My position was always that the de facto position at Wizards was that even foil cards were bound by the Reserve List, and this series of events seems to back it up that this was the case, even to the point that they wanted to put Sliver Queen in PDS:S but "could not" (due to R&D internal policy or the edict of some boss somewhere, presumably.) I've always said that the policy could change and that's pretty much exactly what's happened.
Yes, the de facto position was that foil cards were bound, but that was not the OFFICIAL position. The policy did not change, they just decided that the official position was better than the de facto one they had created for internal use only.
Well, it's not "different" in that both are actually disallowed by the wording of the policy, which only explicitly grants an exception for "cards not meant for regular game play." But that's what makes both instances a change of the policy. When Reserved Judge foils were introduced, it was a modification of the policy (an informal modification, but a modification nonetheless) -- "even though it says we're only allowed to do stuff like Collector's Editions and oversized cards, we've chosen to print these cards anyway." This event is another modification of the policy, by inventing a second, different reason to do something that the written policy doesn't cover.
Are you reading the policy wrong, or just not reading the whole thing? It says the reserved list policy applies to "non-premium, tournament legal Magic cards." The comma means that the cards printed must be BOTH. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. If it is premium OR not tourney legal (oversized, collector's edition, etc) then it is exempt from the policy. Why are you ignoring that part?
I believe the reason WOTC never acknowledged the priceless treasures is a legal one. It amounts to a sweepstakes or other odds-based promotion. There are many laws dealing with disclosure of such promotions. I believe that by not acknowledging it, they get around having to deal with the legal issues surrounding it. For example, but not limited to, 1) including the collation rate on the packs and other promotional material, 2) differentiating between first and second run boxes (more than just a serial number, it would require different packaging, distrubution, etc), 3) other obscure international laws that may prevent such a promotion.
It's not a sweepstakes any more than putting foil Baneslayers in M10 is a sweepstakes or WoW having loot cards is a sweepstakes. Every pack of Magic is an odds-based promotion. If it were a sweepstakes, they also would need to have a "no purchase necessary" option available, which is impossible. In random drawings, you send in your name etc. in lieu of a purchase and it gets entered into the random drawing. In the McDonalds Monopoly game, you can mail away for free game pieces. The thing is, there's no way to do that. There's no random drawing, and there are no little pieces to scratch off and see if you win. You are paying money for a PRODUCT, and that product may be worth money. You are not paying money for a product and INCIDENTALLY getting some sort of game piece or raffle entry that itself has no value.
What do you call the oversized Lightning Bolts they sent out with the Player Rewards mailings? Premium had a meaning before foils existed.
Those aren't premium cards. Those aren't even cards, as they don't have Magic backs. Tokens that you get in packs are also no considered cards, and if you accidentally shuffle some elf tokens into your deck after game 1 and call a judge, you will NOT get a game loss for illegal deck as there are no extra cards in your deck. (This came up on the judge listserv a while ago. Check the archives if you don't believe me) And no, premium did NOT have a meaning before foils existed (In Magic terms). The oversized Arena/magazine promo cards were NOT premium cards, they were oversized cards.
Because certain precedents are old and long-standing, you're taking them for granted as obvious, and this is not justified. Someone who knew nothing about Magic's history would arrive at very different conclusions about what the letter of the reserve list policy does and does not allow.
Only if they're an idiot without even a 3rd grade level of reading comprehension. Someone who knew nothing about Magic's history should arrive at the correct conclusion. It's only because of the precedent set by their internal agreement not to utilize the loophole outside of judge foils that causes the refusal of people like you to listen to reason and read the words that are in front of you, plain as day.
What about being foil makes it separate? Commander you have to make the argument that them changing the original reserve list makes there actions now justified, it doesnt the agreement was the above, nothing about premium mentioned.
Can you repeat this with proper grammar and full sentences and stuff? I want to respond, but I'm not entirely sure what you're even asking.
The way the policy is worded, it is implied that all magic cards fall into two categories: "Non-premium, tournament-legal Magic cards" and "special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as oversized cards." Foil cards did not exist when the wording was chosen, and although wizards has used "premium" and "foil" interchangeably since the introduction of foils, this usage is not intuitive not does it mesh with the letter of the reserve list policy.
As I understand it, that loophole wasn't added until 2002, WELL after the creation of foils. Even if foils hadn't existed, foil cards are explicitly referred to as premium by them (Read:Super Secret Tech) so the meaning of that statement is clear. I don't know why people are being so stubborn about finally admitting they were wrong, but there's no way you can twist the policy to say what you want it to. Your attempt makes little to no sense,and is completely inaccurate.
To sum up:
The letter of the reserve list policy implies that merely foiling out a card does not make it "premium." Tournament-legal status and intention for regular gameplay are the test.
The reserve list policy does not define the term premium. Foiling out a card DOES make it premium. That's the ONLY thing that makes a card premium. I can't tell if you honestly believe what you're saying at this point or just lying because you refuse to be wrong, but you ARE wrong. Big time.
The reprint policy has been a dead letter for years, because of how liberally "special versions of cards not meant for regular game play" has been interpreted. It means essentially whatever Wizards says it means. When Wizards changes the way it presents the interpretation of this line to the public, it is completely identical to just rewriting the reserve list policy entirely.
You couldn't be more wrong. It has nothing to do with special versions, it's the non-premium part that is important. Here's a little lesson in logic and reading comprehension:
The policy applies only to non-premium, tournament legal Magic cards.
This means that for the reserved list policy to apply, the card must be non-premium AND tournament legal. If the card is not tournament legal (Oversized cards and such which is what the special versions is referring to) the policy does not apply. If the card is premium (foil) the policy does not apply.
Your entire post on special versions is irrelevant, because nothing regarding that has changed. The policy never applied to foil cards. EVER. I never understood why this was hard for people to understand, and now that they've made the internal change without changing the official policy, I don't know why people STILL refuse to believe the words that are right there in front of them, and have been for like 8 years.
I'm very politically inclined, so it's in my best interest to be distrustful. Besides, it's not a matter of paranoia in this case. They had an unofficial policy to never reprint cards as rares outside of core sets anymore. Birds of Paradise put an end to that (Also ending the unofficial policy to not reprint Birds of Paradise). They also had an unofficial policy to never again make lands that don't tap for mana, but Dark Depths ended that. People thought it was because Coldsnap was like a fake, throwback thing, but now we've got Eye of Ugin.
Unofficial policy is utterly worthless, and not just from WotC. If it's not officially in writing, there's nothing stopping it from being disregarded.
I'm going on record right now and stating that before the end of 2012 we will see foil dual lands in booster packs (The real, Alpha dual lands). You can quote me on that.
This is a great idea and I hope they do it. The rarity needs to be like one per case though, not one per 20 boxes. At our store I saw 80+ boxes opened and not a single treasure. A lot of people refuse to believe that they ever existed and think it's all a big conspiracy, and it stopped driving sales after no one opened any for weeks.
Of course, the fact that they'd be new foil versions of things like dual lands (The most important thing they can reprint, which they obviously know given how high a percent of priceless treasures were dual lands) that hadn't existed before would be proof they were real, but making it as rare as the priceless treasures doesn't help anyone except the lucky people who open them and immediately hock them to collectors. They need to be rare enough to be special, but common enough to be playable. One per case should work pretty nicely for that. Hell, even 2.5 per case (read: varying between 2 and 3 per case, not half a card) would be fine.
They had an internal policy that they did not write down and formally append to the official policy. They have just now done away with that internal policy. That is the change. The internal policy is mentioned most anytime one of the WotC writers does an article summarizing a box set - the most recent example was Ken Nagle talking about the Slivers deck here.
Previously, the policy was that they COULD print the reserved cards in foil in the Duel Decks, but they WOULDN'T. Now they STILL CAN, and they have decided that they WILL. That's the change, as simple as I can explain it.
You're making my point. There is NO difference between what they are doing now and judge foils, and there never was. They could always do this, and had chosen not to. They mentioned that they wouldn't, and even incorrectly used to word "couldn't" a few times, but it was ignorant of anyone to honestly believe that. The reserved list represents a promise to the players/collectors, however them agreeing amongst themselves "Let's not use this loophole for anything but judge foils" is not a promise to us in any way, so there's no reason to think they wouldn't break it. Furthermore, until you see it written down in official policy, you should never believe a word they say.
I'm still waiting for charlequin and others to admit they're wrong...
Like charlequin mentioned, it's just weird that they don't just go one way or the other. Masticore a mythic in M11, or don't print them in any form, not this random reprint when it fits a special set being released.
The reserved list policy says they can't make it a mythic in M11. This random reprint when it fits a special set being released is EXACTLY what the loophole is for.
There are only two possible options here: either WotC has been lying about what their policy means, or they've changed the policy. There are literally no other explanations.
In the lying case, you have WotC deciding early on that their policy allows them to do any ridiculous thing they want, no matter how strongly it goes against the plain meaning of the policy -- common Moxes in booster packs! -- as long as they slap a foil layer on the cards, and then purposely hiding this knowledge so they can roll it out at some random future date.
In the changing-the-policy case, you have people in charge of the policy who understand that it very much is not intended to allow reprints of any kind from reaching the public, but also know they've changed it twice before (removing the uncommons, allowing for Judge foils) so they figure they might as well just change it again.
In either case, the measurable impact of the change is huge: two months ago there were huge limits on what cards could appear in any product for sale, and now there are none.
Blah blah blah. You didn't address my question AT ALL. I want you to look at the policy and tell me how, AS THE POLICY IS WRITTEN, it is any different for them to print the Duel Decks foil Phyrexian Negator than it was to print a judge foil Phyrexian Negator. I don't care how they presented the information or what precedents were set, but strictly under the wording of the "loophole", how are printing those 2 different foils different and how does it signify a change.
Wait, did you just say Force of Will (non-coolified) would go for more than a Premium version? Why?
And is Wizards actually going to make an attempt at making sure it's sold for it's actual price this time? That's my only problem with them.
They don't expect it to be sold for MSRP. It's there one gift a year to try to help out B&M stores that are getting their sales raped by online vendors (Who are rarely cheaper).
Greven, it was only now that they're using the "loophole" for products available at retail. They WANTED to put Sliver Queen in Premium Deck Series: Slivers but were unable to because of the Reserved List.
There was no change to the policy They wanted to, they chose not to. The article someone linked to as "proof" where they state they could not is a lie. They said "We can't reprint Sliver Queen" as a blanket statement, which no exception. We know this is a lie from judge promos where they do reprint reserved list cards.
My claim was always that they've said the policy worked one way, and their statement just now regarding this news is pretty much that they did say it worked that way before, only now they've changed their minds and are making up new rules as they go along because they can make more money this way than by actually following up on their previous statements. Just recently we had the most explicit statement yet that this was not allowed by the Reserved List policy.
The policy worked one way, which is they same way that it is currently working. If you take their promise (The exact wording in the reserved list exception) it clearly states that something like this is allowed, and always has been. It may have been interpreted differently, but it says the same thing it always did, and they've finally decided it's best to use the loophole for more than just judge promos. If you disagree, please tell me exactly how printing a judge promo foil Phyrexian Negator did not violate the reserved list, but the Duel Decks foil Phyrexian Negator would have violated the reserved list AS THE "LOOPHOLE" IS WRITTEN. (NOT as it may have been used or interpreted in the past, but as it is literally written.)
Yes, the de facto position was that foil cards were bound, but that was not the OFFICIAL position. The policy did not change, they just decided that the official position was better than the de facto one they had created for internal use only.
Are you reading the policy wrong, or just not reading the whole thing? It says the reserved list policy applies to "non-premium, tournament legal Magic cards." The comma means that the cards printed must be BOTH. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. If it is premium OR not tourney legal (oversized, collector's edition, etc) then it is exempt from the policy. Why are you ignoring that part?
It's not a sweepstakes any more than putting foil Baneslayers in M10 is a sweepstakes or WoW having loot cards is a sweepstakes. Every pack of Magic is an odds-based promotion. If it were a sweepstakes, they also would need to have a "no purchase necessary" option available, which is impossible. In random drawings, you send in your name etc. in lieu of a purchase and it gets entered into the random drawing. In the McDonalds Monopoly game, you can mail away for free game pieces. The thing is, there's no way to do that. There's no random drawing, and there are no little pieces to scratch off and see if you win. You are paying money for a PRODUCT, and that product may be worth money. You are not paying money for a product and INCIDENTALLY getting some sort of game piece or raffle entry that itself has no value.
The policy doesn't introduce any new terms, so there's no need to define anything in it.
NO, be definition.
Those aren't premium cards. Those aren't even cards, as they don't have Magic backs. Tokens that you get in packs are also no considered cards, and if you accidentally shuffle some elf tokens into your deck after game 1 and call a judge, you will NOT get a game loss for illegal deck as there are no extra cards in your deck. (This came up on the judge listserv a while ago. Check the archives if you don't believe me) And no, premium did NOT have a meaning before foils existed (In Magic terms). The oversized Arena/magazine promo cards were NOT premium cards, they were oversized cards.
Only if they're an idiot without even a 3rd grade level of reading comprehension. Someone who knew nothing about Magic's history should arrive at the correct conclusion. It's only because of the precedent set by their internal agreement not to utilize the loophole outside of judge foils that causes the refusal of people like you to listen to reason and read the words that are in front of you, plain as day.
Can you repeat this with proper grammar and full sentences and stuff? I want to respond, but I'm not entirely sure what you're even asking.
This would be beyond broken.
As I understand it, that loophole wasn't added until 2002, WELL after the creation of foils. Even if foils hadn't existed, foil cards are explicitly referred to as premium by them (Read:Super Secret Tech) so the meaning of that statement is clear. I don't know why people are being so stubborn about finally admitting they were wrong, but there's no way you can twist the policy to say what you want it to. Your attempt makes little to no sense,and is completely inaccurate.
The reserve list policy does not define the term premium. Foiling out a card DOES make it premium. That's the ONLY thing that makes a card premium. I can't tell if you honestly believe what you're saying at this point or just lying because you refuse to be wrong, but you ARE wrong. Big time.
You couldn't be more wrong. It has nothing to do with special versions, it's the non-premium part that is important. Here's a little lesson in logic and reading comprehension:
The policy applies only to non-premium, tournament legal Magic cards.
This means that for the reserved list policy to apply, the card must be non-premium AND tournament legal. If the card is not tournament legal (Oversized cards and such which is what the special versions is referring to) the policy does not apply. If the card is premium (foil) the policy does not apply.
Your entire post on special versions is irrelevant, because nothing regarding that has changed. The policy never applied to foil cards. EVER. I never understood why this was hard for people to understand, and now that they've made the internal change without changing the official policy, I don't know why people STILL refuse to believe the words that are right there in front of them, and have been for like 8 years.
I'm very politically inclined, so it's in my best interest to be distrustful. Besides, it's not a matter of paranoia in this case. They had an unofficial policy to never reprint cards as rares outside of core sets anymore. Birds of Paradise put an end to that (Also ending the unofficial policy to not reprint Birds of Paradise). They also had an unofficial policy to never again make lands that don't tap for mana, but Dark Depths ended that. People thought it was because Coldsnap was like a fake, throwback thing, but now we've got Eye of Ugin.
Unofficial policy is utterly worthless, and not just from WotC. If it's not officially in writing, there's nothing stopping it from being disregarded.
Of course, the fact that they'd be new foil versions of things like dual lands (The most important thing they can reprint, which they obviously know given how high a percent of priceless treasures were dual lands) that hadn't existed before would be proof they were real, but making it as rare as the priceless treasures doesn't help anyone except the lucky people who open them and immediately hock them to collectors. They need to be rare enough to be special, but common enough to be playable. One per case should work pretty nicely for that. Hell, even 2.5 per case (read: varying between 2 and 3 per case, not half a card) would be fine.
You're making my point. There is NO difference between what they are doing now and judge foils, and there never was. They could always do this, and had chosen not to. They mentioned that they wouldn't, and even incorrectly used to word "couldn't" a few times, but it was ignorant of anyone to honestly believe that. The reserved list represents a promise to the players/collectors, however them agreeing amongst themselves "Let's not use this loophole for anything but judge foils" is not a promise to us in any way, so there's no reason to think they wouldn't break it. Furthermore, until you see it written down in official policy, you should never believe a word they say.
I'm still waiting for charlequin and others to admit they're wrong...
The reserved list policy says they can't make it a mythic in M11. This random reprint when it fits a special set being released is EXACTLY what the loophole is for.
Blah blah blah. You didn't address my question AT ALL. I want you to look at the policy and tell me how, AS THE POLICY IS WRITTEN, it is any different for them to print the Duel Decks foil Phyrexian Negator than it was to print a judge foil Phyrexian Negator. I don't care how they presented the information or what precedents were set, but strictly under the wording of the "loophole", how are printing those 2 different foils different and how does it signify a change.
They don't expect it to be sold for MSRP. It's there one gift a year to try to help out B&M stores that are getting their sales raped by online vendors (Who are rarely cheaper).
I hope not. There's already like a $6 foil version of Powder Keg. Disk is great, but Masticore is completely unexciting, as Powder Keg would be.
There was no change to the policy They wanted to, they chose not to. The article someone linked to as "proof" where they state they could not is a lie. They said "We can't reprint Sliver Queen" as a blanket statement, which no exception. We know this is a lie from judge promos where they do reprint reserved list cards.
The policy worked one way, which is they same way that it is currently working. If you take their promise (The exact wording in the reserved list exception) it clearly states that something like this is allowed, and always has been. It may have been interpreted differently, but it says the same thing it always did, and they've finally decided it's best to use the loophole for more than just judge promos. If you disagree, please tell me exactly how printing a judge promo foil Phyrexian Negator did not violate the reserved list, but the Duel Decks foil Phyrexian Negator would have violated the reserved list AS THE "LOOPHOLE" IS WRITTEN. (NOT as it may have been used or interpreted in the past, but as it is literally written.)