Great - thanks. I don't remember the exact situation (whether or not Narnam Renegade would've entered with a +1/+1 counter), so thanks for making that clarification and confirming my thinking. (Too bad I "ruled" incorrectly in the actual casual game, although to my detriment and to no real effect, anyway).
Experiment One's evolve ability triggers twice (since both Renegade's and Avatar's have a toughness of 2 (and Avatar a power of 3). However, the Experiment One's evolve trigger ALSO checks on resolution, so in order to be most effective, my opponent should put the Evolve (Avatar) trigger on the stack first, then the Evolve (Renegade) trigger; the Renegade-associated trigger resolves and the Experiment One gets a counter, then the Avatar-associated resolves and Experiment One still gets a counter (since 3 > 2). If my opponent stacked the triggers in the opposite order, they'd only get 1 counter on Experiment One, since the Renegade-associated trigger wouldn't do anything upon resolution. Correct?
(And the reason the ability compares creatures' stats both when determining whether to trigger and upon resolution of the trigger is because of the "intervening if")?
Of course, that's a moot point because the Mirror itself is unable to be activated and thus unable to copy anything at all.
If the Mirage Mirror has not yet become a creature somehow, it can not be the target of either ability of Edifice of Authority.
Of course. But in my OP, I was talking about my opponent's turn, the turn after I targeted it with Edifice (after it became a copy of my Grizzly Bears). In that turn, the Mirror's ability cannot be activated because of the Edifice and thus cannot be turned into another creature on my opponent's turn.
My question has been asked and answered; thanks all. This post can be closed.
Just to clarify my original post, when I wrote in paragraph 4, "And, if they choose to copy a creature, is that creature affected by my initial activation of Edifice?" I meant, by "that creature," the creature that Mirror turns into, not the creature (of mine) Mirror is copying; my pronoun was quite unclear. Of course, that's a moot point because the Mirror itself is unable to be activated and thus unable to copy anything at all.
Thanks for the responses and the CR cite. Much appreciated.
In the Declare Attackers step, my opponent activates their Mirror, coping my Grizzly Bears. After that resolves, I activate Edifice's second ability so their Bears (Mirror) cannot attack, block, or use activated abilities until my next turn.
Now, on their next turn, can they use the Mirror's ability to copy something else, since it is no longer a copy of Grizzly Bears (and is no longer a creature at all)? Or is the Mirror still affected by Edifice's second ability?
And, if they choose to copy a creature, is that creature affected by my initial activation of Edifice?
I tried to find the answer in the CR but couldn't; would like a CR cite for this one.
If I activate Mirage Mirror targeting a creature and that creature gets Unsummoned in response, does the Mirage Mirror's ability just fizzle upon resolution?
I've asked questions about Madness timing before; want to make sure this is correct. I have a Thermo-Alchemist and Jori En, Ruin Diver on the battlefield and a Lightning Axe and Fiery Temper in hand. I want to do maximum damage to my opponent with the Alchemist, assuming no responses throughout.
1. Tap the alchemist, targeting my opponent. The ability goes on the stack and resolves.
2. Cast Lightning Axe, targeting Grizzly Bears, discarding the Fiery Temper as the additional cost. Lightning Axe goes on the stack.
3. When I do this, the Fiery Temper's madness trigger goes on the stack, as does the Alchemist's untap trigger. I can order them in whatever order I want (both on top of the Axe itself); I stack the Madness trigger first, then the Alchemist trigger.
4. The Alchemist's trigger resolves and the Alchemist untaps.
5. I tap the Alchemist to do 1 damage to my opponent (this goes on the stack, then resolves with no responses).
6. The Temper's Madness trigger resolves. I choose to cast it targeting my opponent, tapping a Mountain. The Temper is cast and goes on the stack atop the Axe.
7. When I cast it, the Alchemist's trigger and Jori-En's trigger both go on the stack; again, I can order them however I like - let's say Jori-En's first, then the Alchemist.
8. The Alchemist trigger resolves, untapping the Alchemist.
9. Jori-En's trigger resolves; I draw a card.
10. The Fiery Temper resolves, dealing 3 damage to my opponent.
11. The Lightning Axe resolves, dealing 5 damage to my opponent's Bears.
12. The stack is empty and my Alchemist is untapped.
Is this correct? Any details I missed that are relevant?
1. Yes, you can - overload is an alternative cost. It's listed in the Gatherer rulings for Goblin Electromancer - "Goblin Electromancer can reduce alternative costs such as overload costs."
2. You can always copy Teleportal with the Guildmage because the converted mana cost of Teleportal is always 2, regardless of what you paid to cast it. The CMC of a card is always what is printed in the upper right (with some exceptions for cards with X in their casting cost.)
Fiery Temper's madness trigger triggers during the casting of Lightning Axe, correct? Since that's when I discarded it? But doesn't go on the stack until a player would normally get priority, which isn't until Lightning Axe has actually become cast?
That seems to be where I messed up - trying to put something on the stack when I'm not allowed to (if I understand it correctly).
I want to make sure I get the triggers and order of everything right in this scenario, so I'm spelling it out in detail. I have a "bonus" question at the end. Here:
I announce Lightning Axe targeting the Grizzly Bears, so it goes on the stack. I choose to discard Fiery Temper to pay its additional cost.
When I choose to discard Fiery Temper, I discard it to exile and then its triggered ability from Madness triggers. I choose to cast it, paying its Madness cost and announcing my opponent as the target.
At this point, Fiery Temper becomes cast, although Lightning Axe is not yet cast. Casting Fiery Temper causes Thing in the Ice's triggered ability to trigger. I think it triggers but does not go on the stack yet because nobody is getting priority because I'm still in the middle of casting Lightning Axe, but I'm not sure about that. I'll proceed on that assumption.
So now that I've paid the costs for Lightning Axe (by discarding Fiery Temper), it becomes cast, triggering Thing in the Ice (again) and triggering Jori En.
I have 3 triggers to put on the stack at this point and I can put them on in whatever order. I'll put the 2 TiTi triggers on first, then Jori En's. So I believe the stack looks like:
Jori En's "draw a card" trigger
TiTi's "remove a counter" trigger
TiTi's "remove a counter" trigger
Lightning Axe (targeting Grizzly Bears)
Fiery Temper (targeting my opponent)
Assuming there are no responses, the first three triggers resolve in order, so I draw and then remove the last 2 counters from TiTi, whose transform trigger goes on the stack. I transform TiTi, so Awoken Horror's triggered ability goes on the stack, so the stack looks like:
Awoken Horror's ability resolves, so my opponent's Grizzly Bears is returned to their hand.
Lightning Axe is countered by the game for not having a legal target.
Fiery Temper resolves, dealing 3 damage to my opponent.
Is all that correct?
Bonus Question: New scenario: If I cast Slip Through Space on TiTi with 2 counters, it resolves, then I cast Uncaged Fury on TiTi, causing it to transform, the Uncaged Fury will still resolve because the Awoken Horror is the same object as the TiTi I declared as a target when I cast it, right? And the Slip Through Space still applies, so my Awoken Horror will be 8/9 double striking and unblockable? Pretty sure about that, figured I'd get confirmation.
Cool - thanks for the responses. So it doesn't seem the store I go to is skimping on the prizes; everything that's been said here seems pretty comparable to what I remember. Wish I knew why the player count seemed to be diminishing over the last 6 months, but that's another thread sometime.
A local store that I usually go to for FNM (always booster draft of the most recent set) has had a really diminishing number of players. I've heard more than 1 player mention low prize pools relative to other stores in the area. I'm curious:
What kind of prize pools are typical at FNM booster draft?
At this store, the draft typically costs $15, although you can prepay online for $14 or "buy" 10 drafts for $100. I don't really remember what the prize pools are - last week there were only 4 people (so unsanctioned) and I think the prize distribution was 3-2-1, although I talked the owner into 3-2-1-1.
The Kavu isn't still on the stack when it's ability resolves - it's on the battlefield and must do 4 damage to itself if it's the only creature on the battlefield.
Without knowing what the card on MTGO was (and assuming it wasn't a bug), it's impossible to say - maybe the player cast a creature with a "When you cast CARDNAME..." trigger, which would go on the stack on top of the creature spell. (For example, if you somehow cast Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and there were no permanents on the battlefield at all, it could NOT target itself with its first ability. Granted, quite contrived, but you get the point.)
Experiment One
Narnam Renegade
Avatar of the Resolute
Correct me if I'm wrong:
Experiment One's evolve ability triggers twice (since both Renegade's and Avatar's have a toughness of 2 (and Avatar a power of 3). However, the Experiment One's evolve trigger ALSO checks on resolution, so in order to be most effective, my opponent should put the Evolve (Avatar) trigger on the stack first, then the Evolve (Renegade) trigger; the Renegade-associated trigger resolves and the Experiment One gets a counter, then the Avatar-associated resolves and Experiment One still gets a counter (since 3 > 2). If my opponent stacked the triggers in the opposite order, they'd only get 1 counter on Experiment One, since the Renegade-associated trigger wouldn't do anything upon resolution. Correct?
(And the reason the ability compares creatures' stats both when determining whether to trigger and upon resolution of the trigger is because of the "intervening if")?
Just want to make sure I'm doing it correctly.
Of course. But in my OP, I was talking about my opponent's turn, the turn after I targeted it with Edifice (after it became a copy of my Grizzly Bears). In that turn, the Mirror's ability cannot be activated because of the Edifice and thus cannot be turned into another creature on my opponent's turn.
My question has been asked and answered; thanks all. This post can be closed.
Thanks for the responses and the CR cite. Much appreciated.
In the Declare Attackers step, my opponent activates their Mirror, coping my Grizzly Bears. After that resolves, I activate Edifice's second ability so their Bears (Mirror) cannot attack, block, or use activated abilities until my next turn.
Now, on their next turn, can they use the Mirror's ability to copy something else, since it is no longer a copy of Grizzly Bears (and is no longer a creature at all)? Or is the Mirror still affected by Edifice's second ability?
And, if they choose to copy a creature, is that creature affected by my initial activation of Edifice?
I tried to find the answer in the CR but couldn't; would like a CR cite for this one.
Thanks!
Minor nitpick - Gitaxian Probe is a sorcery, not an instant. Doesn't change Rezzahan's answer, though.
1. Tap the alchemist, targeting my opponent. The ability goes on the stack and resolves.
2. Cast Lightning Axe, targeting Grizzly Bears, discarding the Fiery Temper as the additional cost. Lightning Axe goes on the stack.
3. When I do this, the Fiery Temper's madness trigger goes on the stack, as does the Alchemist's untap trigger. I can order them in whatever order I want (both on top of the Axe itself); I stack the Madness trigger first, then the Alchemist trigger.
4. The Alchemist's trigger resolves and the Alchemist untaps.
5. I tap the Alchemist to do 1 damage to my opponent (this goes on the stack, then resolves with no responses).
6. The Temper's Madness trigger resolves. I choose to cast it targeting my opponent, tapping a Mountain. The Temper is cast and goes on the stack atop the Axe.
7. When I cast it, the Alchemist's trigger and Jori-En's trigger both go on the stack; again, I can order them however I like - let's say Jori-En's first, then the Alchemist.
8. The Alchemist trigger resolves, untapping the Alchemist.
9. Jori-En's trigger resolves; I draw a card.
10. The Fiery Temper resolves, dealing 3 damage to my opponent.
11. The Lightning Axe resolves, dealing 5 damage to my opponent's Bears.
12. The stack is empty and my Alchemist is untapped.
Is this correct? Any details I missed that are relevant?
Thanks in advance.
2. You can always copy Teleportal with the Guildmage because the converted mana cost of Teleportal is always 2, regardless of what you paid to cast it. The CMC of a card is always what is printed in the upper right (with some exceptions for cards with X in their casting cost.)
Fiery Temper's madness trigger triggers during the casting of Lightning Axe, correct? Since that's when I discarded it? But doesn't go on the stack until a player would normally get priority, which isn't until Lightning Axe has actually become cast?
That seems to be where I messed up - trying to put something on the stack when I'm not allowed to (if I understand it correctly).
I control Thing in the Ice with 2 counters and Jori En, Ruin Diver. My opponent controls a Grizzly Bears. It is my turn and I have not yet cast any spells.
I announce Lightning Axe targeting the Grizzly Bears, so it goes on the stack. I choose to discard Fiery Temper to pay its additional cost.
When I choose to discard Fiery Temper, I discard it to exile and then its triggered ability from Madness triggers. I choose to cast it, paying its Madness cost and announcing my opponent as the target.
At this point, Fiery Temper becomes cast, although Lightning Axe is not yet cast. Casting Fiery Temper causes Thing in the Ice's triggered ability to trigger. I think it triggers but does not go on the stack yet because nobody is getting priority because I'm still in the middle of casting Lightning Axe, but I'm not sure about that. I'll proceed on that assumption.
So now that I've paid the costs for Lightning Axe (by discarding Fiery Temper), it becomes cast, triggering Thing in the Ice (again) and triggering Jori En.
I have 3 triggers to put on the stack at this point and I can put them on in whatever order. I'll put the 2 TiTi triggers on first, then Jori En's. So I believe the stack looks like:
Jori En's "draw a card" trigger
TiTi's "remove a counter" trigger
TiTi's "remove a counter" trigger
Lightning Axe (targeting Grizzly Bears)
Fiery Temper (targeting my opponent)
Assuming there are no responses, the first three triggers resolve in order, so I draw and then remove the last 2 counters from TiTi, whose transform trigger goes on the stack. I transform TiTi, so Awoken Horror's triggered ability goes on the stack, so the stack looks like:
Awoken Horror's "return non-Horror" trigger
Lightning Axe (--> Grizzly Bears)
Fiery Temper (--> opponent)
Awoken Horror's ability resolves, so my opponent's Grizzly Bears is returned to their hand.
Lightning Axe is countered by the game for not having a legal target.
Fiery Temper resolves, dealing 3 damage to my opponent.
Is all that correct?
Bonus Question: New scenario: If I cast Slip Through Space on TiTi with 2 counters, it resolves, then I cast Uncaged Fury on TiTi, causing it to transform, the Uncaged Fury will still resolve because the Awoken Horror is the same object as the TiTi I declared as a target when I cast it, right? And the Slip Through Space still applies, so my Awoken Horror will be 8/9 double striking and unblockable? Pretty sure about that, figured I'd get confirmation.
As always, thanks for the responses.
What kind of prize pools are typical at FNM booster draft?
At this store, the draft typically costs $15, although you can prepay online for $14 or "buy" 10 drafts for $100. I don't really remember what the prize pools are - last week there were only 4 people (so unsanctioned) and I think the prize distribution was 3-2-1, although I talked the owner into 3-2-1-1.
Thanks.
Without knowing what the card on MTGO was (and assuming it wasn't a bug), it's impossible to say - maybe the player cast a creature with a "When you cast CARDNAME..." trigger, which would go on the stack on top of the creature spell. (For example, if you somehow cast Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and there were no permanents on the battlefield at all, it could NOT target itself with its first ability. Granted, quite contrived, but you get the point.)