I am also certain that they didn't intend Skullclamp to be the format warping powerhouse that it was. I am sure they didn't expect the artifacts lands to get banned for being too broken. However they printed them with those wordings anyway. The best cards are the ones who bend or break rules. Those are the ones that should be in the cube. They should be played that way as well.
I think what he meant that at the time Thawing Glaciers couldn't fetch two lands. Only because of a later change in how the game works does it allow the previous wordings to fetch two lands. With skullclamp, its power may be too high but it works exactly as it was intended and how its wording intends. Thawing Glaciers "fetching two lands" results from the haphazard wordings that were prevalent before things became more organized in the 6th edition era.
At least I think thats the intent, others who played at the time can correct me on this.
Nope. The rules don't limit what infect can go on. The only references to particular objects with infect refer to the objects as "sources" (of damage).
Here are the rules for Infect for reference:
702.87. Infect
702.87a Infect is a static ability.
702.87b Damage dealt to a player by a source with infect doesn't cause that player to lose life. Rather, it causes the player to get that many poison counters. See rule 119.3.
702.87c Damage dealt to a creature by a source with infect isn't marked on that creature. Rather, it causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature. See rule 119.3.
And so on.
Compare that to an ability like flying that can only be used on creatures:
702.9b A creature with flying can't be blocked except by creatures with flying and/or reach. A creature with flying can block a creature with or without flying. (See rule 509, "Declare Blockers Step," and rule 702.15, "Reach.")
DerBK is correct about spells having wither, though I think the only one that had it naturally is Puncture Blast.
Its true that it can. More to the point though is that it probably won't be. I remember Mark Rosewater and LaPille talking about how they wanted to limit the ways that plays could get infect damage outside of combat. I don't think they'd print what is essentially 1 mana "Deal 4 damage to target player." that can't be counteracted by life gain.
Maybe if it only targets creatures, but at that point... its just wither.
I think damage on the stack was better for the game than the new way, and more elegant since nearly everything else in magic used the stack.
Actually, if memory serves me, Damage was actually a exception rather than business as normal. It was the only time that non-spell non-ability went on the stack. It was also the only time a game action went on the stack. Unlike the following which do not use the stack: Untapping, Drawing, Declaring attackers, Declaring blockers, and removing damage and effects from creatures eot.
If you look at it that way Damage stacking is a bit of an aberration.
I find it interesting to note that, for whatever degree Glissa's corrpution, she has not been given the infect mechanic, which seems to be something of a label among Phyrexian creatures, especially in this set, as opposed to last block. It may not mean anything but it could be a sign of degrees between those that have been compleated but cannot pass the infection and those that can.
Personally I think the disjunction of win/lose a bit misleading especially in the case of a long running serial which Magic, in essence, is. What most likely happen will be ambigious, e.g. Mirran will fend of the Phyrexians but not be able to remove the taint resulting in the Phryrexians either being freed into the universe at large (giving them the possibility of return at a later date in new forms) or possibly resulting in the amputation of a part of the plane. Regardless, I doubt their will be any sort of definitive good or bad, either for the Mirrodan plane or the Phyrexians.
Search your library for a card, exile it, then shuffle your library. Any opponent may have you put a card from your exiled zone into your hand. If no play does, you draw three cards.
or
Search your library for a card, exile it face down. Then shuffle your library. Any opponent may have you put that card into your hand. If no player does reveal the exiled card(to rub it in their face when your bluff works) and draw three cards.
Both of my versons are more interesting.
In all fairness though it was probably more designed for multiplayer where you can conspire with an opponent. Since only one opponent needs to give the ascent it would allow the two of you to wreck some third party by tutoring up a necessary answer. One of those political cards they are trying to print these days.
A theoretical question, but with the printing of Elspeth Tirel 2.0 do you think that there will be a point where you want to avoid putting planeswalkers in for non-planeswalkers? How many planeswalkers should be in a color before that happens? Because it seems that by percentage the majority of planeswalkers that have been printed have found space in cube, but if the trend continues planeswalkers might be to numerous. It might be something to consider more for casual cubes that want to refine the experience in a certain direction (maybe where having two or three planewalkers in a deck is rare) rather than power cubes that are more oriented towards the best cards.
Well the thing to remember is that this leyline doesn't just hose RDW. It hoses Jace2.0, and ANY Card that targets players.
Yeah... but its a dead card if a deck avoids doing such. Even if a deck has some cards that do target you, it might never end up being relevant. I mean, Jund variants have already been dabbling in blightning-less builds and those that still run them can easily side them out without loosing massive power (after all by keeping in the Leyline without blighting your opponent is causing themselves card disadvantage since the card is dead), Jace is still a card drawing machine, Gideon still assassinates and swings, Elspeth is completely unaffected, meaning its not great against a lot of the Planewalker builds out there.
There in lies the problem with the card... it can easily be a trap. Much like the baneslayer sideboarding plan, you need to figure out what you opponents decks is actually doing. Can you afford to keep it in against Jund because they "should" have blightning? Will the Jund player assume your are taking it out? If so you might leave it in... but if they take their blightnings out or never had them the card is dead.
The card has a powerful effect, but the decks it hurt can play around it and make it dead... which might lead people to take it out... thus making their face-bolts and blightnings very very live again.
Further, people have mentioned actively mulliganing for this card, which is a trap in and of itself. People might think it a security blanket for bad hands, causing them to get steamrolled by Bloodbraids or Ball Lightnings or Vengevines or what have you.
My main point about the card, is that it has a powerful effect, but its not a crippling effect. We don't have decks like ANT in standard that NEED to target the other player. They might prefer it but it can be avoid, and if they can avoided it the card becomes dead.
I am not saying the card is weak, don't get me wrong. It will have an effect on the meta... but I don't think it will shatter any decks or anything. Further, its actually very skill intensive since you need to know what your opponents has both maindeck and sideboard, meaning just putting this in a deck without knowledge or practice will often make your deck worse.
I think there is a bit of an over estimation of the devastation this will wreck. Especially in the baseless speculation of how it combines with Kor Firewalker to completely seal out reds viability. Unless a deck can afford to spend large chunks of its side board on the RDW match up than i don't think the two will form a powerful tag team.
Also, M11 also included some mono-red evolutions within it. Chandras Outrage can kill walls and burn the player, while combustion can kill the previously game ending baneslayer that would force Red to two for one itself. Other cards like the cyclops can put Red on a more permanent oriented bent than previously.
Also, speculation on how red will be hurt post alara rotation, is baseless and unfounded. Red will loose a number of cards (hellspark and hell's thunder among the big ones) however, they will be gaining more cards as well from the new set so we can't make assumptions of future problems without knowledge of future solutions.
Also, this card might end up being to good a hoser for its own good, if it truly devastates player targeting strategies, people will change their decks to avoid targeting player, focusing more on creature based combat. With a focus on creatures, the Leyline will become increasingly useless and be cut from side boards in favor of other cards. Giving RDW and others an opening to strike.
I have a strong suspicion that we shall not be seeing new core-set planeswalkers until one dies or otherwise gets removed from the storyline. The cards represent the basic fundamental nature of each planeswalker, all the other versions are merely growths or nuances of that basic planeswalker.
Also, the current "core" planeswalkers are all simple and clean, relative to other versions so make more effective core inclusions (Ajani 2 is multicolor, Chandra two has an addition cost on one of her abilities-discarding, and Jace 2 has four abilities). They probably are trying to use the versions that best introduce the player to the fundamental principles of planeswalkers as a card type, not which one is hottest in the metagame.
Crusader: I think it might work better as a royal assassin when it attacks or blocks... i think the flexibility makes it a bit unbalanced since it can be a repeated stone rain which seems pretty brutal and basically overly punishes a slow start since they loose the ability to get back in the game when they get stoned rained repeatedly. If you go the assassin route just make it monoblack.
Revolting abomination: Wither and Deathtouch on the same thing is... awkward since the vast majority of the time the opposing creature will die to the deathtouch making the wither pointless. Sure their are corner cases (indestructible regenerate etc) but I'm not a fan of having text on a card that only matters at all in corner cases. Also, this could be mono-black since it feels like a buffed up sengir vampire in someways (maybe its just me)
Faerie Trickerster: I like the concept of faerie trickster but... the bribery effect might be to much... maybe restrict it to their hand or something... being to pull out baneslayers or whatever else might be overmuch. This guy would give green decks fits.
Simmering Downfall: I like how you can use it on your own land to incinerate... i don't like how fiercely it punishes other red decks (normally you red should punish white or blue) maybe instead of the "red mana" clause you can have it be "land you control"?
Merciful grasp: I like it though it should perhaps cost one or two more given its effect cannot be broken like control magic can and its effects is not very restrictive (and the fact it still can be used as a neck snap). Oh and i think the hybrid mana symbol can just be colorless... seems unnecessary.
Charcoal blast: It might cause rules issues since it "becomes" an enchantment so I doubt it will ever see print on that ground alone. Also... the permenant weakness for you opponents creatures seems like it would destroy any aggro deck that it got cast against.
singing blast: I don't know about anyone else, but I'd play that without wither... being able to constantly have removal on hand is pretty nice. The wither might almost be too much still i think its fine.
Cavalry Commander: I think... that this guy is pretty good... I think it would be fine with just "for each creature that dealt damage to you".
Heavenly Creatures:I like it, nothing I'd want to change about it.
Fatechanger: I think this guy is pretty solid without the body, strapping it onto a relevent body is pretty brutal.
Angelic Prowler: Besides the name ( I can't imagine something angelic actually prowling) I just dislike the text box... I think it should just be unblockable since they have to kill the thing anyway. Also I think you should simplify the cost rather than futzing around with hybrid mana symbols. Finally, this should probably be blue for unblockability.
Destructive thoughts: No... just... no. Even if it only hits a two CMC card its a rain of salt strapped to a (one-sided) pyroclasm strapped to a coercion.
Lustrous ornament: I like where its going but I'd really need to play with it to get a sense of exactly house to balance it, if it needs balancing at all.
False Tribute: hmmm... I can totally see people dying to this cause you are commiting yourself to six life at a rapid rate... that said the amount of card selection and advantage is brutal for only three mana... it might work in cube but I don't know if it would get printed for modern constructed formats.
Howling Aggression: you have a thing for absolutely brutal land destruction spells don't you? Aside from minor templating issues... again, this thing is brutal... goblin guide followed by two drop followed by this seems like it could lead to quick unfun games.
Jumble Thoughts: This seems to be actually kinda bad and becomes useless late (like mana leak can) not to mention your opponent should have a good sense of how risky it is to mill himself and act accordingly. Also, were you trying to template it so that if you counter a non-creature spell you drew a card regardless of the milling?
Blind Faith: I feel bad for the guy facing this with one card in hand. Btw, is it supposed to work such that you can layer two turns worth of +1/+1 modifers on... because as it stands during you turn you can activate it X times so its +X/+X, then during your next turn activate another X times and until the end of that turn the creature is +2X/+2X. Also, I can imagine that later the random card selecting might get annoying if activated in big batchs.
@followthereaper
Plunderling: that card is kind of... bizarre... I guess an annex that bounces things or can be a creature that bounces things is good. but its just kind of... wtf? don't know how the two forms are supposed to mesh.
Not sure if this relates to jace, its the only thing I could think of.
Not bad but like I mentioned with another individuals planewalker, you need to make sure his + ability can always be used. In this case its easily concievable that your opponent won't have a planewalker, in which case the ability cannot be used (well it can but he'd have to target himself) so he would be stuck at two loyalty forever.
My only other problem is flavor, being that this card doesn't feel like jace who tends focus entirely on library based abilities (of which this card has only one)
I don't mind the new vamp tribe... I actually like how they sort of shared space in black in M10 and I wish that every color had two tribes like that... unlike how red and green are monolithically defined as the "goblin" and "elf" colors respectively.
Makes the multiverse more diverse.
Also, I thought the primal, bestial vamps in Zendikar were pretty cool as far as vampire renditions go... but this is beginning to digress from the subject of the thread, so I'll leave it at that.
Ancient Hellkite 4RRR
Flying Haste
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to an opponent, that player sacrifices two lands.
6/6
Angelic Arbiter 3WW
Flying, Flash
When ~ comes into play gain life equal to the life you lost this turn.
3/4
Conundrum Sphinx 4UU
Flying
when Conundrum sphinx enters the battlefield search your library for 4 cards with different names. Your opponent choose two cards. Put those card into your graveyard and the rest in your hand.
3/3
Black sower of temptation... kinda
Captivating Vampire 2BB
Flying
Return target creature from an opponents graveyard to play under your control.
2/2
Overwhelming Stampede 3GGG
creatures you control get +4/+4, trample, and are indestructible until end of turn.
yeah but the green you mention is never likely to be printed again BECAUSE its out of character for green (Twister Bee Sting Honey) and the rest arn't creature kill with the exception of wing snare.
and only one of those that you mention is even arguably cubable (and that one is hybrid which always walk to the line of having out of color effects) so I fail to see how the green argument applies to cube. Seems like black can have it... but it wouldn't be cubable.
I think what he meant that at the time Thawing Glaciers couldn't fetch two lands. Only because of a later change in how the game works does it allow the previous wordings to fetch two lands. With skullclamp, its power may be too high but it works exactly as it was intended and how its wording intends. Thawing Glaciers "fetching two lands" results from the haphazard wordings that were prevalent before things became more organized in the 6th edition era.
At least I think thats the intent, others who played at the time can correct me on this.
Its true that it can. More to the point though is that it probably won't be. I remember Mark Rosewater and LaPille talking about how they wanted to limit the ways that plays could get infect damage outside of combat. I don't think they'd print what is essentially 1 mana "Deal 4 damage to target player." that can't be counteracted by life gain.
Maybe if it only targets creatures, but at that point... its just wither.
Actually, if memory serves me, Damage was actually a exception rather than business as normal. It was the only time that non-spell non-ability went on the stack. It was also the only time a game action went on the stack. Unlike the following which do not use the stack: Untapping, Drawing, Declaring attackers, Declaring blockers, and removing damage and effects from creatures eot.
If you look at it that way Damage stacking is a bit of an aberration.
In all fairness though it was probably more designed for multiplayer where you can conspire with an opponent. Since only one opponent needs to give the ascent it would allow the two of you to wreck some third party by tutoring up a necessary answer. One of those political cards they are trying to print these days.
Yeah... but its a dead card if a deck avoids doing such. Even if a deck has some cards that do target you, it might never end up being relevant. I mean, Jund variants have already been dabbling in blightning-less builds and those that still run them can easily side them out without loosing massive power (after all by keeping in the Leyline without blighting your opponent is causing themselves card disadvantage since the card is dead), Jace is still a card drawing machine, Gideon still assassinates and swings, Elspeth is completely unaffected, meaning its not great against a lot of the Planewalker builds out there.
There in lies the problem with the card... it can easily be a trap. Much like the baneslayer sideboarding plan, you need to figure out what you opponents decks is actually doing. Can you afford to keep it in against Jund because they "should" have blightning? Will the Jund player assume your are taking it out? If so you might leave it in... but if they take their blightnings out or never had them the card is dead.
The card has a powerful effect, but the decks it hurt can play around it and make it dead... which might lead people to take it out... thus making their face-bolts and blightnings very very live again.
Further, people have mentioned actively mulliganing for this card, which is a trap in and of itself. People might think it a security blanket for bad hands, causing them to get steamrolled by Bloodbraids or Ball Lightnings or Vengevines or what have you.
My main point about the card, is that it has a powerful effect, but its not a crippling effect. We don't have decks like ANT in standard that NEED to target the other player. They might prefer it but it can be avoid, and if they can avoided it the card becomes dead.
I am not saying the card is weak, don't get me wrong. It will have an effect on the meta... but I don't think it will shatter any decks or anything. Further, its actually very skill intensive since you need to know what your opponents has both maindeck and sideboard, meaning just putting this in a deck without knowledge or practice will often make your deck worse.
Also, M11 also included some mono-red evolutions within it. Chandras Outrage can kill walls and burn the player, while combustion can kill the previously game ending baneslayer that would force Red to two for one itself. Other cards like the cyclops can put Red on a more permanent oriented bent than previously.
Also, speculation on how red will be hurt post alara rotation, is baseless and unfounded. Red will loose a number of cards (hellspark and hell's thunder among the big ones) however, they will be gaining more cards as well from the new set so we can't make assumptions of future problems without knowledge of future solutions.
Also, this card might end up being to good a hoser for its own good, if it truly devastates player targeting strategies, people will change their decks to avoid targeting player, focusing more on creature based combat. With a focus on creatures, the Leyline will become increasingly useless and be cut from side boards in favor of other cards. Giving RDW and others an opening to strike.
Also, the current "core" planeswalkers are all simple and clean, relative to other versions so make more effective core inclusions (Ajani 2 is multicolor, Chandra two has an addition cost on one of her abilities-discarding, and Jace 2 has four abilities). They probably are trying to use the versions that best introduce the player to the fundamental principles of planeswalkers as a card type, not which one is hottest in the metagame.
Crusader: I think it might work better as a royal assassin when it attacks or blocks... i think the flexibility makes it a bit unbalanced since it can be a repeated stone rain which seems pretty brutal and basically overly punishes a slow start since they loose the ability to get back in the game when they get stoned rained repeatedly. If you go the assassin route just make it monoblack.
Revolting abomination: Wither and Deathtouch on the same thing is... awkward since the vast majority of the time the opposing creature will die to the deathtouch making the wither pointless. Sure their are corner cases (indestructible regenerate etc) but I'm not a fan of having text on a card that only matters at all in corner cases. Also, this could be mono-black since it feels like a buffed up sengir vampire in someways (maybe its just me)
Faerie Trickerster: I like the concept of faerie trickster but... the bribery effect might be to much... maybe restrict it to their hand or something... being to pull out baneslayers or whatever else might be overmuch. This guy would give green decks fits.
Simmering Downfall: I like how you can use it on your own land to incinerate... i don't like how fiercely it punishes other red decks (normally you red should punish white or blue) maybe instead of the "red mana" clause you can have it be "land you control"?
Merciful grasp: I like it though it should perhaps cost one or two more given its effect cannot be broken like control magic can and its effects is not very restrictive (and the fact it still can be used as a neck snap). Oh and i think the hybrid mana symbol can just be colorless... seems unnecessary.
Charcoal blast: It might cause rules issues since it "becomes" an enchantment so I doubt it will ever see print on that ground alone. Also... the permenant weakness for you opponents creatures seems like it would destroy any aggro deck that it got cast against.
singing blast: I don't know about anyone else, but I'd play that without wither... being able to constantly have removal on hand is pretty nice. The wither might almost be too much still i think its fine.
Cavalry Commander: I think... that this guy is pretty good... I think it would be fine with just "for each creature that dealt damage to you".
Heavenly Creatures:I like it, nothing I'd want to change about it.
Fatechanger: I think this guy is pretty solid without the body, strapping it onto a relevent body is pretty brutal.
Angelic Prowler: Besides the name ( I can't imagine something angelic actually prowling) I just dislike the text box... I think it should just be unblockable since they have to kill the thing anyway. Also I think you should simplify the cost rather than futzing around with hybrid mana symbols. Finally, this should probably be blue for unblockability.
Destructive thoughts: No... just... no. Even if it only hits a two CMC card its a rain of salt strapped to a (one-sided) pyroclasm strapped to a coercion.
Lustrous ornament: I like where its going but I'd really need to play with it to get a sense of exactly house to balance it, if it needs balancing at all.
False Tribute: hmmm... I can totally see people dying to this cause you are commiting yourself to six life at a rapid rate... that said the amount of card selection and advantage is brutal for only three mana... it might work in cube but I don't know if it would get printed for modern constructed formats.
Howling Aggression: you have a thing for absolutely brutal land destruction spells don't you? Aside from minor templating issues... again, this thing is brutal... goblin guide followed by two drop followed by this seems like it could lead to quick unfun games.
Jumble Thoughts: This seems to be actually kinda bad and becomes useless late (like mana leak can) not to mention your opponent should have a good sense of how risky it is to mill himself and act accordingly. Also, were you trying to template it so that if you counter a non-creature spell you drew a card regardless of the milling?
Blind Faith: I feel bad for the guy facing this with one card in hand. Btw, is it supposed to work such that you can layer two turns worth of +1/+1 modifers on... because as it stands during you turn you can activate it X times so its +X/+X, then during your next turn activate another X times and until the end of that turn the creature is +2X/+2X. Also, I can imagine that later the random card selecting might get annoying if activated in big batchs.
@followthereaper
Plunderling: that card is kind of... bizarre... I guess an annex that bounces things or can be a creature that bounces things is good. but its just kind of... wtf? don't know how the two forms are supposed to mesh.
Not bad but like I mentioned with another individuals planewalker, you need to make sure his + ability can always be used. In this case its easily concievable that your opponent won't have a planewalker, in which case the ability cannot be used (well it can but he'd have to target himself) so he would be stuck at two loyalty forever.
My only other problem is flavor, being that this card doesn't feel like jace who tends focus entirely on library based abilities (of which this card has only one)
Makes the multiverse more diverse.
Also, I thought the primal, bestial vamps in Zendikar were pretty cool as far as vampire renditions go... but this is beginning to digress from the subject of the thread, so I'll leave it at that.
Flying Haste
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to an opponent, that player sacrifices two lands.
6/6
Angelic Arbiter 3WW
Flying, Flash
When ~ comes into play gain life equal to the life you lost this turn.
3/4
Conundrum Sphinx 4UU
Flying
when Conundrum sphinx enters the battlefield search your library for 4 cards with different names. Your opponent choose two cards. Put those card into your graveyard and the rest in your hand.
3/3
Black sower of temptation... kinda
Captivating Vampire 2BB
Flying
Return target creature from an opponents graveyard to play under your control.
2/2
Overwhelming Stampede 3GGG
creatures you control get +4/+4, trample, and are indestructible until end of turn.
and only one of those that you mention is even arguably cubable (and that one is hybrid which always walk to the line of having out of color effects) so I fail to see how the green argument applies to cube. Seems like black can have it... but it wouldn't be cubable.