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  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Quote from shadowlancerx »
    We could lynch Osie, and have KJ target Cantrip and Cantrip Target Tom. Thinking...
    Popping in for a moment to say that I think any plan that tries to coordinate night actions, especially concerning my ability, is a bad one, for multiple reasons, but if we don't lunch KJ, I support him using his one-shot on me toNight (and having that be public info so that no one wastes other abilities on me).

    I feel like I'm holding the thread hostage a little. I don't have the posts marked to back this up, but it felt to me like Az was trying to push KJ without committing while simultaneously going on record as not really wanting to lunch him. I also feel like he gave one-shot "reads" on both Grape and KJ, then stuck them both near the top of his T/S list, and I don't think he'd do that with TWO buddies. I know there was more, but that's a lot of my (probably really bad) reasons for thinking KJ isn't scum.

    I don't quite know what to make of this 3-way Tom/KJ/Osie wagon situation. Osie feels like he's flopping between the other two wagons, but everyone else feels super content to just park their votes, which is...weird.

    From my perspective, lunching Tom has a good chance of hitting scum, and even if he flips town, it'll confirm the presence of a redirect ability that's almost certainly from scum.

    I don't know, though. I really need to take the time to play the game, and I suddenly just don't have time. This weekend is going to be PACKED, and next week probably isn't going to be much better. So I'll do what I can when I can, and my apologies for any frustrations.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    ptap

    Work has suddenly ramped up. I should have an opportunity tonight or tomorrow morning. Sorry.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Now this I gotta see....

    Wink

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    I have a couple of reasons that I don't just want to toss out there, Chris. I need to do some diving to see if those are really supported the way I think they are. I apologize for being a slacker and not doing it already.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Oh never mind, mine + Osie's puts him at 4 votes.

    Vote Tom
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Unvote to give Tom a chance to respond.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Quote from osieorb18 »
    Quote from osieorb18 »
    I didn't think it was a likely world; Wisp is townier than tom.
    Sorry, townier than "tom's fake persona". Gotta keep tom away from responsibility for his own play.
    I feel like you're being bitterer than you need to be here. I've never felt like Tom's flavorplay/gimmicking has made his actual play fake, nor do I think he doesn't take responsibility for his play.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    I'm caught up; I'll try to keep this relatively short.

    First off, I'm not sure that KJ's ascetic claim moves the needle much for me. I have a few reasons to think he's town (which, I swear, I'll get to, soon), and him not claiming his self-asceticism, at least, D1 isn't great. But it being another interference role when I know there's a scum delayer and I think there's a scum redirector (AND Az claimed a roleblock+rolecop as part of his JoaT AND Osie claimed one of his modes to be roleblocker) makes me wonder if Proph just put a bunch of fizzle effects in the game.

    I PROMISE I'll get to why I think KJ's town soon. In the meantime, the rest of my catch-up:
    Quote from osieorb18 »
    There's 6 relatively universal townreads. Unless one of those 6 is scum, the game is solved. Even if I'm mislynched, the game is still probably solved within those other 4, though it's possible that there's a deepwolf...

    Shadow - Probably town
    Vaimes - Probably town
    vezok - Probably town
    Axel - Ehh, probably town
    KCC - Ehh, probably town
    Wisp - Ehh, probably town

    Cantrip, Killjoy, Sir Chris, osieorb18, tomsloger
    Why do you feel like Shadow, KCC, and Wisp are "relatively universal townreads"? Pretty sure there are multiple people at least questioning their alignment, even if they're not outright scumreading them.
    Quote from osieorb18 »
    Quote from Lastwhisper »
    Scummiest of revealed two killing roles means jack *****

    Damning from a flavor perspective? What do you mean?
    If there's 2 KP on town this game, then this game is firmly town-sided in design, unless scum roles are WTFOMGBBQ bonkers. I firmly don't believe that to be the case, based on what we've seen.

    As for damning from a flavor perspective, it is quite possible that the flavour reflects alignment, in which case Infect explicitly as a false claim makes a lot of sense. Even if flavour does not reflect alignment, if someone can determine abilities from flavour (which is certainly possible), then it's possible that his actual flavour makes it clear that he would not be a 1-shot Day-vig. For example, if he was Jund instead of Infect, he could be a Scum Strongman with a 1-shot Dayvig.
    As someone who's looked at every single claim so far to see if there are flavor elements that feel off and might be indicative of a fake deck claim, I feel like I can say pretty strongly that it wouldn't be hard to make practically any claim fit in some way into practically any deck. I mean...fakeclaiming "Jund, I'm a Doctor" probably wouldn't go over very well, but every modern deck I've looked at has a significant killing/Vig card, a significant interference/Roleblock/Protective card, a significant selective discard/Info card, etc.

    When I got my result from Proph, I had a little ecstatic celebratory jig response back to Proph basically in happy disbelief that Tom lied about his deck name, because I literally could not fathom why anyone would lie about their deck name. (Actually, when I got my role initially I figured the scum were all decks that weren't really Modern decks, based on the sample role in the OP, but then I realized the sample role PM was a town role, so neither flavor-gaming that decks with banned cards were scum would work, nor would flavor-gaming that decks with OP combos would work.)

    That said, that Az *did* adjust his claim, even if it wouldn't have changed my results had I targeted him, is a thing. I even specifically asked him, so...I'm still a little at a loss. I guess I would expect scum!Tom to admit to lying and give some reason (paranoia, mod-indication that it was a bad idea to give out his real deck, for a Tom!lark) to have done so. This feels so similar to his response in GoT....hmmm. Hmm. Actually, it doesn't. When I pranked Town!Tom in GoT, he immediately went into solvey overdrive, considering all the different possibilities, throwing out thoughts left and right. Here he just said "I didnt [lie] and I am [Infect]". And then in the next post voted KJ and said Osie TWTBAW. Now that I compare the two, ESPECIALLY since it had to be running through his mind that I might be trolling for reactions (or even pranking him) again, I'm really surprised that he didn't either start solving or at least give me an eye roll.

    Tom, why such a difference from GoT?
    Quote from osieorb18 »
    @Wisp: I'm not even asking you to prove a negative. For most of the game, you have said that you are not lynching tom. That means that you are either:

    A) Town and confident that he is town, but cannot provide a concrete reason.
    or
    B) His scum-buddy.

    Given that it appears to be the former, either there is evidence that he is in the form of townie posts and actions, or you are just wrong and he is actually scum, who you are defending.
    This may be moot with what I detail above on Tom, but why are you omitting the possibility that Wisp is scum confident that Tom is town because he knows Tom is town?
    Quote from shadowlancerx »
    @Cantrip: out of curiosity, would your ability be prevented by ascetic, since its “a very convoluted ability”?
    For reasons that should be obvious, I'm not answering this yet.

    Vote Tom
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Quote from osieorb18 »
    Quote from Axelrod »
    And I'm still wary of Proph allowing someone to get re-directed and NOT being told they were re-directed - although in Cantrip's specific case, I can sort of understand how it could have happened.
    This seems VERY unlikely to me, yeah.
    This is why I feel it's likely that it's a redirect ability.

    I feel like the chance of someone unclaimed now faking their deck name is pretty much nonexistent, anyway, so to clarify, here's a paraphrase of last night's action submission and response as such (approved by Proph):

    Me: Target Tom with [foo] and guess Infect.
    Proph: You have guessed wrong, so no action for you!

    Quote from KittyCupCake »
    Quote from vezokpiraka »
    Neither grape nor az even tried to fake claim the deck.

    Az kinda did though (claimed plain Tron vs flipped monogreen tron). As for grape, scum might have a very limited number of safe claims and didn't want to waste one on someone who was likely getting lynched.
    I checked with Proph on this one and he said the two are synonymous, which wasn't a very satisfactory answer, but he confirmed if I had guessed either deck name for Az I would have guessed "right". So it's not actually a fake claim.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Quote from Axelrod »
    Further thought suggests to me that there's no need for a mass claim at the very least until we have mis-lynched. And we should try to allow Vez to be on whatever lynch we decide in case we are wrong. This is because if we are not mis-lynching then we are winning, and if we do mis-lynch there are abilities that will trigger that would be better for us if the scum don't know about/have less information for.

    Vez would get...something. Chris would get a track. Given that Chris is still in no way clear to me, I would prefer that he have to claim his track results without knowing everyone else's roles.

    There's one more reason, and that is the possibility that scum have some way to mess with Decks, or abilities that care about what Deck a player is. Mass-Claiming unlocks those abilities. Yes, there might also be Town with similar abilities, so it's possible that could be a wash in terms of positive/negative effects, but seems like there's no need to get too risky here.

    That is my current 2 cents.
    You can stop; you're already confirmed town in my book. Wink

    (I agree with this post in its entirety.)
    Quote from Axelrod »
    The possibility of roles that care about decks occurred to me when Az lied about what "Tron" deck he was, and why would he do that? Seems like he might have been afraid of a Town ability that cared what Deck he was, and one logical reason he might have cared about that would be if the scum had such an ability. Could have been one of his one abilities, of course.

    This leads me down another rabbit-hole of, could the scum have false-claim Decks? And does this put Tom back on the table for today. There is zero evidence of a re-director in this game except if you believe Tom when he says he's Infect. And I'm still wary of Proph allowing someone to get re-directed and NOT being told they were re-directed - although in Cantrip's specific case, I can sort of understand how it could have happened.
    I think this is good insight, as well, but I'm not sure that Tom's reaction to my accusation comes from scum? I guess it could if he was completely confident in me not being able to prove anything/convince others, but...I'm more inclined to think he really is Infect and there's a redirect somewhere. And if scum want to expend their efforts keeping me fruitless, that opens things up for the rest of you to use your abilities. It's all good.

    I'm still looking through some interactions, but I likely will not be able to contribute very much from now until Monday, so...

    V/LA until Monday

    I'll try to keep up on reading, though, and contribute as I can.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Quote from shadowlancerx »
    @Cantrip: I have zero desire to let Last claim that late.
    I mean...given that Osie, Tom, and Chris have all (theoretically) fullclaimed, my list only puts KCC ahead of Wisp? How is that "that late"?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Quote from shadowlancerx »
    We should specifically order it though (people who have already claimed are on here solely to verify they have nothing else):

    Last
    KJ
    Osie
    Sir Chris
    Tom
    Cantrip
    KCC
    Vaimes
    Axel
    {shadow} (I’m willing to go marginally sooner)
    Where would you put Vez?

    I said you should not count me in the "claimed" category, and I meant it. My claim is so complex it'll make your head spin.

    IF we massclaim, which...I could see potentially being wrecking for scum, but not necessarily so, I'd feel much more comfortable with something like:

    Osie
    Tom
    Sir Chris
    KCC
    Last
    KJ
    Shadow
    Vez
    Vaimes
    Axel

    You could slot me potentially anywhere, but I think my fullclaim has a good chance to trip up scum, so I'd prefer being nearer the bottom of the list than the top. Certainly after Last and KJ.
    Quote from Vaimes »
    Otherwise I’m gonna assume scum tried to save tom, because he’s scum.
    The only alternative hypothesis I can think of here would be if they were trying to get me to vig someone else, since Tom is (claimed) now vanilla.

    Osie, Do you agree with Fuwa slow-rolling the doctor portion of your claim? Why/not?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Osie, could you clarify your neighbor option for me? You said it was a temp Day neighborization? How does that work?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Forgot that I had this quoted in another tab.

    Vaimes, what was the second question below intended to accomplish?
    Quote from Vaimes »
    Quote from Grapefruit21 »
    I'm gone for the next 3 hours but will be back after that. So more wolfy pop ins for you all to confirmation bias off.
    Why did you target beeboy?

    How did you feel after Megiddo claimed he was delayed?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Quote from Sir Chris »
    Yes. So in my head, not as a player in this game but as someone who constructs games, it seems really weird to me to have a scum day vig and a town night vig because of the dynamics of vigs. Vigs are fairly often in a situation of "resolves itself" because if a vig fake claims the real vig will blow its brains out. So for scum day vig to do its job to either kill a buddy (but maybe still get shot by night vig who thinks it is a bus) or to kill town (and night vig shooting it for killing town + counter claiming killing power) doesn't seem like rewarding game design for scum. It's almost a trap for scum to ever claim the day vig with the meta as it is.
    Ok, thanks for that clarification. How do you think that affects the likelihood that both vig roles are town?

    Also, in my last post I said we were at 10-2. We're at 9-2. But still, I believe, 7 unclaimed, so...nah, I don't think a mass claim is a good idea yet.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Night 3: Choke
    Those are good points on Osie. :/

    I want to highlight this sequence of events, because either Axel is town or he's the ballsiest, riskiest, craziest scum I've ever seen.

    2268: Grape claims delayer + coroner.
    2272 Wisp says being the delayer looks bad for Grape.
    2273 Vaimes asks questions about Grape's choices.
    2274 Proph posts the vote count with this wagon (7 to lunch): shadowlancerx, tomsloger, Megiddo, osieorb18, vezokpiraka, Cantripmancer
    2275 KCC says coroner seems provable and useless for scum.
    2276 I /barn KCC and unvote.
    2277 Grape answers some questions.
    2278 Chris votes Grape (probably +town, especially since he appeared to think he was hammering, but could also come from scum trying to quash spew/discussion)
    2279 Proph posts the "final" votecount with me still on it.
    2284 Proph posts the corrected votecount with Chris on, me off.
    2285 Axel asks for 30 minutes to look at things.
    2287 Wisp says Grape's choice to target Beeboy makes sense, but that the coroner part is NAI.
    2290 Tom says he's still good with lunching Grape.
    2291 Wisp points out that Megiddo is never wolf with Grape.
    2292 Axel highlights all the discrepancies in Grape's choices. Lots of detail, no punches pulled, ends the post with great skepticism toward Grape, but no vote.
    2293 Axel highlights Grape->Beeboy mentions, puts another nail in Grape's coffin. Still no vote.
    2294 Axel says he has to leave and asks Grape a clarification question on the coroner ability.


    It's the lack of vote here that points to town!Axel, imo. He wades in and dismantles Grape piece by piece. By the time I finished reading Axel's posts, there was very little doubt in my mind that Grape was scum. Scum!Axel could bus a buddy this thoroughly, I think, but in no worlds does he NOT vote, both for the hammer cred after a natural-feeling attack, and to stop the Day's discussion.

    Just a few posts later Osie unvotes, asking if coroner is confirmable. Shortly after this, Osie spearheads the counterwagon on Tom with a post that includes "I want to lynch Tom toDay, and I don't think that I'm the only one here who does." Grape joins the Tom wagon, and there's a page of Chris being indignant and Osie stumping for Tom's demise. Chris moves from Grape to KJ, KCC moves to Tom, Vaimes moves to Tom. 2369 Vez says (paraphrased) "lunch Grape because I'm right". 2370 Axel comes back with questions for Grape, Osie, and Chris (all concerning Grape's claim). Osie posts a votecount showing that Grape and Tom are both at 4 votes. Again, scum!Axel could very easily have held off on the vote (there were still outstanding questions to Grape), or even found a reason to vote Tom, but he votes Grape. A few posts later I vote Grape, then a few more Wisp hammers.

    Nope. Never will you ever convince me that Axel is scum this game. No way. No how.

    I am also less convinced that Osie being Az's counterwagon is as town-indicative as I've been thinking.

    Ok, so no one's claiming to have redirected me. I really expected Osie to claim as much (and that the fourth unmentioned-at-the-time ability was a redirect/bus drive, not a doctor), but, of course, that wouldn't be logical since he was pushing for Tom's lunch yesterDay, so why would he redirect a vig shot away from Tom (unless, of course, Osie's scum)?

    So scum *do* still have an interference role. :/ To the extent that I want to find that role, I would like a mass claim, but we're at 10-2 with 7 unclaimed (if you count me, and you should count me). In a role madness game, that's a hefty chunk that scum still don't know about (at least 5 town roles, probably), so I don't know that it's a good plan quite yet?

    Chris, can you go into detail as to why you feel this way?
    Quote from Sir Chris »
    By the way, I just want to say this before it is night: if I had to choose, I'd lynch Cantripmancer over Tom every time mechanically. Not putting any behavior into this atm, but the mechanics of the game favor a scum night vig and a town day vig over the reverse. This isn't a read, I just wanted to get this outside of my head before night comes.




    I have (probably bad) reasons to think KJ's town, but I'm out of time for the moment. More when I can.

    Unvote
    Posted in: Mafia
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