How do you guys think this will work without a Lands-Matter theme? For example, in a smaller cube without the Horizon Lands and Titania
If you play fetches at 360, I think this still wants to be on your list, but could be behind BBE and Atarka and maybe Huntmaster, so right on the border. Its backup mode of "really slow Arc Lightning" isn't terrible, but will be disappointing compared to "+1: Draw a land card."
I think I'm convinced to give this a try, as I always want to get more players on the blue tempo train. This seems pretty gross behind stuff like Looter, Geist, and TNN.
Really awful news. Though I'm active on Reddit, its sub doesn't come close to matching the great discussion and debate that happens here. I hope we're all able to find a suitable place to keep the community active.
I think this card is excellent in a sacrifice archetype, a super fun card overall and am slamming it into my cube.
However, I think people who don't support aristocrats AND run smaller powered cubes will be disappointed if they expect much from him.
He requires considerable setup before he becomes a power house, and if your format has a lot of decks that go way over the top, grindy decks that support him may not be well suited to that format.
In that kind of format I'd want my black agro decks to disrupt the opponents mana base/hand and/or kill fast as possible. Yawgmoth does neither.
IE he'd be stone unplayable in the MTGO vintage cube.
The more creature heavy and slower the format, the better. Against a green or white creature deck, yawgmoth seems utterly absurd.
This is more or less where I'm at on Yawgmoth. I don't think he's an autoinclude at all, though I'll be giving him a shot if I can get my hands on one. He does have one of the key advantages to being a good cube card, in my eyes: the decks that want him REALLY want him. But he's going to be very matchup dependent, and I think there are going to be a decent number of times where he feels disappointing.
Wait, so does everyone think these are better than signets? I always thought the conventional wisdom was the opposite.
Signets sometimes lead to situations where you have two islands and a blue signet, with Force Spike and Counterspell in hand, but can't keep both up because of the way Signets filter. Talismans let you cast both. Talismans also let you cast a talisman turn 2 and follow it up with a 1-drop, where Signets only let you cast the Signet turn 2.
At the same time, the point of pain from the Talisman is a real cost that can swing games if you find yourself needing to lean on it too heavily for colored mana production. For the most part, I've found that decks that care about things like making a Talisman into a one-drop on T2 are the same decks that cut the Signet/Talisman from their final build anyway.
I've got no quarrel with folks who make the swap. I just think I'm fine with keeping the Signets for now.
Wait, so does everyone think these are better than signets? I always thought the conventional wisdom was the opposite.
I don't know about conventional wisdom, but I also prefer Signets to Talismans (and hybridlands to painlands) so I don't think I'll be making the switch.
Glad I'm running at 720 and can probably play all ten Swords when the cycle finally finishes. This one looks fun, though it's at best in the middle of the pack. It does provide an effect an aggro deck wants, and two very good protection colors.
All the discussion of this card makes me want to see a Disenchant that's been upgraded like Return to Nature (e.g. destroy target artifact or enchantment, OR do some other relevant thing). Not sure quite what that would look like... Return to Nature already took exiling something from the yard. Some number of lifegain might do it, or maybe a Mana Tithe effect.
My Gruul section right now is BBE, Atarka, Huntmaster, Xenagos PW, Domri Anarch, Gruul Spellbreaker, and Kessig Wolf Run. I'd like to give the Spellbreaker a longer look, so it seems like Kessig Wolf Run is gonna go. I really like both Xenagos and new Domri... I've never been a fan of the first Domri, and I think I'm lower on Sarkhan Vol than the rest of this forum.
Hmm I may be misevaluating this card based on hype I see here. From our experience the Chandra Pyromaster repeatable ping effect never seemed to do anything... I get that it is different on a 2-mana card, but the effect is absolutely nothing like an Arc Lightning.
I'd look at it this way: once you have a fetchland, or any land you're going to repeatedly send to the graveyard, this is a two-mana PW with +1: Draw a card. Which is already an outstanding value, but then it also has the bonus mode of cleaning up one-toughness threats, and a plausible and relevant ultimate. But the land recovery is the important thing.
Soooooo, replacing Disenchant or in addition to? With the recent cuts of two artifact destruction cards from my own 540 Cube and the fact I've always wanted a Naturalize in the Cube I'm leading to having it plus Disenchant.
I added Return to Nature from WAR but haven't seen it in action yet.
It does seem weird to keep Disenchant and not add this, but even at 720 I'd rather not push out a strong Selesnya card like Dryad Militant or Knight of the Reliquary for this effect.
It's important to note that while this is obviously great against token armies and tribal builds, the floor of being Noxious Groodion will be fine against decks playing non-evasive midrange beaters. I love cards that can start in the maindeck but are fine to side out aggressively when they're not needed for a match, as opposed to cards which will always start in the sideboard and then maybe come in sometimes.
If you play fetches at 360, I think this still wants to be on your list, but could be behind BBE and Atarka and maybe Huntmaster, so right on the border. Its backup mode of "really slow Arc Lightning" isn't terrible, but will be disappointing compared to "+1: Draw a land card."
This is more or less where I'm at on Yawgmoth. I don't think he's an autoinclude at all, though I'll be giving him a shot if I can get my hands on one. He does have one of the key advantages to being a good cube card, in my eyes: the decks that want him REALLY want him. But he's going to be very matchup dependent, and I think there are going to be a decent number of times where he feels disappointing.
At the same time, the point of pain from the Talisman is a real cost that can swing games if you find yourself needing to lean on it too heavily for colored mana production. For the most part, I've found that decks that care about things like making a Talisman into a one-drop on T2 are the same decks that cut the Signet/Talisman from their final build anyway.
I've got no quarrel with folks who make the swap. I just think I'm fine with keeping the Signets for now.
I don't know about conventional wisdom, but I also prefer Signets to Talismans (and hybridlands to painlands) so I don't think I'll be making the switch.
I'd look at it this way: once you have a fetchland, or any land you're going to repeatedly send to the graveyard, this is a two-mana PW with +1: Draw a card. Which is already an outstanding value, but then it also has the bonus mode of cleaning up one-toughness threats, and a plausible and relevant ultimate. But the land recovery is the important thing.
I added Return to Nature from WAR but haven't seen it in action yet.
It does seem weird to keep Disenchant and not add this, but even at 720 I'd rather not push out a strong Selesnya card like Dryad Militant or Knight of the Reliquary for this effect.