you from losing games. And it doesn't even do that so well by itself. It comes pretty close against RDW, but most decks bring in more cards than just TR against RDW.
I side in TR against Tempered Steel, but it just buys me some time. If I haven't drawn DoJ, or at least a couple of Condemn, I'll probably still lose.
TR tokens can block and kill a lot of Vampires. A single Baloth of course is pretty easy for Vamps to deal with. But even with TR, I'll most likely still need to see DoJ and maybe a Condemn or 2 to win.
Some thoughts on closer analysis:
UG doesn't have a lot of the good white cards of course, and this hurts a range of matchups, including RDW and other aggro. Beast is the only removal other than Nature's Claim and such. Batterskull can be helpful, more so with ramp. Claim and Creeping Corrosion make the Tempered Steel matchup better, probably favorable, and give the deck its only sweepers. But these don't necesarily help against other aggro, the Corrosion at least.
I hate Hannah's sideboard. Firewalker should definitely be Timely Reinforcements. TR is good against every aggro deck, and more. I'm not impressed with Solemn Offering either. Or any of the singletons, other than Inkmoth.
Interestingly enough, both Dunn and Hannah lost in the top 8 to our arch-nemesis, although in this case he was in the main deck of BR Vampires. UG is going to have trouble with the vampire assault, although Vampires is common enough that UG Blade should have Gravitational Shift in the side. Hannah's sideboard choices are the whole problem with his vampire matchup. The landfall reanimator is going to be a problem for both of these decks, as they have 1 Oring between them, no Condemn, no Surgical Extraction, not even any Timely Reinforcements, and as I mentioned, no Gravitational Shift.
Some good ideas in the main decks, but possibly not enough testing with the sideboards.
F&F does fit right into the ramp theme. 4 you think? I don't know why he only runs 3 Preordain, but Garruk could be a powerful draw engine. I haven't really tested him though.
This no-double post rule seems pretty awkward to me.
I did see that. Good stuff. I like this deck, and it's good to see other people trying out some of the same ideas. I don't like a 2-1 split of swords though. Early on I actually tried 3/3, maybe even 4/4 at one point. I still felt like I always had the less optimal sword for the matchup.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
4 Timely Reinforcements
2 Day of Judgment
4 Condemn
4 Flashfreeze
1 Dispel
I'd suggest this sideboard. Condemn and Day will help you against TS far more than Ratchet Bomb and Divine Offering. Condemn has much wider application than Celestial Purge. You already have 3 Oring in the main. You still have multiple ways to deal with those pesky Bloodghast that everyone is worried about.
The Flashfreeze and Dispel are for other decks, and you'll need to decide what to do with those 5 slots, if you aren't worried about Valakut/RDW. You are light on MD counters for Valakut.
I face a lot of aggro in my meta, so I pre-sideboard for aggro as follows:
-3 Spell Pierce +4 Condemn
-1 Beast Within
R1: A bad RG deck. Game 1 was notable for my keeping a hand with Condemn, Beast Within, and lands. I drew the other 2 BW within the first few turns. BW was most of my game plan, well into the mid to late game, before I drew other cards to speak of. I can't think of anything else of interest.
R2: Tempered Steel. Game 2 he got down 2 TS, and I took some heavy hits before I could Day. He followed up with Vault Scurge, and got as high as 35. A sworded up Mirran Crusader knocked him down to 18, and I was able to block just long enough to drop and equip the second sword and swing for 20.
R3: RDW. G1 I saw him miss his 3rd land drop, and gave him a beast and put him to 1 mountain. I condemned the beast in his next attack phase. He got back up to 3 lands, but I was just able to beat him to death in time with manlands. In this game it would have really hurt me to not have the Stirring Wildwood. Game 2 I took out all BW, then saw his Shrine for the first time. That was wishful thinking I guess. He won that game. G3 he left himself without 3 mana, and I swapped him a beast for his Shrine. After that I deal with the beast, his only dude, and drew a string of counters, beating down with manlands again to get there.
R4: UB Infect. This was really close last weekend. I played it super tight today, and kept him from getting very close to 10 poison in either of 2 games. BW was nuts, killing Phyrexian Crusader and Inkmoth Nexus and his only U land in game 3.
Fortunately I didn't run into any Bloodghasts today.
So far, every time I play BeastBlade I find new reasons to like it, particularly those 4 green cards I splash for.
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The contradiction involves you claiming that discussion with me is a waste of time and energy, but continuing to engage in said discussion. And of course your new story that you actually like it.
You're getting boring. Boring and stupid is way worse than just stupid.
I didn't finish that last thought. I want Beast Within against quite a few of the more popular decks; Tempered Steel, Valakut, HawkBlade (for swords and any Gideons that slip through), RDW for Shrines and Koth, Pyromancer's Ascesnsion, etc.
Oring would work against many of those (the ones without Into the roil or Nature's Claim or their own Orings). But once I started playing Beast I experienced how much more flexible it is as an instant. You don't have to take a big hit before you kill the Tempered Steel, for example. And the fact that you can punish bad land draws is a pretty big bonus.
Double posts merged and warned.
You may not be sharp enough to see that you are contradicting yourself with every post, but you can be sure that everyone else sees it.
How did shifter work for you? Were you short a 4th birds? did any other cards stand out?
Thanks for your interest in a productive thread.
Valakut is the deck that has killed Orings against me the most. They pack more enchantment hate than most decks. I was seeing lists with revoke Existence on forums, but I don't think it will see wide play in HawkBlade. Any of the white decks could become a problem as soon as they find a need.
Triplepost merged and warned.
-Sene
Congrats! Skinshifter eh? Interesting. Could you post your list?
Wow. Again no hint of irony. You started claiming that "teaching me the game" was a waste of your time pages ago. And yet here you are. Still.
So you're just going to tuck tail at the end of every post now?
Case in point. Well demonstrated!
And yet you're back for more eh?
If that's what I was trying to do, I certainly succeeded. "Waste my mental energy", "not worth the time or effort"... and yet here you are. And not a hint of irony.
You talk, but you back it up with nothing, and you demonstrate the exact opposite. It might be funny, if it wasn't so sad.
What I did there was diffuse an argument. The proof it provides is that your approach to debate is fundamentally dishonest. It does prove one other thing... and it is quite gratifying to know that you're still stinging so badly from your last thrashing.