Just to give something of a face to what we're talking about here, this seems like a decent idea of what we'd be running if we dropped the red. Kind of slapdash, but w/e:
Again, probably not an ideal list, but here's how I see the breakdown:
What We Lose
Anger of the Gods: Has never been the best sweeper, but the best we've had access to. Maybe the next set will bring us the black sweeper that UB always seems to spend a set or two waiting for, but for now its absence relegates us to Ratchet Bombs, which are far worse, but have the added benefits of hitting walkers/Scorched Earth
Rakdos's Return: Does a decent impression of Blightning and can put opponent decks into topdeck mode, whcih is great position for us.
Dreadbore: Always felt that Downfall was better anyway
Izzet Charm: Versatile, but I never really felt it was ideal
Nightveil Specter: Really liking the look of this guy. His ability is definitely dead against some decks we'll encounter, but a 2/3 in the air is still decent to have on out board, and it feeds the Master a whopping 3 devotion.
Ratchet Bomb: Not so much a gain as we kind of have to run it. Not happy about it, but that's the situation.
Mutavault: One of the most exciting things for me is that our manabase is consistent enough that we can run this guy without hurting out curve. Very nice.
Overall, it seems like we lose some decent power by dropping red, but we get a great deal of boost in our consistency. The mutavaults can do a decent job of holding off the "nuts draw" from aggro until we can stabilize a controlling board, and the Cure's help with keeping us alive. A few things to really miss from red, but I really think the consistency might be worth the trade-off.
Also: @ Kamahl, Latte has been walking the edge of trolling this thread for a number of pages now, just ignore him if he doesn't have anything worthwhile to offer in getting this deck to its ideal place
I...actually don't think I hate the idea of Transguld Promenade over Shimmering Grotto/Unknown Shores. It seems like more of a 2-of to me, as I don't really want to drop it before T6/7, but it does seem like a decent mana fixer that doesn't raise the cmc of spells. Might have to give it a shot.
As for Burning Earth, our options are to counter it, to ratchet bomb it or to splash a 4th colour.
Well, the stats can help to show how many lands can be run out of a deck by the time you could cast it for x=8-10. From the looks of it, by turn 12 or so that level of grind should reliably hit more than 20 cards, so should be able to solidly finish even if you somehow wound up with a yard of only ~10-15.
Not the most important thing to take from the sheet you posted, but still interesting to me personally.
@Rjl: Thank you for the excellent breakdown here. I think this also goes quite a ways to showing how effective my pet card Mind Grind can be as a backup finisher in some our long games.
While we're on the subject of mana: do we have any way to legitimately deal with RDW's Burning Earth other than counters?
Just a couple things I wanted to say on card choice for this. You'll see right away it's just a slightly altered version of one of TOG's recent builds, with a couple (in my mind) key differences.
Ashiok, the Nightmare Weaver: Alright, this one I'm still not sure on. He can definitely be a house, and has swung games my way more than a few times, but I'm not sure that I would have had trouble winning any of those games without him. When he sticks around, he can really make an impact, especially against stuff like RG Monsters and most Midrange in the field right now. However, sometimes there's really no way to stop him from being just 3 mana to exile three cards, and that isn't an investment I'm too keen on. I'm considering swapping him to a MD Jace, Memory Adept for the mill acceleration, but 5 mana for just 10 guaranteed is a high investment as well.
Anger of the Gods: I've seen a lot of lists dropping this altogether, and I understand the concern with the mana base supporting it. My own cold probably use a bit of a tweak to truly run it consistently (something in the neighborhood of 3 each on Steam Vents and Blood Crypt). However, one of my most consistent losses is against Red Aggro similar to what took the win SCGWOR. AotG really helps on this MU when Ratchet Bomb and Pharika's Cure can't hold them off on their own.
Crypt Incursion: Someone mentioned a while back that this was strong against Whip of Erebos and they couldn't be more right. Running this, I can feel comfortable keeping a full set of Psychic Strike, and I don't have to worry about disabling the whip itself.
Mind Grind: This is the big one that has been making a difference for me. It seems a lot of people dismissed it pretty early, but I've been finding it to be quite a useful finisher. Essentially the common situation has been my opponent dropping a game-ending threat that I can't answer, and my spiral can't quite finish them off. However, Spiral EOT into tap-out for mind grind (usually value of 7 or more) has been my last second win in at least 5 games since I've started running it. It's certainly not something that will win the game on its own, but having a miser's in my deck for those moments when my back is to a wall has saved me consistently enough that I think it's earned its spot.
Those are my general impressions after about a week of testing. What do you guy's think?
The big problem here is that by running that many creatures, you're just telling yourself "I am going to lose the Draw-Go mirror match." Your draw engine has been wrecked in favor of creatures that try to do a bad imitation of Jund CA, and removal that is completely dead against a deck that runs one creature and 0-1 PW. Post-board you might get some cool tricks off of Whip, but other than that, there just isn't anything in the board here that scares me. The second Rakdos's Return could be an issue, but by time you can cast it with any punch, I'll likely be able to answer it with a counter. In the end, your post-board in mirror has ~15 threats that I'm concerned about, whereas I have ~22 answers. I however, have ~4-5 threats, 0-1 of which are actually permanents and your deck can do anything about. I draw faster than you, I hit my answers faster, and my threats dodge the removal that you have invested so much in.
P.S. - Headed to campus now, but will post deck list when I get back to my apt.
I would prefer 4 syncopate and 4 Psychic Strike before thinking about adding in dissolve for mana consistency reasons, they also aren't limited to creatures or non creatures.
Order of priority that I would go for for personally
1.) Syncopate
2.) Psychic Strike
3.) Dissolve
4.) Essence Scatter
The problem is that syncopate loses so much efficiency as the game wears on.
Dissolve may be more difficult to cast for the first 5 or so turns, but after those turns, syncopate basically requires your full mana base to remain relevant, but dissolve stays relevant all game for 3cmc.
Hey guys, just coming back from taking a couple years break from the game, and have been testing a draw-go Grixis list with quite a bit of success. For me, Ashiok has been a house, and I think that the simple reason why is this:
I played Ashiok turn 3, +2 and got 3 lands or 2 lands and spell....
I think that this is the main problem that some people are having with Ashiok. I only run a single copy, so I rarely have the opportunity to cast him on T3, and even when I do have the chance, he usually gets held until T4 or T5. The reason being that T3 usually winds up being a fairly strong turn for initial threats on other decks, and I would much rather be responding to one of those than putting a semi-threat on the board.
I can certainly see why tapout variations of Grixis would not really want to run him, but in draw-go, an Ashiok that hits the field on T4 or 5 or even 6, can usually be protected with any number of answer cards, and if he gets a few turns on the board, he can usually pull a win-con from the opposing deck.
Can someone explain to me the justification of blade splicer? It seems to me like it's never going to come down on T3 (tapping out on T3 when playing control seems to be almost always a bad idea), but it seems to lose relevance at any point after that. The 3/3 first striker seems nice, but the splicer itself dies to anything running red, especially when a lot of our guys are immune to their burn spells, or at least resilient (Hero) and the 3/3 seems underwhelming when the Splicer is gone.
On another note, I really do like the idea of Traveler in this deck, giving us a guaranteed dude left after a Day, possibly even letting us untap after we cast the day if it gets in for 3 w/ a SoFaF, setting up for a board that should be clogged pretty hard in our favor by EoT. It also gives us something to do on T1, which this deck seems to be lacking, as well as nice chump against aggro.
The singleton Kazuul is pretty interesting though!
...I'm seeing no reason at all why this should be included in the deck other than maybe he couldn't find his 15th sb card. All logic says that it would be better as anything else, Reins especially.
Why are people recommending that he cut Ulamog? Ula is a beast and much better than Kozilek IMO. The draw from K rarely has an impact on my games whereas Ula has saved me so many times that I dropped K in favor of a second one.
Just wondering what the reasoning is for dropping him entirely.
Name: Draymund Krayle
Age: 25
Height: 5' 11"
Weight: 185
Gender: Male
Appearance: A young man of average build approaches the checkpoint. His hair is short and dark, windswept and showing signs of early recession. His eyes are gray as the pre-dawn sky. As he approaches the checkpoint he reaches into his vest and produces his papers. He smiles as he hands them to the official, jingling the fresh coins in his pocket and planning the day's festivities.
The problem with Esper atm is the fact that you have to disrupt your own manabase by playing a deck full of etb tapped lands. With a base that's so unreliable, all it takes is one well-placed edge to ruin your day. In order for the deck to be viable, the payoff from the extra color has to outweigh the risk of playing such a dangerous base. Unfortunately, the three main cards you're splashing (Gideon, Day, and Journey) really don't. Without a more suitable base, Esper just really isn't viable.
The three card combo that makes dreams come true in standard. The question is: what to do with it? Big fireballs go without saying, but what other fun things can we do?
One thing that comes to mind is Myr Battlesphere, so let's run with that to start. We'll put the deck in Blue for the moment, simply because I want an excuse to play the new counterspell.
Card selection:
Control- Stoic Rebuttal: As I said, I want to use this. After all, we'll be plunking out enough artifacts to hit Metalcraft fairly early, so Counterspell away
Negate: Still probably the most effective coutnerspell in Standard. Gets rid of pesky pyroclasms that ruin this deck's day.
Mana Leak: Never been a huge fan, as it loses most of its relevance late game, but still an early/midgame superstar
Draw - Foresee: A little costly, but scries to set up combo.
A beginning, for you to take where you will. Seems like fun, and making these sorts of ridiculous things happen is what artifact blocks are all about, right?
Creatures -9
1 Aetherling
2 Master of Waves
2 Nightveil Specter
4 Frostburn Weird
Planeswalkers - 5
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Jace, Architecht of Thought
Spells - 18
4 Far//Away
3 Pharika's Cure
2 Heroes' Downfall
3 Psychic Strike
2 Syncopate
3 Inspiration
1 Opportunity
2 Ratchet Bomb
Lands - 26
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Mutavault
8 Swamp
7 Island
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Lifebane Zombie
4 Thoughtseize
2 Curse of the Swine
3 Woodlot Crawler
1 Notion Thief
Again, probably not an ideal list, but here's how I see the breakdown:
What We Lose
Anger of the Gods: Has never been the best sweeper, but the best we've had access to. Maybe the next set will bring us the black sweeper that UB always seems to spend a set or two waiting for, but for now its absence relegates us to Ratchet Bombs, which are far worse, but have the added benefits of hitting walkers/Scorched Earth
Rakdos's Return: Does a decent impression of Blightning and can put opponent decks into topdeck mode, whcih is great position for us.
Dreadbore: Always felt that Downfall was better anyway
Izzet Charm: Versatile, but I never really felt it was ideal
Thoughtflare: Strictly worse than Opportunity if you're not running Psychic Spiral
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius: A solid finisher, possibly the best "answer-this-now" threat in out late game, with the exception of Aetherling
What We Gain:
Pharika's Cure: Excellent against aggro. The life gain goes a long way and the early removal gives us an edge against aggro.
Dissolve: Becomes a more viable replacement for Psychic Strike. I like the discard of Strike, but the fixing in the form of scry can be useful.
Opportunity/Inspiration: Much better CA engine than Return/Thoughtflare.
Nightveil Specter: Really liking the look of this guy. His ability is definitely dead against some decks we'll encounter, but a 2/3 in the air is still decent to have on out board, and it feeds the Master a whopping 3 devotion.
Ratchet Bomb: Not so much a gain as we kind of have to run it. Not happy about it, but that's the situation.
Mutavault: One of the most exciting things for me is that our manabase is consistent enough that we can run this guy without hurting out curve. Very nice.
Overall, it seems like we lose some decent power by dropping red, but we get a great deal of boost in our consistency. The mutavaults can do a decent job of holding off the "nuts draw" from aggro until we can stabilize a controlling board, and the Cure's help with keeping us alive. A few things to really miss from red, but I really think the consistency might be worth the trade-off.
Also: @ Kamahl, Latte has been walking the edge of trolling this thread for a number of pages now, just ignore him if he doesn't have anything worthwhile to offer in getting this deck to its ideal place
Well, the stats can help to show how many lands can be run out of a deck by the time you could cast it for x=8-10. From the looks of it, by turn 12 or so that level of grind should reliably hit more than 20 cards, so should be able to solidly finish even if you somehow wound up with a yard of only ~10-15.
Not the most important thing to take from the sheet you posted, but still interesting to me personally.
While we're on the subject of mana: do we have any way to legitimately deal with RDW's Burning Earth other than counters?
1 Aetherling
Planeswalkers - 1
1 Ashiok, Weaver of Nightmares
Instants - 31
4 Steam Augury
4 Inspiration
1 Opportunity
4 Dissolve
4 Psychic Strike
2 Essence Scatter
2 Syncopate
3 Devour Flesh
3 Far//Away
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Psychic Spiral
1 Mind Grind
Lands - 26
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Blood Crypt
2 Steam Vents
6 Island
4 Swamp
4 Unknown Shores
3 Pharika's Cure
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Negate
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Slaughter Games
2 Crypt Incursion
1 Counterflux
Just a couple things I wanted to say on card choice for this. You'll see right away it's just a slightly altered version of one of TOG's recent builds, with a couple (in my mind) key differences.
Ashiok, the Nightmare Weaver: Alright, this one I'm still not sure on. He can definitely be a house, and has swung games my way more than a few times, but I'm not sure that I would have had trouble winning any of those games without him. When he sticks around, he can really make an impact, especially against stuff like RG Monsters and most Midrange in the field right now. However, sometimes there's really no way to stop him from being just 3 mana to exile three cards, and that isn't an investment I'm too keen on. I'm considering swapping him to a MD Jace, Memory Adept for the mill acceleration, but 5 mana for just 10 guaranteed is a high investment as well.
Anger of the Gods: I've seen a lot of lists dropping this altogether, and I understand the concern with the mana base supporting it. My own cold probably use a bit of a tweak to truly run it consistently (something in the neighborhood of 3 each on Steam Vents and Blood Crypt). However, one of my most consistent losses is against Red Aggro similar to what took the win SCGWOR. AotG really helps on this MU when Ratchet Bomb and Pharika's Cure can't hold them off on their own.
Crypt Incursion: Someone mentioned a while back that this was strong against Whip of Erebos and they couldn't be more right. Running this, I can feel comfortable keeping a full set of Psychic Strike, and I don't have to worry about disabling the whip itself.
Mind Grind: This is the big one that has been making a difference for me. It seems a lot of people dismissed it pretty early, but I've been finding it to be quite a useful finisher. Essentially the common situation has been my opponent dropping a game-ending threat that I can't answer, and my spiral can't quite finish them off. However, Spiral EOT into tap-out for mind grind (usually value of 7 or more) has been my last second win in at least 5 games since I've started running it. It's certainly not something that will win the game on its own, but having a miser's in my deck for those moments when my back is to a wall has saved me consistently enough that I think it's earned its spot.
Those are my general impressions after about a week of testing. What do you guy's think?
The big problem here is that by running that many creatures, you're just telling yourself "I am going to lose the Draw-Go mirror match." Your draw engine has been wrecked in favor of creatures that try to do a bad imitation of Jund CA, and removal that is completely dead against a deck that runs one creature and 0-1 PW. Post-board you might get some cool tricks off of Whip, but other than that, there just isn't anything in the board here that scares me. The second Rakdos's Return could be an issue, but by time you can cast it with any punch, I'll likely be able to answer it with a counter. In the end, your post-board in mirror has ~15 threats that I'm concerned about, whereas I have ~22 answers. I however, have ~4-5 threats, 0-1 of which are actually permanents and your deck can do anything about. I draw faster than you, I hit my answers faster, and my threats dodge the removal that you have invested so much in.
P.S. - Headed to campus now, but will post deck list when I get back to my apt.
The problem is that syncopate loses so much efficiency as the game wears on.
Dissolve may be more difficult to cast for the first 5 or so turns, but after those turns, syncopate basically requires your full mana base to remain relevant, but dissolve stays relevant all game for 3cmc.
I think that this is the main problem that some people are having with Ashiok. I only run a single copy, so I rarely have the opportunity to cast him on T3, and even when I do have the chance, he usually gets held until T4 or T5. The reason being that T3 usually winds up being a fairly strong turn for initial threats on other decks, and I would much rather be responding to one of those than putting a semi-threat on the board.
I can certainly see why tapout variations of Grixis would not really want to run him, but in draw-go, an Ashiok that hits the field on T4 or 5 or even 6, can usually be protected with any number of answer cards, and if he gets a few turns on the board, he can usually pull a win-con from the opposing deck.
On another note, I really do like the idea of Traveler in this deck, giving us a guaranteed dude left after a Day, possibly even letting us untap after we cast the day if it gets in for 3 w/ a SoFaF, setting up for a board that should be clogged pretty hard in our favor by EoT. It also gives us something to do on T1, which this deck seems to be lacking, as well as nice chump against aggro.
...I'm seeing no reason at all why this should be included in the deck other than maybe he couldn't find his 15th sb card. All logic says that it would be better as anything else, Reins especially.
Just wondering what the reasoning is for dropping him entirely.
Age: 25
Height: 5' 11"
Weight: 185
Gender: Male
Appearance: A young man of average build approaches the checkpoint. His hair is short and dark, windswept and showing signs of early recession. His eyes are gray as the pre-dawn sky. As he approaches the checkpoint he reaches into his vest and produces his papers. He smiles as he hands them to the official, jingling the fresh coins in his pocket and planning the day's festivities.
Myr Galvanizer x2 + Palladium Myr = Infinite Mana!
The three card combo that makes dreams come true in standard. The question is: what to do with it? Big fireballs go without saying, but what other fun things can we do?
Furthermore: Combo #1 + Myr Propagator = Infinite mana + Infinite Dudes
One thing that comes to mind is Myr Battlesphere, so let's run with that to start. We'll put the deck in Blue for the moment, simply because I want an excuse to play the new counterspell.
Card selection:
Control-
Stoic Rebuttal: As I said, I want to use this. After all, we'll be plunking out enough artifacts to hit Metalcraft fairly early, so Counterspell away
Negate: Still probably the most effective coutnerspell in Standard. Gets rid of pesky pyroclasms that ruin this deck's day.
Mana Leak: Never been a huge fan, as it loses most of its relevance late game, but still an early/midgame superstar
Draw -
Foresee: A little costly, but scries to set up combo.
Crystal Ball: See Foresee
Spreading Seas: Kill manlands, Valakut, cantrips.
Jace, The Mindsculptor: Unwieldy cash cost for a casual deck, and you could run little J, but big J sets up the combo far more effectively.
Critters-
Myr Galvanizer: Part of combo.
Palladium Myr: Part of Combo.
Myr Propagator: Etc.
Myr Battlesphere: Wincon
Steel Overseer: A possible entry. Sets up alternate wincon of lots of huge dudes.
Lands-
Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest: Thinning is huge in a combo deck, so 8 fetches seem like a decent idea.
Mystifying Maze: A nice delaying tactic for their creatures
The deck
3 Stoic Rebuttal
3 Negate
2 Mana Leak
3 Crystal Ball
4 Foresee
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Myr Galvanizer
4 Palladium Myr
4 Myr Propagator
3 Steel Overseer
2 Myr Battledome
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Mystifying Maze
13 Island
A beginning, for you to take where you will. Seems like fun, and making these sorts of ridiculous things happen is what artifact blocks are all about, right?