Sounds less "on principle" than "off budget", tbh.
The only budget replacement I can think of is Birds of Paradise, but they're really subpar here, obviously.
I have a feeling there is no true replacement, no.
I traded them away at the lowest they ever were, and now my mind has that pegged as its price memory...
Can I afford it? Probably could get them 1 per paycheck and have the set done in 2 months. But my issue is that Nobles can be staples, but I don't usually play decks they are staples in. I'm not really a midrange type of guy, so investig significant discretionary money towards something that is usable in so few applications is giving me pause.
Hence why I'm asking if there's a better way. Or probably to be more accurate, the least crappy way.
I don't want to gum up the official thread with a budget question, and also don't want to ask the budget forums because I'm only out of one certain card.
I traded away my Hierarches back in standard, and have been refusing to get them back on principle now.
I'd like to try infect, and want to know what's the best route of constructing the deck.
Do you play the Wild Defiance game, or just sub in Cathedral of War in place of the Hierarchs? Or is the card just impossible to substitute for, and I should just play without it?
I replaced 1x Mountain with Cinder Glade, and same for 1x of my flex spots.
The lumbering falls I want to actually try and play a few games where I actually see the danged thing before I try out either Temple of Mystery (If I don't mind Lumbering Falls coming into play tapped) or Loothouse (if I do hate the CIPT).
Most times I see someone use the Loothouse, the extra land tends to be Flooded grove or Breeding Pool or Yavimaya Coast. This seems to try and preserve the no ETB tapped lands as much as possible.
Most of the times I saw Temple was in Courser of Kruphix Builds, or those builds using Serum Visions. I don't know if this was to maximize the finding of Scapeshift (which seems good considering its kinda sorta our wincon) or because the opeing of 1st turn Temple going into a 2nd turn Tapped Land into Serum Visions start was the prefered start.
But ultimately we want to be able to cast all our spells under Blood Moon, meaning the 3x Islands and 2x Forest are set as never to be touched. I've heard of folks replacing 1x or 2x basic mountains for Cinder Glade, which makes a certain amount of sense. The rest of the cards seem nailed down too, minus shaving a Misty (which could have been a budget decision).
So where does Lumbering Falls come into this discussion? It would obviously be one of those flex spots, similar to Temple of Mystery. But is the Hexproof 3/3 worth over a one-time Scry 1?
When is it permissible to have ETB Tapped lands in your deck, is it a Serum Visions only deck construction idea?
Where do we plug Cinder Glade into the deck, replace a mountain or both? Use it in the flex spots as extra potential damage?
Had a friend play stasis for a while, he had great time with it.
Unfortunately it was UR, and used Ral Zarek as his untapping engine / wincon.
The masterminds aren't nearly as good as you think. They are the definition of win-more. I recommend that you switch it with Boomarang. It has the opportunity bounce Stasis, but can also be used to keep yourself from dying or demoralize the opponent who just tapped out for a threat only to have it returned.
Also look for misdirection or divert to change targets of Abrupt decay. And you'd be better served with spell pierce than most of your counterspells.
The problem with it is that you still lose to a stifle/trickbind on the inital AoGR trigger. I'll try and find a post that outlines the different kill conditions, and edit it in here. Its a good read.
Killed by Stifle (they'll cast it on any creature's trigger)
Killed by creature removal (they'll cast it when the Kiki-Jiki trigger is on the stack)
Involves attack phase
Thermopod, Emrakul, and Kumano
Pros:
Infinite damage
Doesn't involve attack phase
Not killed by creature removal (sac Thermopod to itself in response, mill Emrakul, get Narcomoebas, Dread Return Thermopod, repeat--with Kumano, activate abilities in response--use 3 Dread Returns to ensure going off in the face of removal)
Cons:
Targets players
Killed by Stifle (they'll cast it on the first Emrakul trigger)
Necrotic Ooze, Dwarven Strike Force, Kiki-Jiki, and Mogg Fanatic
Pros:
Infinite damage
Doesn't involve attack phase
Not killed by creature removal (grant haste in response again, then combo off in their face)
Can pull it off even with two combo pieces stuck in hand (those 2 being Kiki-Jiki and Mogg Fanatic)--just discard them with the Dwarven Strike Force ability
Cons:
Targets players
Killed by Stifle (they'll cast it on the sim-Kiki-Jiki trigger)
Requires at least 1 card in hand the turn you go off
Played Matt Toepfner's deck at FNM with minor change.
Moved a Nylea's Disciple to MD, because I didn't have a 2nd Arbor Collosus. Didn't have the standard SB, so threw together what I had. Only things I used were the Hornet's Nest and 2nd Hornet Queen with the Bow coming in every so often.
Nylea's Disciple MD was a choice because there are multiple people at my store that break out Deflecting Palms when they see combo. Thought process is to combo off, then when you have infinite mana you bounce the Disciple to get 10,000 life and only attack with 100/100 creatures. It does them no good to palm you since you have an order of magnitude better life. Sure you could just bounce that one that they target, but I like giving them the opportunity to see that I thought of their countermove beforehand. And the aggro in my store makes a single disciple not a bad idea MD.
Went 4-1 But drew last round to come in 2nd.
Round 1: Delver Chromatacore
Game 1: I have forest, mountain and 3x nykthos as my lands, with everything costing 2GG. Scooped around turn 8. Had no idea what the guy was playing, he durdled that much.
Game 2: Good mana, but light on gas. He finally shows me what his deck does: Soulflayer delving Chromoatacore and a bunch of utility creatures to Voltron out a big guy. Was wishing I didn't take out my Arbor Collossus, but then played a hornet queen. All of those deathtouchers have to die in order to kill the 4/4 doublestriker, but it was worth it. He can't rebuild, and I combo out 2 turns later.
Game 3: He durdles, I have a T3 Polukranos.
Round 2: Azban Midrange.
Game 1: Hand had Voyager Satyr and Mystic with genesis hydra in hand, curve out perfectly. I don't combo, but a 11/11 genesis hydra to supplement a 4/4 genesis hydra tends to take the game over.
Game 2: Combo out when he had lethal on the board for the counterswing. I love when azban thinks the game is over when they have a single attack left and they are at 30 life.
Round 3: Mardu
Game 1: Genesis Hydra for 4 gets me a ascendency when I have Eidelion out. The card advantage buries him, despite him trying to kill things left and right.
Game 2: His mana screws him, and I have T6 10/10 genesis hydra. Unfortunately for him, I found a Nylea and his tokens don't chump block that well anymore.
Round 4: Siege Rhinos galore
Game 1: I don't combo, but make tons of mana life and cards via the double Coursier, eidelon and satyr with a nykuthos. He burned an utter end to kill my satyr to make my mana mortal, and then drew another at wrong time. The X=16 was able to find an ascendency, and went to game 2.
Game 2: His draws were a little weak, so I played it slow and comboed oout around T9-10. I like that playstyle, build devotion and clog up the board. Let the other guy think he's won it tap all the mana to try and kill us quick, then drop ascendancy and satyrs at once to fire off a single genesis hydra and find the last combo piece you need.
Round 5: B/W ????
I don't have a good name for this deck, but it has hero's downfall and utter end for removal along with Seeker of the way and other smallish creatures. Used Sorin and Citidel Siege to trigger prowess and make Seeker ungodly. Same thing with Mardu Strike Leader and a few manifest cards.
Game 1: I stumble on mana, he has seeker and Citadel Siege. His removal keeps me in check, and the game is over somewhat quickly.
Game 2: Sided in Hornet Nest, and he thoughtseizes it. I combo off this game after grinding a long time.
Game 3: I get stomped.Mardu Strike Leader keeps making tokens, but he was using citadel siege to make it and other tokens formidable.
All in all, I love the deck. I'm a combo player at heart, but I would not change this to the Simic or R/G versions people talk about. If I wanted a fragile combo that looks cool but is easily disruptable, I'd be using Jeskai ascendency. I played all the versions of that, and believe that there's a version of that that is the combo player's wet dream. But our midrange strategy with occasional combo win is perfect for the current meta and you're an idiot to try and force temur ascendency to be the combo focused ascendency. That job is already taken.
Pretty sure people have already stated the obvious: between prowess and Jeskai Ascendency, a 1 mana cantrip will not be printed in Fate Reforged or in Dragons of Tarkir. They may not print one in 'Blood' and to be honest, the first time they may print a quicken type card (U, small effect and cantrip) will be 'Sweat' so that Prowess and Jeskai Ascendency will warp the format and then immediately rotate out of being awesome shortly after people figure out what the 'correct' configuration of the combo deck will be like when 'Tears' comes out.
But the OP's question was quicken type card, or small filtration effect. We may get a quicken card around Jan 16, but we will never get another filtration effect in Standard. The R&D department has done everything they can to reduce combo to be as dead as land destruction, but have also stated via bannings that low cost cantrips make Modern too combo-ey and therefore make sure that these cards don't get printed.
Ponder and preordain have been relegated to Legacy, leaving us Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand as the only filtration cantrips that immediately give the card to you. They could printed either of these in 'Blood' or more likely 'Sweat' or a 'half-preordain' and that's pretty much it. No other 1 mana filtration cards will EVER be printed.
I ran this about 4-5 months after the initial deck tech... I swapped out the gut shots for surgical extractions and slid around the numbers a bit to allow some snapcasters. Since I was on the extraction plan, I also had 2-3x wasteland to kill and extract duals for greedy mana bases.
It was comparable to RUG delver at the time, with deaths shadow playing the role of goyf. This archetype probably needs dusting off with TC and the power of extracting the few wincins prevelent in legacy currently..
Going to play sets of force flusterstorm, thoughtseizes extractions and snapcasters with a few IoK and extirpates thrown was enough for feline to break out in hives when I played her with high tide.
My sb had bitterblossom and baby jace to help versus miracles, and some duresses and IoK to reconfigure the hand hate, and extirpate and additional flusterstorm to finish combo.
Migt also want to look at using dismember rather than snuff out so you can moderate the lifeloss when needed. I never had dark confidents, nor erayo that people thought it should have. My SB was tailored towards what I knew the shop had, so build your own.
Greg Hatch had an artificer's intuition combo that uses the inuition to find top, locket of yesteryear, and altar to win...
His deck is a very unusal deck, but you can steal the intuition idea.
4 artifacts in hand and 1UUUUU availible is a killshot:
U, discard artifact #1 to search for locket of yesteryear.
U, discard artifact #2 to search for top #1
U, discard top #1 to search for top #2.
U, discard artifact #3 to search for altar.
U, discard artifact #4 to find top #3.
1, play locket. Top #1 in gy means Top #2&3 are free.
1, play altar. Cycle tops for free, and kill for the win.
But the kicker is that each activation of artificers intuition allows you to see a new 3 cards with top, allowing you to find additional artifacts, or other parts of the combo. The intuition activations can be spaced apart as well.
Played a version of this last night at FNM, got a 3-1.
In regards to the manabase, I used playsets of Monastery and Frontier, with 9 fetches (4 Foothills, 2 Windswepth, 3 Flooded Strand) and 6 Basics, (2 Forest, 2 Island, Mountain, Plains)
The fetches helped the DTT, and a single point of lifeloss was better than turn after turn of lifeloss like the MC would have given me. I don't think I'll be going to MC anytime soon.
I comboed in low single digit life each game, MC would have killed me.
I traded them away at the lowest they ever were, and now my mind has that pegged as its price memory...
Can I afford it? Probably could get them 1 per paycheck and have the set done in 2 months. But my issue is that Nobles can be staples, but I don't usually play decks they are staples in. I'm not really a midrange type of guy, so investig significant discretionary money towards something that is usable in so few applications is giving me pause.
Hence why I'm asking if there's a better way. Or probably to be more accurate, the least crappy way.
I traded away my Hierarches back in standard, and have been refusing to get them back on principle now.
I'd like to try infect, and want to know what's the best route of constructing the deck.
Do you play the Wild Defiance game, or just sub in Cathedral of War in place of the Hierarchs? Or is the card just impossible to substitute for, and I should just play without it?
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
4 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Forest
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Cinder Glade
1 Lumbering Falls
I replaced 1x Mountain with Cinder Glade, and same for 1x of my flex spots.
The lumbering falls I want to actually try and play a few games where I actually see the danged thing before I try out either Temple of Mystery (If I don't mind Lumbering Falls coming into play tapped) or Loothouse (if I do hate the CIPT).
Most people agree to the following as the default 25 land mana base:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
4 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Forest
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Flex Spot
For those Flex Slots, I've seen extra basic forest/island, Desolate Lighthouse, Flooded Grove, Temple of Mystery, Yavimaya Coast and extra Breeding Pool.
In those flex spots I've noticed a few trends:
Most times I see someone use the Loothouse, the extra land tends to be Flooded grove or Breeding Pool or Yavimaya Coast. This seems to try and preserve the no ETB tapped lands as much as possible.
Most of the times I saw Temple was in Courser of Kruphix Builds, or those builds using Serum Visions. I don't know if this was to maximize the finding of Scapeshift (which seems good considering its kinda sorta our wincon) or because the opeing of 1st turn Temple going into a 2nd turn Tapped Land into Serum Visions start was the prefered start.
But ultimately we want to be able to cast all our spells under Blood Moon, meaning the 3x Islands and 2x Forest are set as never to be touched. I've heard of folks replacing 1x or 2x basic mountains for Cinder Glade, which makes a certain amount of sense. The rest of the cards seem nailed down too, minus shaving a Misty (which could have been a budget decision).
So where does Lumbering Falls come into this discussion? It would obviously be one of those flex spots, similar to Temple of Mystery. But is the Hexproof 3/3 worth over a one-time Scry 1?
When is it permissible to have ETB Tapped lands in your deck, is it a Serum Visions only deck construction idea?
Where do we plug Cinder Glade into the deck, replace a mountain or both? Use it in the flex spots as extra potential damage?
When do you use the Loothouse?
Physically seeing the cards as mana helps a lot of people follow the complex lines of play.
I tried mono-u tron and 4c Gifts, but it always felt like I was 2 seconds from losing the game...
Was thinking of UW control, but none of the lists seem that powerful...
I've got most of modern staples with exception of noble hierarch, goyf, bob, and 2x cryptic command...
What do you think is the right meta call?
Unfortunately it was UR, and used Ral Zarek as his untapping engine / wincon.
The masterminds aren't nearly as good as you think. They are the definition of win-more. I recommend that you switch it with Boomarang. It has the opportunity bounce Stasis, but can also be used to keep yourself from dying or demoralize the opponent who just tapped out for a threat only to have it returned.
Also look for misdirection or divert to change targets of Abrupt decay. And you'd be better served with spell pierce than most of your counterspells.
Food for though.
People often throw out different kill combinations that have their ups and downs.
You forgot to have a Grand Abolisher in your MD so it gives you pseudo Xantid Swarm
The problem with it is that you still lose to a stifle/trickbind on the inital AoGR trigger. I'll try and find a post that outlines the different kill conditions, and edit it in here. Its a good read.
EDIT: Here you go...
1 Mountain
6 Forest
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Frontier Bivouac
4 Temur Sabertooth
4 Genesis Hydra
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Arbor Colossus
1 Nylea's Disciple
2 Boon Satyr
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
4 Voyaging Satyr
2 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Elvish Mystic
1 Hornet Queen
1 Whisperwood Elemental
4 Hornet Nest
3 Nylea's Disciple
3 Ranger's Guile
1 Hornet Queen
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Bow of Nylea
Played Matt Toepfner's deck at FNM with minor change.
Moved a Nylea's Disciple to MD, because I didn't have a 2nd Arbor Collosus. Didn't have the standard SB, so threw together what I had. Only things I used were the Hornet's Nest and 2nd Hornet Queen with the Bow coming in every so often.
Nylea's Disciple MD was a choice because there are multiple people at my store that break out Deflecting Palms when they see combo. Thought process is to combo off, then when you have infinite mana you bounce the Disciple to get 10,000 life and only attack with 100/100 creatures. It does them no good to palm you since you have an order of magnitude better life. Sure you could just bounce that one that they target, but I like giving them the opportunity to see that I thought of their countermove beforehand. And the aggro in my store makes a single disciple not a bad idea MD.
Went 4-1 But drew last round to come in 2nd.
Round 1: Delver Chromatacore
Game 1: I have forest, mountain and 3x nykthos as my lands, with everything costing 2GG. Scooped around turn 8. Had no idea what the guy was playing, he durdled that much.
Game 2: Good mana, but light on gas. He finally shows me what his deck does: Soulflayer delving Chromoatacore and a bunch of utility creatures to Voltron out a big guy. Was wishing I didn't take out my Arbor Collossus, but then played a hornet queen. All of those deathtouchers have to die in order to kill the 4/4 doublestriker, but it was worth it. He can't rebuild, and I combo out 2 turns later.
Game 3: He durdles, I have a T3 Polukranos.
Round 2: Azban Midrange.
Game 1: Hand had Voyager Satyr and Mystic with genesis hydra in hand, curve out perfectly. I don't combo, but a 11/11 genesis hydra to supplement a 4/4 genesis hydra tends to take the game over.
Game 2: Combo out when he had lethal on the board for the counterswing. I love when azban thinks the game is over when they have a single attack left and they are at 30 life.
Round 3: Mardu
Game 1: Genesis Hydra for 4 gets me a ascendency when I have Eidelion out. The card advantage buries him, despite him trying to kill things left and right.
Game 2: His mana screws him, and I have T6 10/10 genesis hydra. Unfortunately for him, I found a Nylea and his tokens don't chump block that well anymore.
Round 4: Siege Rhinos galore
Game 1: I don't combo, but make tons of mana life and cards via the double Coursier, eidelon and satyr with a nykuthos. He burned an utter end to kill my satyr to make my mana mortal, and then drew another at wrong time. The X=16 was able to find an ascendency, and went to game 2.
Game 2: His draws were a little weak, so I played it slow and comboed oout around T9-10. I like that playstyle, build devotion and clog up the board. Let the other guy think he's won it tap all the mana to try and kill us quick, then drop ascendancy and satyrs at once to fire off a single genesis hydra and find the last combo piece you need.
Round 5: B/W ????
I don't have a good name for this deck, but it has hero's downfall and utter end for removal along with Seeker of the way and other smallish creatures. Used Sorin and Citidel Siege to trigger prowess and make Seeker ungodly. Same thing with Mardu Strike Leader and a few manifest cards.
Game 1: I stumble on mana, he has seeker and Citadel Siege. His removal keeps me in check, and the game is over somewhat quickly.
Game 2: Sided in Hornet Nest, and he thoughtseizes it. I combo off this game after grinding a long time.
Game 3: I get stomped.Mardu Strike Leader keeps making tokens, but he was using citadel siege to make it and other tokens formidable.
All in all, I love the deck. I'm a combo player at heart, but I would not change this to the Simic or R/G versions people talk about. If I wanted a fragile combo that looks cool but is easily disruptable, I'd be using Jeskai ascendency. I played all the versions of that, and believe that there's a version of that that is the combo player's wet dream. But our midrange strategy with occasional combo win is perfect for the current meta and you're an idiot to try and force temur ascendency to be the combo focused ascendency. That job is already taken.
But the OP's question was quicken type card, or small filtration effect. We may get a quicken card around Jan 16, but we will never get another filtration effect in Standard. The R&D department has done everything they can to reduce combo to be as dead as land destruction, but have also stated via bannings that low cost cantrips make Modern too combo-ey and therefore make sure that these cards don't get printed.
Ponder and preordain have been relegated to Legacy, leaving us Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand as the only filtration cantrips that immediately give the card to you. They could printed either of these in 'Blood' or more likely 'Sweat' or a 'half-preordain' and that's pretty much it. No other 1 mana filtration cards will EVER be printed.
It was comparable to RUG delver at the time, with deaths shadow playing the role of goyf. This archetype probably needs dusting off with TC and the power of extracting the few wincins prevelent in legacy currently..
Going to play sets of force flusterstorm, thoughtseizes extractions and snapcasters with a few IoK and extirpates thrown was enough for feline to break out in hives when I played her with high tide.
My sb had bitterblossom and baby jace to help versus miracles, and some duresses and IoK to reconfigure the hand hate, and extirpate and additional flusterstorm to finish combo.
Migt also want to look at using dismember rather than snuff out so you can moderate the lifeloss when needed. I never had dark confidents, nor erayo that people thought it should have. My SB was tailored towards what I knew the shop had, so build your own.
His deck is a very unusal deck, but you can steal the intuition idea.
4 artifacts in hand and 1UUUUU availible is a killshot:
U, discard artifact #1 to search for locket of yesteryear.
U, discard artifact #2 to search for top #1
U, discard top #1 to search for top #2.
U, discard artifact #3 to search for altar.
U, discard artifact #4 to find top #3.
1, play locket. Top #1 in gy means Top #2&3 are free.
1, play altar. Cycle tops for free, and kill for the win.
But the kicker is that each activation of artificers intuition allows you to see a new 3 cards with top, allowing you to find additional artifacts, or other parts of the combo. The intuition activations can be spaced apart as well.
In regards to the manabase, I used playsets of Monastery and Frontier, with 9 fetches (4 Foothills, 2 Windswepth, 3 Flooded Strand) and 6 Basics, (2 Forest, 2 Island, Mountain, Plains)
The fetches helped the DTT, and a single point of lifeloss was better than turn after turn of lifeloss like the MC would have given me. I don't think I'll be going to MC anytime soon.
I comboed in low single digit life each game, MC would have killed me.
I don't know if it was SB or MD but Vedalken Shackles, but I remember that too.