Both were $20 at the LGS I was at tonight, and while I didn't buy either of them, I was seriously debating it. Ideally I'd like to try and trade for them, but anyway... EDIT: Although now that I look at their prices online, methinks I would be ordering them or trading...
Veil would be for my 1v1 Kaalia deck, which is certainly not complete or even testable at the moment, I'm missing a lot of cards for it, and just plain don't have pseudo-replacements. She's the older card, so her value is probably going to stay around that.
Dark Realms would be for Drana, who is a complete, playable deck (one of my only ones at the moment, lol...). She'd be dropped for a land to make it straight 40, and it's a big mana deck so she definitely fits in.
So, I'm curious as to which one y'all would buy first, for one thing. The other thing is that I'm just curious as to how 3.0 plays in general, so let's SCD her.
I would go ahead and get Liliana of the Veil now, since it seems like the most likely to go up in price and that put's you one step closer to finishing your Kalia deck.
But why not fit every spot with a better creature like wood elves or farhaven elf first? Also, how does him sending himself to the graveyard matter? The one example you gave with grave pact will probably matter 10% of the time because you will most likely already have a sac outlet. Is there anything outside of a little with grave pact combo that you seem him being useful for? Also, if you can reanimate him (why would you?) the cards I just mentioned are still better besides the specific interaction with grave pact.
It's just that I see so many other cards worth the mana and slot before him.
Well the whole deck isn't fleshed out yet, I could possibly run all three (Jarad like to munch on lands). Reanimation wise, I was thinking about running Oversold Cemetery, so it would be recursion instead of reanimation (I wouldn't waste a reanimate on him unless I just needed a body) and the 10% of the time I don't have a sac outlet I will be glad to have him. Also 1 mana draw fours are good I hear (Skullclamp). If all I cared about was ramping, then yes the other two are better, but that isn't all I care about.
Ok, so you enter your 3rd turn. You cast Elder. Assuming he is not exiled or sent farming, you get to untap on the ever so important turn 4 and spend half your turn's mana to make use of him. Now you spend your turn 4 casting a 2 drop instead of a much more impactful 4 drop. This is poor.
If you used Wood Elves in the above example, you untap on turn 4 with 5 available mana.
As you can see, you are effectively 3 mana ahead in development over where you otherwise might have been. And what do you get by foregoing this strong advantage? An extra land (in hand) and a cantrip.
Late game, consider how poor a topdeck Elder really is. He's not a 3 for 1, I'll let you know, because 2 basic lands is not what you really need at that point in the game.
And beside that, if all you want is a creature then Wood Elf will give you that creature while also providing you a land. Elder doesn't give you any benefit until he dies, at which point you don't have a creature for the equipment anymore (which is what you really wanted, right?).
Sure, Elder isn't bad. But he's not a holy saint by any stretch. I'd play him in mono-green, but in any deck with other colors I have better things to do with my mana.
I never said he was a holy saint. I was pointing out why he is good in the situations he is good in. I mean if you really want to argue it like that wood elves isn't good because I can play Sol Ring. Of course we both know that is not true. Some decks just need different things.
For instance, I am going to be building a fairly run of the mil Jarad deck (or I assume run of the mill since he technically isn't out yet), Sacrificey, dredgey, reanimation stuff. Yavimaya Elder plays a good role in that because A) He has a death effect, so I get value out of him even going to the grave B) He sacs him self, so I can trigger Grave Pact and other cards that care about creatures dying and C)He is a creature, so recurring him for multiple sac will be fairly easy. All three of those points make him better for that deck that the 3cc Cultivate.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that he is the best green 3 drop, I know I'm not. I am just saying don't dismiss him so easily. See if he can fill a role in your deck.
You spend 5 mana and a card for 2 basic lands and a random draw off the top. It's generally a poor investment compared to other cards one might be running.
As a general observation I find most people really underestimate just how much of a drawback mana costs are when placed in activated/triggered abilities for your permanents. Unless it's really powerful for really cheap, like Glen Elendra Archmage, or really back-breaking, like Memnarch, then it's probably overrated.
As for the whole Wood Elves thing, sure, I'd rather play the Elf before Elder - however I'd rather play Cultivate before I play either. It's the same price as the Elf, and the same amount of ramp, but with the end result that I feel 2 lands > 1 land + a 1/1.
Yeah but the five mana is broken up across a couple of turns, and the sac effect is instant speed which is relevant. He is a blocker and can wear buffs/equipment. As has been said, there are decks where he is a better choice that other things you could play in that slot.
Along these lines, I severely disagree that cards should be on the banned list because they "accidentally ruin games".
How does one run Sundering Titan (like Decree of Annihilation) and not understand that they will be destroying people's lands?
This was banned more for the fact that games became all about stealing/copying/reanimating it leaving everyone with no lands to play.
Cause this one leads to the board being locked out, and this one can look innocent (Hey cool I play this in my protection deck with circle of protection and the like), then an Iona hits the table.
Well Isochron Scepter is very narrow while Panoptic Mirror is not. Also the mirror can also seem not so broken (When I first heard about EDH, the first thing I wanted to do was put Cruel Ultimatum under it, until I found out it was banned), but then a time stretch gets put under it and nobody else gets to play.
Even for the minority of players who don't know about/see these abuses, they will quickly either be told about it (many times by being told that they should be running -combo- :-/), or they will never encounter the combo, and they can enjoy playing with it casually.
In conclusion, cards can't accidently ruin games. Maybe one game, but then you group understands and can make a decision if they want the "ruined game" to be allowed.
You see the theme, it's not about them accidentally ruining every game, it's about the one game they ruin turning off an entire group from EDH because they stop everyone else from playing. These cards look innocent or do really cool stuff outside of being broken that people will play them, and eventually they break a game and people just quit EDH.
As soon as they figure out that Kiki Jiki or Painter's Servant is "broken", they now have the knowledge of it's power, therefore if they ever play it again, it is not accidentally broken.
I feel a natural state of <1% of games being accidentally broken is fair and expected from a game so complex.
Also I never said Time Vault was fair, if I were to make a banned list it would be on there. I'm simply arguing that a card can never be sustainably accidentally broken. Accidents will always happen, but then you can never make that mistake again. (And I'm sure people notice and remember when overpowered/broken things happen in their game) Therefore, cards "accidentally breaking" a game are not a factor worth banning over.
Cards "breaking" a game are worth banning over.
As I said, It is all about that one time possibly turning a group off of EDH.
I'm pretty sure this won't even be a debate. People who love combos are going to to straight to Arcum and just play Tezzeret the Seeker/Voltaic Key + this and take infinite turns, and people like me, who are only mildly amused by play combo, will do the exact same thing. The deck builds itself. So this is one that can stay banned.
While bend or break may not be what you are looking for Wake of Destruction could be. It can target basics and can punish ramp players while leaving you untouched. It can even make you the table hero if one person is playing say Azusa and is the only green player there.
I like him as more of a discard outlet for reanimator, but I don't think you have enough reanimation to use him for that. I you are looking for a way to draw cards that goes with your zombie sub-theme then Graveborn Muse is much better.
Like most cards , elder deserves a spot in a deck that best supports him and in turn only if he can help support the deck. As another poster said, he works well with primal surge. I particularly like him in Azusa and Edric. A 2/1 creature that nets me cards with edric out and can be traded in for lands and a cantrip is primo CA. This thread shouldn't be about if he is good or not but what decks is he good in?
Quoted for truth. Sure there are decks where he won't be as relevant anymore, but the fact that he can "Draw" you up to three cards, smooth out your land drops, and is a creature that can sac himself is relevant for a lot of decks. Being a creature is the most relevant because it makes it easy to recur (someone has already mentioned Karador), I'm brewing up a Jarad list and he will be taking a slot there.
The only way they could ensure a card is only usable in a specific format is to include appropriate rules text, like in the case of Command Tower and that artifact that rolls the planar die.
Pretty much this. Any cards printed in the commander precons are eligible for Legacy and Vintage and while they don't test cards for those formats, they won't print anything that will so obviously break those formats in half. So we don't get efficient 1 to 1 burn spells in Commander; Our burn deck are a completely different beast.
See, I was thinking something like an Esper pillowfort deck, where I could load up on effects that generally steer people away from attacking me as it is, and then add that as well.
You could also play stuff like Static Orb, and just target their tapped creatures. If you build the deck right he seems like he would be repeatable removal (and easy to recur when he gets killed).
I want to throw my vote in for Vela. My Vela deck takes the same route a lot of them take, with ninjas, evasive creatures, guys that bounce my guys and equipment. The thing I like about Vela is she embodies, enables and encourages these strategies while not being needed for the deck to work at all. Need to get damage through? Throw some equipment on invisible stalker and get there. Want to make your team evasive? Urborg+Filth in the yard. Then there is the whole bouncing my own dudes theme that works with out her and can create situations where my opponents don't know what is coming next, that works just fine without Vela's life loss.
It all comes together to make a very fun to play deck, that gets even better when Vela graces the field with her presence.
To people to say doubling season works with this PW, CONGRATULATIONS. You now know a combo that EVERYONE is raving about. How you got both of these things to stick without drawing hate, I really, really don't know.
Cause sometimes you sit at a table and no one is packing enchantment hate. The biggest reason people are going on about Doubling Season and her is
Although, as was pointed out elsewhere but not seemingly here - she is in colours seemingly most likely to be in a deck that already wants doubling season (aside from the 5-colour superfriends), which does make it a more valid point.
I don't like this trend in recent planeswalkers with their ults. Ults should win games. They shouldn't win games all by themselves, like TMS's, but they should give you an advantage that you win from. Like Venser, or Tamiyo. If your opponent can't deal with 3 1/1's, you don't need this girl to win.
Well there are ways to get the assassin's in. She is in the perfect colors for Urborg+Filth in the yard, meaning there needs to be three spot removal spells or a sweeper, if not well shuffle up for the next game.
Your right about JTMS, but I like this version of "Ult=Win" because I still have to do some work to make it happen, so it still feels balanced to me, while not ruining the game for others when it goes of (A la Karn).
If that's confirmed to be legitimate, then I'll be having to speak with him about that. I had a conversation with him about CA three weeks ago and he said he'd already put in for the shipment.
Confirmed from my LGS owner that he was only able to get 4.
To be honest, my LGS as of 2 weeks ago hadn't even been able to put his order in yet. So this seems suspect in conjunction with the other link provided.
Edit: Not directed at you, by the way, but at the store owner. I asked my LGS 2 weeks ago and both of them said they hadn't been able to order yet, so it seems sketchy to me that your LGS owner would say he already ordered more than what's being said is available.
I wonder if there is some priority list for when people can order, cause my LGS owner has already ordered his 4.
I would go ahead and get Liliana of the Veil now, since it seems like the most likely to go up in price and that put's you one step closer to finishing your Kalia deck.
Well the whole deck isn't fleshed out yet, I could possibly run all three (Jarad like to munch on lands). Reanimation wise, I was thinking about running Oversold Cemetery, so it would be recursion instead of reanimation (I wouldn't waste a reanimate on him unless I just needed a body) and the 10% of the time I don't have a sac outlet I will be glad to have him. Also 1 mana draw fours are good I hear (Skullclamp). If all I cared about was ramping, then yes the other two are better, but that isn't all I care about.
I never said he was a holy saint. I was pointing out why he is good in the situations he is good in. I mean if you really want to argue it like that wood elves isn't good because I can play Sol Ring. Of course we both know that is not true. Some decks just need different things.
For instance, I am going to be building a fairly run of the mil Jarad deck (or I assume run of the mill since he technically isn't out yet), Sacrificey, dredgey, reanimation stuff. Yavimaya Elder plays a good role in that because A) He has a death effect, so I get value out of him even going to the grave B) He sacs him self, so I can trigger Grave Pact and other cards that care about creatures dying and C)He is a creature, so recurring him for multiple sac will be fairly easy. All three of those points make him better for that deck that the 3cc Cultivate.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that he is the best green 3 drop, I know I'm not. I am just saying don't dismiss him so easily. See if he can fill a role in your deck.
Yeah but the five mana is broken up across a couple of turns, and the sac effect is instant speed which is relevant. He is a blocker and can wear buffs/equipment. As has been said, there are decks where he is a better choice that other things you could play in that slot.
This was banned more for the fact that games became all about stealing/copying/reanimating it leaving everyone with no lands to play.
Cause this one leads to the board being locked out, and this one can look innocent (Hey cool I play this in my protection deck with circle of protection and the like), then an Iona hits the table.
Well Isochron Scepter is very narrow while Panoptic Mirror is not. Also the mirror can also seem not so broken (When I first heard about EDH, the first thing I wanted to do was put Cruel Ultimatum under it, until I found out it was banned), but then a time stretch gets put under it and nobody else gets to play.
You see the theme, it's not about them accidentally ruining every game, it's about the one game they ruin turning off an entire group from EDH because they stop everyone else from playing. These cards look innocent or do really cool stuff outside of being broken that people will play them, and eventually they break a game and people just quit EDH.
As I said, It is all about that one time possibly turning a group off of EDH.
Quoted for truth. Sure there are decks where he won't be as relevant anymore, but the fact that he can "Draw" you up to three cards, smooth out your land drops, and is a creature that can sac himself is relevant for a lot of decks. Being a creature is the most relevant because it makes it easy to recur (someone has already mentioned Karador), I'm brewing up a Jarad list and he will be taking a slot there.
Pretty much this. Any cards printed in the commander precons are eligible for Legacy and Vintage and while they don't test cards for those formats, they won't print anything that will so obviously break those formats in half. So we don't get efficient 1 to 1 burn spells in Commander; Our burn deck are a completely different beast.
You could also play stuff like Static Orb, and just target their tapped creatures. If you build the deck right he seems like he would be repeatable removal (and easy to recur when he gets killed).
It all comes together to make a very fun to play deck, that gets even better when Vela graces the field with her presence.
Cause sometimes you sit at a table and no one is packing enchantment hate. The biggest reason people are going on about Doubling Season and her is
Well there are ways to get the assassin's in. She is in the perfect colors for Urborg+Filth in the yard, meaning there needs to be three spot removal spells or a sweeper, if not well shuffle up for the next game.
Your right about JTMS, but I like this version of "Ult=Win" because I still have to do some work to make it happen, so it still feels balanced to me, while not ruining the game for others when it goes of (A la Karn).
I think that's why they are giving us over 100 lol.
Confirmed from my LGS owner that he was only able to get 4.
I wonder if there is some priority list for when people can order, cause my LGS owner has already ordered his 4.