As someone who loves Weirding, and is trying to break it in Modern, let me add a few basics about how to abuse it. The oldest idea (around Ice Age) was to use it alongside Fountain of Youth, gaining 2 life a turn, and denying them every draw. With the current card pool, that is no longer enough, as Dredge and Flashback both sidestep it. One answer to that is to sideboard against flashback, and main-deck Ensnaring Bridge. The bridge protects against creatures, which are the only threats from dredge, conveniently enough. The other thing to do is strip their hand, and drop weirding with a high life total, or life gain in play. I have never seen someone recover from that lock, barring a flashback spell into a combo.
That list is different than mine, but you get the idea. We don't have artifact lands to abuse, so reshape isn't bonkers for us like it was in that list.
It's a fairly stock list with 4 OtV and 1 FR main. Emmy and Pyrite Spellbomb for finishers main. Resolving KCI is a problem against UWR and Twin variants. The old Extended lists won't help much - as they had broken stuff to abuse like Cunning Wish, Archaeological Dig, Treva's Ruins, Krosan wayfarer, etc. I just think there may be a better way to do this, as we only need, or at least want, 1 of mine and power plant. If we run 4 tower, and 1 each of the other 2, we can run real lands, and tutor the tron online. Giving up cantrips is ok if we replace them with either another spell that will dig us deeper, or will allow us to survive for another draw step. When you look at the Pre-ban Eggs lists, you'll see they only ran 16-18 "eggs", but ran tutors (reshape for bloom), and 7 sorceries to set up chains (serum visions and sleight of hand). When you look at the old Extended lists, you'll see the same pattern. Tron works for us because it helps fuel Emmy or something huge. I don't think it's necessary to have tron online to win, and I will say that out of the games I've won, 60% or better are without tron, or I had it, and it wasn't relevant. KCI is necessary now in order to generate more mana, due to FR and OtV being more expensive. I'll try to put up a list after work tonight that eliminates some of the weaknesses I feel current lists have. I'm almost locked on Edge in a FR build, though.
T3 tron through a Leak or Remand isn't that great - You still have to cast something else through that Leak or Remand. In my testing so far, I often wind up with tron online by turn 4 or 5, and have nothing to do with it. Tron is impressive until you say "Urza's *land here*, chromatic star... umm... sac... sac..., pass turn?"
This is why I am brewing a list similar to the old eggs list. It had fewer cantrips, and almost never fizzled. The reason for that was serum visions and sleight of hand main. While those aren't artifacts, they help set things up. In short, my testing has shown the list I am testing now, which is the OtV version with full tron is great until an opponent has a dissolve or mana leak, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of flex to the deck, so boarding is a pain.
Well, bear in mind that the old Extended list didn't pack 12 tron-lands. If I had to suggest something radical, I would cut the Urza lands to just a set, and tutor them via sylvan scrying, or expedition maps. You could also try just ramping with edge, mana rocks, solemn sim, etc. Right now, I'm struggling with the inclusion of the tron-lands, I just don't see them as the asset they should be in this deck.
edge of autumn is a good card for builds heavy on FR... Early, it can grab a land you need, and later, it draws you a card, and "untaps" a land via FR.
I should note, this is old tech from Extended Eggs, but you could also use Summer Bloom to play additional lands that are drawn. The more I think about it, the more Green seems to have to offer us.
Is there any reason reshape and lotus bloom aren't being run here? With a 1-of of bloom, mox opal, and a few reshapes, you would gain access to a powerful tutor. The only real downside I see is the UU in the cost. Also, 17 lands might be the way to go, as it would make stony silence less of an auto-win against us.
The solution is simple - run tournies that allow players to Proxy cards. This has to be supported at the local level, though. Legacy events can be done allowing ten proxies. Of course, the event can't be sanctioned, but running a legacy event that has a FoW as a prize for 1st is a pretty good crowd-drawer. For Vintage, unfortunately, I don't see a solution outside of limited reprints.
I don't see how this will solve anything but can acutally make it worse by promoting the buying/use of more proxy/fakes.
This used to be fairly common practice, actually. The idea is you're a guy who wants legacy cards, but you're 16 and in school, no job, etc. You enter a 10-proxy legacy event at your local game store, 1st prize is a FoW or other high-dollar card for legacy. If you win, you're that much closer to trading or completing a legacy deck. If you don't win, you got a taste of Legacy without having to buy Duals and Fetches, for example. When we used to do this, people actually bought MORE old legacy cards, because it meant that they could slowly build the deck AND play it at the same time. A lot of good legacy decks are still expensive with 10 proxies. I am hoping to get my LGS on this path, if succesful, then I will build either Lands or Landstill, both of which are crazy expensive. I almost have a deal worked out for my 2 Tabernacles, so I hope they aren't forced to sit in my binder while I slowly buy a piece here and there.
The solution is simple - run tournies that allow players to Proxy cards. This has to be supported at the local level, though. Legacy events can be done allowing ten proxies. Of course, the event can't be sanctioned, but running a legacy event that has a FoW as a prize for 1st is a pretty good crowd-drawer. For Vintage, unfortunately, I don't see a solution outside of limited reprints.
Playing with counterfeits in anything other than casual is never acceptable. And it is only acceptable in casual when you are open about it ahead of time and gain permission from everyone at the table playing. Using a counterfeit card is, in my opinion, 100% lazy. If you cannot afford the card you want, then go get a job. If you have a job, then go get a better one. Go back to school or go learn a trade. There are plenty of ways to afford the cards. There is a terrible shortage of skilled trades workers and medical professionals. The jobs are there if you want to learn how to do them. Stop being lazy, go do it and earn a good check and buy legitimate cards. And further, after reading the posts on this website, it can be determined with high degree of certainty that MTG players are intelligent people. Our words, whether spoken or written, are clear and articulate. The difference between many of us is that some are contempt to be lazy and some are driven. Which are you? And don't say that you are young and can't get a job. I've never seen a collection of a 13 year old as strong as someone in their mid-30s who has been playing early/mid 90s. It takes time and money to build your collection. Do it with integrity.
Don't fault WOTC because they made an outstanding game that turned into a collectible. Only things that start out as a hobby turn into collectibles. Baseball cards, comic books, video games, etc. The list goes on and on. Things that start out marketed as collectibles never amount to anything including beanie babies, precious moments, etc. And notice that things that start as hobbies and turn into collectibles do the same thing that happened to baseball cards and comics. Only the old and rare ones are truly worth anything and most printed within the past 20 years don't carry or sustain the value they once had. The reason? People realized they are collectible and are now keeping them in excellent condition. Value comes from rarity. It is simple economics - supply and demand.
As someone who owns a real Lotus, I'll weigh in here - I can empathize with most of what you're saying, except for the fact that the high dollar cards are damn-near required for certain formats. This game should NOT be about who has a good job. You missed that. It's a game for most of us - albeit competitive for a lot of us. If it were simply collecting, everyone would care about counterfeits. It's not about collecting, though. It's about Legacy tournaments being won by guys that have the income to buy cards. As for laziness, well, I know plenty of guys that play this game, and they aren't lazy - they just can't justify spending over 15 grand on being equipped to play a game. I know doctors that would laugh at you if you told them they had to spend 15k on special clubs to play Golf. I have a pretty good job guy, I'm not lazy. I'm just smart enough to know that I'd rather pay 500 dollars than 5k. My first real Lotus cost 800 dollars US. That same card is worth 3.5 - 4k right now. My counterfeit cost 500. Which would you rather pay? Simple economics is simple. Counterfeits will be available for this game until the cards aren't worth the time and money to make fakes for anymore.
Well, I have a counterfeit Lotus, so I'll weigh in here. I know lots of players will say things like "I'd NEVER use a counterfeit, it ruins the game, it's lying, it's cheating, etc". But let's be honest here - the prices of the P9 have gone up significantly in just the last 12-18 months. A near mint beta Lotus will run you what? 5k? A near mint Mox Sapphire is fetching 1500-2000 dollars. Look, I make a decent living (sure, I'm no doctor or lawyer, but that's my fault) as a middle-class American. My counterfeit passes the bend test, the light test, and some guy even put it in a microwave for 20 seconds. I have had others look at it next to their beta lotii, and they couldn't tell. So, guess what? I'm on the hunt for an attractively priced bb sapphire now.
Now, don't get me wrong - I wouldn't try and sell it to someone without telling them it's a fake, but I have played it in vintage tourneys, and loaned it to a friend to play vintage. I know someone who has a whole set of P9 that's counterfeit, if it weren't for those cards, he wouldn't be able to play vintage at all. Heck, Legacy is the direct result of people objecting to the steep buy-in for Type I (now called "vintage"), and that was before Lotus hit the 2k mark. Now, Vintage can have a buy-in of upwards of 15k. Legacy is slowly getting there, as it's the preferred "eternal" format today, and has risen in popularity a lot recently, therefore demand for legacy staples is up. When legacy prices shot up, suddenly WotC pushed Modern. Now we are seeing the same thing with Modern staples.
Counterfeits are a double-edged sword. They're good for the game, but bad for collectors. They're great for getting people into expensive formats cheaply, but they make people who have originals sad. The solution is obvious, but WotC won't use it. They'll keep making up formats, and pushing draft in PTQ's to sell packs.
I guess the problem I have is deciding what removal and support to run. The core I listed is pretty firm on the Firemanes, they seem weak in a field of lightning bolts and snapcasters, but you have to bear in mind you will almost never hard cast Firemane angel, more importantly, you can play Weirding, and if your opponent doesn't let you draw her, you still gain 1 life every upkeep. We're in Blue and White for sure, so Supreme Verdict/Wrath/Day/etc can be run. We could even do 1-of wraths with Gifts to search them out. If we go Red, then we want to go pretty deep into red for access to Anger of the Gods, I think (of course Lightning Bolt and Helix are both solid too). Dispatch is a strict upgrade to Path if we run enough artifacts, same for Galvanic or Stoic. Celestial Colonnade is an excellent suggestion. Black gives us access to Thoughtseize and IoK, Duress, black removals, and Ashiok. We could run no wraths and go for Ensnaring Bridge, although Abrubt Decay would become a concern. I think if we go Black, then Thoughtseize and friends are a necessity to clear the way for Bridge. If we don't go Black, then we go for mass removals. I don't think green offers us much, so that leaves Red, and we might as well plan on going deep for the cool toys like Anger of the Gods, possibly Electrolyze, Galvanic Blast, Stoic Rebuttal, and Dispatch. We still need room for draw and manipulation, though, and I think Thirst for Knowledge works with artifacts pretty well.
A sample list with a minor metalcraft theme:
4x Zur's Weirding
3x Firemane Angel
4x Fountain of Youth
1x Trading Post
1x Pithing Needle
4x Mox Opal
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Dispatch
4x Stoic Rebuttal
1x Wrath of God
1x Day of Judgement
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Path to Exile
3x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Mind Stone
1x Trip Noose
1x Codex Shredder
1x Welding Jar
That's the direction I think I will start in - You'll note that I had to Tweak some numbers to get stuff in the deck. The wraths are 1-ofs for now, I was thinking about maybe a small gifts package, but I'll start here first.
I am interested in the viability of establishing a Zur's Weirding lock in modern. I think it can be done, although Thoughtseize and friends are not helpful to us. I am thinking of a core that looks like :
The idea of this core is that we take the old combo from 1998 - which was 2 fountains in play + Zur's = no more drawing for the opponent, and we update it. In current modern decks we have to worry about flashback, and dredge once the lock is up - but it's easy to take care of that, so this seems like it could work. This shell will allow us to activate metalcraft, which isn't so hot, necessarily, but gives us access to cute tricks like Dispatch, Galvanic Blast, and possibly even tricks like Stoic Rebuttal. Any opinions are welcome.
http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Extended_Sunny_Side_Up_deck
That list is different than mine, but you get the idea. We don't have artifact lands to abuse, so reshape isn't bonkers for us like it was in that list.
This is why I am brewing a list similar to the old eggs list. It had fewer cantrips, and almost never fizzled. The reason for that was serum visions and sleight of hand main. While those aren't artifacts, they help set things up. In short, my testing has shown the list I am testing now, which is the OtV version with full tron is great until an opponent has a dissolve or mana leak, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of flex to the deck, so boarding is a pain.
I should note, this is old tech from Extended Eggs, but you could also use Summer Bloom to play additional lands that are drawn. The more I think about it, the more Green seems to have to offer us.
This used to be fairly common practice, actually. The idea is you're a guy who wants legacy cards, but you're 16 and in school, no job, etc. You enter a 10-proxy legacy event at your local game store, 1st prize is a FoW or other high-dollar card for legacy. If you win, you're that much closer to trading or completing a legacy deck. If you don't win, you got a taste of Legacy without having to buy Duals and Fetches, for example. When we used to do this, people actually bought MORE old legacy cards, because it meant that they could slowly build the deck AND play it at the same time. A lot of good legacy decks are still expensive with 10 proxies. I am hoping to get my LGS on this path, if succesful, then I will build either Lands or Landstill, both of which are crazy expensive. I almost have a deal worked out for my 2 Tabernacles, so I hope they aren't forced to sit in my binder while I slowly buy a piece here and there.
As someone who owns a real Lotus, I'll weigh in here - I can empathize with most of what you're saying, except for the fact that the high dollar cards are damn-near required for certain formats. This game should NOT be about who has a good job. You missed that. It's a game for most of us - albeit competitive for a lot of us. If it were simply collecting, everyone would care about counterfeits. It's not about collecting, though. It's about Legacy tournaments being won by guys that have the income to buy cards. As for laziness, well, I know plenty of guys that play this game, and they aren't lazy - they just can't justify spending over 15 grand on being equipped to play a game. I know doctors that would laugh at you if you told them they had to spend 15k on special clubs to play Golf. I have a pretty good job guy, I'm not lazy. I'm just smart enough to know that I'd rather pay 500 dollars than 5k. My first real Lotus cost 800 dollars US. That same card is worth 3.5 - 4k right now. My counterfeit cost 500. Which would you rather pay? Simple economics is simple. Counterfeits will be available for this game until the cards aren't worth the time and money to make fakes for anymore.
Well, I have a counterfeit Lotus, so I'll weigh in here. I know lots of players will say things like "I'd NEVER use a counterfeit, it ruins the game, it's lying, it's cheating, etc". But let's be honest here - the prices of the P9 have gone up significantly in just the last 12-18 months. A near mint beta Lotus will run you what? 5k? A near mint Mox Sapphire is fetching 1500-2000 dollars. Look, I make a decent living (sure, I'm no doctor or lawyer, but that's my fault) as a middle-class American. My counterfeit passes the bend test, the light test, and some guy even put it in a microwave for 20 seconds. I have had others look at it next to their beta lotii, and they couldn't tell. So, guess what? I'm on the hunt for an attractively priced bb sapphire now.
Now, don't get me wrong - I wouldn't try and sell it to someone without telling them it's a fake, but I have played it in vintage tourneys, and loaned it to a friend to play vintage. I know someone who has a whole set of P9 that's counterfeit, if it weren't for those cards, he wouldn't be able to play vintage at all. Heck, Legacy is the direct result of people objecting to the steep buy-in for Type I (now called "vintage"), and that was before Lotus hit the 2k mark. Now, Vintage can have a buy-in of upwards of 15k. Legacy is slowly getting there, as it's the preferred "eternal" format today, and has risen in popularity a lot recently, therefore demand for legacy staples is up. When legacy prices shot up, suddenly WotC pushed Modern. Now we are seeing the same thing with Modern staples.
Counterfeits are a double-edged sword. They're good for the game, but bad for collectors. They're great for getting people into expensive formats cheaply, but they make people who have originals sad. The solution is obvious, but WotC won't use it. They'll keep making up formats, and pushing draft in PTQ's to sell packs.
A sample list with a minor metalcraft theme:
4x Zur's Weirding
3x Firemane Angel
4x Fountain of Youth
1x Trading Post
1x Pithing Needle
4x Mox Opal
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Dispatch
4x Stoic Rebuttal
1x Wrath of God
1x Day of Judgement
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Path to Exile
3x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Mind Stone
1x Trip Noose
1x Codex Shredder
1x Welding Jar
That's the direction I think I will start in - You'll note that I had to Tweak some numbers to get stuff in the deck. The wraths are 1-ofs for now, I was thinking about maybe a small gifts package, but I'll start here first.
Core:
4x Zur's Weirding
4x Firemane Angel
2x Kudoltha Phoenix
4x Fountain of Youth
1x Trading Post
1x Pithing Needle
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Mox Opal
1x Relic of Progenitus
The idea of this core is that we take the old combo from 1998 - which was 2 fountains in play + Zur's = no more drawing for the opponent, and we update it. In current modern decks we have to worry about flashback, and dredge once the lock is up - but it's easy to take care of that, so this seems like it could work. This shell will allow us to activate metalcraft, which isn't so hot, necessarily, but gives us access to cute tricks like Dispatch, Galvanic Blast, and possibly even tricks like Stoic Rebuttal. Any opinions are welcome.