Magic Market Index for July 13th, 2018
 
Magic Market Index for July 6th, 2018
 
Treasure Cruisin' Modern UR Control
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    The humans matchup is bad to about even, depending on your configuration. But I think you need to have an actively GOOD matchup to make Shadow worth it.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    Yeah, I think Traverse is significantly better than GDS because of the threat issue. Not that I think that Traverse is good... but I think GDS is worse. Even Ben Friedman said he doesn't think GDS has a good matchup in the to 10 decks of the metagame, where about half seem favored for Traverse. The wrong half, perhaps, but half.

    I hear ya on Decay. But right now I think Traverse Shadow need more cheap removal to justify itself, TBH. If you can't beat humans, I don't think you should be playing the deck.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    Quote from tjd2191 »
    It sounds like what you're advocating is essentially the old suicide zoo lists? Rather than playing a ton of interaction, just go faster and play similar to infect?


    Maybe not that far. I'm still thinking the Traverse shell, just tweaking the flex slots + interaction to optimally fight the format. And probably getting a Grim Flayer in there too just to make sure we have the early pressure. Suizoo requires a whole lot of different things in order to support the combo-centric nature of the deck.

    Not that I don't think Suizoo is worth exploring. I did try it in a weekly last Wed, and crushed - 4-1, only losing to burn in the last round on some pretty poor draws. It still felt pretty powerful. The one MTGO league I ran it through resulted in a 2-3 though, so maybe it was just the level of competition :D. In any case, I think Suizoo operates differently enough than the Traverse/Grixis/Mardu/whatever shadow lists that the above reasoning doesn't really apply. The proper comparison isn't Humans, it's Infect, Hollow One, and Burn. Aggro/Combo with light disruption elements.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    Quote from Velthov »
    At the SCG event (Team Open and Modern Classic) past weekend, two 4c Death's Shadow lists made a good showing.

    AJ Kerrigan - 9th Place at StarCityGames.com Team Open on 7/14/2018
    Stephen Snelson - 9th Place at StarCityGames.com Classic on 7/15/2018

    I somewhat like the 75 of Aj Kerrigan better. Looking to the top 16 of the classic portion makes me feel that Stubborn Denial needs to be in the sideboard as it does not have an awful lot of good matchups. However, the team portion was full with control decks! What are your thoughts?


    If everyone is playing control, I want to be as far away from Death's Shadow as possible to be honest.

    Quote from EctoMark »
    Postboard we tend to have a lot more red spells, so it's less of an issue. I hate making that gamble mainboard, especially when I'm not convinced that I prefer Bolt to Push/Decay against the meta at large.


    I largely agree, but think this puts us in a catch-22. If humans is a big enough % of the metagame, we want bolt and not Decay (though Push is still fine). If it's not, then that probably means control decks are prominent, which means we probably shouldn't be playing a Shadow deck.

    There's another pseudo-catch 22 here. In many metagames, Humans does a better job of doing what the Shadow decks do: decently fast clock + disruption to beat a wide swathe of unfair decks in the format. The reason Humans is better than Shadow at this is not necessarily how well it does in those matchups, but how well it does in other matchups - it can steal games against the midrange decks more easily IMO. The exceptions to this involve Tron, which allegedly Humans isn't fast enough to have that great of a matchup against, and aggro decks, where Shadow can get an edge just by having a pile of removal. So for Shadow to justify itself, it has to be good against big mana and/or fast aggro, including humans. And beating humans specifically necessitates Lightning Bolt, again. While beating big mana necessitates other deckbuilding decisions, like countermagic.

    Honestly, I have trouble seeing how Death's Shadow can fit into the meta given all of this. I mean, if you don't care about maximizing your win percentage at the expensive of literally every thing else, it's still a fine choice (like many decks in modern), but I think it's unlikely that the stars align and Shadow is a legit tier 1 deck.

    That said, IMO the most likely possibility is something that shoves in on TBR and tries to kill everyone, aggro, big mana, even midrage decks, ASAP, while potentially cutting blue. It'll still have plenty of trouble with midrange and control decks, but maybe that's enough to win the aggro and big mana matchups at the same time (while still doing its thing against spell-based combo), which does a better job of justifying the deck as something to play instead of humans. Maybe this even means cutting some discard spells! I'm not sure.

    Edit to add: the other spot where Shadow can justify itself over Humans is specifically against KCI. Humans has a medium to slightly unfavorable KCI matchup, it turns out, because of stuff like EE and pyrite spellbomb and Ghirapur Aether Grid. But Shadow dunks on that deck, especially if it keeps the countermagic in the 75.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    Yes, 100%. It is wildly underrated by almost everyone.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    the suicide list impressed me. literally replacing the 4 probes from the old suizoo lists with land + 3 random cards and it's still good. I have some ideas to try in that shell.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    I'm pretty much off Looting after trying it. We have a lot of trouble profitably casting it early without something to discard for value, which kills it for me. I think the core of the deck is basically this:



    That leaves 3 slots to play with, though you could also tweak the removal suite. But right now Bolt is really valuable because of Humans, and Decay feels slow and clunky. Options for the last 3 slots: 1) 1-3 Stubborn Denial of course, but maybe we don't want blue at all, 2) 1-2 Grim Flayer to get more threats and fuel delirium. 2 seems like a stretch, but maybe 1, 3) more removal - another push or bolt is reasonable, but a Tarfire might also be worth it. 4) a traversable haymaker. Bedlam Reveler is my #1 here, but it seems like more of a SB card, 5) planeswalkers - 1-2 LOTV and/or 1 LtlH, 6) more TBR.

    My prefered options are: 1) 2 Stub, 1 TBR, 2) 1 Flayer, 1 TBR, 1 removal spell, maybe a Tarfire. 1) is old reliable, 2) is experimental, removing blue from the deck entirely and being as aggressive as possible. I might give it a shot soon, but first I gotta try the suicide zoo build that Daryl Ayers just 5-0ed a league with.

    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    I'm not a big fan of Rampager either. I could see it in certain metagames where pushing through chump blockers is super important, but I don't think that's where we are at.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    Is Watery Grave worth the SB slot? I'd rather have -1 Stomping Ground, +1 Watery Grave MD, then open up a SB slot for something else. Maybe some GY hate, given what you already have. Nihil Spellbomb if you want a bonus card against Mardu, Surgical Extraction if you want a bonus card against KCI.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    FWIW Shattering Spree is basically irrelevant against KCI - you need instant speed artifact removal. Dispossess would be interesting if 1) KCI was everywhere, since that's the only deck I could imagine wanting the card against, and 2) we were about the same speed or slower than KCI. But as it stands? Unlikely that it merits SB slots.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    Quote from Etoroguy »
    Hi everyone! I am considering buying into DS Jund. What are your thoughts on running straight jund with BBE as curve topper/gas? Or is stubborn denial just to important, even with 7-8 discard spells?


    Quote from whocansay »
    Pretty much the latter. This has been discussed quite a bit in this thread, but it basically comes down to the fact that if you want to grind, GDS and regular Jund are better options.

    Yes, Stub is that good in the matchups where it's crucial for a win.

    BBE into Bauble / TBR is also a pretty miserable experience.


    Also, Shadow decks just aren't the best set up for playing a longer, grindier game. When you put yourself at such a low life total, the more turns you play the more time you give the opponent to steal a win with a random Colonnade hit, or a bolt, or bolt + snap + bolt, or going wide enough to alpha strike past your couple of blockers, especially with a manland activation or a haste creature like your opponent's BBE. If you really want to grind, it's probably best to move off Death's Shadow. (But it's modern... you should never want to grind.)


    On an unrelated note, I tried swapping out the Manamorphoses yesterday to test a build with Flayer, Snapcaster, the 3rd Stub and a Looting. Didn't really get enough games in to comment on most of them but the Snapcaster was just god-awful. I realized it's the only card in the entire deck that is not keepable on its own merit in your opening hand. It's too slow for the meta, runs counter to our gameplan and I never wanted to see it when I did.


    Yes, exactly! There's a reason legacy Delver doesn't play Snapcaster. We shouldn't play it for the same reasons, plus it's hard (or impossible!) for us to flash back blue spells with it.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    Quote from S4t »
    \
    <snip>
    Quote from whocansay »
    The best card against Humans is Bolt.


    1) Bolt 2) Lavamancer 3) Radiant Flames

    Definitely in that order.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    Yeah, the only way i'm interested in a 3rd red source is if I cut the blue altogether.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    I'm also gonna try a 1 of Bedlam Reveler as the haymaker out of the board. Something I've always been interested in but never tried because I wanted the second U source bad enough to not have two R sources.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Death's Shadow Jund
    I think the answer comes down to metagame shares. I'm not worried about having a Watery Grave in the MD that is basically just a swamp in G1s, at least until I see a compelling reason to have white in the 75 instead of blue. So it comes down to: against the metagame you expect, how often is Stub good? Or more pointedly, against the top tables of the metagame you expect, how often is Stub good?

    That said, the list I'm thinking of sleeving up at a weekly on Monday still has 2 Stubs. I just changed the removal mix - cutting Decays for Bolts basically. I also shaved a removal spell and a Manamorphose for Lootings just to try them.
    Posted in: Midrange
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