Lets stop arguing about these vorthos feelings on what you want EDH to be, and look at what we gain and lose from changing hybrids to mean "OR":
Positives:
Mono color decks get more tools to work with
More decks get more card options, more variety in the format, hurrah
People who think hybrids mean "OR" can play their hybrids as they understand them
Negatives:
People who insist that hybrids mean "AND" will freak out because the rules no longer explicitly agree with their precious vorthos beliefs.
Decks might like using hybrids a lot and it will slightly enhance good stuff decks (not an actual problem in the format as it's casual)
So yeah I don't see any other reasons not to change hybrids to "OR". It's all gain, and no significant losses to the format.
Mono-color decks getting more cards to work with will either A) have no effect because they aren't good enough or B)reduce variety as everyone crams more goodstuff in their deck. Yay, Kitchen Finks is now in mono-white, mono-green, and white/green! That's less variety, not more.
To your other points, "people who think hybrids mean "OR" can play their hybrids as they understand them" - everyone playing cards as they understand them sounds fun. Imagine the possibilities for all the people who are wrong! The rules of the game, not EDH, define hybrid as AND, not OR. This is not a vorthos thing, this is an actual rule from the actual company who actually created hybrid. So I don't see any reason to change hybrid against the rules of the game. There is little to gain and lots of confusion to add.
in 2 minutes, I have: "Your deck may only include mana sources that can produce mana in your color identity."
"That can produce mana in your color identity" does not restrict you to exclusively your color identity. Breeding Pool can produce mana in my mono-blue color identity, but it also produces a color not in it. So now we have a mono-blue theft deck that runs all of the dual Islands in order to break the game and make it un-fun for everyone else. Oh, and we can't include colorless sources - no Seraph Sanctuary for your angel deck because it doesn't produce white.
I have to ask what the purpose of this rewording is - are you trying to keep it exclusive? Or open it up? There are problems either way. If you word it as you did, it causes problems. If you change it to "may only include mana sources that can produce mana exclusively in your color identity" then you have restricted basic mana fixing (like Darksteel Ingot from being played in all but 5-color decks. And you still need to add a clause allowing colorless mana producers, because neither of those wordings does. This seems clunkier than the current rule (that uses mana symbols to define color identity), which I feel does a great job of representing the flavor of the format.
The IDEA of commander is that you choose a general to lead your army and agree to restrict yourself to only their color(s).
Are there weird cases like including Grixis Panorama in a Dimir deck? Yes. But the rules would have to be even clunkier to exclude that, and the current rules do a fine job - search for a Mountain all you like, but it won't be in there because you can't have one.
"A deck may not generate mana outside its colours. If an effect would generate mana of an illegal colour, it generates colourless mana instead." This just seems so much cleaner.
"If a hybrid card is designated to be your commander, its color identity is all of its colours. If a hybrid card is not designated to be your commander, you may choose any non-empty subset of its colours that would allow you to cast the spell, and treat that as its color identity.
This rule applies only to deck construction - in game, a red-black hybrid card is still considered red (for the purposes of cards like Blue Elemental Blast even if played with a non-red commander.)"
So, for instance, Jund Huckblade would be the deck builder's choice of red-black, or green-black when it is not designated as a commander. Were it legendary, its color identity would always be RGB.
Gleancrawler would be black, green or black and green. Reaper King, when not your commander, can be any combination of colours EXCEPT colourless because of the word 'non-empty'.
I thought you said that was a clean way. So, two color hybrids get special treatment while colorless hybrids get put in the corner with a dunce cap (I'm looking at you, Beseech the Queen) and commanders are forced at gun-point to own up to all of their colors. On top of that, we treat the card differently while building than playing. Not to mention having to explain the whole "any non-empty subset of its colours that would allow you to cast the spell, and treat that as its color identity" phrase to new players.
Granted, you would have to play them differently to avoid "Sorry, you can't Terror/Red Elemental Blast my Oona, Queen of the Fae because I decided it was black, but you can do it to his Oona, Queen of the Fae because his deck is mono-blue," but now you have a convoluted, non-intuitive rule with its own built-in exception.
Look how much cleaner the real rules are - hybrid cards are all of their colors at all times, and you can only include cards of your commander's color(s).
Personally, I feel like producing colors not in your commander's color identity would destabilize the game and turn it into a giant theft-fest rather than people playing their own decks. Theft is still valid, but it isn't overpowered under the current rules.
Luminarch can be nice, pulling aggression away from my walkers and generating big fliers, but more often than not, it got blown up before it went online. Rector is flat out amazing as the blocker you don't mind losing, fetching Mirari's Wake, Doubling Season, Humility, Aura Shards, etc. and putting it on the battlefield.
I'm also thinking that I can cut one mana-fixer (like Pilgrim's Eye) for every two fetchlands that I get my hands on. It'll be nice to add a couple more planeswalkers.
so i have a captian sisay EDH deck and in my opinion the best way to go is actually LESS legends and tune it more towards specific goals. my deck, the one i spent most of my time on focuses on taking legends and removing threats to my board before they happen. in order to do this it means gradually lessening the effectiveness of the possible answers my oponents have to my board. as your prison closes around them, by the time the realize whats happening they will most likely have nothing. the bread and butter of you deck will be gaddock teeg. he should come out early every game and is the building block of where you want to build a board state. from there getting things like dosan, linvala, avecyn and sigarda remove the effectiveness of you opponents cards. then come the fun cards like stearling grove and privileged position. they work to give all you things shroud. at that point you have a board that only loses to maybe 2 cards in all of magic. that is how my deck plays and it uses cards like survival of the fittest, academy rector and sun titan to get there
That's certainly a valid strategy, but the whole reason I built Sisay was to have lots of legends to tutor from. My deck does something similar to yours, answering various opponents and protecting my own board, but we just take a slightly different approach.
Yisan is awesome, helping me to tutor legends and non-legends alike. Hushwing is an answer to ETB deck and only limits a few of my cards. Sylvan Safekeeper can be an answer to spot removal, but was mostly included so I don't have to fail to find on Yisan's first search.
After a few more games, I found Mirari's Wake wasn't actually needed, and I added it to my superfriends deck instead. Melira was too corner-case and was never called for. And Aegis went just to clear another slot.
I actually got my hands on Academy Rector (MWAHAHAHA!!!), so I'm looking to open up another slot. And there's no point in stopping at one slot because Khans of Tarkir brings more goodies.
Khans of Tarkir Superfriends Review
Unfortunately, the two planeswalkers are both duds when it comes to superfriends.
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker (4/10) - This incarnation of Sarkhan is pretty bad for this deck. A 4/4 attacker, even indestructible, is not where this deck wants to go. The other abilities aren't all that great either.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor (5.5/10) - This Sorin is sadly outclassed by Lord of Innistrad. The lifelink isn't all that great, and having to lose loyalty counters to produce tokens is not very good. His ultimate could certainly be useful, but it's not worth building up to.
On the other hand, there are several stand-out cards that can help various superfriends builds.
End Hostilities - Wraths are always welcome, and this one has the added advantage of shutting down voltron decks. I always hate it when I wrath just to have them drop another creature, equip two swords and a Jitte, and then swing in for a ton of damage. This gets rid of not only the creatures, but also their equipments and totem armors. It still takes out other equipment if the creature is indestructible.
Duneblast - Another wrath that could leave your general still standing.
Quiet Contemplation - Not as exciting as the others, but in an enchantress/pillowfort build, it can lock out attackers until you have more permanent answers.
Fetchlands - Definitely cards I will be looking to trade for/hoping to open. These are better when you have dual lands.
Wedge lands - Frontier Bivouac and friends are nice for budget mana fixing
Tournament data should never be used as the grounds for this format's banned list. If I'm in a tournament, I'm using every possible advantage to win and I'm going to optimize the deck I use to do it.
Tournament data is rational and objective. Feelings are not. I'll let you comprehend which is better banning data.
Even if tournament data was gathered and correlated, it would not reflect the average EDH game. The average game is played for fun; tournaments are played for prizes. So, yeah, I may play group hug in casual, but as Burntgerbil said, if it's a tournament, I'm building something broken to win. The spirit of EDH is a fun game where winning is secondary to playing; do you really want the banlist based on spikes?
Secondly, I find it extremely uncomfortable that the banlist is being policed by people (cept maybe one) who's not from Wizards.
Interesting train of thought. Do you find it uncomfortable when people not from wizards create a new format? I would much rather see the creators maintain control rather than having it ripped out of their hands and twisted into something other than what it was intended to be.
Also, for those rejoicing at Erayo's passing, how many of you play in metas where Erayo was a thing even as one of the 99? I can think of decks that might want that (Edric, likely storm), but I've never actually seen it happen. Was she really all that oppressive?
As someone who played Erayo in an Edric deck (and once built a 60-card deck designed to flip her on turn 2), I can tell you that yes, she was that oppressive. I've been considering cutting her for a while now because my playgroup absolutely hates seeing her. Sure, it secures a win, but it kills all the fun for that game.
Me, I'm going to make changes in three of my decks and then go have fun playing some more EDH.
This is the kind of attitude I can get behind. Since I began playing EDH, I have had to remove the following cards from my decks after a banning: Painter's Servant, Primeval Titan, Griselbrand, Sylvan Primordial, Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, and Braids, Cabal Minion. And you know what? I'm still playing and having fun. There are so many other options that you can sleeve up that are still effective.
I'd like to thank the RC for developing this awesome format and for maintaining it even when under fire. I don't always agree with them, but I love the format - and you have to admit that it is more popular than ever. If I have one dispute with their banlist, it's that I think Iona belongs on it - no one card should negate an entire deck, regardless of its archetype.
Might as well keep the necro rolling. I think it's funny that he asked for non-conventional options and people threw a bunch of staples at him. Here's a lesser known cycle that I've found to be hilarious on the occasions that I ran them: Rishadan Cutpurse, Rishadan Footpad, and Rishadan Brigand. People stop tapping out and start slowing down after one or two triggers.
And for something really unconventional, try this - attack with Nacatl War-pride and, in response to the token trigger, Cytoshape the original into any other ETB creature. You now get X copies of whatever creature you want coming into play, where X = the number of creatures that defending player controls.
Animar, Soul of Elements reduces the cost to play creatures and is in the perfect colors to play just about all of the cards that have been mentioned in this thread other than reanimator.
[quote from="TheEndIsNear »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/569096-the-start-of-5-color-superfriends?comment=4"]Is 3 of each pw really too much? /quote]
Yes. I recently cut down to two Garruks because i had several games with one in play and one or two in hand. If I ever get an Apex Predator, I may break this rule, but for now I only run two or less of any given walker.
And Humility is an all-star in a superfriends deck. It single-handedly nerfs most creature-based decks and protects your planeswalkers a lot.
Superfriends is fun. Any particular reason you're not running Sol Ring?
Colorless mana isn't nearly as good in five color, and while it can be powerful early game, it's a pretty dead draw late game. I tried to limit the number of mana rocks, and the three I kept all produce any color and have another advantage (indestructible, fixes all my lands, or multiplies mana production with proliferate). At the end of the day, Sol Ring just gives me two colorless, which only helps if I already have the colors I need and doesn't help if I have excess mana.
I'm looking for all of those, but I either can't find them or don't have anything for trade that the other person wants. And I probably won't anytime soon considering I just depleted more of my binder's value to improve my superfriends deck. Some day...
Phyrexian Metamorph very nearly made it in, but I couldn't figure out what else to cut. As is, I want to increase the planeswalker count possibly as high as 25 (we shall see what goodies the Commander 2014 decks bring). I'm going to play it with the new list and see if I can cut one or two of the non-ramping mana fixers.
I was sad to see some of these go, but I lowered the mana curve and gained extra utility. Acidic Slime is great, but Aura Shards gives all of my creatures that ability (nearly) and isn't nerfed by Humility. Myojin and Relic both interacted with proliferate, but both were slow. Sterling Grove gives my other enchantments protection and can even tutor whichever one I need. And Mirari's Wake doubles my mana (future Teferi tech) and gives me an edge when Humility is out.
I've been toying with building superfriends for a long time and your thread has been very educational and the opening post is extremely well written (i'm not sure why this hasn't been promoted to a Primer). I'm excited to see this weekend's post. One question... If you had zero budget limitations, is there a list of card that you would put in here that you don't have now (that aren't banned)?
I actually applied for primer status about a year ago. The primer committee requested that I make some structural changes, and I started to, but then life intervened. Since then, I have changed jobs, purchased a house, and moved to a different town. Now that things are stabilizing, I'm hoping that I can begin posting regularly again and reapply in a little while.
Zero budget limitation wishlist? Academy Rector, Enlightened Tutor, and original dual lands. This would make my deck more consistent and open up a few mana fixing slots.
Angel of Despair may have recently been outclassed, but it will remain my favorite card - awesome art and a powerful ETB ability in colors than allow it to be recurred either by blinking or through reanimation, all stapled to a big flying body. What's not to love?
Mono-color decks getting more cards to work with will either A) have no effect because they aren't good enough or B)reduce variety as everyone crams more goodstuff in their deck. Yay, Kitchen Finks is now in mono-white, mono-green, and white/green! That's less variety, not more.
To your other points, "people who think hybrids mean "OR" can play their hybrids as they understand them" - everyone playing cards as they understand them sounds fun. Imagine the possibilities for all the people who are wrong! The rules of the game, not EDH, define hybrid as AND, not OR. This is not a vorthos thing, this is an actual rule from the actual company who actually created hybrid. So I don't see any reason to change hybrid against the rules of the game. There is little to gain and lots of confusion to add.
I have to ask what the purpose of this rewording is - are you trying to keep it exclusive? Or open it up? There are problems either way. If you word it as you did, it causes problems. If you change it to "may only include mana sources that can produce mana exclusively in your color identity" then you have restricted basic mana fixing (like Darksteel Ingot from being played in all but 5-color decks. And you still need to add a clause allowing colorless mana producers, because neither of those wordings does. This seems clunkier than the current rule (that uses mana symbols to define color identity), which I feel does a great job of representing the flavor of the format.
The IDEA of commander is that you choose a general to lead your army and agree to restrict yourself to only their color(s).
Are there weird cases like including Grixis Panorama in a Dimir deck? Yes. But the rules would have to be even clunkier to exclude that, and the current rules do a fine job - search for a Mountain all you like, but it won't be in there because you can't have one.
"A deck may not generate mana outside its colours. If an effect would generate mana of an illegal colour, it generates colourless mana instead." This just seems so much cleaner.
I thought you said that was a clean way. So, two color hybrids get special treatment while colorless hybrids get put in the corner with a dunce cap (I'm looking at you, Beseech the Queen) and commanders are forced at gun-point to own up to all of their colors. On top of that, we treat the card differently while building than playing. Not to mention having to explain the whole "any non-empty subset of its colours that would allow you to cast the spell, and treat that as its color identity" phrase to new players.
Granted, you would have to play them differently to avoid "Sorry, you can't Terror/Red Elemental Blast my Oona, Queen of the Fae because I decided it was black, but you can do it to his Oona, Queen of the Fae because his deck is mono-blue," but now you have a convoluted, non-intuitive rule with its own built-in exception.
Look how much cleaner the real rules are - hybrid cards are all of their colors at all times, and you can only include cards of your commander's color(s).
Personally, I feel like producing colors not in your commander's color identity would destabilize the game and turn it into a giant theft-fest rather than people playing their own decks. Theft is still valid, but it isn't overpowered under the current rules.
1 Academy Rector
WAITING FOR
1 Teferi, Temporal Archmage
1 End Hostilities
1 Luminarch Ascension
CHOPPING BLOCK
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Martial Coup
Luminarch can be nice, pulling aggression away from my walkers and generating big fliers, but more often than not, it got blown up before it went online. Rector is flat out amazing as the blocker you don't mind losing, fetching Mirari's Wake, Doubling Season, Humility, Aura Shards, etc. and putting it on the battlefield.
I'm also thinking that I can cut one mana-fixer (like Pilgrim's Eye) for every two fetchlands that I get my hands on. It'll be nice to add a couple more planeswalkers.
Meanwhile, I've made a few changes.
1 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
1 Hushwing Gryff
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Aegis of the Gods
Yisan is awesome, helping me to tutor legends and non-legends alike. Hushwing is an answer to ETB deck and only limits a few of my cards. Sylvan Safekeeper can be an answer to spot removal, but was mostly included so I don't have to fail to find on Yisan's first search.
After a few more games, I found Mirari's Wake wasn't actually needed, and I added it to my superfriends deck instead. Melira was too corner-case and was never called for. And Aegis went just to clear another slot.
Khans of Tarkir Superfriends Review
Unfortunately, the two planeswalkers are both duds when it comes to superfriends.
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker (4/10) - This incarnation of Sarkhan is pretty bad for this deck. A 4/4 attacker, even indestructible, is not where this deck wants to go. The other abilities aren't all that great either.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor (5.5/10) - This Sorin is sadly outclassed by Lord of Innistrad. The lifelink isn't all that great, and having to lose loyalty counters to produce tokens is not very good. His ultimate could certainly be useful, but it's not worth building up to.
On the other hand, there are several stand-out cards that can help various superfriends builds.
End Hostilities - Wraths are always welcome, and this one has the added advantage of shutting down voltron decks. I always hate it when I wrath just to have them drop another creature, equip two swords and a Jitte, and then swing in for a ton of damage. This gets rid of not only the creatures, but also their equipments and totem armors. It still takes out other equipment if the creature is indestructible.
Duneblast - Another wrath that could leave your general still standing.
Clever Impersonator - This is awesome. I have been considering adding Phyrexian Metamorph for added utility, but Clever Impersonator blows it out of the water. This can be a second Doubling Season, Rings of Brighthearth, etc. or can clone a planeswalker - sure, you lose the original, but activating another loyalty ability that turn can be worth it.
Quiet Contemplation - Not as exciting as the others, but in an enchantress/pillowfort build, it can lock out attackers until you have more permanent answers.
Fetchlands - Definitely cards I will be looking to trade for/hoping to open. These are better when you have dual lands.
Wedge lands - Frontier Bivouac and friends are nice for budget mana fixing
There are multiplayer EDH tournaments, so it could exist. That being said, I don't think it should be used.
Interesting train of thought. Do you find it uncomfortable when people not from wizards create a new format? I would much rather see the creators maintain control rather than having it ripped out of their hands and twisted into something other than what it was intended to be.
This is the kind of attitude I can get behind. Since I began playing EDH, I have had to remove the following cards from my decks after a banning: Painter's Servant, Primeval Titan, Griselbrand, Sylvan Primordial, Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, and Braids, Cabal Minion. And you know what? I'm still playing and having fun. There are so many other options that you can sleeve up that are still effective.
I'd like to thank the RC for developing this awesome format and for maintaining it even when under fire. I don't always agree with them, but I love the format - and you have to admit that it is more popular than ever. If I have one dispute with their banlist, it's that I think Iona belongs on it - no one card should negate an entire deck, regardless of its archetype.
And for something really unconventional, try this - attack with Nacatl War-pride and, in response to the token trigger, Cytoshape the original into any other ETB creature. You now get X copies of whatever creature you want coming into play, where X = the number of creatures that defending player controls.
Defense of the Heart
Pattern of Rebirth
Gamekeeper
Animar, Soul of Elements reduces the cost to play creatures and is in the perfect colors to play just about all of the cards that have been mentioned in this thread other than reanimator.
Yes. I recently cut down to two Garruks because i had several games with one in play and one or two in hand. If I ever get an Apex Predator, I may break this rule, but for now I only run two or less of any given walker.
And Humility is an all-star in a superfriends deck. It single-handedly nerfs most creature-based decks and protects your planeswalkers a lot.
I'm looking for all of those, but I either can't find them or don't have anything for trade that the other person wants. And I probably won't anytime soon considering I just depleted more of my binder's value to improve my superfriends deck. Some day...
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Acidic Slime
1 Coalition Relic
1 Myojin of Cleansing Fire
1 Duplicant
1 Ajani Steadfast
1 Aura Shards
1 Farseek
1 Sterling Grove
1 Mirari's Wake
Phyrexian Metamorph very nearly made it in, but I couldn't figure out what else to cut. As is, I want to increase the planeswalker count possibly as high as 25 (we shall see what goodies the Commander 2014 decks bring). I'm going to play it with the new list and see if I can cut one or two of the non-ramping mana fixers.
I was sad to see some of these go, but I lowered the mana curve and gained extra utility. Acidic Slime is great, but Aura Shards gives all of my creatures that ability (nearly) and isn't nerfed by Humility. Myojin and Relic both interacted with proliferate, but both were slow. Sterling Grove gives my other enchantments protection and can even tutor whichever one I need. And Mirari's Wake doubles my mana (future Teferi tech) and gives me an edge when Humility is out.
I actually applied for primer status about a year ago. The primer committee requested that I make some structural changes, and I started to, but then life intervened. Since then, I have changed jobs, purchased a house, and moved to a different town. Now that things are stabilizing, I'm hoping that I can begin posting regularly again and reapply in a little while.
Zero budget limitation wishlist?
Academy Rector, Enlightened Tutor, and original dual lands. This would make my deck more consistent and open up a few mana fixing slots.