I really have to chime in with the "learning curve" side here - a lot of us veteran players forget how incredibly complicated Magic is. I've been thinking about that a lot recently and concluded that basically the game is too complicated.
I once tried to teach Magic to a normal, fairly smart person and I'd rather not do that again unless I'd get paid for it. I'm not a bad teacher at all, I've been a professional English teacher and regularly teach all kinds of things at work.
The thing is that while we can examine one single ability or rule in the game and conclude that it's "simple enough" or "c'mon, even a n00b should get it!", when all this mass of rules comes together it can easily be overwhelming for a beginner. Not to mention how even experienced players are regularly stumped by all kinds of card interactions.
RickCorgan makes an excellent point about RFG - while teaching Magic you'll have to explain the difference between the graveyard and RFG by saying "It's more or less the same thing except in some advanced situations... don't worry about it for now". That kind of thing clogs up the learning and diverts the beginner's attention from what's important to learn and what not.
It's similar to the superificial and confusing difference between X damage and -X/-X effects - does anybody here have fun explaining to beginners that their Drudge Skeletons can't regenerate vs Nausea because of "state-based effects"... ? Great way to get people to enjoy your smart ass game...
I love Magic btw, I just have strong opinions on this game
Akki Avalanchers
Creature - Goblin Warrior
Sacrifice a land: Akki Avalanchers gets +2/+0 until end of turn. Play this ability only once each turn.
Other than that, I agree that the Avalanchers, Raider and Thoughts of Ruin seem like the basis of a viable deck. Only time will tell.
Oops, my bad :grin2:
Well, it makes sense... but as we're saying, there's some nice synergy going on there.
For some reason Crack the Earth got a much more positive reaction from this forum when we first saw it - seems inferior to Thoughts of Ruin to me. It will be nice to see what comes out of this... maybe Crack will even become playable in some new Akki LD deck with ToR.
Some members here are being too hard on this card, IMHO... but then that seems to be the case most of the time with new cards. I even remember some "meh" responses to Eternal Witness, of all cards.
Thoughts of Ruin seems pretty nice to me - it's probably one of those cards you just need to play with to understand properly. Especially since in the new SOK environment there'll be lots of other reasons to keep some cards in hand, which will support this card.
Just wanted to point out, anyway, that not only will your Akki Raider get huge from this, but also your Akki Avalanchers - just float the mana, then sac all your lands to it to make it 7/1 or 9/1 or whatever, then nuke. This card is nice for the Kamigawa Sligh deck...
EDIT: Also...the 'Time' aspect of Blue is one of the things [i]mostly[i/] limited to blue, and it's those cards that are definitely one of the reasons Blue has been so ridiculously overpowered over the years. Name me a non-Blue-involved combo that gives you infinite turns? or similar effect? Doubt they'd stop the well-documented hosing of blue to design an entire block that would require extensive development of one of the most powerful/abusable aspects of that color.
You may be right but then I always though "champions" and "betrayers" referred to the respective set of flip cards in the two sets. That is, the flip cards in CHK are "heroes" since they flip into stronger versions of themselves. The BOK flip cards however flip from non-spirit creatures to nasty spirits, hence "betrayers".
Kamigawa's monks don't have a unique ability, but I think that's just because R&D decided not to model them that way, not because monks in Japanese mythology are somehow less special.
Personally I think there won't be a new class but something strange will most likely happen with the spirits themselves. My guess is that spirits will be the saviours, turning away from their nasty ways; but then I haven't read the novels so I'm not qualified to guess
Of course, I'd never be crazy enough to play a Ninja deck against affinity... thinking about affinity just makes me lose all appetite for building a deck. Which is why the deck I posted above is for block constructed only, the format I prefer to the current T2.
But yes, one big reason I like Sickening Shoal and Horobi's Whisper is that they can both be played without mana. As you say, this deck is quite mana-intensive. I probably wouldn't like playing the fat ninjas if not for the Shoals... starting to love those, Wizards actually came up with a nice idea there (making us play more "fat" cards in competitive decks).
First, sorry for editing the deck after my first version - you were too fast for me Anyway people can compare your quoted list to my new list and see I made some changes to focus the deck better (it was trying to do too many things).
I considered most of the cards you mention. I had Hana Kami earlier but found I wasn't willing to have enough Arcane spells to make it worthwhile. Might still be good enough though, simply as a 1-drop spirit.
I don't know about Loam Dweller... I guess I'd test him but I'm not too optmistic. Toshiro Umezawa came to my mind too but I think he'll just be a sideshow guy trying to steal Lifespinner's thunder - those two are too big for one deck.
Lifespinner is looking like a neat little card to abuse in constructed... not T2 though since only broken cards are playable in that stupid format. As for block however, here's my idea:
Remember that Lifespinner's ability is instant, and free too - that really pushes him into the 'playable' zone IMO. That means you're going to activate him at end of turn, meaning you can still make some blocks and your opponent will have to have an instant answer in hand to your new fattie.
This version is somewhat less tempo-based (few ninjutsu weenies) and more aiming for control through loads of removal and fat ninjas. While I'd rather do the "ninja rush" deck in any other format, I just don't think CHK has good enough weenies for that, so this way's probably more viable.
It's a fun deck, all about not letting the game progress past the early stage. I guess you're hoping to send your fast Akki in for about 6-10 damage total. After that it doesn't matter if they all die to nasty samurais or Hideous Laughter, you're going to finish up the game with burn.
I think the Genju should be played as a burn spell really, preferably dropped as a surprise when you have 4 lands, as a finisher. Lava Spike really shines in this deck.
Running 4 of the God's Eye is a great idea actually - it's the land you want to sac every time so you're unlikely to be bothered by the legend rule.
How many times must you ask for advice on the Magma Jets without getting an answer?
Well, it seemed very strange to me looking at your initial decklist to see you compromise your mana base with 6 red sources (on top of 4 colorless ones) for just 2 copies of a non-essential red card. Sure, the Jet is nice, but it doesn't seem worth it that way.
Also while the interaction between Ninjutsu and First Strike is interesting, I don't think No-Dachi has any business in a metagame where you're worried about Disciples... why don't you drop the Jet and the equipment for more weenies? Also I think people are playing Echoing Truth too much without considering good ol' Unsummon, which is cheaper and bounces manlands too.
Seems like a possible inclusion in the new Akki Sligh deck... although you won't want to risk your mana base with too many colorless lands, 2 copies might be worthwhile for the occasional extra creature when you feed your Akki Avalanchers. Even a 1/1 counts as something, for Sligh's "Philosophy of Fire"... right?
Well I tested the U/W deck I posted above (just solitaire) and must say I was a bit disappointed in its inconsistency - it's easy to forget how hard it is to make weenie decks work with more than one color. It might still be doable, but the mana is a major issue.
Going mono-blue would be very cool of course! How many times have we had a mono-blue weenie deck? I see the point in Ornithopter, although I'd prefer creatures with some power; unless you see the 'thopter as a sort of Aether Vial made for ninjas, just to get your guys out cheap But ninjas plus little weenies such as Spiketail Hatchling plus early counters might work okay...
I once tried to teach Magic to a normal, fairly smart person and I'd rather not do that again unless I'd get paid for it. I'm not a bad teacher at all, I've been a professional English teacher and regularly teach all kinds of things at work.
The thing is that while we can examine one single ability or rule in the game and conclude that it's "simple enough" or "c'mon, even a n00b should get it!", when all this mass of rules comes together it can easily be overwhelming for a beginner. Not to mention how even experienced players are regularly stumped by all kinds of card interactions.
RickCorgan makes an excellent point about RFG - while teaching Magic you'll have to explain the difference between the graveyard and RFG by saying "It's more or less the same thing except in some advanced situations... don't worry about it for now". That kind of thing clogs up the learning and diverts the beginner's attention from what's important to learn and what not.
It's similar to the superificial and confusing difference between X damage and -X/-X effects - does anybody here have fun explaining to beginners that their Drudge Skeletons can't regenerate vs Nausea because of "state-based effects"... ? Great way to get people to enjoy your smart ass game...
I love Magic btw, I just have strong opinions on this game
Oops, my bad :grin2:
Well, it makes sense... but as we're saying, there's some nice synergy going on there.
For some reason Crack the Earth got a much more positive reaction from this forum when we first saw it - seems inferior to Thoughts of Ruin to me. It will be nice to see what comes out of this... maybe Crack will even become playable in some new Akki LD deck with ToR.
Thoughts of Ruin seems pretty nice to me - it's probably one of those cards you just need to play with to understand properly. Especially since in the new SOK environment there'll be lots of other reasons to keep some cards in hand, which will support this card.
Just wanted to point out, anyway, that not only will your Akki Raider get huge from this, but also your Akki Avalanchers - just float the mana, then sac all your lands to it to make it 7/1 or 9/1 or whatever, then nuke. This card is nice for the Kamigawa Sligh deck...
"So order wisely and save our Kamigawa sales!"
Sure :tongue2: ...
Mindslaver + Bringer of the White Dawn
Kamigawa's monks don't have a unique ability, but I think that's just because R&D decided not to model them that way, not because monks in Japanese mythology are somehow less special.
Personally I think there won't be a new class but something strange will most likely happen with the spirits themselves. My guess is that spirits will be the saviours, turning away from their nasty ways; but then I haven't read the novels so I'm not qualified to guess
Anyway this should probably be in /Speculation...
Of course, I'd never be crazy enough to play a Ninja deck against affinity... thinking about affinity just makes me lose all appetite for building a deck. Which is why the deck I posted above is for block constructed only, the format I prefer to the current T2.
But yes, one big reason I like Sickening Shoal and Horobi's Whisper is that they can both be played without mana. As you say, this deck is quite mana-intensive. I probably wouldn't like playing the fat ninjas if not for the Shoals... starting to love those, Wizards actually came up with a nice idea there (making us play more "fat" cards in competitive decks).
I considered most of the cards you mention. I had Hana Kami earlier but found I wasn't willing to have enough Arcane spells to make it worthwhile. Might still be good enough though, simply as a 1-drop spirit.
I don't know about Loam Dweller... I guess I'd test him but I'm not too optmistic. Toshiro Umezawa came to my mind too but I think he'll just be a sideshow guy trying to steal Lifespinner's thunder - those two are too big for one deck.
4 Ashen-Skin Zubera
4 Lifespinner
4 Thief of Hope
1 Kuro, Pitlord
1 Iname, Death Aspect
1 Iname, Life Aspect
2 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 He Who Hungers
1 Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
1 Horobi's Whisper
4 Soulless Revival
4 Commune with Nature
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
10 Swamp
8 Forest
Remember that Lifespinner's ability is instant, and free too - that really pushes him into the 'playable' zone IMO. That means you're going to activate him at end of turn, meaning you can still make some blocks and your opponent will have to have an instant answer in hand to your new fattie.
4 Soratami Cloudskater
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Mistblade Shinobi
3 Throat Slitter
2 Higure, the Still Wind
3 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
4 Horobi's Whisper
3 Consuming Vortex
3 Waterveil Cavern
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse (very nice with Ink-Eyes)
8 Island
9 Swamp
This version is somewhat less tempo-based (few ninjutsu weenies) and more aiming for control through loads of removal and fat ninjas. While I'd rather do the "ninja rush" deck in any other format, I just don't think CHK has good enough weenies for that, so this way's probably more viable.
"Philosophy of Fire", pure and simple...
It's a fun deck, all about not letting the game progress past the early stage. I guess you're hoping to send your fast Akki in for about 6-10 damage total. After that it doesn't matter if they all die to nasty samurais or Hideous Laughter, you're going to finish up the game with burn.
I think the Genju should be played as a burn spell really, preferably dropped as a surprise when you have 4 lands, as a finisher. Lava Spike really shines in this deck.
Running 4 of the God's Eye is a great idea actually - it's the land you want to sac every time so you're unlikely to be bothered by the legend rule.
Well, it seemed very strange to me looking at your initial decklist to see you compromise your mana base with 6 red sources (on top of 4 colorless ones) for just 2 copies of a non-essential red card. Sure, the Jet is nice, but it doesn't seem worth it that way.
Also while the interaction between Ninjutsu and First Strike is interesting, I don't think No-Dachi has any business in a metagame where you're worried about Disciples... why don't you drop the Jet and the equipment for more weenies? Also I think people are playing Echoing Truth too much without considering good ol' Unsummon, which is cheaper and bounces manlands too.
Going mono-blue would be very cool of course! How many times have we had a mono-blue weenie deck? I see the point in Ornithopter, although I'd prefer creatures with some power; unless you see the 'thopter as a sort of Aether Vial made for ninjas, just to get your guys out cheap
4 Mistblade Shinobi
4 Ornithopter
4 Spiketail Hatchling
2 Higure, the Still Wind
4 Mana Leak
4 Condescend
3 Hinder
4 Serum Visions
4 Thirst for Knowledge
I think we need more playable blue ninjas to make this work, and hopefully that one-drop spikeling...
Soratami Cloudskater is another possibility too, perhaps in the block version if there's enough material for it...