Sorry I ghosted D1. My holiday weekend ended up going a day longer than I thought it would and I didn't have a chance to get in here before the Day was over.
I did some catching up during the Night but didn't really put my all into it and haven't quite finished D1. With another question mark eliminated, I'll go back and do some reading with intensity.
Disagree. That quoted post with bolded emphasis feels like an aha moment, which is harder for scum to fake than town. Not impossible, but the conviction feels more likely town, too.
I actually reread the surrounding context and you're right. I can see how DoTA could come to the conclusion that Crossbell is scum for using Axel's meta as the basis for scumreading him, all the while Crossbell is dismissing Wisp's read on DV as "spewing wine into the thread". I'll read through more of DoTA's posts as I go on, but the bolded emphasis is a good catch and something I didn't fully comprehend as I was reading DoTA's post.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
It's not the content, it's the sharpness of the insight. Iirc, the feeling I often get from scum!KJ is sort of a meandering lost. He can't have sharp insights because he feels there's nothing to solve. He's honing in on something that he doesn't understand and applying focused scrutiny. I think that comes from town!KJ.
Okay. I don't think I've played with scum KJ in forever (I've wolfed against him a couple of times IIRC semi-recently) so I will continue to monitor how he is playing.
I like that you're willing to re-eval on these points.
Quote from Proph »
Quote from Cantripmancer »
I can see what you're saying a bit with 19 and 25, but I'm really not seeing the reactiveness of 8 or 29. I know you've recently re-evaluated Wisp townward, but given the conviction you were showing based on early game meta comparison, right now it just looks like you've decided that trying to get Wisp mis-eliminated isn't worth the effort and you're going to push elsewhere. (I saw your explanation, and I don't want to ask you to provide more detail because I generally agree with what you "found", but your change in position is a bit, as you say, jarring.)
The reason why I thought his post 8 was clumsy was because he didn't lead off with an RVS vote, and he did a LOT of this type of behavior when we wolfed together in Darling. (At first I thought this was indicative of wolf him, but thinking about it more critically I think it means he might be town, because I don't think he would do this type of outreach if he rolled scum again)
Fair.
Quote from Proph »
Post 29 still strikes me as a little weird. Not really sure what he is implying when he says "hmm, hard debate on which of you I would kill first". Does he mean in a hypothetical world where he randed scum, he would have trouble figuring out which one of me or DV to nightkill N1?
That's what I took it as, but maybe @Wisp could confirm?
Up until less than 12 hours ago, we were bifurcated on Wisp as well, and I think there's a good chance you're mafia, so are you really that surprised that our reads don't align? Looking forward to you sorting and responding to my questions.
I'm surprised because I think we have similar playstyles and ways of approaching the game. I'm also town, so I'm trying to figure out if you pushing me is you attempting to actively sort me or if you are trying to get me mislunched. (Gun to head, I think it's the former, but I know your scumgame is good - which is why I am putting you at arm's length)
Ok. I mean, even if you say we have similar playstyles (which I agree with), feelings about any given individual's posts are going to vary from player to player, so...yeah.
My scumread on DV boils down to a couple of things:
1) Out of all of the votes on the Crossbell wagon, his feels the most agenda-driven. With an exception, he's been pretty gung-ho about not liking Crossbell or I. I fear that he may be trying to chain mislunches (he's tunnelling Crossbell, then when he flips town he will shift to focus to me)
2) I feel like his posts have been kind of narrow? Like he doesn't show much insight into his thought process for his townreads, and he went from post 223 to 327 without really catching up.
3) PoE. Think if Crossbell is town, there's likely at least scum on his wagon. I like Grape atm, and DoTA may be town. We'll see on Axel after he completes his catchup.
I have to say that I do like this post from DV though. It's self meta, but it reads as somewhat genuine.
Quote from DV »
This is a severe misunderstanding of my scum rage game play. Typically as scum I argue about pendantic ***** to appear playing the game and then get annoyed by players ignoring my correct statements.
Its likely hard for players to seperate that from my town game play, because my town play focused on specific things but for me it was always with a purpose. Maybe not a purpose that other players understood, but a purpose none the less. Largely my town reads/gameplay in the last 5(? more maybe) years hyper evolved into me taking an active role to get players to respond to me to see these specific things/meta reads and that turned into me largely bullying people/becoming more toxic as I took the game too seriously.
My scum games I'd just get mad because people would say that something I did was a scum tell or something really dumb and then I'd just use that as a cover for my aimlessness which is in my opinion always been my biggest scum tell. Really though what I'm trying to get across is that it wasn't fake, it was always anger misplaced as it may have been.
This is feeling more like town!Proph.
I have no more responses, but I do have more thoughts, but I'm also out of time. So more when I can.
Dangit; I promised myself I wouldn't fall behind this time!
I've read up to current, have many responses I want to make, but they'll have to wait until morning. And I *will* post in the morning.
I know we're no longer to indicate deadline preference in-thread, but if the deadline is extended, a PSA: my weekend, especially being a holiday one, is going to be very busy. I *may* have opportunity for in-depth posting, but I may only be able to skim and post the most pertinent. My daytimes (I'm MST) will likely be spent nowhere near an internet signal. So...my apologies in advance.
A few quick points:
-- Dangit. I thought Cross was Bur or--with a hopeful heart--an outside possibility of Tom. Ah well.
-- With Osie behind the portrait, I'm still pretty much at a townlean, although not as strong. I thought Axel's points against Osie were pretty insightful, and even if I don't necessarily agree with all of them, Axel is certainly trending upward for me.
-- I'm also liking DV a bit more.
-- Still have Proph as most likely scum, but I *have* liked some of his responses. I'll go into more detail when I'm not exhausted.
-- Alas, poor OsieBell. Adieu.
-- Greetings G_J!
That is...a weird way to conclude your statement. Your suspicion of Cross is apparent, so I get that you think they're either W/W or T/W, but why say it this way instead of just pondering whether Axel is a buddy or not? That doesn't seem to jive with your "are they trying to figure each other out" possibility, either, as that would only happen with T/T.
If I'm wrong about Cross being scum then I have to reevaluate my reads and that includes Cross's scum read of Axel.
I feel like my question (in 265) was essentially what KJ asked in 267. Why did you give me this dismissive response while going into detail when responding to KJ?
@Cantripmancer - Because we're so diametrically opposed on our reads of the slot, can you talk to me in more detail about what you don't like about Proph? I await a glorious wall of evaluation.
Sure, but it'll have to wait until tonight. Because I'm out of time.
(As a random aside: One of my bigger pet peeves I've seen floating around recently is when people say "lunch me right now in f7/f5/whatever so I don't get mislunched in f3". This is such a stupid stance to take because if you know you're town, and there is one wolf remaining, then advocating for your own mislunch just so that you don't bear responsibility in f3 is basically you just throwing the game away. You should just work on lunching literally any other person, because that's someone's alignment you don't know, and that's a chance that you can end the game right there. If you DO end up in f3 or whatever, the game isn't lost. You might have to give it your all and/or try your hardest, but the game isn't over just because you got to f3.)
FWIW, I've recently made comments like this, and (for me) it's not "oh, the game is over; I hate losing!!!" going into the f3. It's that I feel a lot of pressure and responsibility to do a good job, and I seem to inevitably choke.
Note to self: had 278, 280, 281, 299 in the multi-quote to respond to when I ran out of time.
Idk if I want to sheep this or if I stick with trying to get Axelrod to impress me... I think I just sheep this though since DoTA hasn't gotten better.
How could DoTA have gotten better when he hadn't posted?
I don't like DoTA's vote on Crossbell; it feels opportunistic to me. I am fine with his questioning on Crossbell, but the vote feels.. premature? Like he's looking for someone to incriminate. Would still like to see him zoom out/focus on the game at large.
Disagree. That quoted post with bolded emphasis feels like an aha moment, which is harder for scum to fake than town. Not impossible, but the conviction feels more likely town, too.
Ehh, it's pretty fragile though.
I don't know that it is, though. Feels very much like town pulling a thread (from his 137) and then seeing something significant in the details of your response and jumping on it. Although...he was putting you to L-2 and then peaced out for 24 hours, so I guess it could have been an attempt to start an elimination movement without looking like he was involved. Eh...I just feel like I want more from DoTA for now.
@Cantripmancer Can you, me, and Prophylaxis just all jump into each others' living rooms towncore and stay there? It would make solving this game a hell of a lot easier. Wisp may be able to come too if he is willing to leave the emotional baggage at the door lmao.
Man, that sounds cozy. But I'm far from satisfied with Proph's responses, so...my magic 8-ball says "prognosis is grim". I'm down with Wisp, though.
There is some engagement around page 4/5 between Axel and Crossbell but are they trying to figure each other out or just posting for the sake of having spoken to one another. I don't know if this makes them W/W or T/W but I have a gut feeling that it's not T/T.
That is...a weird way to conclude your statement. Your suspicion of Cross is apparent, so I get that you think they're either W/W or T/W, but why say it this way instead of just pondering whether Axel is a buddy or not? That doesn't seem to jive with your "are they trying to figure each other out" possibility, either, as that would only happen with T/T.
Pretty interested as to how Cantrip and I have.. bifurcating reads outside of the ones on Wisp/Crossbell, but I'll sort that out in X hours or so.
Up until less than 12 hours ago, we were bifurcated on Wisp as well, and I think there's a good chance you're mafia, so are you really that surprised that our reads don't align? Looking forward to you sorting and responding to my questions.
Conclusion Dota, KJ, Grape and Cantrip are a better place to vote out right now. Not sure where to point though.
If you vote DoTA, I'll stop poking the monkey bear that is Axelrod and I'll vote DoTA with you.
Vote Axelrod
I want to +town DV for this. If this is scum!DV being offered a DoTa wagon and then joining Cross on Axel instead, that's some deep pocketing. Maybe less so if both Axel and DoTa flip town, but generally...yeah, I think this is more likely to come from town.
I've read past 200, but I'm falling asleep, so more posts in the morning. Good night.
Why does you hating reading DV automatically equivocate to a scumlean? Is it because he's been so vocal in pushing for Crossbell, one of your ostensibly stronger townreads?
Hey man when you gotta look for an excuse to scum read me this is how you do it.
Killjoy: Pretty light in content, but that last post (150) is pretty solidly town paranoid KJ. Townlean.
Talk to me about why you think 150 is more likely to come from town paranoid killjoy? I'm looking at post 150 and while I do think it's a good callout (because DV jumping straight into assuming inside info on Crossbell's declaration of town on me is a weird assumption given the open setup) I don't see how it sharply indicates town killjoy.
It's not the content, it's the sharpness of the insight. Iirc, the feeling I often get from scum!KJ is sort of a meandering lost. He can't have sharp insights because he feels there's nothing to solve. He's honing in on something that he doesn't understand and applying focused scrutiny. I think that comes from town!KJ.
Quote from Proph »
Quote from Cantripmaner »
DV: I hate reading DV. Scumlean.
Why does you hating reading DV automatically equivocate to a scumlean? Is it because he's been so vocal in pushing for Crossbell, one of your ostensibly stronger townreads?
Nah, it was simply for the reaction. (I know he reacted in a later post; more when I get there.)
Quote from Proph »
Quote from Cantripmancer »
Proph: The energy and engagement give me generally good vibes, but the progression from 22, where he says he will easily be able to read Wisp, to 30, where he votes Wisp for "clumsy" posts feels weird, especially with Proph saying it's for Wisp's "early" posts.
@Proph: Can you show me Wisp being "clumsy", as you note in 30? In their "early" posts only, please.
I think post 8, post 19, post 25, and some extent post 29 are indicative of him being reactive/clumsy. I'm used to town Wisp being more proactive and not being afraid to voice out his opinions or to vote early. I would also feel like he would be more critical or dogged in his pursuit of me if he was town. Right now, it feels like he's treating me with kid gloves.
I can see what you're saying a bit with 19 and 25, but I'm really not seeing the reactiveness of 8 or 29. I know you've recently re-evaluated Wisp townward, but given the conviction you were showing based on early game meta comparison, right now it just looks like you've decided that trying to get Wisp mis-eliminated isn't worth the effort and you're going to push elsewhere. (I saw your explanation, and I don't want to ask you to provide more detail because I generally agree with what you "found", but your change in position is a bit, as you say, jarring.)
Quote from Cantripmancer »
You seem to be listing Wisp's annoyance with you and Cross as a point against them, but then you say it's understandable?
At the time I made that post, I thought it was understandable for him to be annoyed at being pressured by Crossbell and I as either alignment. I'd be annoyed if I was being hounded by two clones of mine, for example.[/quote]Ok, that makes sense.
I don't like DoTA's vote on Crossbell; it feels opportunistic to me. I am fine with his questioning on Crossbell, but the vote feels.. premature? Like he's looking for someone to incriminate. Would still like to see him zoom out/focus on the game at large.
Disagree. That quoted post with bolded emphasis feels like an aha moment, which is harder for scum to fake than town. Not impossible, but the conviction feels more likely town, too.
WTH. I had eight posts quoted via multiquote, clicked Reply, nothing. Went to another page and they're gone. So I'm just going to reply as I REREAD things and y'all can suffer my multiposting.
@Cantrip I don't get your town read on crossbell at all. You only added two details beyond engaged and solvey=town. The first was the Proph roleplay was a factor in other people (DV and myself notably) scum reading the wall post and you having a guess to the identity and projecting that to the town meta. I have a hard time seeing how that equals a top town read.
The meta read is actually playing a lot stronger here than I think I realized. Each subsequent post makes me feel like it's more likely who I think it is, and I'm freaking loving it. (Spoiler: I'm probably completely wrong, because I'm almost always wrong on these things, but something something blind squirrel...) I'm also happy with the volume of output. Again, not necessarily town on its own, but in combination with everything, feels indicative to me. The Axel read still doesn't meld with me (nor the DoTa one, tbf), but the meta dive at least lets me see where Cross is coming from.
I tried to play the game last night, but MTGS kept throwing error messages, so I gave up and went to bed.
Caught up, ready to rock, let's get this bread.
Crossbell: I know high interaction doesn't automatically equate to town, but I always lean that way. Some general game solving vibes, too. I don't really get the suspicion on Axel. 98 might be a little try-hard, but, as has been noted, the Proph roleplay may be a factor there. Maybe I've got them higher than I ought just because they correctly noted that my absence was because of the weekend. If I'm right in my suspicions of who they are, though, they're solidly in their town meta. Certainly don't see why they're L-2. Town.
@Cross: Can you point to differences in other games from Axel? I'm just getting standard Axel vibes so far.
Killjoy: Pretty light in content, but that last post (150) is pretty solidly town paranoid KJ. Townlean.
DoTArchon: Feels like he wants to solve, especially with his insight into KJ's mindset. Townlean.
Wisp: I think a telling point here is the carelessness. Scum Wisp likes to pretend that they're careless, but they rarely actually post things that garner serious attention beyond "Why is Wisp the way Wisp be?" I'm not getting faked carelessness here (other than the drunkposting, but drunkposting always feels fake to me.) Mild townlean.
Axel: Not much here, but certainly not getting the "awkward" vibes that Cross is concerned about. Still null.
Grape: Some mindmeld on the Easy Breezy Beautiful Whisper read, and I like the long version of 73, but the TLDR feels waffly. Of course, it's coming from the Hedgelord, so I'll take it with a grain of salt and wait and see. Null.
DV: I hate reading DV. Scumlean.
Proph: The energy and engagement give me generally good vibes, but the progression from 22, where he says he will easily be able to read Wisp, to 30, where he votes Wisp for "clumsy" posts feels weird, especially with Proph saying it's for Wisp's "early" posts.
@Proph: Can you show me Wisp being "clumsy", as you note in 30? In their "early" posts only, please.
Do you think Wisp right now is engaged and relaxed? I think his posting has been quite clumsy and.. unconfident, for lack of a better term. He seems to be annoyed with both how I and Crossbell are treating him, which is understandable.
You seem to be listing Wisp's annoyance with you and Cross as a point against them, but then you say it's understandable?
Recycle was the card that started me down the dark path to becoming the Cantripmancer. Such a powerhouse, especially with Spellbook and others of its ilk. And Phil Foglio's art is hilarious.
I did some catching up during the Night but didn't really put my all into it and haven't quite finished D1. With another question mark eliminated, I'll go back and do some reading with intensity.
Fair.
That's what I took it as, but maybe @Wisp could confirm?
Ok. I mean, even if you say we have similar playstyles (which I agree with), feelings about any given individual's posts are going to vary from player to player, so...yeah.
Why do you say this?
This is feeling more like town!Proph.
I have no more responses, but I do have more thoughts, but I'm also out of time. So more when I can.
I've read up to current, have many responses I want to make, but they'll have to wait until morning. And I *will* post in the morning.
I know we're no longer to indicate deadline preference in-thread, but if the deadline is extended, a PSA: my weekend, especially being a holiday one, is going to be very busy. I *may* have opportunity for in-depth posting, but I may only be able to skim and post the most pertinent. My daytimes (I'm MST) will likely be spent nowhere near an internet signal. So...my apologies in advance.
A few quick points:
-- Dangit. I thought Cross was Bur or--with a hopeful heart--an outside possibility of Tom. Ah well.
-- With Osie behind the portrait, I'm still pretty much at a townlean, although not as strong. I thought Axel's points against Osie were pretty insightful, and even if I don't necessarily agree with all of them, Axel is certainly trending upward for me.
-- I'm also liking DV a bit more.
-- Still have Proph as most likely scum, but I *have* liked some of his responses. I'll go into more detail when I'm not exhausted.
-- Alas, poor OsieBell. Adieu.
-- Greetings G_J!
I feel like my question (in 265) was essentially what KJ asked in 267. Why did you give me this dismissive response while going into detail when responding to KJ?
Sure, but it'll have to wait until tonight. Because I'm out of time.
FWIW, I've recently made comments like this, and (for me) it's not "oh, the game is over; I hate losing!!!" going into the f3. It's that I feel a lot of pressure and responsibility to do a good job, and I seem to inevitably choke.
Note to self: had 278, 280, 281, 299 in the multi-quote to respond to when I ran out of time.
How could DoTA have gotten better when he hadn't posted?
I don't know that it is, though. Feels very much like town pulling a thread (from his 137) and then seeing something significant in the details of your response and jumping on it. Although...he was putting you to L-2 and then peaced out for 24 hours, so I guess it could have been an attempt to start an elimination movement without looking like he was involved. Eh...I just feel like I want more from DoTA for now.
Man, that sounds cozy. But I'm far from satisfied with Proph's responses, so...my magic 8-ball says "prognosis is grim". I'm down with Wisp, though.
That is...a weird way to conclude your statement. Your suspicion of Cross is apparent, so I get that you think they're either W/W or T/W, but why say it this way instead of just pondering whether Axel is a buddy or not? That doesn't seem to jive with your "are they trying to figure each other out" possibility, either, as that would only happen with T/T.
Up until less than 12 hours ago, we were bifurcated on Wisp as well, and I think there's a good chance you're mafia, so are you really that surprised that our reads don't align? Looking forward to you sorting and responding to my questions.
I've read past 200, but I'm falling asleep, so more posts in the morning. Good night.
Nah, it was simply for the reaction. (I know he reacted in a later post; more when I get there.)
I can see what you're saying a bit with 19 and 25, but I'm really not seeing the reactiveness of 8 or 29. I know you've recently re-evaluated Wisp townward, but given the conviction you were showing based on early game meta comparison, right now it just looks like you've decided that trying to get Wisp mis-eliminated isn't worth the effort and you're going to push elsewhere. (I saw your explanation, and I don't want to ask you to provide more detail because I generally agree with what you "found", but your change in position is a bit, as you say, jarring.)
At the time I made that post, I thought it was understandable for him to be annoyed at being pressured by Crossbell and I as either alignment. I'd be annoyed if I was being hounded by two clones of mine, for example.[/quote]Ok, that makes sense.
The meta read is actually playing a lot stronger here than I think I realized. Each subsequent post makes me feel like it's more likely who I think it is, and I'm freaking loving it. (Spoiler: I'm probably completely wrong, because I'm almost always wrong on these things, but something something blind squirrel...) I'm also happy with the volume of output. Again, not necessarily town on its own, but in combination with everything, feels indicative to me. The Axel read still doesn't meld with me (nor the DoTa one, tbf), but the meta dive at least lets me see where Cross is coming from.
Caught up, ready to rock, let's get this bread.
Crossbell: I know high interaction doesn't automatically equate to town, but I always lean that way. Some general game solving vibes, too. I don't really get the suspicion on Axel. 98 might be a little try-hard, but, as has been noted, the Proph roleplay may be a factor there. Maybe I've got them higher than I ought just because they correctly noted that my absence was because of the weekend.
@Cross: Can you point to differences in other games from Axel? I'm just getting standard Axel vibes so far.
Killjoy: Pretty light in content, but that last post (150) is pretty solidly town paranoid KJ. Townlean.
DoTArchon: Feels like he wants to solve, especially with his insight into KJ's mindset. Townlean.
Wisp: I think a telling point here is the carelessness. Scum Wisp likes to pretend that they're careless, but they rarely actually post things that garner serious attention beyond "Why is Wisp the way Wisp be?" I'm not getting faked carelessness here (other than the drunkposting, but drunkposting always feels fake to me.) Mild townlean.
Axel: Not much here, but certainly not getting the "awkward" vibes that Cross is concerned about. Still null.
Grape: Some mindmeld on the Easy Breezy Beautiful Whisper read, and I like the long version of 73, but the TLDR feels waffly. Of course, it's coming from the Hedgelord, so I'll take it with a grain of salt and wait and see. Null.
DV: I hate reading DV. Scumlean.
Proph: The energy and engagement give me generally good vibes, but the progression from 22, where he says he will easily be able to read Wisp, to 30, where he votes Wisp for "clumsy" posts feels weird, especially with Proph saying it's for Wisp's "early" posts.
@Proph: Can you show me Wisp being "clumsy", as you note in 30? In their "early" posts only, please.
Also, I don't understand this:
You seem to be listing Wisp's annoyance with you and Cross as a point against them, but then you say it's understandable?
Vote: Prophylaxis
"Let's do the Time Walk again!"
(Unless Killjoy wants that one, in which case...)
"Benny and the (Mox) Jets"
(Whichever one KJ doesn't yoink.)