So does Triumph of Cruelty make you feel the same way? And if not, why not?
Triumph of Cruelty is pretty disgusting, but not as evocative unfortunately. Gender inequality is a systemic perspective, so even if we strive for it objectively, we're not quite there yet. That's the only real difference; otherwise, yes, they're equally frightening.
I don't even understand what's so "disgusting" about either card. Unless you consider a fictional depiction of two people fighting "disgusting", but I'm assuming that's not it (else, if you were consistent, you would have to consider all cards that depict fighting "disgusting", such as Deicide or Pheres-Band Thunderhoof.)
Just keep your sociopolitical biases out of the game, and you'll be much happier.
Boy, aren't we feeling aggressive and defensive. There's a difference between those depictions and the Triumph depictions (i.e. the use of weapons). Hell, even the hand-to-hand combat scenes shown on other cards are not nearly as "handsy", a point that I've already noted to the suggestive nature of what I find disgusting. It's the same reason something like Wretched Banquet is a disgusting card. In a game full of elegant and mechanical depictions, the use of grabby hands is very disgusting.
So, yes. Just keep your silly expectations and biases out of my art preferences and you'll be much happier.
Ugh can this not devolve into another three about triumph of ferocity? That issue has been discussed ad nauseam in a dozen other threads. Also yay unintentional ad nauseam reference.
Haha, good way to sneak that in there! I do apologise for the unnecessary controversy. I hesitated to put it in there at all, but it WAS the first card that came to mind when I had to think about it (likely due to all the negative publicity it received). It's just evocative of something disgusting; none of the other cards really have needed reasons for being disgusting here as it's merely opinion. I figure since I wasn't pushing my opinion on others to agree, the defensive stance behind it would not be there either.
And before I do address the questions inquiring, I would like to add Screeching Skaab to the nightmare fuel.
Really? I can come up with about half a dozen female players, none of whom have ever reacted too much to the art on Triumph of Ferocity. Even if you're not someone who follows the story, the flavour text makes it clear this is an act of desperation on Garruk's part.
Well, okay. I also know three who find no problem with it, either. That... that doesn't necessarily invalidate the opinions of the two who felt it was too evocative. And I almost exclusively post in F&S so I understand the context.
So does Triumph of Cruelty make you feel the same way? And if not, why not?
Triumph of Cruelty is pretty disgusting, but not as evocative unfortunately. Gender inequality is a systemic perspective, so even if we strive for it objectively, we're not quite there yet. That's the only real difference; otherwise, yes, they're equally frightening.
So they also look at all the art in which a female character threatens/kills/tortures a male character in a different light too?
I can't really recall too much card art on the fly, so you'd have to give me an example. I already pretty much concede that Triumph of Cruelty is a pretty repulsive depiction, but it doesn't hit the same level. It's just all the handsiness of both those cards. And in Cruelty's case, it's a LOT of nasty hands.
And I will say that I never really got the art of Anson Maddocks. Some of his pieces were unnecessarily grotesque like Blood Lust and Sengir Vampire.
Just saw this post and, boy, do I agree with you on Anson Maddocks. It's not even the explicitness of his work. There's something just jarring about his style. The first time I laid eyes on Llanowar Elves, I thought, "Welp, this game seems really creepy already." Hell, the Sengir Vampire and the Llanowar Elves could be brothers.
Can I say Triumph of Ferocity without sounding like a troll? Because I'll be honest that it didn't first disgust me, but listening to the perspective of some female Magic players that did made me look at it in a different light. And that is both unfortunate and repulsive. =(
As for visual disturbing, Ad Nauseam kills me every time I see it. It's how I feel when I'm organising my collection.
They didn't kill an already interesting character. They first killed a nameless, storyless character, a generic avatar from the previous DotP. Then later, they gave him a backstory and personality. We knew "Garruk killed him" way before we knew "his name is Vronos and he's from Innistrad".
And of course, people complained because he was a nobody at first, and later because he was too good to kill. There's no way out here, someone would consider this a waste either way.
Then they make a character with even less lore about ("Icy")... and again some think he's just another bland dead characters, and to others he's still too interesting to kill.
I cannot like this comment any more than I already do. It's so very true about the community and just the consequence of having such a large audience. Chances are, you won't please everyone. Hell, I'm just happy they're attempting to please ANYONE.
With the loss of the publication line, I had all but thought Magic's Creative was doomed. Being a traditionalist at heart, I thought they'd lost their primary outlet for telling a good story within the limitations of the card game. Seeing them churn out so much story through multimedia outlets like the UR articles, DotP games, prerelease events, and other sources, I'm heartened by their effort.
Of course, that also means I'm REALLY SAD because of how far back I am on what remains of the lore. I intend to look up the wiki later today to get myself caught up, maybe find the e-novels, and then plow through the rest of the UR archive (the most recent one is what brings me back here). But are there any other primary sources that I should be looking into? Something worth mentioning that I will probably miss in my endeavour to catch up w/ the last three years of lore?
I know there was a fun little back-and-forth between Gisa and Geralf that was done through some kind of media game and I'm wondering if there were more things like that around.
Ravnica was left basically the same, as I pointed out earlier.
Innistrad is actually in an objectively better spot than how we found it since it was on the fast track towards extinction when we first stepped in.
You seem to just be choosing to overlook these since they don't agree with what you're pushing for.
Don't forget your previously mentioned Kamigawa, too! We actually visited it during a very severe change and the entire story was for our heroes to return it back to its status quo.
Lacking humans in and of itself isn't too notable of a trait. Plenty of other planes also lack certain creature types. What was more notable was that Lorwyn only had those specific tribes and nothing else.[.quote]
Point in fact, the lack of humans actually IS a very important trait. No other plane that we have visited shares this planar trait. Lorwyn is immutably unique in that manner. Merely because you personally do not find this uniqueness an important trait does not disregard its importance in the lore.
Heck, Brand even used the "no human, heavy tribal" theme as a key marketing point for Lorwyn.
[quote]Let's revisit my point:
Have these planes not been drastically altered from the state in which we were introduced to them? Haven't the last remaining mirrans been wiped out and compleated? Hasn't Zendikar been overrun with Eldrazi and their spawn? Hasn't Lorwyn lost it's unnatural cycle? Obviously I'm not expecting that everything remain completely stagnant, but when looking at the worlds, I'm pretty sure my point holds up.
Well, let's see.
Mirrans are, ironically, not what made Mirrodin unique. It was that it was an artifact world. Appropriately, that was what the Phyrexians loved best about the Mirrans and kept that.
Zendikar's unique focus was the land. Seeing as how the land still continues to fight off the Eldrazi (though losing, if I remember correctly), I'm pretty sure that, too, remains intact.
As stated above, Lorwyn's uniqueness was actually a number of things. The lack of humans and heavy tribal themes being among them. I'll give you the fact that Lorwyn no longer has the change into Shadowmoor, but that "feature" wasn't really a selling point for the plane.
Especially since that reveal only happened during Shadowmoor and used that as ITS unique selling point. In fact, the OP--to which this thread has strayed quite a bit from--quaintly ignores the aspect of Shadowmoor when he/she evaluates Lorwyn as a plane. While not indicative to the importance of that unique trait, it is a valid assertion.
I will grant you that your point holds some truth to it, but it seems a bit hyperbolic. Every plane we have visited has changed, for sure. Has Creative destroyed the "essence" of the planes? I would say for New Phyrexia, a strong maybe, but it's arguable that Creative destroyed Mirrodin's unique "soul-capturing spark generation machine" feature back in our first visit to Mirrodin. The others, not so much. Not until we return to the Eldrazi and find Zendikar entirely consumed. Then I'll come back and agree with you.
I feel like you haven't noticed because you're not looking.
There are plenty of hunky guys in Magic, it's just not as pushed as it is with the ladies because most Magic players are straight guys.
I very much agree with this statement. Off the top of my head, I can thinkofafew. And that's just conventional attractiveness--since we're looking for "hunky". There are even more cute and debonair-looking men in the world of Magic.
If it where, then every piece of clothing where you could see the top or bottom of a womans breasts, such as about half of all dresses, swimsuits, and all bikini's would be objectifying women, and that is clearly not the case.
In the same vein: Nudity =/= Sex.
Ah, I totally want to agree with this because it's true, but damned if it wasn't Teysa.
Since, after all, it's the Orzhov guild. The guild known for procuring power and showing force in subtle and underhanded ways. Not quite secretive like the Dimir nor bombastic as the Boros. The cleavage window is almost a perfect metaphor for Orzhovian power against the other guilds and amongst each other.
Of course, with that taken into consideration, it's also an example of a woman using her sexuality as an empowering tool. After all, why would an Orzhovian woman of such pedigree as Teysa be seen subjugated by the will of the patriarchy? Her ENTIRE FLAVOUR AND CHARACTER are built specifically as a foil to the patriarchy represented as the Ghost Council. She subverts everything they try to do and twists them in favour for her own needs.
So... yeah. Teysa is sexualized. But I think y'all are kinda missing the point as to why.
Which segues to demons. The same can be said about female demons. Whether Creative wants to utilize that or not is up to them. Lord knows we have enough splendid examples of empowered women using whatever tools are available to them. And they don't need to be demonic.
The Bloodlines project--and consequently, the Weatherlight--was not only the longest order of multi-generational engineering that Urza partook, but also the largest in scope. Not only did Urza oversee and maintain these parallel developments, he applied different levels of influence over each.
In the case of metathran, his influence was heavy so the genetic engineering was also heavily applied. They were created asexually, but he had a direct hand in their formation so I suppose they didn't really need any genitals anyway.
When involved with the Kelds, the influence was indirect in that most of their genetic engineering came as generational enhancements through a former pupil.
For Benalia, Urza's influence was almost undetectable since there was no direct genetic engineering at all. However, I remember a passage explaining Benalish marital arrangements and ceremonies and I'm 99% certain that the book alluded to the fact that all royal marriages were arranged through Urza. Just another form of genetic control.
All this information can be found in the Bloodlines book. When I return home, I'll look for the specific passages, but for now, only my memory is of any use.
As for Mirri and Crovax... I can't remember what Urza did for the Green and Black bloodlines. I'm pretty sure Crovax and the Urborg families had something similar to Benalia, but that's merely speculative extrapolation.
I suspect that they enjoy their status as powerful and dangerous creatures and exert that status over lesser beings the way a predator stalks its prey.
I think the reason why some gorgons are green is to play up their "predator" aspect.
You know, originally, when this notion came up, I was very resistant to it. I still am. But it may be time for me to recognise that this might be the reason they fit in Green.
I just need some clarification, though. What makes a Green predator different from other colours' predators. After all, red have dragons, black have insects, white have raptors, and blue have drakes. I know predation is a Green trait and have subconsciously accepted it, but I guess I never bothered to ask what about it was Green.
Not shards in the same planar space. Five totally separate broken planes. Bolas also had nothing to do with the conflux occurring. It was going to happen regardless of his involvement.
I understood that they were certainly not in the same planar space, but did planeswalkers who were not knowledgeable of Alara's united state consider each one as a different plane? I hadn't realised that was the case, but it certainly would make sense that way. Thanks for the clarification.
Ah, ever the vigilant warden, Barinellos! Of course you would catch my fabrication of Bolas' involvement in the conflux. I know it's no good to spread untruths in here, but I was really hoping I could sneak in a little more infamy for the old dragon.
We already have this thread, but since we've had a recent slew of necro'ed threads, I figured I'd just repeat the thread, link it, and ask to be combined if it's easier that way.
When last we met on that thread, I think it was rather unanimous that (1) Gorgons have no real business being in Green and (2) multi-coloured Gorgons with Green in them are uniquely Ravnican Gorgons.
With Theros being released with its Greek theme and strong mono-coloured theme, I was really hoping to have our assertions confirmed. Today, as I looked through the Card Image Gallery, I can't say that I wasn't a little pleasantly surprised (if only b/c we can continue to explore what makes Gorgons Green) to see this lass among their number.
Nah, you are no worse than the rest of us, unless you're secretly a serial killer or something.
Fate. I feel like it has been tempted.
As for Ashiok, I know our need for information is insatiable, but I think we might be scrutinizing the name origin a bit too much. After all, I believe Elspeth is English and Jace is Greek.
I love the design and art, though. Honestly, if Ashiok is just a one-off planeswalker like Tibalt, I don't think I'd be too disappointed. I liked the design of the Dapper Devil as well.
Primal Beyond kinda points towards Lorwyn/Shadowmoor being flat(ish) as it shows that it has a definite edge.
Oh, I'm not arguing that it isn't. I'm arguing that it isn't a pancake. I believe it has a ceiling for its celestial bodies to sit upon. Or, well, if it's a pancake, it's a THICK pancake.
It makes the definition of "flat" a bit innocuous since we don't normally talk about a plane's celestial bodies as residing within the plane. When players talk about a plane, they will normally refer to the land and not what lies above or, in the case of multi-planetary planes, around it.
Take for example our Earth. When people talk about it in the celestial sense, we talk about the big rock and all those things that live in and on it. But if there were motes of stars within the atmosphere, those too would be a part of the Earth.
That's more or less what I'm trying to say in terms of planes with celestial entities like Innistrad's moon or Mirrodin's suns. And, in the case of Lorwyn, it's sun and moon as well.
Well, we don't really know what composes a plane beyond what we see.
Lorywn, as we know it, is flat like a map, like how explorers way back when thought Earth was.
Very true, but I think with cards like Wheel of Sun and Moon and illustrations like Prismatic Omen, we can make a presumption that the denizens of the plane know that celestial bodies exist within their realm.
If that's the case, these celestial bodies exist far above the ground, so it's reasonable to imagine a 3-dimensional plane with a significant Y-axis value. Anything else beyond what we're told about the flatness of Lorwyn is speculation I suppose. I just don't think Lorwyn is a pancake plane as Sigifried suggested.
@Sigifried: Alara was one plane that was somehow separated into five distinct shards. After time and a little help from Bolas (though that may have been inconsequential), Alara's shards merged together to reform the original plane with its five colours intact.
So, yes. Just keep your silly expectations and biases out of my art preferences and you'll be much happier.
Haha, good way to sneak that in there! I do apologise for the unnecessary controversy. I hesitated to put it in there at all, but it WAS the first card that came to mind when I had to think about it (likely due to all the negative publicity it received). It's just evocative of something disgusting; none of the other cards really have needed reasons for being disgusting here as it's merely opinion. I figure since I wasn't pushing my opinion on others to agree, the defensive stance behind it would not be there either.
And before I do address the questions inquiring, I would like to add Screeching Skaab to the nightmare fuel.
Well, okay. I also know three who find no problem with it, either. That... that doesn't necessarily invalidate the opinions of the two who felt it was too evocative. And I almost exclusively post in F&S so I understand the context.
I'm sure Earthbind is disgusting for some, too, but I was always too turned off by that wall of text more.
Triumph of Cruelty is pretty disgusting, but not as evocative unfortunately. Gender inequality is a systemic perspective, so even if we strive for it objectively, we're not quite there yet. That's the only real difference; otherwise, yes, they're equally frightening.
I can't really recall too much card art on the fly, so you'd have to give me an example. I already pretty much concede that Triumph of Cruelty is a pretty repulsive depiction, but it doesn't hit the same level. It's just all the handsiness of both those cards. And in Cruelty's case, it's a LOT of nasty hands.
EDIT:Just saw this post and, boy, do I agree with you on Anson Maddocks. It's not even the explicitness of his work. There's something just jarring about his style. The first time I laid eyes on Llanowar Elves, I thought, "Welp, this game seems really creepy already." Hell, the Sengir Vampire and the Llanowar Elves could be brothers.
As for visual disturbing, Ad Nauseam kills me every time I see it. It's how I feel when I'm organising my collection.
I cannot like this comment any more than I already do. It's so very true about the community and just the consequence of having such a large audience. Chances are, you won't please everyone. Hell, I'm just happy they're attempting to please ANYONE.
With the loss of the publication line, I had all but thought Magic's Creative was doomed. Being a traditionalist at heart, I thought they'd lost their primary outlet for telling a good story within the limitations of the card game. Seeing them churn out so much story through multimedia outlets like the UR articles, DotP games, prerelease events, and other sources, I'm heartened by their effort.
Of course, that also means I'm REALLY SAD because of how far back I am on what remains of the lore. I intend to look up the wiki later today to get myself caught up, maybe find the e-novels, and then plow through the rest of the UR archive (the most recent one is what brings me back here). But are there any other primary sources that I should be looking into? Something worth mentioning that I will probably miss in my endeavour to catch up w/ the last three years of lore?
I know there was a fun little back-and-forth between Gisa and Geralf that was done through some kind of media game and I'm wondering if there were more things like that around.
Don't forget your previously mentioned Kamigawa, too! We actually visited it during a very severe change and the entire story was for our heroes to return it back to its status quo.
Well, let's see.
Mirrans are, ironically, not what made Mirrodin unique. It was that it was an artifact world. Appropriately, that was what the Phyrexians loved best about the Mirrans and kept that.
Zendikar's unique focus was the land. Seeing as how the land still continues to fight off the Eldrazi (though losing, if I remember correctly), I'm pretty sure that, too, remains intact.
As stated above, Lorwyn's uniqueness was actually a number of things. The lack of humans and heavy tribal themes being among them. I'll give you the fact that Lorwyn no longer has the change into Shadowmoor, but that "feature" wasn't really a selling point for the plane.
Especially since that reveal only happened during Shadowmoor and used that as ITS unique selling point. In fact, the OP--to which this thread has strayed quite a bit from--quaintly ignores the aspect of Shadowmoor when he/she evaluates Lorwyn as a plane. While not indicative to the importance of that unique trait, it is a valid assertion.
I will grant you that your point holds some truth to it, but it seems a bit hyperbolic. Every plane we have visited has changed, for sure. Has Creative destroyed the "essence" of the planes? I would say for New Phyrexia, a strong maybe, but it's arguable that Creative destroyed Mirrodin's unique "soul-capturing spark generation machine" feature back in our first visit to Mirrodin. The others, not so much. Not until we return to the Eldrazi and find Zendikar entirely consumed. Then I'll come back and agree with you.
I very much agree with this statement. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few. And that's just conventional attractiveness--since we're looking for "hunky". There are even more cute and debonair-looking men in the world of Magic.
That's also just the rank and file. Meanwhile, the greater male:female ratio of planeswalkers is actually a boon for male cheesecake. Our headline cast of guys like Koth of the Hammer, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Gideon, Champion of Justice, and Garruk, Caller of Beasts are wonderful examples of attractive men.
Ah, I totally want to agree with this because it's true, but damned if it wasn't Teysa.
Since, after all, it's the Orzhov guild. The guild known for procuring power and showing force in subtle and underhanded ways. Not quite secretive like the Dimir nor bombastic as the Boros. The cleavage window is almost a perfect metaphor for Orzhovian power against the other guilds and amongst each other.
Of course, with that taken into consideration, it's also an example of a woman using her sexuality as an empowering tool. After all, why would an Orzhovian woman of such pedigree as Teysa be seen subjugated by the will of the patriarchy? Her ENTIRE FLAVOUR AND CHARACTER are built specifically as a foil to the patriarchy represented as the Ghost Council. She subverts everything they try to do and twists them in favour for her own needs.
So... yeah. Teysa is sexualized. But I think y'all are kinda missing the point as to why.
Which segues to demons. The same can be said about female demons. Whether Creative wants to utilize that or not is up to them. Lord knows we have enough splendid examples of empowered women using whatever tools are available to them. And they don't need to be demonic.
The Bloodlines project--and consequently, the Weatherlight--was not only the longest order of multi-generational engineering that Urza partook, but also the largest in scope. Not only did Urza oversee and maintain these parallel developments, he applied different levels of influence over each.
In the case of metathran, his influence was heavy so the genetic engineering was also heavily applied. They were created asexually, but he had a direct hand in their formation so I suppose they didn't really need any genitals anyway.
When involved with the Kelds, the influence was indirect in that most of their genetic engineering came as generational enhancements through a former pupil.
For Benalia, Urza's influence was almost undetectable since there was no direct genetic engineering at all. However, I remember a passage explaining Benalish marital arrangements and ceremonies and I'm 99% certain that the book alluded to the fact that all royal marriages were arranged through Urza. Just another form of genetic control.
All this information can be found in the Bloodlines book. When I return home, I'll look for the specific passages, but for now, only my memory is of any use.
As for Mirri and Crovax... I can't remember what Urza did for the Green and Black bloodlines. I'm pretty sure Crovax and the Urborg families had something similar to Benalia, but that's merely speculative extrapolation.
You know, originally, when this notion came up, I was very resistant to it. I still am. But it may be time for me to recognise that this might be the reason they fit in Green.
I just need some clarification, though. What makes a Green predator different from other colours' predators. After all, red have dragons, black have insects, white have raptors, and blue have drakes. I know predation is a Green trait and have subconsciously accepted it, but I guess I never bothered to ask what about it was Green.
I understood that they were certainly not in the same planar space, but did planeswalkers who were not knowledgeable of Alara's united state consider each one as a different plane? I hadn't realised that was the case, but it certainly would make sense that way. Thanks for the clarification.
Ah, ever the vigilant warden, Barinellos! Of course you would catch my fabrication of Bolas' involvement in the conflux. I know it's no good to spread untruths in here, but I was really hoping I could sneak in a little more infamy for the old dragon.
Link: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=506717
When last we met on that thread, I think it was rather unanimous that (1) Gorgons have no real business being in Green and (2) multi-coloured Gorgons with Green in them are uniquely Ravnican Gorgons.
With Theros being released with its Greek theme and strong mono-coloured theme, I was really hoping to have our assertions confirmed. Today, as I looked through the Card Image Gallery, I can't say that I wasn't a little pleasantly surprised (if only b/c we can continue to explore what makes Gorgons Green) to see this lass among their number.
So, they're not exclusive to Ravnica. Thoughts?
Fate. I feel like it has been tempted.
As for Ashiok, I know our need for information is insatiable, but I think we might be scrutinizing the name origin a bit too much. After all, I believe Elspeth is English and Jace is Greek.
I love the design and art, though. Honestly, if Ashiok is just a one-off planeswalker like Tibalt, I don't think I'd be too disappointed. I liked the design of the Dapper Devil as well.
Oh, I'm not arguing that it isn't. I'm arguing that it isn't a pancake. I believe it has a ceiling for its celestial bodies to sit upon. Or, well, if it's a pancake, it's a THICK pancake.
It makes the definition of "flat" a bit innocuous since we don't normally talk about a plane's celestial bodies as residing within the plane. When players talk about a plane, they will normally refer to the land and not what lies above or, in the case of multi-planetary planes, around it.
Take for example our Earth. When people talk about it in the celestial sense, we talk about the big rock and all those things that live in and on it. But if there were motes of stars within the atmosphere, those too would be a part of the Earth.
That's more or less what I'm trying to say in terms of planes with celestial entities like Innistrad's moon or Mirrodin's suns. And, in the case of Lorwyn, it's sun and moon as well.
Very true, but I think with cards like Wheel of Sun and Moon and illustrations like Prismatic Omen, we can make a presumption that the denizens of the plane know that celestial bodies exist within their realm.
If that's the case, these celestial bodies exist far above the ground, so it's reasonable to imagine a 3-dimensional plane with a significant Y-axis value. Anything else beyond what we're told about the flatness of Lorwyn is speculation I suppose. I just don't think Lorwyn is a pancake plane as Sigifried suggested.
@Sigifried: Alara was one plane that was somehow separated into five distinct shards. After time and a little help from Bolas (though that may have been inconsequential), Alara's shards merged together to reform the original plane with its five colours intact.