Temur Delver was originally called Canadian Threshhold because the people who popularized it were Canadian, I believe.
The opposite is true for Sultai Delver. It was given this name ironically because all of the key cards were thought to be overlooked in the American Legacy meta.
Canadian was the Red splash in the original UG Threshold deck. I do believe that it was popularized by Dave Caplan and the choices that deck made are pretty much the same choices made now-a-days (Wastelands, Stifles, Red splash for Bolts).
That's pretty close to correct for Team America, as I'll show.
Pretty sure team America was because the deck team USA took
Nope, that is not correct at all.
The history behind the creation of this deck is quite interesting, as it sort of started out as a joke deck of Dave Gearhart's, referred to as "Europe". It was blue and black only, played confidants and stalkers as the only creatures, combined with the same LD package as Team America. Also, it played 4 maindeck extirpates and no removal. To say the least it was pretty bad (although pretty fun to play). The name was a reference to the vast differences between European and American legacy meta games, and was a homage to alot of cards that rarely see play in America.
As time went on, Dave and I started changing the deck around, at one point playing dreadnoughts in the main and also adding snuff outs. Eventually tarmogoyfs were added and the deck started looking strong. So, we started testing it and preparing the sideboard and maindeck for the Source tournament. Dave of course was locked in to playing It's The Fear, but me and Eric G. (Bourgeoise) decided to give Team America a shot. Eric had some rotten luck in the swiss (pun intended), but I went X - 0 and wound up finishing in the top 4.
The idea behind Team America was essentially to merge the successful elements of tempo based threshold and suicide black. A proactive disruption suite, and a total of 12 "free" spells (force of will, daze, snuff out), allows this deck to be a tempo-generating machine. The 8 threats it plays must all be answered quickly, as they end the game in short order, and the cantrip base of 4 ponder/4 brainstorm smooth out the deck's consistency; something where traditional suicide strategies tend to fall short.
While Team America does not run as many threats as a deck like Eva Green, and lacks the explosiveness of dark ritual, it gains powerful cards like force of will and daze, along with a cantrip engine. It is not quite as consistent as threshold lists running top but you unfortunately make that sacrifice to be more proactive.
I (as well as Dave) will probably be able to go more in depth with some of the card choices as questions are asked, but the list really is quite tight and well tested. The only real controversy right now is the argument of hymn to tourach over sinkhole. Both cards brutally attack an opponent's resources in different ways, but when it comes down to it it really is a metagame consideration. With more blue based aggro control, hymn is probably going to be stronger. If more multicolored control decks show up, as well as survival, sinkhole is going to probably be a better choice.
I will say this: I ran into threshold type decks a few times in the swiss and still was able to pull out victories, while drawing and playing sinkholes. It is too early to tell which is better, but that's where the development of the deck is currently.
At any rate, please discuss. I hope you guys like the deck as Dave and I (as well as the rest of the NoVA legacy players) put a lot of work into testing it.
P.S. Tombstalker is a very underplayed, amazing threat.
So, yes, the name is a joke, a play on words that reference it's a-typical choices for an "American-made" deck and the American meta-game, a la Team America: World Police.
Tron depends on your deck. Sideboarding Crumble To Dust helps post-board and Stony Silence helps post-board which you'll probably run for Affinity. Path is good against Wurmcoil and if you run Spell Piece that hits Planeswalkers like Kahn or something like a map on the play. Spell Snare can hit a bunch of cards in the deck as well. Decks heavier on Control will do better against Tron, decks heavier on creatures will struggle more.
Well, I'll be on something very much like JulsSkogs' list. I was thinking of getting a Crumble into the board already, so that seems good.
Whirler Rogue actually acts more similar to Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the deck.
You should just be running Elspeth is the thing though. Elspeth is harder for other decks to handle, being that she's a planeswalker, and still helps to stabilize against aggro, as well as making your Geists hit harder, and helping your Snapcasters be real threats when attacking.
Yeah, that was pretty much where I was going with it all.
I picked up a Duel Deck Elspeth, Sun's Champion for the sideboard, so I think I own everything I am looking to run. JulsSkogs, what changes (if any) are you thinking of considering the recent bans?
I have been testing out a couple of Whirler Rogue's maindeck. So far they have been great with Geist and they help slowdown aggro. At first I was on Pia and Kiran Nalaar, but the immediate unblockable effect has been so useful at keeping tempo. I might keep a Pia and Kiran in the sideboard, that card is really useful.
Four mana looks incredibly steep for the actual effect. Plus, if they kill one token the whole card is useless. Frankly, if you are looking for silly ways to make Geist unblockable, just run Writ of Passage. It even has the upside of being uncounterable if you Forecast it. Still is a bad card though.
Still working on what how I want to construct my list for Regionals. Is Tron really a bad match-up? As long as we protect Geist from Pyroclasm, with Angel or Castle it would seem to me that we can tempo them pretty well.
I usually use the Ultra-Pro sideloading deck boxes, like this one here but it seems that they don't make that style any more. I like that these are the perfect size for 75 double-sleeved cards and were pretty inexpensive (which is good, because the art always rubs off after a while).
Any suggestions perhaps? I don't really care what colors, or if it side-loads or not, just has to be able to fit 75 double-sleeved.
I'm not a huge fan of Stony Silence. The biggest issue with it is that we already have a good Affinity matchup, and the card doesn't do enough against Tron. Sure, if you land it on turn two, it can slow them down, but they have the most inevitability of any deck in the format. It doesn't do anything to clock them. It's the same reasoning that I don't like Blood Moon against them, and prefer Molten Rain.
Purge comes in for their Blood Moons.
Wow, that is good to know, I didn't realize that they were running Blood Moon now-a-days, shows how little I know of Modern.
What do you advise for replacing Theads in the sideboard then?
I'm actually the guy that finished 24th at SCG Cinci. I ended up here on a whim, thinking maybe I could skim the thread just to see what others were saying about the archetype, and definitely did not expect to see my list get posted here. That said, I did do a tournament report on Reddit, and wanted to link you guys to it so you can see how the Open actually went for me.
...
Elspeth, Knight-Errant - she's just great in the fair matchups. Being able to jump a Geist over blockers and just smash your opponent for 9 is super powerful. She creates blockers against the creature decks, and helps us grind along with Jund, etc. during game one. There are just a lot of decks that can't handle planeswalkers well.
@.H.: I dropped the Threads from my sideboard, I don't think it's crucial to have. Eiganjo Castle is one of the top 5 cards in the deck. No one knows what that card does until they get blown out by it. Elspeth is a necessity though. That card's just fantastic, nearly unbeatable really, against BGx and Grixis.
Thanks for the insight. It should be easy to find an Elspeth for the board, since I don't really care if I run a Duel Deck one or what.
Do you think a sideboard Stony Silence would be good, since it (obviously) helps against Affinity, but can also help versus Tron (shuts off the mana fixers and Oblivion Stone)?
I am probably going to run into a bunch of Affinity if I bring this to Regionals, along with the usual suspects of Burn and Tron. In reality, I don't often play Modern, so I like that this deck is probably as close to tempo as you could really find and that appeals to the Legacy player in me.
One question though, in your Reddit post, you list Purge as coming in versus Affinity. Could you clarify why that would be? Is there something Red or Black that they now run that I don't know of? Like I said, I don't often play Modern, so I might be missing something.
Seeing that list 24th place list, I think I have found what deck I want to run for the foreseeable future.
Thing is, of course, I need to pick up a Eiganjo Castle to complete the main.
I also don't own a Thread of Disloyalty or an Elspeth, Sun's Champion, but I think I want to aim the board at some different decks, mainly Burn, Tron and Twin. Suggestions perhaps? I'm not really a Modern player often. I am thinking of replacing those two with a Stony Silence and a Crumble to Dust.
I'm waiting on my Wasteland Stranglers to come in, then I'll have everything I need for this deck (I had playsets of Eyes and Temples from when those sets came out), but I am curious about Conduit of Ruin.
On the one hand his search isn't that great, since it can only find Ulamog. On the other, post board, when people are likely to be attacking our mana base, having another source of cost reduction seems pretty good, since they will be putting a big target on Eyes and Temples.
In the end, I guess it probably still isn't worth it though.
Well, on a land versus a Lotus Petal, I think we will be talking past each other for the most part, because I think our expected metas are different. When I am considering my mana base, I am expecting the play a Workshop deck at least once or twice per tournament. In those matchups, I prioritize the ability to develop my mana over several turns. In other words, I am OK with trading explosiveness (Lotus Petal) with more consistency (a land) because in Blue mirrors, I heavily value making land drops. Perhaps I am misevaluating your decklist's role, but I have found the Lotus Petal is often more worth it in fast combo, rather than what could be called, slow combo, or what I would really call combo-control.
For example, I would almost always run Lotus Petal in my Oath decks, because the chance for a turn 1 Oath was absolutely worth it. What I (and other's, like Greg Fenton) realized though, was that the explosiveness was often not worth the long-term effect of not being a permanent mana source. In most Blue versus Blue matchups, having more permanent mana sources can help you play through, or around, most soft permission like Flusterstorm, or even sometimes REBs. This is because more mana over more turns allows your sequencing to be far more open. It is much harder to sequence effectively when one of your mana is only temporary. It also decreaces the amount of "pass the turn" sequences, because on your next turn you would be -1 mana.
Now, this is all very high-level, in the sense that it is an abstraction. In a real game, the fact that Petal is +1 this turn, 0 the next may well be irrelevant. Then again, it may be very relevant. In some cases the Petal will actually be better, say, when you top deck it and am still able to make a land-drop for the turn. While it's often incorrect to anything is strictly superior to another, the case of a Petal versus a land is anything but straight-forward in presenting one over the other. My personal preference in Combo-Control is to err on the side of permanent mana sources, because I am looking at the long-game. If you feel otherwise that is OK, too.
While I've played a good amount of Vintage in my time, I am not going to pretend that I have jammed the hundreds of thousands of games it would take to get statistically relevant data. All I have is what I have experienced. In that experience, as a Mana Drain deck, I want to take a slow-and-steady approach to the game. While my list is three-color and has Dark Confidants, I am still taking an approach that puts me in the range of turn 5-10 kills, rather than turn 1-3, where the speed of Petal is more of a benefit.
Naturally, there are other considerations, like prevalence of Null Rod, hatebears like Thalia, or even Trygon Predator. This is again, why I say that I think our "expected metas" are fundamentally different. While I can't say I've had amazing success (4-3 last Eternal Weekend, when I dropped due to hunger, fatigue, I had 4 wins versus Blue decks, 2 losses in three games to Shops and a punt to Dredge) I still believe that a consistent approach to Combo-Control has merit.
Now, that is a lot of words, all the say in the end, play what works for you. Ultimately, I don't know the meta you are in, so if Petal is giving you the results you want, then go for it. It could well be that your meta is fast, so being faster is a necessity and so the benefit of an extra land versus the Petal is irrelevant.
As for my off-hand remark on Merchant Scroll, well, it comes back again to a consistency issue to me. I'm really not going to say that Merchant Scroll is ever wrong, per se (or, to a lesser extent Mystical Tutor), however it has very rarely impressed me, mostly because of how slow it is, but also because of how it telegraphs our play, which allows our opponent to (often) play around it. Now, again, this is really personal preference, but keep in mind, Merchant Scroll's restriction is tied to a far different era of Vintage than we are in now (Brainstorm was not restricted, Gush was the king), which is to say that Scroll's power level is still reasonable, but it is absolutely not the power-level is was as a 4-of, nor as powerful without 4x Brainstorm. Merchant Scroll's best use now is really as a Gush enabler, but I'm not going to pretend that it isn't without it's uses. I've literally won games off Scroll for Brainstorm, Brainstorm to put back Blightsteel, Tinker for Blightsteel and win. This however is really high variance, but kind of goes back to my earlier point about developing mana. I'll just leave that as it is though.
Merchant Scroll can be good, however, I just feel that on the balance of games, this deck lacks the pressure to entice an opponent to really play into a counter that they know you now have. At that point, if they can't play through a counter, then you'll just win. Realistically though, in my mind, if they can't play through a counter, I'm not seeing how they are going to win at all. Perhaps I am just really undervaluing Scroll, but it's been years since I felt I really wanted Scroll, and considering how efficient Mentor/Delver decks are now-a-days, I don't think I really want to spend the mana and time durdeling around for a counterspell while I am down on the board. Also, Scroll is very bad once one Sphere is on the board (or Thalia) and gets exponentially worse for each one more. Again, more about the expected meta than anything else.
Now, Mystical Tutor is a bit different, since one, it can get any Instant or Sorcery, so it can be suited to getting whatever it is you need to win the game (or something like Toxic Deluge out of the board versus Mentor or something). It's card disadvantage though, which is always dangerous in Blue on Blue matchups. This deck doesn't have very many ways to recoup that, so it is important to use your top-deck tutors in places where it is highly probable to resolve whatever it is. Mystical for Force of Will is a highly dangerous play in my eyes and only worth it if you are desperate, or you know that one counter will win you the game, since you are three-for-oneing yourself to do it. Mystical for Tinker after you've Mind Twisted your opponent though is probably a game winner.
That is all a lengthy way to mainly say, I feel a few choices are questionable, in the sense of that I literally question if they are better than other options. In the end though, considering that your play-style is probably different than mine, that our expected metas are different, and that I've never actually played a deck with more than 1 Mind Twist, your choices may actually be better, however, my experience leads me to at least doubt some of those choices. What it comes down to is your results though. If everything is working as you need it to, then so much the better. If not, then I think there are options to be looked at.
I apologize if I come across as trying to sound authoritative, I am just a guy who plays some Vintage from time to time.
Nice, thanks for the pic, appreciate it. I like that extra space at the top better than kmc's.
I assume you prefer it than kmc, no?
might get some matte blacks later tom at my lgs.
I actually have never used the KMC hyper-mattes. I definitely prefer the DS to the KMC Supers, because my greasy hands render the KMCs gross in very short order.
hi there, anybody got some pics of double sleeved ds mattes?
itching to try em out, might switch to them from KMC's as i'm a bit OC about the top of KMC's being too narrow.
There is a pretty decent amount of room at the top:
I have 7 fetchlands in the deck, the 4 Polluted Deltas are the best for me because they let me get the Underground Sea, the Swamp, and the Island. Most of the advice Ive gotten here and in other places seems to say that I should use 3 blue fetchlands to fill the other slots. It seems to me that the black fetchlands would be a better choice for me. With one swamp I can use three of my tutors to go and get any card I need, including the Island or the Mox Sapphire. At that point, Im mostly back online with access to blue and black mana.
Is there something Im missing that makes the 3 additional blue fetches better then the 3 additional black fetches?
Thanks for your help
I would rather have the 3 Blue fetches. In fact, on the same note, I think the Basic Swamp is actually pretty bad. You almost never want to have it in your opener and fetching it is only a minor help, since it really doesn't cast any of your most important spells, i.e. ones that actually win the game. Sitting on Island-Swamp is miserable when you are holding Mana Drain (it also lets you hold up Drain if they are on the play and want to land a two drop while having a Wasteland). If you meta is so Wasteland heavy, I guess it's inclusion is justifiable, but honestly a second Island is superior in my mind, because it lets you play though Blood Moon, still casting all the Planeswalkers and cantrips. If it was me, I'd probably cut the Swamp for an Island, or at least a Lotus Petal for an Island.
Then again, if it were me, I'd be running Green for Abrupt Decay, because that card is great. I also think that Merchant Scroll is pretty awful and Mystical Tutor is kind of bad. Those are personal opinions though, but I find Merchant Scroll is certainly the worst of them, since it can't get Tinker and at least Mystical can get Will.
Canadian was the Red splash in the original UG Threshold deck. I do believe that it was popularized by Dave Caplan and the choices that deck made are pretty much the same choices made now-a-days (Wastelands, Stifles, Red splash for Bolts).
That's pretty close to correct for Team America, as I'll show.
Nope, that is not correct at all.
So, yes, the name is a joke, a play on words that reference it's a-typical choices for an "American-made" deck and the American meta-game, a la Team America: World Police.
For example, Constricting Tendrils and Proclamation of Rebirth.
Why doesn't this happen more often? Probably because the fact that these are activated abilities would tend to confuse newer players.
Well, I'll be on something very much like JulsSkogs' list. I was thinking of getting a Crumble into the board already, so that seems good.
Yeah, that was pretty much where I was going with it all.
I picked up a Duel Deck Elspeth, Sun's Champion for the sideboard, so I think I own everything I am looking to run. JulsSkogs, what changes (if any) are you thinking of considering the recent bans?
Four mana looks incredibly steep for the actual effect. Plus, if they kill one token the whole card is useless. Frankly, if you are looking for silly ways to make Geist unblockable, just run Writ of Passage. It even has the upside of being uncounterable if you Forecast it. Still is a bad card though.
Still working on what how I want to construct my list for Regionals. Is Tron really a bad match-up? As long as we protect Geist from Pyroclasm, with Angel or Castle it would seem to me that we can tempo them pretty well.
I usually use the Ultra-Pro sideloading deck boxes, like this one here but it seems that they don't make that style any more. I like that these are the perfect size for 75 double-sleeved cards and were pretty inexpensive (which is good, because the art always rubs off after a while).
Any suggestions perhaps? I don't really care what colors, or if it side-loads or not, just has to be able to fit 75 double-sleeved.
Wow, that is good to know, I didn't realize that they were running Blood Moon now-a-days, shows how little I know of Modern.
What do you advise for replacing Theads in the sideboard then?
Thanks for the insight. It should be easy to find an Elspeth for the board, since I don't really care if I run a Duel Deck one or what.
Do you think a sideboard Stony Silence would be good, since it (obviously) helps against Affinity, but can also help versus Tron (shuts off the mana fixers and Oblivion Stone)?
I am probably going to run into a bunch of Affinity if I bring this to Regionals, along with the usual suspects of Burn and Tron. In reality, I don't often play Modern, so I like that this deck is probably as close to tempo as you could really find and that appeals to the Legacy player in me.
One question though, in your Reddit post, you list Purge as coming in versus Affinity. Could you clarify why that would be? Is there something Red or Black that they now run that I don't know of? Like I said, I don't often play Modern, so I might be missing something.
Thing is, of course, I need to pick up a Eiganjo Castle to complete the main.
I also don't own a Thread of Disloyalty or an Elspeth, Sun's Champion, but I think I want to aim the board at some different decks, mainly Burn, Tron and Twin. Suggestions perhaps? I'm not really a Modern player often. I am thinking of replacing those two with a Stony Silence and a Crumble to Dust.
On the one hand his search isn't that great, since it can only find Ulamog. On the other, post board, when people are likely to be attacking our mana base, having another source of cost reduction seems pretty good, since they will be putting a big target on Eyes and Temples.
In the end, I guess it probably still isn't worth it though.
For example, I would almost always run Lotus Petal in my Oath decks, because the chance for a turn 1 Oath was absolutely worth it. What I (and other's, like Greg Fenton) realized though, was that the explosiveness was often not worth the long-term effect of not being a permanent mana source. In most Blue versus Blue matchups, having more permanent mana sources can help you play through, or around, most soft permission like Flusterstorm, or even sometimes REBs. This is because more mana over more turns allows your sequencing to be far more open. It is much harder to sequence effectively when one of your mana is only temporary. It also decreaces the amount of "pass the turn" sequences, because on your next turn you would be -1 mana.
Now, this is all very high-level, in the sense that it is an abstraction. In a real game, the fact that Petal is +1 this turn, 0 the next may well be irrelevant. Then again, it may be very relevant. In some cases the Petal will actually be better, say, when you top deck it and am still able to make a land-drop for the turn. While it's often incorrect to anything is strictly superior to another, the case of a Petal versus a land is anything but straight-forward in presenting one over the other. My personal preference in Combo-Control is to err on the side of permanent mana sources, because I am looking at the long-game. If you feel otherwise that is OK, too.
While I've played a good amount of Vintage in my time, I am not going to pretend that I have jammed the hundreds of thousands of games it would take to get statistically relevant data. All I have is what I have experienced. In that experience, as a Mana Drain deck, I want to take a slow-and-steady approach to the game. While my list is three-color and has Dark Confidants, I am still taking an approach that puts me in the range of turn 5-10 kills, rather than turn 1-3, where the speed of Petal is more of a benefit.
Naturally, there are other considerations, like prevalence of Null Rod, hatebears like Thalia, or even Trygon Predator. This is again, why I say that I think our "expected metas" are fundamentally different. While I can't say I've had amazing success (4-3 last Eternal Weekend, when I dropped due to hunger, fatigue, I had 4 wins versus Blue decks, 2 losses in three games to Shops and a punt to Dredge) I still believe that a consistent approach to Combo-Control has merit.
Now, that is a lot of words, all the say in the end, play what works for you. Ultimately, I don't know the meta you are in, so if Petal is giving you the results you want, then go for it. It could well be that your meta is fast, so being faster is a necessity and so the benefit of an extra land versus the Petal is irrelevant.
As for my off-hand remark on Merchant Scroll, well, it comes back again to a consistency issue to me. I'm really not going to say that Merchant Scroll is ever wrong, per se (or, to a lesser extent Mystical Tutor), however it has very rarely impressed me, mostly because of how slow it is, but also because of how it telegraphs our play, which allows our opponent to (often) play around it. Now, again, this is really personal preference, but keep in mind, Merchant Scroll's restriction is tied to a far different era of Vintage than we are in now (Brainstorm was not restricted, Gush was the king), which is to say that Scroll's power level is still reasonable, but it is absolutely not the power-level is was as a 4-of, nor as powerful without 4x Brainstorm. Merchant Scroll's best use now is really as a Gush enabler, but I'm not going to pretend that it isn't without it's uses. I've literally won games off Scroll for Brainstorm, Brainstorm to put back Blightsteel, Tinker for Blightsteel and win. This however is really high variance, but kind of goes back to my earlier point about developing mana. I'll just leave that as it is though.
Merchant Scroll can be good, however, I just feel that on the balance of games, this deck lacks the pressure to entice an opponent to really play into a counter that they know you now have. At that point, if they can't play through a counter, then you'll just win. Realistically though, in my mind, if they can't play through a counter, I'm not seeing how they are going to win at all. Perhaps I am just really undervaluing Scroll, but it's been years since I felt I really wanted Scroll, and considering how efficient Mentor/Delver decks are now-a-days, I don't think I really want to spend the mana and time durdeling around for a counterspell while I am down on the board. Also, Scroll is very bad once one Sphere is on the board (or Thalia) and gets exponentially worse for each one more. Again, more about the expected meta than anything else.
Now, Mystical Tutor is a bit different, since one, it can get any Instant or Sorcery, so it can be suited to getting whatever it is you need to win the game (or something like Toxic Deluge out of the board versus Mentor or something). It's card disadvantage though, which is always dangerous in Blue on Blue matchups. This deck doesn't have very many ways to recoup that, so it is important to use your top-deck tutors in places where it is highly probable to resolve whatever it is. Mystical for Force of Will is a highly dangerous play in my eyes and only worth it if you are desperate, or you know that one counter will win you the game, since you are three-for-oneing yourself to do it. Mystical for Tinker after you've Mind Twisted your opponent though is probably a game winner.
That is all a lengthy way to mainly say, I feel a few choices are questionable, in the sense of that I literally question if they are better than other options. In the end though, considering that your play-style is probably different than mine, that our expected metas are different, and that I've never actually played a deck with more than 1 Mind Twist, your choices may actually be better, however, my experience leads me to at least doubt some of those choices. What it comes down to is your results though. If everything is working as you need it to, then so much the better. If not, then I think there are options to be looked at.
I apologize if I come across as trying to sound authoritative, I am just a guy who plays some Vintage from time to time.
I actually have never used the KMC hyper-mattes. I definitely prefer the DS to the KMC Supers, because my greasy hands render the KMCs gross in very short order.
I don't see why I can't tell you where I got mine here. I got them in bulk from Potomac Distribution.
There is a pretty decent amount of room at the top:
The perfect-fits are KMC, for reference.
I would rather have the 3 Blue fetches. In fact, on the same note, I think the Basic Swamp is actually pretty bad. You almost never want to have it in your opener and fetching it is only a minor help, since it really doesn't cast any of your most important spells, i.e. ones that actually win the game. Sitting on Island-Swamp is miserable when you are holding Mana Drain (it also lets you hold up Drain if they are on the play and want to land a two drop while having a Wasteland). If you meta is so Wasteland heavy, I guess it's inclusion is justifiable, but honestly a second Island is superior in my mind, because it lets you play though Blood Moon, still casting all the Planeswalkers and cantrips. If it was me, I'd probably cut the Swamp for an Island, or at least a Lotus Petal for an Island.
Then again, if it were me, I'd be running Green for Abrupt Decay, because that card is great. I also think that Merchant Scroll is pretty awful and Mystical Tutor is kind of bad. Those are personal opinions though, but I find Merchant Scroll is certainly the worst of them, since it can't get Tinker and at least Mystical can get Will.