Quick question: What build would you guys recommend for a metagame of predominantly aggro (Zoo, Jund, Burn, Boros), with a smattering of Storm combo, twin, and Teachings? I'mm currently looking at a tweaked version of Alan Warnock's list with MD Auriok Champions. Any advice from the experts would be greatly appreciated.
Just scouring the thread looking for some advice on playing around SB hate vs storm. Tried out Hybrid PiF-Ascension yesterday in the dailies and constructed queues but seem to always get blown off by hate...In particularly relic of progenitus and mindbreak trap.
I read some post on playing around Mindbreak Trap in this thread but the suggestion seems be to play two grapeshot. My opponent however, mindbreak trapped the mana ramp spells, leaving me with not enough mana to go off. Is there any suggestions for playing around that?
And relic as well, the only idea i have is trickbind it as they can in response sac to removal.
Thanks!
If your opponent is countering your ramp spells with Mindbreak Trap, he's doing it wrong. So long as you're allowing them to resolve while holding priority, and playing conscious of Mindbreak Trap, this should not be a problem. At worst (for you), this leaves him exposed to Past in Flames. At best, you sandbagged a couple rituals because he interrupted your chain prematurely and you squash him on the next turn.
But if you let them just ramp madly, they hit 9 mana fairly easily, and then they have 7 or 8 titans to your 3 or 4 dissipates.
Here's the thing: A titan resolving against you *does not* equal GG. Counter where you can, but focus specifically on shutting down Primeval Titan. Kessig Wolf Run and Inkmoth Nexus are the reason you will lose games (honorable mention: Thrun), not the Titan directly. In general, if you can afford to, allow Inferno Titans to resolve, take the three, kill it on your mainphase, and then erase the 3 dmg with Talismans. Aggressively destroy Wolf-Runs with Ghost Quarters when possible, but be conscious of Nexii beats, as they add up over time. Gideon helps immesely with Nexii once Wolf Run is no longer part of the equation.
With sufficient time, this style of deck can invalidate Prime Titan as a threat. For this reason, I would advocate using Mana Leaks on ramp spells (specifically Solemns). You want your hard counters for real threats, but in this matchup, you have inevitability, so play accordingly. If you are winning, the games will go long and you mana leaks will get progressively more useless. Get whatever value you can, provided you have an actual plan for when they start crapping fat at 6+mana.
Invalidate Thrun with token producers, ramp up to your endgame, draw 13 billion cards with USZ, and kill them at your leisure. Resolving Elesh Norn or Karn with protection will typically end the game on the spot. What's important is getting to that stage of the game with enough resources to stay ahead.
Why would you be casting this turn 4? Sounds like you kept a hand without removal/counter magic and therefore should be losing. White Sun shouldn't be cast unless you are getting 4 or more kitties. Unless you REALLY need it for some reason.
Most times it 'shouldn't' be cast on t4-5. However, I feel it is important to recognize the situations in which it is beneficial to do so, i.e. to kill an otherwise troublesome Geist of Saint Traft/random X-2. It's not very versatile, but X spells have variable value by-design. It's good to be aware of its value at every stage of development. Defensive WSZ is an underrated line of play.
4 mana for 1 2/2 is never going to save you against aggro decks. WSZ is best against control decks and midrange decks. The fast red aggro and UW aggro decks would love for it to be in your hand instead of something like gideon or elspeth that can actually buy you an extra turn to draw into something to save your tail.
Agreed (though a 2/2 will eat a Geist of Saint Traft in a desperate situation). Wrath will always be your go-to plan A. However, as I mentioned in my last post, a single Wrath often won't be enough. Wrath, followed up by Gideon into 3-4 2/2s is typically much scarier than Gideon alone. Topped off at Karn or Elesh Norn will usually put a hurting on any opponent. I will concede the point that I don't think it's a three-of, ala Martell's list. It's pretty miserable in an opening hand.
1. An instant-speed win condition
2. A combat trick
3. A way to protect your planeswalkers
4. Fogging Thrun for X turns
5. Pressuring opposing Planeswalkers
6. Counter Bait
It's great to fire one off when they tap out to double-Drownyard you, but that trick is going to work exactly once. Most other control decks are running Snapcasters, so they don't necessarily mind burning a counterspell.
It doesn't need to work more than once. At the stage in the game where they are relying on double-drownyarding you out of the game, you should be able to present a two-turn clock at minimum.
WSZ is mostly terrible against aggro. Aggro is the most prominent match up.
Wholeheartedly disagree. Wrath is still your go-to aggro trump, but the resilience of the swarm decks will require a second one right-quick as they regain board advantage within a turn or two on average. The most common ways to stabilize after the first sweeper are Talisman plus Planeswalkers (plus another Wrath/Elesh Norn if you're lucky). Cat-Suns protect your planeswalkers quite effectively, allowing you to advance your gameplan with your walkers rather than just tread water. It's slow, yes. I cannot deny that. But it's incredibly valuable at the relevant stage of the game. FWIW, I run 2 Ratchet Bombs and a Phyrexian Rebirth in addition to the 4 ***s as a concession to the point that Cat-Sun isn't good enough against on its own. In Cat-Sun's defense, most other options aren't either (Norn being the only exception).
Ratchet Bomb requires serious metagame knowledge. Pre-emptively dropping a Ratchet Bomb is plenty fast enough if you know what number to charge it to for it to both function as a pre-emptive removal spell for your opponent's scariest card, while also leaving it low enough that it can be charged to take out a threat that costs more/less than the one you fear most. It's complicated, but it does the job.
well cuneos UW and the SCG dudes Uw/x/x are completely different decks. I haven't seen enough of the Uw/x/x decks to considered them good yet because 3-4 GQ seems necessary with wolf runs and moorlands running around.(both of which are pretty good against you)
Inkmoth itself isn't too big a deal, because running an Inkmoth into a Gut Shot severely hampers their development, so activating an Inkmoth is a potentially game-breaking risk at any stage of the game. Post-SB ancient Grudges go deep. Wolf-run itself isn't too big a concern because wolf-run doesn't become a significant threat until the later stages of the game, and only if they can stick an on-board threat. If your plan is to 1-for-1 them to T7 or so, they cannot afford to stop developing their board out of fear of countermagic. By the time it becomes hugely relevant, Sun Titan/Ghost Quarter recursion should make it a non-factor. Thrun is the go-to control killer, but 4cc deck doesn't mind as much because MD Phantasmals plus a crazy amount of card filtering neutralize Thrun pretty consistently.
As for Moorland, Pristine Talisman acts as an additional way to mitigte/invalidate the impact of of Haunt until you can stick an Elesh Norn. I do agree though that that card is problematic vs a deck that cannot afford to run 4 Ghost Quarters. That said, I experienced similar problems vs Haunt with Martell's variant due to how mana-intensive the deck is. There are many scenarios in which popping a Ghost Quarter early leaves you too far behind for your 'phase three' spells to take over the game. I'm currently trying to find a happy medium between the two archetypes, though I currently favor the 4cc just based on its superior card filtering options and its maximizing of cards I think are better positioned. Elesh Norn and Sun Titan, plus Ratchet Bomb, Image, and Ghost Quarter are all extremely well-positioned in my aggrocentric local meta.
Well, there's more spot removal, and removing the spellbomb from the game, via Dust to Dust or Revoke Existance, or putting a "decoy" reanimation target into the grave, like Akroma to draw out the hate. Then there's getting your game plan set up to go off at instant speed, then waiting to respond.
The problem is not a single piece of graveyard hate. It's multiple people at the table having access to cards like Relic of Progenitus. And worse, Glissa guy rebuying his Spellbomb every time a creature dies. That is when things start to get a little dicey. Examples of instant speed loops not contained in the OP are appreciated.
So i've recently thrown this bad boy together and have been very impressed. I'm now on my buddies' "one to watch" list, and spot-hate has become more prevalent. This is especially so with one opponent's Glissa deck w/ Nihil Spellbomb and Sylvok Replica recursion. Any tips on going over the top of graveyard hate?
What is a good win condition that isn't weak to graveyard hate? teachings isn't a great match up because they can easily extirpate/extract your win conditions.
I would think Thrun is probably the option with the most value across multiple matchups. It is also one of the most effective not-graveyard-based threats against the decks able to spot-target your graveyard consistently (i.e. control). If it's a single splash of spot-hate you're worried about, a singleton Unburial Rites plus (insert fattie here) would give you another I-Win gifts package.
Please keep us updated (And by us, I of course mean me). As we move closer to Modern season, I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread. Good luck.
I just built a Ghost Council EDH deck and am familiarizing myself with the interactions. I had an interesting scenario come up.
Question:
When Generals are killed and go to the graveyard, is moving them to the command zone a replacement effect?
Question in context:
I had a Ghost Council on the field with a Grave Pact and an arbitrary sac outlet. I sac'd Ghost Council and moved it to the command zone. Does this sequence trigger Grave Pact, or does moving Ghost Council to the command zone bypass the trigger?
Please use card tags in future posts. The Forum Guidelines explain how to do that. -Carsten
If your opponent is countering your ramp spells with Mindbreak Trap, he's doing it wrong. So long as you're allowing them to resolve while holding priority, and playing conscious of Mindbreak Trap, this should not be a problem. At worst (for you), this leaves him exposed to Past in Flames. At best, you sandbagged a couple rituals because he interrupted your chain prematurely and you squash him on the next turn.
Here's the thing: A titan resolving against you *does not* equal GG. Counter where you can, but focus specifically on shutting down Primeval Titan. Kessig Wolf Run and Inkmoth Nexus are the reason you will lose games (honorable mention: Thrun), not the Titan directly. In general, if you can afford to, allow Inferno Titans to resolve, take the three, kill it on your mainphase, and then erase the 3 dmg with Talismans. Aggressively destroy Wolf-Runs with Ghost Quarters when possible, but be conscious of Nexii beats, as they add up over time. Gideon helps immesely with Nexii once Wolf Run is no longer part of the equation.
With sufficient time, this style of deck can invalidate Prime Titan as a threat. For this reason, I would advocate using Mana Leaks on ramp spells (specifically Solemns). You want your hard counters for real threats, but in this matchup, you have inevitability, so play accordingly. If you are winning, the games will go long and you mana leaks will get progressively more useless. Get whatever value you can, provided you have an actual plan for when they start crapping fat at 6+mana.
Invalidate Thrun with token producers, ramp up to your endgame, draw 13 billion cards with USZ, and kill them at your leisure. Resolving Elesh Norn or Karn with protection will typically end the game on the spot. What's important is getting to that stage of the game with enough resources to stay ahead.
Most times it 'shouldn't' be cast on t4-5. However, I feel it is important to recognize the situations in which it is beneficial to do so, i.e. to kill an otherwise troublesome Geist of Saint Traft/random X-2. It's not very versatile, but X spells have variable value by-design. It's good to be aware of its value at every stage of development. Defensive WSZ is an underrated line of play.
Agreed (though a 2/2 will eat a Geist of Saint Traft in a desperate situation). Wrath will always be your go-to plan A. However, as I mentioned in my last post, a single Wrath often won't be enough. Wrath, followed up by Gideon into 3-4 2/2s is typically much scarier than Gideon alone. Topped off at Karn or Elesh Norn will usually put a hurting on any opponent. I will concede the point that I don't think it's a three-of, ala Martell's list. It's pretty miserable in an opening hand.
4. Fogging Thrun for X turns
5. Pressuring opposing Planeswalkers
6. Counter Bait
It doesn't need to work more than once. At the stage in the game where they are relying on double-drownyarding you out of the game, you should be able to present a two-turn clock at minimum.
Wholeheartedly disagree. Wrath is still your go-to aggro trump, but the resilience of the swarm decks will require a second one right-quick as they regain board advantage within a turn or two on average. The most common ways to stabilize after the first sweeper are Talisman plus Planeswalkers (plus another Wrath/Elesh Norn if you're lucky). Cat-Suns protect your planeswalkers quite effectively, allowing you to advance your gameplan with your walkers rather than just tread water. It's slow, yes. I cannot deny that. But it's incredibly valuable at the relevant stage of the game. FWIW, I run 2 Ratchet Bombs and a Phyrexian Rebirth in addition to the 4 ***s as a concession to the point that Cat-Sun isn't good enough against on its own. In Cat-Sun's defense, most other options aren't either (Norn being the only exception).
P.S. Cat-Sun + Norn = Fun times v. ANY opponent
Inkmoth itself isn't too big a deal, because running an Inkmoth into a Gut Shot severely hampers their development, so activating an Inkmoth is a potentially game-breaking risk at any stage of the game. Post-SB ancient Grudges go deep. Wolf-run itself isn't too big a concern because wolf-run doesn't become a significant threat until the later stages of the game, and only if they can stick an on-board threat. If your plan is to 1-for-1 them to T7 or so, they cannot afford to stop developing their board out of fear of countermagic. By the time it becomes hugely relevant, Sun Titan/Ghost Quarter recursion should make it a non-factor. Thrun is the go-to control killer, but 4cc deck doesn't mind as much because MD Phantasmals plus a crazy amount of card filtering neutralize Thrun pretty consistently.
As for Moorland, Pristine Talisman acts as an additional way to mitigte/invalidate the impact of of Haunt until you can stick an Elesh Norn. I do agree though that that card is problematic vs a deck that cannot afford to run 4 Ghost Quarters. That said, I experienced similar problems vs Haunt with Martell's variant due to how mana-intensive the deck is. There are many scenarios in which popping a Ghost Quarter early leaves you too far behind for your 'phase three' spells to take over the game. I'm currently trying to find a happy medium between the two archetypes, though I currently favor the 4cc just based on its superior card filtering options and its maximizing of cards I think are better positioned. Elesh Norn and Sun Titan, plus Ratchet Bomb, Image, and Ghost Quarter are all extremely well-positioned in my aggrocentric local meta.
The problem is not a single piece of graveyard hate. It's multiple people at the table having access to cards like Relic of Progenitus. And worse, Glissa guy rebuying his Spellbomb every time a creature dies. That is when things start to get a little dicey. Examples of instant speed loops not contained in the OP are appreciated.
I would think Thrun is probably the option with the most value across multiple matchups. It is also one of the most effective not-graveyard-based threats against the decks able to spot-target your graveyard consistently (i.e. control). If it's a single splash of spot-hate you're worried about, a singleton Unburial Rites plus (insert fattie here) would give you another I-Win gifts package.
Please keep us updated (And by us, I of course mean me). As we move closer to Modern season, I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread. Good luck.
I just built a Ghost Council EDH deck and am familiarizing myself with the interactions. I had an interesting scenario come up.
Question:
When Generals are killed and go to the graveyard, is moving them to the command zone a replacement effect?
Question in context:
I had a Ghost Council on the field with a Grave Pact and an arbitrary sac outlet. I sac'd Ghost Council and moved it to the command zone. Does this sequence trigger Grave Pact, or does moving Ghost Council to the command zone bypass the trigger?
Please use card tags in future posts. The Forum Guidelines explain how to do that. -Carsten