So this is a bit ominous. The head of magic design thinks that the pro tour is the main reason why modern is broken, and the lack of pro tours as opposed to better answers being teh reason why legacy is able to police itself.
Is he right? (I don't think so. It might contribute a little, but the lack of effective generic answers in modern is definitely the premier cause.)
"We at Wizards are doubling down on our stance that the modern pro tour shouldn't exist. At the same time it is too difficult for us to bother working on making a balanced format. We will just ban things until you have been beaten into submission."
I'm shocked that people continue to believe WOTC wants a balanced format. Modern doesn't have a turn 4 clock. It has at best a turn 3 clock. Because Wizards refuses to print better generic answers there is no reason to think things will get any better.
If you are sick of people complaining about how uninteractive modern is, go watch PT BNG and then go watch PT OGW. There's a world of difference in what modern used to be and what it has become.
I continue to see the terms linear and noninteractive pop up left and right as these boogeymen as if absolutely no one wants to play or play against these types of decks (yet they seem to dominate the meta). I'm not a fan of either, but what do we really want the format to be? A bunch of durdly control decks against a bunch of midrange decks where the most exciting thing that happens is the resolution of a spell on the seventh turn? That sounds like an equally boring meta to me.
basically refuse to see the format for what it is.
Are we really scared of there being too much control in modern? It's NEVER happened. It's never even been CLOSE to happening. But we'll spread fear mongering about how boring it would be or others who bring up the stupid CAWBLADE era of standard even though what we have now is WORSE THAN CAWBLADE EVER WAS. So blue can never been good because otherwise it would be cawblade.
The worst part about this stupid Eldrazi deck is that it has so messed up the format that we don't even consider how overrepresented combo and aggro are to be a problem. I'm sick of playing past opponents and I'm shocked more people arent.
I'm open about what I want. I want to rebalance back towards less synergy based, less combo based, less linear decks, to more slow and interactive decks. More games that go on for many turns, where you aren't just praying to draw the right removal or die on turn 4. No more modern where it's two ships sailing past each other in the night racing to their destination, but two ships in a naval battle with cannons going off. I want efficient, powerful midrange creatures and answers for the diverse range of linear hyper-aggro/combo threats. I won't ever be happy unless fair midrange, control and aggro decks are at least 50% of the metagame. Anything and everything I post is geared towards advancing that narrative.
I used to think SFM was abhorrently powerful but now I feel that the linear decks are just as powerful. I used to be against all free counters but now I feel the meta is so fast, what other choice is there?
It's not going to happen because Modern doesnt start far enough back to have the strong generic answers and Wizards is already toning down on the power of answers in standard and has been for a while. Wizards doesnt care about a balanced format.
Eldrazi is a huge problem but it is a problem for all decks, even infect and affinity. Once a silver bullet has been identified for that deck, hopefully we'll have more game against them.
In another line of thought, has anyone tried bringing monastery mentor out of the board, once all or most removal has been sided out? Seems like it could work.
And lastly, as I always say during spoilers, here's hoping we get new tech in shadows over Innistrad!
I've never done Monastery Mentor. I have tried Geist of Saint Traft to help my clock vs Combo / Tron. It was surprisingly effective, but I ultimately dropped it for more answers in the form of more diverse counterspells.
I think people are misunderstanding how a metagame works.
The decks that beat Eldrazi don't have to beat the entire rest of the format to be good in a format with lots of Eldrazi. Choosing a deck with a strong matchup against one or two major decks, but an even or poor matchup against the rest of the format, is an entirely reasonable option.
You also don't have to personally play those decks for them to stabilize the metagame. Don't like playing Ensnaring Bridge? Well, when all the bridge decks jump in to beat Eldrazi, play a deck that beats those decks.
That's what a healthy metagame looks like. No deck beats every deck. Once Eldrazi's predators start coming out in force, decks that beat those decks can start to flourish, especially if Eldrazi has to compromise its strategy to gain ground against Bridge. And boom, once you have three types of decks that all beat each other, you have the core of a metagame. T2 decks start finding weird niches, BGx starts having a 50% matchup against the entire field besides one deck again (Now Eldrazi instead of Tron, though I don't think Tron stops existing or anything, just becomes less relevant), weird combo and Affinity steal games from players who don't expect them, and everything goes back to how it was but with a bunch of the positions shuffled around.
We understand what a metagame is. The problem is that if the meta evolves into Eldrazi, Prison, and Hyper Aggro is something no one wants to play. It'd be miserable.
So what would your idea of a powerful answer be? An instant speed Maelstrom Pulse? A universal 2 mana kill spell? A universal 2 mana land destruction spell? Counter magic is tricky because anything too efficient (FoW, Pact of Negation, Daze) gets used BY linear combo more than the decks fighting it.
The issue is the lack of a control deck, simply because the control decks don't have the ability to get more gas. Efficient draw winds up in the hands of combo decks.
A modified Force of Will (something that doesn't push the format so hard into needing blue cards)
Daze
Counterspell
Vindicate
Swords to Plowshares
Tutors that can find answers but not threats (like searching for 2 CMC or less spells that target creatures/permanents)
Innocent Blood
Cabal Therapy
Hymn
...and some new stuff for Green that I can't think of at the moment. Oddly enough, red is actually right where it should be.
It's probably best to not go into the realm of LD. If LD is needed as an answer, manabases should simply eat bans instead. The amount of land hate going on in the format already between Spreading Seas, Blood Moon, and all the rest is too much as it is and is a significant factor in the formats current issues. We've gone into the realm where one of the best strategies is to do your thing while preventing the opponent from playing the game.
Hmm I agree with the idea of this post but for the most part I think your specific answers are sort of eh. A bunch of these aren't things that modern probably needs.
Force of Will is a card modern doesnt need if Wizards was serious about the turn 4 rule. If they actually kept up with the format and enforced this rule then it wouldnt be needed at all. Daze is a fun card that forces more interaction. It helps Tempo and I doubt it's horrific in the format (but I am a bit wary) Counterspell would be a decent catch all answer that forces decks to interact. It's a fantastic add! Vindicate is probably unneeded but its a decent catch all. It gives a huge boost to junk and BW Processor Eldrazi. Swords To Plowshares isn't really needed Path to Exile is fine. Innocent BloodYes! What a good card to add to the format! Cabal Therapy I'm torn on. It's one of the most skill intensive cards in the game, but its probably something that combo adopts and I don't think it's needed. Hymn To Tourach Not needed. Discard in Modern is fine.
This is my stance on the matter. Modern is home to a ton of degeneracy right now. The most elegant thing Wizards could do to combat this, without needing to resort to bans, would be to simply reprint Force Spike in an upcoming set. This would help give control decks a place in the format again, as they would have a new, efficient tool for combatting all these crazy efficient aggro decks that want to tap out and play their threats.
Force Spike is a terrible control card because it scales poorly into the late game. Which is what control wants to do. We even have Mana Tithe which is basically the same thing considering white is a color that can play the control role very well.
Yeah we know. There have been people saying in this thread that Wizards doesn't care about a balanced format forever. They just want attendance to rise and for people to buy new packs.
They've capitulated for years about people complaining about powerful police cards because they're whiny and loud. Now we basically have a format that gets broken every year and they have to have new bans every year to slap some new bandaids on it.
I don't want to link the site because it will get them a WOTC cease-and-desist for scraping MTGO results, but there is someone out there monitoring MTGO match results. Not only is Eldrazi 50% of the winners metagame, but both versions have MWP of around 65%. No other deck is over 54%. For reference, Affinity has a MWP around 64% against Merfolk, and Burn is 64% against Tron. So Eldrazi is a little better against the field than Affinity is against Merfolk or Burn is against Tron. WOTC has all this data, and I'm sure they are paying attention to it.
That is horrific, and somehow unsurprising.
Want to be more inspired?
WOTC doesnt give a ***** about diversity of archetypes.
Formats dominated by aggro and combo seem to be quite ok with WOTC. It's very likely theyre pleased with the non interactivity we've seen in the PT. That's whats more worrying than Eldrazi.
you shouldn't be so sure that we identify with those posters that much instead of Maro, personally i have great appreciation for Maro's work and articles/opinions and i lets say that the guy that calls Maro 'mentally challenged' did not leave me with the best impression (wow i said that smoothly!)
everyone seems to be twisting his words, he said that there's diversity but he has also acknowledged the Eldrazi problem, what we can hold from here is that he essentially excluded the emergency ban, as he said 'it's ok if some smart people smash a tournament, the problem is if this continues in the longterm'
also the article he provided was mentioning that a drop to midrange/control decks was expected due to the unknown metagame
Please don't put words in my mouth. My comment is obviously about how Forsythe saying a field of 80% combo and aggro is a good thing. It has nothing to do with people insulting Maro.
I get that you might not agree with me about a lot of things, but don't straw man me.
I don't want to link the site because it will get them a WOTC cease-and-desist for scraping MTGO results, but there is someone out there monitoring MTGO match results. Not only is Eldrazi 50% of the winners metagame, but both versions have MWP of around 65%. No other deck is over 54%. For reference, Affinity has a MWP around 64% against Merfolk, and Burn is 64% against Tron. So Eldrazi is a little better against the field than Affinity is against Merfolk or Burn is against Tron. WOTC has all this data, and I'm sure they are paying attention to it.
That is horrific, and somehow unsurprising.
Want to be more inspired?
WOTC doesnt give a ***** about diversity of archetypes.
Formats dominated by aggro and combo seem to be quite ok with WOTC. It's very likely theyre pleased with the non interactivity we've seen in the PT. That's whats more worrying than Eldrazi.
Out of curiosity, what's the deal with Flagstones of Trokair? I understand it's played in some Death & Taxes, but what's with the 150% spike? I should have gotten one for my commander deck when it was at 10. =P
Hype around Boom//Bust and "OMG WE CAN NEXT LEVEL ELDRAZI AND TRON"
There is a very real danger of Wizards deciding not to ban until the next modern pro tour. If that happens then there will likely be droves of modern players leaving the format and not returning. IF the problem is not dealt with before Modern season than Modern will have lost many people and by then its unlikely anyone will want to come back.
If the metagame data holds through March, that would be totally and utterly insane. I'm already confident they planned on unbanning something in April (Forsythe's Tweets were suggestive in that regard), and I can't believe they factored this Eldrazi issue into their Twinless world. If the numbers don't hold and Eldrazi falls back to a more reasonable share, then sure, it can stay. If not, it's gotta go.
Don't rule out WOTC doing anything. Its just as reasonable to assume they don't want to ban anything out of the deck because they want to keep people's decks in place. Plus it gives more reasons to sell any more copies of the MM2015 or OGW. There's almost as much evidence and cynical speculative business politics behind them keeping it around until the next modern pro tour as there is of them doing something about it now.
Delaying the innevitable isn't good for anyone. Would you spend your money on an eldrazi deck right now? Would you advise anyone else to? Would you advise anyone to bring another deck to a tournament or even attend at all? Waiting isn't a complete free-roll.
I agree those are unfortunate, but also uncertain, costs. That said, the costs of premature action, although still uncertain, are far more dangerous for Modern. There is no period in Modern's history that suggests players will be so turned off in just two months that they will never return. If Eldrazi proves to be a problem, Wizards will ban it in April and be done with it. Players will then return and Modern will eventually be totally fine. Early action runs the huge risk of banning the wrong card (which could force Wizards to do yet another ban or have unforeseen consequences elsewhere), and sets a terrible precedent that would plague Modern for years.
The costs and risks of waiting just aren't very high. The costs and risks of early action are much higher.
There is a very real danger of Wizards deciding not to ban until the next modern pro tour. If that happens then there will likely be droves of modern players leaving the format and not returning. IF the problem is not dealt with before Modern season than Modern will have lost many people and by then its unlikely anyone will want to come back.
I'll also point out that the "Beat Eldrazi" Strategy people are hammering is one that people are very loudly against. It's either prison to lock them out or its been to be extreme aggro with land destruction to stop them.
In the past when people in this thread have expressed an interest in playing land destruction or prison they were told to "Go play legacy, we have a format for that." Now those same posters who told them to go off are saying "Let's see if we can adjust."
Even if the meta adjusts to prison, eldrazi, or hyper aggro I doubt that's the vision of the format Wizards has in mind. And I doubt its the type of magic a majority of the playerbase wants to play.
There's been a large outcry in the two main event groups I've been in on facebook concerning going to events. Many people I know have already canceled their GP plans. It's not just due to this, but it makes the hassle of going far less worth it.
Im confident we'll see a dip in event attendance until the deck is banned, and although we aren't allowed to look at the numbers I wouldn't be surprised if theres a lot less modern matches being played on MTGO as well.
The preliminary data has this being worse than the dreaded "cawblade standard" and that was the most oppressive standard deck by the numbers we've had according to WOTC. The deck just isnt blue so you don't also have the obnoxious anti blue chorus that this thread is often full of. Or people who adamantly stand by the go play other formats if that's what you want.
"We at Wizards are doubling down on our stance that the modern pro tour shouldn't exist. At the same time it is too difficult for us to bother working on making a balanced format. We will just ban things until you have been beaten into submission."
If you are sick of people complaining about how uninteractive modern is, go watch PT BNG and then go watch PT OGW. There's a world of difference in what modern used to be and what it has become.
I'm also shocked that people like
basically refuse to see the format for what it is.
Are we really scared of there being too much control in modern? It's NEVER happened. It's never even been CLOSE to happening. But we'll spread fear mongering about how boring it would be or others who bring up the stupid CAWBLADE era of standard even though what we have now is WORSE THAN CAWBLADE EVER WAS. So blue can never been good because otherwise it would be cawblade.
The worst part about this stupid Eldrazi deck is that it has so messed up the format that we don't even consider how overrepresented combo and aggro are to be a problem. I'm sick of playing past opponents and I'm shocked more people arent.
It's not going to happen because Modern doesnt start far enough back to have the strong generic answers and Wizards is already toning down on the power of answers in standard and has been for a while. Wizards doesnt care about a balanced format.
I've never done Monastery Mentor. I have tried Geist of Saint Traft to help my clock vs Combo / Tron. It was surprisingly effective, but I ultimately dropped it for more answers in the form of more diverse counterspells.
We understand what a metagame is. The problem is that if the meta evolves into Eldrazi, Prison, and Hyper Aggro is something no one wants to play. It'd be miserable.
Hmm I agree with the idea of this post but for the most part I think your specific answers are sort of eh. A bunch of these aren't things that modern probably needs.
Force of Will is a card modern doesnt need if Wizards was serious about the turn 4 rule. If they actually kept up with the format and enforced this rule then it wouldnt be needed at all.
Daze is a fun card that forces more interaction. It helps Tempo and I doubt it's horrific in the format (but I am a bit wary)
Counterspell would be a decent catch all answer that forces decks to interact. It's a fantastic add!
Vindicate is probably unneeded but its a decent catch all. It gives a huge boost to junk and BW Processor Eldrazi.
Swords To Plowshares isn't really needed Path to Exile is fine.
Innocent BloodYes! What a good card to add to the format!
Cabal Therapy I'm torn on. It's one of the most skill intensive cards in the game, but its probably something that combo adopts and I don't think it's needed.
Hymn To Tourach Not needed. Discard in Modern is fine.
(Psst Green should get Regrowth)
Force Spike is a terrible control card because it scales poorly into the late game. Which is what control wants to do. We even have Mana Tithe which is basically the same thing considering white is a color that can play the control role very well.
They've capitulated for years about people complaining about powerful police cards because they're whiny and loud. Now we basically have a format that gets broken every year and they have to have new bans every year to slap some new bandaids on it.
Please don't put words in my mouth. My comment is obviously about how Forsythe saying a field of 80% combo and aggro is a good thing. It has nothing to do with people insulting Maro.
I get that you might not agree with me about a lot of things, but don't straw man me.
Want to be more inspired?
WOTC doesnt give a ***** about diversity of archetypes.
https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/696762210261962752
Formats dominated by aggro and combo seem to be quite ok with WOTC. It's very likely theyre pleased with the non interactivity we've seen in the PT. That's whats more worrying than Eldrazi.
Hype around Boom//Bust and "OMG WE CAN NEXT LEVEL ELDRAZI AND TRON"
Don't rule out WOTC doing anything. Its just as reasonable to assume they don't want to ban anything out of the deck because they want to keep people's decks in place. Plus it gives more reasons to sell any more copies of the MM2015 or OGW. There's almost as much evidence and cynical speculative business politics behind them keeping it around until the next modern pro tour as there is of them doing something about it now.
There is a very real danger of Wizards deciding not to ban until the next modern pro tour. If that happens then there will likely be droves of modern players leaving the format and not returning. IF the problem is not dealt with before Modern season than Modern will have lost many people and by then its unlikely anyone will want to come back.
In the past when people in this thread have expressed an interest in playing land destruction or prison they were told to "Go play legacy, we have a format for that." Now those same posters who told them to go off are saying "Let's see if we can adjust."
Even if the meta adjusts to prison, eldrazi, or hyper aggro I doubt that's the vision of the format Wizards has in mind. And I doubt its the type of magic a majority of the playerbase wants to play.
Im confident we'll see a dip in event attendance until the deck is banned, and although we aren't allowed to look at the numbers I wouldn't be surprised if theres a lot less modern matches being played on MTGO as well.
The preliminary data has this being worse than the dreaded "cawblade standard" and that was the most oppressive standard deck by the numbers we've had according to WOTC. The deck just isnt blue so you don't also have the obnoxious anti blue chorus that this thread is often full of. Or people who adamantly stand by the go play other formats if that's what you want.
I'm sure you aren't. I can't wait for the attendance drop in the March GP as well.