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  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Quote from wrduardo
    You bring up a lot of good point in this post in a very respectful way. I guess it is just a different way of seeing this deck IS the truth...

    When you have 3x Vendilion, people running Ajani, and things like that, it just seems so controly to me...

    I can totally see the value in cutting things like cryptic for quicker options, I just like the versatility of cryptic to let it go so easily...

    And while people think that running cryptic or not running cryptic is just a taste or metagame thing, I think it is the biggest difference that warrants discussion in competitive metagame...It totally speaks to the different flavors of this deck and is a huuuuuuuge difference positively or negatively depending on perspective.

    The future of this deck will be do you go more control or less, and Ajani/Cryptic versus other options to me is central to that discussion...


    Deciding which cards to play with really affects how the deck will work. The way I see it, UWR has 3 different versions:

    UWR Control - We have the traditional control list that plays with Wrath effects, more counters and a lot of burn spells.

    UWR Midrange - The Midrange variant that plays with more creatures.. Geist, Clique and and Resto.. they play with cheap counter magic and all they want to do is to be able to protect their guys and burn you out.

    And the last one would be players that want to be in the middle of the two. These guys want the best of both worlds. Having good cards like Geist, Cryptics and to some extend PWs like Ajani and Elspeth

    Just to add, when I was using GP Kansas as reference, I was actually thinking of GP Portland, which was the last time the Midrange build placed.

    I happen to be one of the guys that want to end the game quickly. I really wish I could still play cryptics profitably since I got them the moment MMA came out. I've played against a lot of Jund and sometimes Pod decks. And in my experience, whenever the Jund deck plays their disruption I wanted as many 2 mana counters as possible so I can conunter their follow up cards like Tarmo and Liliana. This is why Cryptics came off my list. Had it been another 2 mana counter I didn't have to worry about them. Now my cryptics are sitting in my binder and I am not happy about it. Against Pod, you'll want as much removal as possible and some other hate cards like Stony Silence and Surgical Extraction. So there, I also boarded them out vs Pod.

    I know for some Cliques feels controlling, but I personally feel it is a must have in the deck because it lets you decide your next few moves and at the same time plays as a safety net before you play your Geist. On Ajani, it's definitely a good card, but I'm playing restoration angels in its place.

    Right now, I am comfortable with 4x Remand and a 2/1 split of Mana Leak and Izzet Charm. If I need more counters, then that's the time I bring in Counterflux and Negate/Dispel.

    Regardless of our card choices, I believe we all agree that the core of the deck would be Snaps, Geist, Cliques, the burn spells and counters. It is up to you if you want to add Cryptics and PWs like Ajani V or Elspeth.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Quote from wrduardo
    The point is, if you arn't playing against other counterspells and will tap out for geist, then you can't play electrolyze until turn 4 at the earliest, and I don't see how it is superior to cryptic command AT ALL at that point...yes they do different things, but your whole point about this deck lacking card draw is exactly why cryptic command is great...

    I'm not arguing against electrolyze, I am arguing against things like mana leaks being put in in place of cryptic command...

    I am yet to play one game where I was sad to see a cryptic command, and while there are different metagames, the reason cryptic is so awesome is, while expensive, there basically does not exist a deck against which it doesn't do many awesome things...

    I understand to each their own, but people are turning this deck from midrange/tempo into straight out aggro, which I think is just silly...


    I agree that cryptic is a good card. I acknowledge it is a good card, but I personally feel it doesn't belong in this deck.

    I'm not sure why you're saying we are turning the deck into an aggro list. Have you ever checked the original list that Swazy used or the decks that made top 8/16 at GP Kansas? It ran 0 cryptics and a bunch of 2 mana counters. When they created the deck, they wanted the deck with cheap counters and a bunch of burn spells to back up geist. There are good players like Paul Cheon who ran Cryptics in his build, but if you look at his most recent update, the deck became a wrathless UWr Wafo Tapa control list that plays Snapcasters, Clique, and Restos as his main creatures. Don't you think you're the one who's starting to turn this deck into a control list?

    But I respect that. Because at one point I used 2-3 Cryptics in the deck. When you have cryptics in the deck, you play it with mana leaks, remand and spell snare (meta dependent card). That is what I did before, but I ended up cutting Cryptics because I boarded them out a lot. Here are some reason why I think this card doesn't belong in the deck:

    Counterwars - This deck, unlike the control version with think twices and revelations, the midrange build could not consistently hit land. There are games where I have the right amount of counters in hand but do not have the mana to cast it.

    A lot of aggro in your meta - Where I play, the meta is pretty diverse, we have the usual Jund, UWR, Pod and combo players, but there are a lot more on aggro. Decks like GW hatebears, RG Zoo, and Affinity exist. If you face a lot of these decks, it is natural that you don't want 4 mana counters even if it is a catch all card.

    Not a lot of Tron decks - Honestly speaking, this is the only MU where I wish I have cryptics in my main since they can blank out our counters fast. I ran 3 Cryptics main when my meta had a lot of Tron decks. But when it died down, I started cutting cryptics.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Quote from wrduardo
    People who say Cryptic Command is too slow but then are running Electrolyze especially as a 3x or 4x crack me up...

    So you are telling me that essentially an extra blue mana for 3 extra ability choices versus 2 split damage is not worth it? Give me a break...

    To say Cryptic doesn't fit in tempo when it is a hard counter that draws a card is just silly...

    I love the spell snare -> remand -> geist -> removal -> cryptic games when going second...2 card draws means I probably have a removal as well to let geist swing through for pretty much the rest of the match...


    Playing with Cryptics is a personal preference. I used to run 3 but ended up giving up on it. The reason is I want to keep my curve as low as possible because unlike the control version, you need to play spells during your turn. Also, the deck doesn't play a lot of card draw like think twice etc so you normally have 5-6 lands.

    You can't compare a removal spell to a hard counter. They play different roles. Cryptic Command is a good card for decks that want to play the long game. Electrolyze is something you can fire off at the end of your opponent's turn even if they don't have anything on the board. It shortens the clock and takes out relevant blockers.

    You might want to think it over before you laugh at another person and think you're smarter than the rest of us. Just because that card works for you doesn't mean it is the best option for everyone. We have different metagames and that will influence how you set up your main deck.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Celestial Flare vs

    Tron with Eldrazi: Not so good because you need him to attack before you can use the card. You'll have to sacrifice permanents before you can kill it.

    Boggles: It might be useful in this MU, but if there aren't a lot of these decks in your local meta don't bother preparing for it. EE does the job well and can be used for other MUs

    Infect: Burn spells + Spellskite is better

    Geist Mirror: It might work for the mirror but I don't like dedicating 2-3 slots that doesn't do a lot in other MUs.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [[Official]] "What Deck Should I Play?"
    Quote from Heesh
    Yeah I did also look at Soul Sisters, but I did see alot of negatives about it. I Suppose I can't be too fussy for the money.

    I also saw Hatebears but the cards are pricy and the primer did say you need to change your deck every quarter it just adds up :p


    That is something expected when you decide to play soul sisters. It's alright, but it can only do that much.

    For GW Hatebears, there might be some changes needed due to the metagame, but not too much with the core pieces.

    I hate to say this. But if you want to play with better decks, you really need to spend a bit more.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [[Official]] "What Deck Should I Play?"
    There's always soul sisters. Or if you want something else, try out GW Hatebears. It's definitely over $150, but imo, it is one of the better decks out there that don't require fetch lands.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Quote from nikko90
    turn 2 smiter can't be leaked, from that moment if I dont find a path soon, my geist becomes a Flame Javelin XD
    I can bolt ooze if played in early, but in mid/late game he can simply respond by using the ability getting +1 counters and life
    Thrun does not attack, he use it in defense while waiting for sigarda or other cows


    I think the problem is not Thrun but Sigarda since she flies. I suggest you play bombs post board. Cards like Baneslayer Angel and Batterskull will give them a headache. Also playing a few wraths and Ajani V helps too. Also, you might want to make sure you have at least 3 copies of Electrolyze. Electrolyze + bolt/helix is one of the ways not to 2 for 1 yourself when killing a creature with 4 toughness.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Quote from cerefaux
    i'm not a fan of izzet. if it could 2 to the dome i'd be sold.

    on the fence about resto. new legendary rules make clique so good. i wish i had a third, so i'll just stick to my two. without a third i don't know if i can justify a rest. maybe one.


    The reason why I have Izzet Charm is because I want to have 8 counters to deal with a turn 2 Liliana of the Veil, without having to use a playset of Mana Leak. Of course if I happen to remand it on turn 2, I have 3 cliques to deal with it later on. This card conveniently kills Huntmasters, DRS and some creatures in the Pod MU if needed.

    Regarding Resto, it's really up to you if you want to have it. But imo, It works well with Cliques, is good in the combo matchup and the mirror because she lets you leave counter mana up.

    Even if you just own 2 Cliques, I think it's still worth trying. I saw a list went 4-0 with it. You can always take it out if it's doesn't fit your taste.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Quote from Rhinne
    Well, im back from a small gpt with 20 people, with a decent record of 3-1-1.
    My only loss came from a random boggle deck.
    Ut wasnt as bad a match up as i initially tought, i lost 2-1 and in G3 i was 1 life away from killing him, so im more than satisfied.

    R1 i won agaisnt a 4 colour gifts 2-0, R2 i won agaisnt a kikipod 2-0, R3 y lost to boggle 2-1, R4 i won agaisnt Rug fae 2-0, and R5 i tied with a scapeshift.
    In top 8 i won the mirror 2-1, and lost in top 4 to a junk deck, mostly to bad draws.

    All in all, im satisfied with the results i got, so i cant complain too much, even if im a bit bitter about losing to junk.
    On another topic, i got a friend to switch from uwr control to midrange, so we got alot of testing done (finally!) and i got a few conclusions from that.
    The mirror is still dominated by geist, altough in a slightly different manner. When two players have their geist, the one with the lowest life tends to lose, since its almost impossible to race.
    The number of vendilion cliques drawn REALLY affects the outcome of the match. At that moment i was playing 1, my friend 3. Im now convinced that 3 is the right number, but that poses another question, is resto angel a good tool again? that i still dont know, but i will keep testing to see if it has more value than ajani, which is useless in the mirror.
    Tectonic edge is a beast in that game. Double tectonic on a single colour is backbreaking, therefore running 3 is the right choice i think.

    Im still not sure what to cut for the 2 vendilion cliques i need to add, maybe both commands, maybe both ajanis, or another combination of cards.
    The 4th path was completely cut from the side, and i dont miss it one bit.
    Supreme veredict is better than wrath if you expect a lot of mirror. We CAN win a game even of thrun resolves. We cannot win a game if the opponent geist lands and ours does not, verdicts are our only real answer here, wraths will get countered.

    Well, thats all for now, toughts?


    You could try the list that Paul Cheon and LSV 4-0'd with for starters. I made some changes to it like cutting Cryptics completely in favor of cheaper countermagic. In my testing, having something like Izzet Charm is better in the mirror and most matchups. The only time I wanted Cryptics is when I faced Tron decks.

    Having 3 cliques makes 2 copies of Restoration Angel worth it. It's alright to have Resto in the main if you meta has a lot of combo decks. I usually side her out when I play against midrange decks for bombs like Baneslayer / Batterskull / Thundermaw. Having these big guys made it easier for me when facing opposing Baloths and Thruns.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Quote from iamghost
    i don't run izzet charm and i don't run the cards you told me to sideboard in against trhough the breach, though Grin


    Sorry if I didn't explain it properly. I meant, that is what I would do with my list. I guess with your deck, I guess you could always board out Ajani some number of burn spells for Cage and Counterflux. Cage and snap is a nombo but playing it as ambush viper seems alright.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Quote from iamghost

    everytime i look at this list, i feel SO uncomfortable with the lack of definitive t2 and t3 counters like mana leak, having to rely only on remand until i have 3U to cast command. But i desperatedly need to draw if i want not to skip lands drops. Plus, when i played mana leak in 2x, it was the card that i was always siding out in g2 against 90% of opponents. So i think it is mostly some sort of a psychological thing, it just help me feeling safe to know i run some.


    I exactly know how you feel. At first I enjoyed playing with Cryptics in this deck, but that was because I used to play against decks that do not have disruption (discard / countermagic). Not that I'm saying it's a bad card, but since you have to play with more threats, it is hard to leave up a reasonable amount of mana while casting your geist. I used to have 3 copies, went down to 2, and now I completely removed it from my list.

    I went with this counter package instead:

    4 Remand
    2 Mana Leak
    2 Izzet Charm

    Now that you are playing with 3 Cliques, Remand just gets better. It also helps you set up your next turn so you can safely play Geist. Remand happens to work well with Cliques too.

    I know some of us might think 2 Mana Leaks is not a good idea. I just like the fact that you have 8x 2 mana counters for annoying cards like LoTV. In case you drew it mid to late game, you can always cycle them away with Izzet Charms.

    In case additional counters are needed, we can always board in Counterflux and Dispels from our sideboard.

    Quote from iamghost
    I am expecting a lot of scapeshift, tron, URW twin, and Pod. I also think that someone could bring Through the Breach deck. What do you think about that MU? how to side? i think i can just stay stapped and not let him resolve trough the breach. If he does, Griselbrand is not a great problem since i run a full set of PTE, but Emrakul is pretty annoying... any thought?


    I don't have a lot of experience playing against Griselcanon but if I am paired with this deck, the first thing I would do is to board out Geists for PTE, Counterflux, Mindcensor (The creature being flash helps in the combo MU, and it's a decent clock against them), and Surgical Extraction.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Quote from crni
    Here is my list. Why no love for Restoration Angel I think that is really good creature with massive butt and a lot of games I won because of her. I went with this build 4-0 three weeks in a row.


    The reason why some of us that decided to run Resto only want 2 is because she costs 3W. She shines in the combo matchup because it allows you to slide in a threat during your opponent's turn while you hold up counterspell mana. But other than that, you don't get a lot of chance to blink snapcasters or vendilion cliques like because most of the time your opponent will kill them in response to your Angel, or it already died before Resto came into play.

    It is probably alright to have 3-4 copies in standard because Augur of Bolas is playable in that format and other than your typical Blitz or RG deck, the format has a bunch of midrange decks that will start doing things on turn 4+

    I'd say she's good against the following:

    Splinter Twin
    Scapeshift
    Storm
    UWR Mirrors
    Tron Variants - I'd say she's better against U / UW Tron because they are slower

    She's not that great against the following:

    Jund or BG/x decks - they play a handful of disruption and liliana. She doesn't have a big impact on the board because they have better creatures

    Pod - Not that relevant against them. Even if you are able to blink Cliques they have a lot of ways to find their combo pieces. But we shouldn't worry too much about this MU since they struggle with the amount of burn we run.

    Affinity / Robots - They can empty their hand pretty fast and things get bad if you don't have enough burn spells. You don't want multiple copies of resto in your opener against this deck.

    I'm sure there are other decks that will just ignore her like Burn, Infect, Boggles but they are not a big portion of the meta.

    I'm reacting this way probably because of my area's meta. There are several Jund and Pod players here and every time I play with them Resto doesn't do a lot for me.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Quote from erebus91
    So guys, what's the sideboard plan versus Melira Pod?

    My maindeck is similar to LSV's list posted here; http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5231&d=230156

    My sideboard is slightly different and I play 3 Remand 2 Mana Leak main.

    Cheers


    I watched Cheon stream yesterday and what he did against this MU is to board out his 2 mana counters and kept all Cryptic Commands. He brought it Batterskull, Mindcensor (I think), Stony Silence and Path.

    He's playing a tweaked version btw. Just to add, when I play against them I like to bring in pyroclasm and a 1 of surgical extraction.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Quote from wrduardo
    Against affinity, siding in two extra electrolyze and also elspeth for ajani would make sense to me...


    I think having the extra electrolyze seems like a waste of sideboard slots. You can always bring in pyroclasm or EE as another form of sweeper against this deck. It's is also pretty good against other MUs

    Quote from wrduardo
    Also, I don't know why everyone was so quick to jump off resto angel...she seems so invaluable in games that go more than 4 turns...


    I think this depends on your meta. For my case, I am forced to switch back to her because I am expecting more combo decks where I play. And leaving up mana to counter and at the same time flashing her in is necessary.

    But if my meta allowed me to live after I tap out on turn 5, I would probably play with bigger threats like Baneslayer, Thundermaw or Batterskull.

    The only time I get value out of Resto is when I'm against decks that are removal light. Most of the time, she's just a 3/4 flying beater for 3W. I'm not saying she's bad. She actually fits the tempo plan pretty well and is hard to kill. But with one more mana you have a finisher that gains you life or a hasty dragon that kills lingering soul tokens.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Primer] UWr Midrange
    Quote from wrduardo
    I just don't see Storm and Scapeshift as being that common of decks, and there are very few matchups where I will be sad to see two paths in my hand as some point or another...

    Honestly, my MVP of most matches outside of Geist and Lightning Bolt is Path to Exile...


    It's understandable. It's probably a meta call and it looks like you face more creature decks.
    Posted in: Midrange
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