It's cool that it's repeatable, but I'd rather have it cost a lot of one resource than a little of a lot of resources. Like, no sacrifice or life payment, but discard three cards. That way, you could build the deck around amassing a lot of the one resource, to convert it into demons; rather than constantly having to juggle your life total, creatures in play, and cards in hand, just to make sure that you can afford to take a hit to all three.
I want this in Atraxa; that +1 makes more counters for Atraxa to play with, and the -3 is great when your commander has deathtouch, but triple green is hard to justify in a four color deck. Hard enough to justify that I'm not convinced that I should use this Vivien over Vivien of the Arkbow.
Glad to see you really didn’t comprehend what I was saying, but was more than willing to bless us with this wall of text. Thank you.
To draw 3 cards, you need to know what’s on top of your deck. Or, you play other cards that are just as reliant on something else to do the same. It’s a wash as far as I’m concerned. Large board? Peeps wrath. Big threat? Gets removed. Permanent, recursive card draw is good for decks that don’t have that.
I understood your point fine, I just think it's a terrible one. Yeah, nonblue draw all requires hoops to jump through. But not all hoops are created equal. Different things come more or less easily to different colors. Something that requires you to, for example, play a lot of small creatures is going to be much easier to use in white and green than in other colors. Having a full graveyard comes more naturally to black than to the rest of the color pie. And so on and so forth. The color that excels at topdeck manipulation is blue, with the next best color being a distant second. But if we talk about putting this in a blue deck, we have to compare it to the card draw already in blue, and if we talk about putting it in a nonblue deck, we have to look at the other ways those colors have of drawing cards, and compare how they line up with the colors' strengths.
I’ve found over the many years of playing this game that some cards do a better job than others, while being a “worse” card. Shocker, right?
For instance, I’ll play this in Glissa, the Traitor. A.)Because of synergy. B.) Because I reliably know what my top deck is. C.)I can actually cast the cards I draw after paying the activation cost. And D.) It’s a deck I can play with everybody, so power level is a non-issue.
Just because you've found one deck to use it in doesn't negate the fact that it's a bad card. I run Ovinomancer in my Mairsil deck, but Ovinomancer is still a terrible card by any normal metric.
I highly doubt they were embarrassed, but whatever.
"Embarrassed" was the exact word he used, so it doesn't really matter what you doubt.
Journeyers Kite is perfectly playable. It’s fixing that’s effectively card draw. My Flip-Chandra deck runs it to fuel Seismic Assault and Molten Vortex for additional reach.
It's fine in a few specific builds, but it's hardly a replacement for Cultivate like you seemed to be implying. To two don't even fill the same role at all, so it seems odd that you chose the Kite as your example instead of a mana rock or something.
I'm trying to figure out the perspective on the two swords in the back. They look like they're supposed to be behind her, but they're in front of her wings, and her wings are spread to the sides...
Cloudkin Seer: "I can see which way the wind is blowing."
Me, looking at trees: "I mean... Yeah, me too."
I think I get what the flavor text is trying to say, but damn if it doesn't sound stupid the first few times you read it. Surely there's a better way to phrase that?
Cloudkin Seer looks and sounds like a Lorwyn elemental to me. The name is reminiscent, the design is very similar, just with elemental air in place of elemental fire. Could this be a post-Eventide lorwyn character?
There's also a lavakin and a leafkin. I don't know what it means, but I'm definitely intrigued.
Besides this one card, point to another, better, source of draw in G? There aren’t many that are just as dependent on either having something on the board or other stipulations.
The stipulations that green card draw are all things green does well anyway. Things it certainly does more readily than setting up the top card of its deck. Talking about hoops you have to jump through for your card draw isn't going to shine Diviner's Chest in a flattering light. I mean, sure, things like Shamanic Revelation require creatures, but in a green deck, that's going to be a substantial chunk of your deck. Meanwhile, how much is going to enable Diviner's Chest? Sylvan Library, Mirri's Guile, Oracle of Mul Daya, Courser of Kruphix, Sensei's Divining Top, and Scroll Rack? Maybe a couple more? That's still less than 10% of your deck. You're gonna have to do this the hard way the majority of the time, and the hard way is less reliable than Sorcerer's Strongbox. Stuff like Soul's Majesty, Rishkar's Expertise, and Garruk, Primal Hunter need only a 3/3 to draw as many cards as Diviner's Chest, and there's easily twenty times more playable +3 power creatures in green than there are playable topdeck manipulators in green.
This also doesn’t cost life, like it likely would in B.
Same story as green. Black card draw costs life and/or creatures, but black decks like running life drain and/or reanimation, so those costs aren't such a big deal.
And we're just talking mono-colored, here. Multicolor (even excluding blue still) gives you even better card draw.
Echoing what Manite said, you’re comparing the effect of a generic cost artifact to the color that specializes in that effect. Is Journeyer’s Kite garbage because Cultivate exists?
Really? Journeyer's Kite is the example you're going with? I've only ever seen one person play that, and he was embarrassed to be running it.
Now, for the card itself, it’s not great. Sure, there are even better options in brown, but more expensive or larger costs.
And in exchange for the higher cost, the card draw is actually reliable. Most punisher cards and coin-flip card see no play because, surprise, the lower cost isn't worth the card being horribly inconsistent.
However, anything that scrys, surveils, etc. on a consistent basis makes this much, much better.
Anything that scrys, surveils, etc. on a consistent basis makes this better, sure, but then it's going from "Sorcerer's Strongbox" to "pretty decent", so that's really not all that impressive. If you need to play specific cards to make a card not suck horribly, the payoff better be something game-winning, not drawing a few cards.
If you can recur this, draw 3 for 5? In non-U decks...
If you've got a repeatable artifact recursion engine going, there are way better things you could be doing with it. Things that don't require you to also have topdeck manipulation to make work.
Um... someone tell me what Green commander deck DOESNT run oracle of mul daya/Sylvan Library/Mirri’s guile ect....
This is amazing for those decks built around being all permanent.
Why do people, in defence of bad cards, name a small handful of cards to combo it with? You know you have to draw both pieces in the same game, right? And have them out at the same time? You're talking about half a dozen or so cards in a 99 card deck. Good luck.
To bad. They exist, they're legal to play, and in this case, they're better options. Prodigal Sorcerer is a color pie break, but it's still a legitimate card to bring up for comparison if someone is talking about running Rod of Ruin in their mono-blue deck.
And even adhering strictly to the color pie, green has way better card draw that is way easier to pull of than this.
Topdeck manipulation? You mean like these cards:
Yeah, topdeck manipulation exists in boros, but it's not amazing or abundant. I mean, instants like Gods Willing that only scry 1 have to be cast on your turn to actually set up Diviner's Chest, since it can only be activated at sorcery speed. And what are you doing with Diviner's Chest while you wait to draw and use your scry cards? Missing a lot of guesses, probably.
Some of them are even Standard-legal.
Nobody's playing Diviner's Chest in Standard. Don't be ridiculous.
If you can't afford a Scroll Rack this can do a bit of work in a Daretti, Scrap Savant deck if you can at least afford a Sensei's Divining Top. Just a harmless colorless option for kitchen table decks in desperate need of card draw.
Divining Top isn't really what I'd call a kitchen table or budget option.
- If I remove this mask, would you die?
- It will be extremely painful.
I'm a 1/1 guy... for you.
Gideon: Why didn't you just kill me? Maraxus: Your punishment must be more severe.
Gideon: Torture?
Maraxus: Yes, but not of the body. Of the soul. I will build you and Ravnica up with hope and then destroy you. Hope is really the key to torture. Ravnica will build to a point of joy and then be wiped from the map.
Gideon: You're a madman.
Maraxus: When Ravnica is ashes, then you have my permission to die.
"You think aggro is your ally. You merely adopted the aggro. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the control until I was already a man; by then it was nothing to me but stifling! The red zone betrays you because it belongs to me."
*beatdown commences*
"I will show you where I have made my home, whilst preparing to bring chaos. Then I will break you."
*sets off explosives, revealing his lair to be beneath Jace's sanctum*
That sure is a lot of work just to get a single Concentrate. Especially since the color best at doing this easy-mode can just, y'know, run Concentrate instead.
Well maybe this artifact isn't made for blue but all the colors that can'tConcentrate. That's the thing with generic artifacts, they aren't supposed to be as good at any particular thing as the color that specializes at that thing.
Obviously, you're not running this if you're in blue. Or green, for that matter. And probably not black, either. So you're only using this if you're running mono-white, mono-red, or boros. But white and red are ass at topdeck manipulation. So you have to actually guess your top card the majority of the time. How many turns do you think it'll take to finally get it? I mean, it's definitely too slow and janky to see play in standard or modern, much less legacy or vintage, so you're probably playing this in commander, where the deckbuilding restrictions of the format make the guessing game way harder. You're paying +5 mana for an unreliable Ancestral Vision. Even in boros, there are tons or card draw I'd rather run.
That sure is a lot of work just to get a single Concentrate. Especially since the color best at doing this easy-mode can just, y'know, run Concentrate instead.
both are way more interesting and creative; scavenger may be ugly but it gets my attention right away with its weirdness and palette; and while WoC is low hanging fruit, at the very least it is menacing and unique, just lazily executed
I'm sorry for the off topic, but do you have a good word for even stuff like the horribly cartoonish Giant Strength from Legends or Dragon Mask? Seriously, when I was 8 I draw better honestly.
Speaking of Giant Strength, most of the things illustrated by Justin Hampton are pretty ugly.
Also, this thing costs a lot of mana, geez.
cue "Can I copy your homework?" meme
Just because you've found one deck to use it in doesn't negate the fact that it's a bad card. I run Ovinomancer in my Mairsil deck, but Ovinomancer is still a terrible card by any normal metric.
"Embarrassed" was the exact word he used, so it doesn't really matter what you doubt.
It's fine in a few specific builds, but it's hardly a replacement for Cultivate like you seemed to be implying. To two don't even fill the same role at all, so it seems odd that you chose the Kite as your example instead of a mana rock or something.
There's also a lavakin and a leafkin. I don't know what it means, but I'm definitely intrigued.
Same story as green. Black card draw costs life and/or creatures, but black decks like running life drain and/or reanimation, so those costs aren't such a big deal.
And we're just talking mono-colored, here. Multicolor (even excluding blue still) gives you even better card draw.
Really? Journeyer's Kite is the example you're going with? I've only ever seen one person play that, and he was embarrassed to be running it.
But sure, I'll play. Artifact card draw I'd run over this includes, but is not limited to: Staff of Nin, The Immortal Sun, Dreamstone Hedron, Hedron Archive, the Lockets, Illuminated Folio, Loreseeker's Stone, and, of course, Skullclamp.
And in exchange for the higher cost, the card draw is actually reliable. Most punisher cards and coin-flip card see no play because, surprise, the lower cost isn't worth the card being horribly inconsistent.
Anything that scrys, surveils, etc. on a consistent basis makes this better, sure, but then it's going from "Sorcerer's Strongbox" to "pretty decent", so that's really not all that impressive. If you need to play specific cards to make a card not suck horribly, the payoff better be something game-winning, not drawing a few cards.
If you've got a repeatable artifact recursion engine going, there are way better things you could be doing with it. Things that don't require you to also have topdeck manipulation to make work.
Why do people, in defence of bad cards, name a small handful of cards to combo it with? You know you have to draw both pieces in the same game, right? And have them out at the same time? You're talking about half a dozen or so cards in a 99 card deck. Good luck.
To bad. They exist, they're legal to play, and in this case, they're better options. Prodigal Sorcerer is a color pie break, but it's still a legitimate card to bring up for comparison if someone is talking about running Rod of Ruin in their mono-blue deck.
And even adhering strictly to the color pie, green has way better card draw that is way easier to pull of than this.
Yeah, topdeck manipulation exists in boros, but it's not amazing or abundant. I mean, instants like Gods Willing that only scry 1 have to be cast on your turn to actually set up Diviner's Chest, since it can only be activated at sorcery speed. And what are you doing with Diviner's Chest while you wait to draw and use your scry cards? Missing a lot of guesses, probably.
Nobody's playing Diviner's Chest in Standard. Don't be ridiculous.
Divining Top isn't really what I'd call a kitchen table or budget option.
*beatdown commences*
"I will show you where I have made my home, whilst preparing to bring chaos. Then I will break you."
*sets off explosives, revealing his lair to be beneath Jace's sanctum*