Spreading seas is not nearly as potent as it used to be against Valakut. I was trying it out over the weekend, and keeping them off of double green is a very unstable plan. They have green sun's to not even care about having double green.
On a side note, tell me how this sounds. It is an entirley different direction, but I'm just throwing it out there. It allowed me to at least try racing against valakut, and I had a better game against aggro.
4 drops are the top of your curve. They are your game closers, and you stop podding there. Between the adepts, birthing pods, and go for the throats persecutor should be easy enough to kill.
Reassembling skeleton can consistantly replace your 4 drops if they are delt with by allowing you to pod into 3 drops, and then 4 drops over and over again.
You can also constantly pod into 3 drops. You can make a sea gate oracle every turn, or aether adept to bounce their creatures multiple times.
Reassembling skeleton + Birthing pod = A bad JTMS...
Im going to be testing out a build a little lighter on creatures with a bit more control. I cut a metamorph because my build was already low on creatures so I could see him not having a target sometimes. I also cut a pod becuase I agree with metamorph n that 3 pods is the correct number. I have enough digging tools to find a pod, and I will only want it as a mid game threat. I hate having multiple pods, and turn 2 pod is not something I am capable of. I added 2 consume the meeks for the horrible aggro matchup. I should be able to find one in a timley manner, and if I do those matchups will be a breeze. I also switched out my 6 drops a bit.
4-Mana leak
4-Explore
4-Go for the throat
4-Preordain
3-Pod
2-Consume the meek
I played quite a bit yesterday using some of the ideas talked about here.
This is what I was using
4- Cobra
4- Explore
4- Preordain
4- Mana Leak
4- Go for the throat
4- Pod
2- Sea Gate
2- Entomber
2- Metamorph
2- Slime
2- Sphinx
1- Grave Titan
25 Land
I was playing online, so I got matched up against several different decks. I played 2 UB control builds, a soul sisters, and a bad vampires deck. I also played a Bant pod mirror.
UB control is no problem at all. I ran out sea gate oracles, cast explores, and preordains right into their open mana all day. As I was saying on the first page, nobody wants to trade with any of this stuff. Counter my explore? Kill my oracle? This was my main advantage over UB. We can explore out tar pits, and just go beatdown mode with those, and our mediocre creatures. Exarch is a must counter, and I never cared at all. If they ever tap out for anything threatening then so do we, and we take the game.
Soul sisters was an issue. I did not have enough removal, and we run no mass removal at all. Eventually their pridemates, and ascendants get too large for us to deal with. I took 1 of the games, but it was not the easiest matchup.
Unfortunatley, I lost to a pretty terrible vampires deck. I had out oracles, I used removal, but it was not enough. I think the lack of a sweeper, again, cost me a match.
The mirror was actually an easy match. I had way more sifting, and cantrips than him, and could find pods, creatures, and control when he had nothing in his hand.
After playing with this list here are my thoughts.
Explore is amazing, and I was very impressed with how it worked when I focused on podding from my 4, and 5 drops like we already talked about. It was also great considering it sneaks around the inherit weakness of cobra being a huge removal magnet. If I could chain together 2 explores I would already be in 6 drop range, and still able to hold counter mana open.
We need a sweeper. With this controlling of a build I think we need to run Black sun's zenith or consume the meek or something. It would play very well with the deck as a whole. We dont care as much about our mana dorks if we try and start a chain from the 4 mana cost area. Consume the meek seems especially appealing because we can pod our own guys out of its range. I'd like to find room for 2 copies of some black sweeper if possible. That would shore up our aggro problems by itself. Sea gate oracle would act like a wall of omens, replace itself, and force an overextension into our sweeper.
I have yet to play a valakut with the recent list, but I'm sure it will be tough.
Here are some sideboard options I was considering that seem useful across various bad matchups.
Spreading seas- seems great against both twin and valakut. Twin stays off double red, and valakut stays off double green. Seems almost good enought to main deck, but I can't find room. The older BUG lists main decked it during valakut's rein.
Spellskite- Wall vs. Aggro while also protecting from burn finishes. Combo hoser vs. Twin, and might also keep valakuts off your face long enough to win.
Memoricide- Kills Valakut, and Twin we should run it since we are in black.
Overall, the deck seems to prey on dedicated control decks by giving them meaningless things to interact with. I had played a twin deck with my slightly older list, and it was an easy match as well with many of the same weaknesses as control. Aggro is a problem, and valakut seems to be a problem as well. Seems like we have at least 1/2 of the perceived new metagame under control at the moment.
@ silent violence
I did find myself podding into that grave titan over sphinx most of the time
In a bleak situation against any aggro deck like you describe I would want a wurmcoil engine. However, even if I would take a wurmcoil engine over something else I do feel a sphinx would be completley fine, and so would a grave titan. Sphinx would kill anything they have on block, and draw into more answers. Grave titan would clog up the ground so much that I wouldn't care what they had anymore (except maybe kalastria).
Against Valakut, as ryan said, I would want frost titan always no matter what. Frost titan is the best answer to most large game ending threats because he locks them down.
All of this being said I dont even think I would alter my list. I understand the want for certain answers, but I would rather have a consistent deck than rely on several 1 of 6 drops to show up at the correct times. It is not possible to have both. Against vampires, or RDW your creatures will die so how will you pod into something that is an answer? I prefer to draw into an answer, OR to pod into an answer.
After sideboard, I plan to replace entomber exarchs with obstinate baloths, and possibly all my sphinxes with wurmcoils.
Against Valakut I want to try a spreading seas/ memoricide sideboard plan that is similar, and very consistent.
@ Metamorph
The list I'm going to try after work will have 4x Go for the throats. We cannot skimp on instant speed removal at the moment. With exarch twin threatening a turn 3.5 kill we must have removal in hand just in case, and killing a primeval titan will be just as important. I didn't have too tough of a time finding room.
I'm also going to try out the explores over birds, and preordains over see beyonds. I can definatley see the argument for both, but I have less games played with explore/preordain so I need to try it out.
@ ryansolid
Thanks for the thread sooooo much. I couldn't really partake in anything going on in the other pod thread. I've been trying to get a BUG contol pod deck going since NPH was released, and the discussion going on here is very welcome.
I have played with Sheoldred, and she is every bit as powerful as anyone would expect. She has won me many games, but I want to try a list without her for a little bit to see if she is, in fact a "win more". I have been impressed with her, but I'm going to try and win some games with my 4/6 flyers. See beyond seems alot better when she is in your hand I agree.
I agree, we don't need more board related card advantage, but that is the point of sphinx, all the cantrips, and card selection.
We will run out of control spells eventually, and that is the point of sphinx, and card selection like preordain, and oracles.
This is a control list using birthing pod for card adavantage, and not a toolbox deck.
I have tried both versions, trust me. Personally I love the consistancy of the most recent lists in here, and when pod does not show up, or is dealt with I have a very consistent, and powerful deck.
Pod into sphinx 1 time, and tell me when you draw all those cards, and have a hand full of interactive spells that he is just a 4/6 flyer.
The 6 drops are personal preference, and I can see the appeal of grave titan. I may replace frost titan with grave titan just for some raw power. I would rather leave wurmcoil engine, and massacre wurm in the sideboard.
I just got sick of playing the tool box version, and not getting pod. I would have hands of land, mana dorks, cadaver imp or something, and maybe a narrow massacre wurm.
Ryan, try this out. I made a mock up of the BUG shell including the 4 removal spells which I agree are needed. It is the list I just posted. It only runs 24 lands, but I have not had issues so far.
Metamorph, I really like that list, and feel like that is the direction I want to take. The 6 drops are a matter of preference, and I love playing with the sphinx at the moment. I'm gonna try this list out when I get home. I wonder how the slimmed down pod aspect of the deck will play alongside all the cantrips, but it is at least worth testing. I like having 4 of the 6 drops to ramp out like traditional BUG control. Idk if I will like cutting the birds, but podding off of them always made me angry anyway
The reason I did not like posting in the other forum is because I felt everyone was taking the toolbox route which to me seems far too reliant on the pod. If I'm gonna play a toolbox deck I would rather play with fauna shaman, and not have any converted mana cost restrictions to what I fetch up. The pod seems to be best at creating huge momentum for as little as 1 mana per turn. It plays similar to a planeswalker like metamorph was saying in that it just has a very powerful effect each turn, before it ultimates.
This was my other version which you can goldfish on this website.
When I ran Trinket mage in a previous list I did include a hex parasite. I never got much use out of it, but it would be a nice option to have.
@ryansolid
I'm gonna try out the tinket mage package if only to pull off the 2 seperate chains to copy an acidic slime with a metamorph. That sounds great, and I too have won many games just off of mana denial. I was considering some sort of spreading seas sideboard plan (could even end up main deck) against valakut once it rises in popularity again. That's also one of the main reasons slime into frosty is so powerful.
I'm gonna add in a trinket mage and a key again. I think i'll keep the 1 Elixer, and 1 Hex parasite sideboard.
Deceiver exarch accomplishes the same thing as the trinket mage package for 1 turn. It has been discussed elsewhere. Not sure which is better. There is also an article on SCG today where Levin posted a Bant Pod list, and says the trinket mage+key interaction was important to the deck. I am not currently running it, but I may put it back in to test it a little further. I wouldn't run elixir main deck for the reason stated here, but I see no issue siding it in vs. aggro if only for the lifegain, especially when already running the trinket mages.
I like the BUG pod version much better than any other color variants. My list is similar to OP's. The "Next level" idea of deckbuilding is to play a bunch of creatures that while may not be the best, give you some sort of value. This kindof blanks the opponents removal, and interaction like counter spells becuase your creatures simply are not that good. Birthing pod multiplies this small advantage created by a sub par creature by turning it into another one, usually with a better effect.
I've been impressed with mana leak because once the pod is in play they pretty much can't win without dealing with it. Podding into sea gate oracles, and consecrated sphinxes fill your hand with more counters, and removal. It plays very well as a control deck.
I think garruk may be welcome here also. I remember some article where Wescoe or somebody said garruk was an ample replacement for Jace 2.0 in BUG control if you didnt have the jaces. Well, now that jace is banned he may be good in here. Plus, overrunning with all our terrible 2/2 creatures is a great alternate win con. He also helps ramp in sphinx out of your hand.
I also like your inclusion of see beyond. It has been great in my testing. Shuffling away those mid game birds, and cobras is great.
Here is my list for reference.
I do not run as many 1 ofs, and I prefer to bring in the niche creatures from the board. I like consistancy without the pod, and I've played many games without seeing the pod.
I like your list, it looks similar to the one I posted a while back.
This deck needs blue in my opinion, especially with all these 1 of chains everyone is running. With such a heavy lean on the pod you need to be able to have some sort of card selection, or you will be at the mercy of your topdecks. This is not a deck you want to be topdecking with because all your creatures have such a specific role for the most part. Jace, and oracle smooth things out, and play with the pod well. Jace sitting in play next to the pod is game breaking, and like I stated earlier it feels like playing with multiple planeswalkers.
Btw, Creeping Tar pit has overperformed for me, try a few of them out if you like
4x Birthing Pod
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Jace, the mind sculptor
2x Go for the throat
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Darkslick shores
5x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Island
I've tried many other versions, and this one seems to do it for me. I did not like the inconsistancy of so many 1 ofs, that seemed useless in my opening hand. I dont always get birthing pod, so this list runs fairly consistantly without it in play. I grab the match specific 1 ofs out of the board if I need to. Simply ramping into my 4-6 cost creatures is a decent win con on it's own. Birthing pod almost seems like another planeswalker in this deck because it just does something relevant until it hits it's ultimate (Seoldred). JTMS is insane in this deck (as in every deck....) because he sets up locks in different ways. Acidic slime being jace bounced to your hand locks them out of colors. Exarch being bounced in combination with fateseal makes them never play anything relevant. And the bounce along with massacre wurm, into sheoldred is an insane board lock. I also had issues with running out my hand which is why I ended up playing blue. Let me know what you think. I recently removed a skinrender for another metamorph which I may change back.
I run an acid web spider sideboard vs. caw, and it isn't a bad idea. I cut 1 of the 3 slimes from the main for the spider. I played against caw last FNM, and the acid web spider litterally won me game 3. It forces them to overextend straight into a massacre wurm off your pod. It also kills emeria angels on block. All slime does is blow up a peice of equipment, but so dos the spider. 1 card out of 15 in the board is not bad to devote to such a powerful card vs. caw.
On a side note, tell me how this sounds. It is an entirley different direction, but I'm just throwing it out there. It allowed me to at least try racing against valakut, and I had a better game against aggro.
4-Birds
4-Cobra
4-Persecutor
2-Thrun
2-Aether adept
4-Sea gate oracle
4-pod
4-GftT
4-Mana Leak
2-Garruk
2-Reassembling skeleton
4 drops are the top of your curve. They are your game closers, and you stop podding there. Between the adepts, birthing pods, and go for the throats persecutor should be easy enough to kill.
Reassembling skeleton can consistantly replace your 4 drops if they are delt with by allowing you to pod into 3 drops, and then 4 drops over and over again.
You can also constantly pod into 3 drops. You can make a sea gate oracle every turn, or aether adept to bounce their creatures multiple times.
Reassembling skeleton + Birthing pod = A bad JTMS...
4-Mana leak
4-Explore
4-Go for the throat
4-Preordain
3-Pod
2-Consume the meek
4-Cobra
2-Sea gate oracle
2-Entomber
1-Metamorph
2-Slime
2-Grave Titan
1-Frost titan
25 land (I may go down to 24, and add another 6 drop)
SB
2- Skinrender
3- Obstinate baloth
4- Spreading Seas
3- Memoricide
1- Metamorph
1- Frost titan
1- Wurmcoil engine
This is what I was using
4- Cobra
4- Explore
4- Preordain
4- Mana Leak
4- Go for the throat
4- Pod
2- Sea Gate
2- Entomber
2- Metamorph
2- Slime
2- Sphinx
1- Grave Titan
25 Land
I was playing online, so I got matched up against several different decks. I played 2 UB control builds, a soul sisters, and a bad vampires deck. I also played a Bant pod mirror.
UB control is no problem at all. I ran out sea gate oracles, cast explores, and preordains right into their open mana all day. As I was saying on the first page, nobody wants to trade with any of this stuff. Counter my explore? Kill my oracle? This was my main advantage over UB. We can explore out tar pits, and just go beatdown mode with those, and our mediocre creatures. Exarch is a must counter, and I never cared at all. If they ever tap out for anything threatening then so do we, and we take the game.
Soul sisters was an issue. I did not have enough removal, and we run no mass removal at all. Eventually their pridemates, and ascendants get too large for us to deal with. I took 1 of the games, but it was not the easiest matchup.
Unfortunatley, I lost to a pretty terrible vampires deck. I had out oracles, I used removal, but it was not enough. I think the lack of a sweeper, again, cost me a match.
The mirror was actually an easy match. I had way more sifting, and cantrips than him, and could find pods, creatures, and control when he had nothing in his hand.
After playing with this list here are my thoughts.
Explore is amazing, and I was very impressed with how it worked when I focused on podding from my 4, and 5 drops like we already talked about. It was also great considering it sneaks around the inherit weakness of cobra being a huge removal magnet. If I could chain together 2 explores I would already be in 6 drop range, and still able to hold counter mana open.
We need a sweeper. With this controlling of a build I think we need to run Black sun's zenith or consume the meek or something. It would play very well with the deck as a whole. We dont care as much about our mana dorks if we try and start a chain from the 4 mana cost area. Consume the meek seems especially appealing because we can pod our own guys out of its range. I'd like to find room for 2 copies of some black sweeper if possible. That would shore up our aggro problems by itself. Sea gate oracle would act like a wall of omens, replace itself, and force an overextension into our sweeper.
I have yet to play a valakut with the recent list, but I'm sure it will be tough.
Here are some sideboard options I was considering that seem useful across various bad matchups.
Spreading seas- seems great against both twin and valakut. Twin stays off double red, and valakut stays off double green. Seems almost good enought to main deck, but I can't find room. The older BUG lists main decked it during valakut's rein.
Spellskite- Wall vs. Aggro while also protecting from burn finishes. Combo hoser vs. Twin, and might also keep valakuts off your face long enough to win.
Memoricide- Kills Valakut, and Twin we should run it since we are in black.
Overall, the deck seems to prey on dedicated control decks by giving them meaningless things to interact with. I had played a twin deck with my slightly older list, and it was an easy match as well with many of the same weaknesses as control. Aggro is a problem, and valakut seems to be a problem as well. Seems like we have at least 1/2 of the perceived new metagame under control at the moment.
@ silent violence
I did find myself podding into that grave titan over sphinx most of the time
Sorry for misreading
In a bleak situation against any aggro deck like you describe I would want a wurmcoil engine. However, even if I would take a wurmcoil engine over something else I do feel a sphinx would be completley fine, and so would a grave titan. Sphinx would kill anything they have on block, and draw into more answers. Grave titan would clog up the ground so much that I wouldn't care what they had anymore (except maybe kalastria).
Against Valakut, as ryan said, I would want frost titan always no matter what. Frost titan is the best answer to most large game ending threats because he locks them down.
All of this being said I dont even think I would alter my list. I understand the want for certain answers, but I would rather have a consistent deck than rely on several 1 of 6 drops to show up at the correct times. It is not possible to have both. Against vampires, or RDW your creatures will die so how will you pod into something that is an answer? I prefer to draw into an answer, OR to pod into an answer.
After sideboard, I plan to replace entomber exarchs with obstinate baloths, and possibly all my sphinxes with wurmcoils.
Against Valakut I want to try a spreading seas/ memoricide sideboard plan that is similar, and very consistent.
@ Metamorph
The list I'm going to try after work will have 4x Go for the throats. We cannot skimp on instant speed removal at the moment. With exarch twin threatening a turn 3.5 kill we must have removal in hand just in case, and killing a primeval titan will be just as important. I didn't have too tough of a time finding room.
I'm also going to try out the explores over birds, and preordains over see beyonds. I can definatley see the argument for both, but I have less games played with explore/preordain so I need to try it out.
@ ryansolid
Thanks for the thread sooooo much. I couldn't really partake in anything going on in the other pod thread. I've been trying to get a BUG contol pod deck going since NPH was released, and the discussion going on here is very welcome.
I have played with Sheoldred, and she is every bit as powerful as anyone would expect. She has won me many games, but I want to try a list without her for a little bit to see if she is, in fact a "win more". I have been impressed with her, but I'm going to try and win some games with my 4/6 flyers. See beyond seems alot better when she is in your hand I agree.
I agree, we don't need more board related card advantage, but that is the point of sphinx, all the cantrips, and card selection.
We will run out of control spells eventually, and that is the point of sphinx, and card selection like preordain, and oracles.
This is a control list using birthing pod for card adavantage, and not a toolbox deck.
I have tried both versions, trust me. Personally I love the consistancy of the most recent lists in here, and when pod does not show up, or is dealt with I have a very consistent, and powerful deck.
Pod into sphinx 1 time, and tell me when you draw all those cards, and have a hand full of interactive spells that he is just a 4/6 flyer.
The 6 drops are personal preference, and I can see the appeal of grave titan. I may replace frost titan with grave titan just for some raw power. I would rather leave wurmcoil engine, and massacre wurm in the sideboard.
I just got sick of playing the tool box version, and not getting pod. I would have hands of land, mana dorks, cadaver imp or something, and maybe a narrow massacre wurm.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bugpod-20/
4- Explore
4- Preordain
4- Mana Leak
4- Removal
4- Pod
4- Cobra
2- Sea gate oracle
2- Entomber
2- Slime
3- Consecrated Sphinx
1- Frost titan
The reason I did not like posting in the other forum is because I felt everyone was taking the toolbox route which to me seems far too reliant on the pod. If I'm gonna play a toolbox deck I would rather play with fauna shaman, and not have any converted mana cost restrictions to what I fetch up. The pod seems to be best at creating huge momentum for as little as 1 mana per turn. It plays similar to a planeswalker like metamorph was saying in that it just has a very powerful effect each turn, before it ultimates.
This was my other version which you can goldfish on this website.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bug-pod3/
@ryansolid
I'm gonna try out the tinket mage package if only to pull off the 2 seperate chains to copy an acidic slime with a metamorph. That sounds great, and I too have won many games just off of mana denial. I was considering some sort of spreading seas sideboard plan (could even end up main deck) against valakut once it rises in popularity again. That's also one of the main reasons slime into frosty is so powerful.
I'm gonna add in a trinket mage and a key again. I think i'll keep the 1 Elixer, and 1 Hex parasite sideboard.
Maybe something like this?
4- Birds
4- Cobra
2- Sea gate
1- Trinket Mage
2- Entomber exarch
2- Metamorph
2- Acidic Slime
2- Frost Titan
1- Consecrated Sphinx
1- Sheoldred
1- Key
2- Garruk
4- Removal
4- mana leak
4- Birthing pod
SB
4- Spreading Seas
3- Obstinate Baloth
2- Wurmcoil engine
1- Elixir
1- Hex parasite
3- Memoricide
2- Flashfreeze
I've been impressed with mana leak because once the pod is in play they pretty much can't win without dealing with it. Podding into sea gate oracles, and consecrated sphinxes fill your hand with more counters, and removal. It plays very well as a control deck.
I think garruk may be welcome here also. I remember some article where Wescoe or somebody said garruk was an ample replacement for Jace 2.0 in BUG control if you didnt have the jaces. Well, now that jace is banned he may be good in here. Plus, overrunning with all our terrible 2/2 creatures is a great alternate win con. He also helps ramp in sphinx out of your hand.
I also like your inclusion of see beyond. It has been great in my testing. Shuffling away those mid game birds, and cobras is great.
Here is my list for reference.
I do not run as many 1 ofs, and I prefer to bring in the niche creatures from the board. I like consistancy without the pod, and I've played many games without seeing the pod.
4- Birds
4- Cobra
3- Sea gate oracle
2- Entomber exarch
2- Metamorph
3- Acidic slime
2- Frost titan
2- Consecrated Sphinx
4- Birthing Pod
4- Mana Leak
3- Go for the throat
1- Dismember
2- Garruk
25- Land (including tar pit, the best land of all time)
I like your list, it looks similar to the one I posted a while back.
This deck needs blue in my opinion, especially with all these 1 of chains everyone is running. With such a heavy lean on the pod you need to be able to have some sort of card selection, or you will be at the mercy of your topdecks. This is not a deck you want to be topdecking with because all your creatures have such a specific role for the most part. Jace, and oracle smooth things out, and play with the pod well. Jace sitting in play next to the pod is game breaking, and like I stated earlier it feels like playing with multiple planeswalkers.
Btw, Creeping Tar pit has overperformed for me, try a few of them out if you like
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Lotus Cobra
3x Acidic Slime
2x Entomber Exarch
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Frost Titan
2x Sea Gate Oracle
1x Massacre Wurm
1x Sheoldred, Whispering one
4x Birthing Pod
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Jace, the mind sculptor
2x Go for the throat
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Darkslick shores
5x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Island
I've tried many other versions, and this one seems to do it for me. I did not like the inconsistancy of so many 1 ofs, that seemed useless in my opening hand. I dont always get birthing pod, so this list runs fairly consistantly without it in play. I grab the match specific 1 ofs out of the board if I need to. Simply ramping into my 4-6 cost creatures is a decent win con on it's own. Birthing pod almost seems like another planeswalker in this deck because it just does something relevant until it hits it's ultimate (Seoldred). JTMS is insane in this deck (as in every deck....) because he sets up locks in different ways. Acidic slime being jace bounced to your hand locks them out of colors. Exarch being bounced in combination with fateseal makes them never play anything relevant. And the bounce along with massacre wurm, into sheoldred is an insane board lock. I also had issues with running out my hand which is why I ended up playing blue. Let me know what you think. I recently removed a skinrender for another metamorph which I may change back.