I am curious what effect (if any) you have seen/experienced since SCG quit actively supporting Legacy? What long term effects do you expect? Will prices on staples come down? Will local scenes become more diverse and less reliance on net-decking? Will innovations to the format come at a slower clip in the future?
I think I know the answer to this, but I am not 100 percent sure .
I have built one of those Burning Reanimator decks for legacy. There have been a few times while Goldfishing that I have drawn more cards than I have in my deck DURING MY TURN and before the attack.a player does not lose from being decked until their next upkeep on the draw step? Right? Wrong?
Excellent reply, Mondu. I was unaware that SCG allowed proxies in their Vintage tourneys. How did that work? Some local shops were running proxy Vintage and Legacy tournaments until WOTC/DCI put out the hard statement on them a year or so ago. I am all in favor of proxies for Vintage. It seems pretty interesting as a format, actually. I think Jaco's unpowered Eldrazi deck has a lot of people taking a fresh look at the format.
I was not around for SCG's time with Vintage (the Power 9 series, I think it was called), so maybe someone can fill me in if I am wrong or off base.
From my understanding SCG pushed Vintage for a number of years and then dropped it and moved on to Legacy. Arguably, they had helped to inflate prices and once vintage became out of reach for average players because of price and scarcity, they moved on to Legacy. The trend repeated itself- push the format for a few years, make a lot of money, and then once card prices got out of reach for average players they drop the format and move on to the next thing (in this case Modern).
Am I correct here? I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just trying to establish if this is the actual trend. If so, we can expect the same with Modern and what comes next. Yes? No?
Hello. I want to offer my ten cents and perspective on Legacy without dual lands.
I used to own a full playset plus of the duals. When the price began to rise to insane levels and I hit some financial hard times, I sold all of them all.
Locally, a Legacy game night is the I only Magic night that works for me, so I built my old decks without duals and have been playing successfully and competitively with a combination of basics, fetch lands, shocks, and M10 tap lands.
I will concede on the optimization argument that with duals legacy is better, but only slightly and in very specific situations. but legacy can be played competitively and successfully without duals.
Some decks will be off limits, namely Delver and Zoo (though I think Zoo is out of vogue, currently).
Decks that can be successfully built and played without duals include Merfolk, Reanimator (U and R variants), MUD, Eldrazi, Miracles, High Tide, RDW, and Stone/Death blade. I am going to begin experimenting with Maverick soon.
I write all of this to encourage current and would be legacy players to look at this as an ACCESSIBLE format (not the inaccessible format that so many believe it to be) with decks that can be built at many different price points and in many different playstyles.
People often talk about how printing certain cards (ie the Power 9, Tarmogoyf) was a "mistake" as the cards were somehow too strong or imbalanced. I regularly hear people talk about how spells (ie sorceries, instants, interrupts) from the early days of Magic were "overpowered" compared to the creatures that were printed, but one thing that I don't hear people talk about is how many of the creature cards were "mistakes". They were mistakes in that they were too weak to be viable or offered unrealitic or unnecessary burdens on players.
As an example, I offer Force of Nature, Lord of the Pit, Serendib Djinnand Rock Hydra as specific examples of cards that shouldn't have had the upkeep costs associated with them. I also question the upkeep costs of Ernham Djinn and Junun Efreet as being unrealistic upkeep costs. Even more reasonable upkeep costs as found on Juzam Djinn and Serendib Efreet seem unnecessary. Ydwen Efreet and Mijae Djinn are other examples of cards that should be playable, but are unplayable due to the various tags on them.
All of those cards had incredible artwork. The first time that I ever saw a Force of Nature for sale, I immediately fell in love with the card due to it's 8/8 trampling and it's amazing artwork.
For the most part, all of the cards that I listed above (and others, ie Breeding Pit) are outclassed in casual gaming. In the case of Force of Nature, Terra Stomper is better from a play value and any number of X casting cost Hydra's outclass Rock Hydra. However, for as good as the new cards are, they can't beat the artwork and the "magical feel" of those early cards.
Because those great cards are outclassed by today's standards, I wonder if the upkeep costs associated with them should be ignored entirely? So, for example, if you cast Force of Nature, you just cast it and ignore that archaic upkeep cost of 4 green per turn. A 7/7 flying, trampling Lord of the Pit doesn't need any upkeep of a sacrificed creature each turn, yes? Another example, Demonic Hordes are outclassed by Helldozer.
But in almost every example, I'd rather play the old card over the new one. So, should casual players, Commander players, and others ignore those upkeep costs? Does anyone play in a playgroup or with house rules that ignores these upkeep costs?
Here is one example of a really cool Jace, the Mind Sculptor that I have run across. Obviously, no one would think this card was real. But it is still beyond cool. I'd love to drop a high quality proxy of this JTMS down in a tournament.
So I contacted a local store that allows full proxies for their Legacy tournaments to get the scoop. This particular stores requires that proxies be printed and in color- no black and white prints or a plains card with "Jace the Mind Sculptor" written on it won't work. I haven't played at this particular shop yet, but I plan on it soon.
This interaction got me to thinking..... What do shops and players stand to benefit by allowing proxies (fake cards) in tournaments?
From a player perspective, it allows more people to enter the tournament and because more people can enter the prize payout will be larger. Also, from a player perspective there are no limitations to deckbuilding.
From a store's perspective, I would argue that a store will benefit from allowing proxies. To begin, by allowing proxy Legacy tournaments, stores would most likely sell more Legacy staples and Legacy cards. Sure, a player could go out and just proxy an entire deck, but from my experience the use of proxies (fake cards) would be used when price or scarcity are too prohibitive in acquiring the needed/desired cards. So while a player might be prone to proxy a Jace, Liliana, Dual land, or Tarmogoyf in a Legacy deck, the more reasonably priced cards they would likely desire to have the real thing. It is, afterall, called cardboard crack. Also, by hosting proxy Legal tournaments, the general interest and participation in the format will grow. Stronger player bases would likely be created and everyday MTG sales would increase at the store that allows proxies versus the one that doesn't- in my experience the better a store does with it's tournament scene, the better they do with card sales as well. Also, many players (younger players especially) would likely be prone to proxy expensive and hard to find cards when they are outside of their reach, however as they age and their disposable income goes up the likelihood that they will wind up buying those rare and expensive cards increases.
So by allowing fake cards, in my theory, both the players win and the stores win. More players, bigger winner payouts, and unlimited deck building options for players. Increased card sales and a larger and more dedicated group of players for stores.
The only problem with the high quality proxies and fakes being produced in China, people's homes, and elsewhere is the threat that they pose to collections values. As it stands now, even the best "proxies" that I have seen (the ones that will slide by everyone when sleeved) are easy to detect outside of sleeves.
I have dug further and further into the proxy situation and I have come to understand that StarcityGames used to run Vintage tournaments that they allowed proxies in. From what I can gather, that was the event that (to some extent) legitimized proxies in the Vintage community and which is now making it's way to the Legacy community.
My interest is in the game of Magic. I used to be interested in the value of my collection, but that interest has basically become extinct over the last year. I am coming into contact with more and more proxies and "fake cards" from China and elsewhere that are just amazing. Some of these feature digitally altered cards. Some are printouts of the online Magic Power 9 and Dual Lands which are foiled and have alternate art so that no one will think they are real. Some are Chinese proxies that look nearly identical to the real thing (minus the texture of the card or sometimes having colors that are slightly off). In the end, I don't care if someone is playing with real cards, proxies, or fakes. I do not buy or trade with individuals. My interest is solely on the game. If a 15 year old kid can't afford a Legacy or Vintage deck, but can come up with a nice mix of cool looking proxies and real cards mixed together. Cool, let's play Magic. If a 40 year old doesn't want to play with his real dual lands because the price has skyrocketed, but he will play with some Chinese proxies that look legit. Cool, let's play Magic.
In the end, for me, this is about a game. A game I want to play. I don't want to be restricted by a cards rarity, scarcity, or value. I don't want to be restricted by the horrible No Reprint List- a list that did nothing but stifle the game and put a severe handicap on both Vintage and Legacy as formats.
For me, it's just about the game.
I would be the first to stand up and say that attempting to sell fake cards as the real thing is wrong, but if someone wants to play with those cool looking fake cards even in a sanctioned tournament (hey, it might be against WOTC's rules, but they have no idea what is being played at the tournaments! All they get is a computer data entry showing who played and who won and lost. The validity of the cards in the decks is beyond their scope of information.), I'm 100% cool. If someone beats me playing with fake cards, then they were the better player, had better luck, or perhaps just a better matchup that I or my deck had.
It's a matter of preference, I suppose, but ultimately, especially in the coming years, I think that players will want to play with proxies and fakes more and more (especially in lieu of escalating prices and the scarcity of some cards) and I think that the stores that allow proxies in their tournaments will see larger turnouts, larger and more dedicated player bases, and increased sales of real Magic cards.
Every Vintage Magic tournament that I am aware of currently allows proxy cards. Proxies are used regularly and knowingly in EDH/Commander, 5-Color, and some of the other "casual", alternate formats. I know of local Legacy scenes that have now jumped on board and allow unlimited proxies.
I think you misunderstand vintage.
Vintage allows proxies. THEY DO NOT allow counterfeits.
There's a biiiiig difference. Proxies are basically a card (preferably a revised plains, an erased cards, or a card with similar artwork) with the word "Black Lotus" written on it with a pen.
Perhaps the Legacy and Vintage tournaments that you are aware of that allow "proxies" have different rules than the ones that I am aware of. The ones that I am aware of actually frown upon just writing Black Lotus (for example) across a plains. They prefer and want you to have the best quality image of the real card. It doesn't matter if it is from a Chinese "proxy" or printed off your computer. Same for the Legacy tourneys that I am aware of. WOTC might make the rules that only real cards are allowed in officially sanctioned tourneys, but if the tournament organizer, place of business, and other players are all cool with high quality "proxies" (counterfeits or fakes, if you prefer) being allowed and that having that allowance boosts the number of people playing in a tournament and the payouts that the players get as a result of playing, WOTC will never be any wiser. They don't, afterall, have any hard way to confirm that all the cards in sanctioned tourneys are real.
Otherwise, interesting replies.
One thing I will ad regarding the Chinese "proxies" that I have been shown. I placed a dozen or so of them in with a handful of other Magic cards and shuffled them (unsleeved) together. I closed my eyes and proceeded to determine whether the cards were real or fake just based on feel as quickly as I could- literally just gripping the card between my fingers for a moment and tossing them into either a real or fake pile. With my eyes closed, I was able to correctly pick out every real card and every fake card. Again, the technology isn't perfect (at least from the cards I've seen) and I don't see any danger currently in a serious Magic player, dealer, or collector trading for or buying fakes, but in sleeves these are good and (except for the ones that are off color) could easily pass as legit.
Back to the other thread that I referenced, I had always assumed that when deck checks were done by a judge that they would take all the cards out of the sleeves and make sure they were legit. I suppose there are two problems with attempting to do that- 1. It would take a lot more time to do a deck check that way. 2. The risk of damaging real cards (especially valuable cards) would be increased- even the oils and dirt particles from ones fingers could pose a threat to the integrity and quality of old, valuable cards. For players that double sleeve their cards, the headache and time necessary to do a deck check in that manner would be even more demanding.
I posted a question a week or so ago regarding deck checks at high level tournaments (inquiry what judges check on when doing a deck check) a week or two ago. I posted that question after encountering some incredibly high quality "proxies" from China. I have now encountered even more of these "proxies" over the past week. The quality of the "proxies" is incredibly high and the only distinguishing feature between them and real cards is that the cards have a glossier finish to them and some (not all, SOME) of the cards show variations in color. In sleeves, however, the cards are indistinguishable from the real thing. They are so nice that some "proxies" were sleeved and mixed in with a deck, the deck was given to me to peruse (in the sleeves), and I was unable to distinguish the real cards from the "proxies". This coupled with watching some videos on YouTube of people making actual proxies (nothing that would ever pass for the real thing, not because the quality is bad, but because the art is different) got me to thinking the following....
There are people at home all across the world that can make their own Magic "proxies". You can easily buy "proxies" from China. These "proxies", especially when sleeved, are nearly identical to the real thing. At some point someone is going to perfect the art and real cards will be absolutely indistinguishable from "proxies". However, in the meantime, I have come to believe 100% that there are fakes, "proxies", and forgeries of one stripe or another being played with at FNMs, at local Legacy and Modern tournies, at SCG and other higher level events, and likely even on the Pro Tour.
How often have you shown up to an FNM on the day of a release only to find that one of your opponents already has every single copy in their deck of some highly sought after Mythic Rare from the new set? There is a finite number of real, old school dual lands, but how is it that more and more people are showing up to play Legacy with all the required duals and everything else necessary to play?
I have come to believe that fake cards are everywhere. They might not be traded and sold en masse yet, because the technology isn't quite there (at least of the ones that I've known have been proxies), but in sleeves where they are virtually indecipherable from the real thing?
So what do you think? Have you ever encountered someone in a tournament that you believe or suspect was playing with fakes? Has anyone ever been busted? How often have you had a deck check performed against you? Anyone care to admit ever having played with known fakes? Have you ever played or owned a card that you believed to be real and only later realized (perhaps when trading it or selling it to someone) that it was a fake?
In all my years of playing Magic I have only been deck checked one time. In the past I have played with (in black backed sleeves) Collector's and International Edition cards whose corners had been rounded- they weren't rebacked, they still had the gold CE/IE borders, but with the black sleeves no one had a clue. This was in a low level local tournament.
Every Vintage Magic tournament that I am aware of currently allows proxy cards. Proxies are used regularly and knowingly in EDH/Commander, 5-Color, and some of the other "casual", alternate formats. I know of local Legacy scenes that have now jumped on board and allow unlimited proxies.
In my view, WOTC has specifically facilitated this problem with the Reserved List, but we are now seeing cards that are not on the reserved list "proxied". Everything from Tarmogoyf and Jace the Mind Sculptor to Splinter Twin and Ugin the Spirit Dragon and all Mythics and Rares and a lot of uncommons and commons in between.
If a card reaches a high price, why wouldn't one look for a cheaper option?
What is more important? The game or one's collection value?
And I will leave you with one more thought....
If the "fake" is as good as the real thing... Is it really a "fake"?
Tossing a couple cards out for discussion that I think would be interesting to see legalized in Legacy-- or at the very least given a trial run.
1. Mishra's Workshop. This card has only one deck that it can realistically go in-- MUD. MUD is a fringe deck that occasionally posts good results. The deck is fringe with lands that produce two mana and a number of other mana producers (ie Mox Opal, Grim Monolith). Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see Mishra's Workshop being legalized breaking or warping the format. If anything, legalizing Mishra's Workshop will just open up MUD to be a bit more legit contender.
2. Sol Ring. Legacy, by and large, relies on spells that cost three or less and many of the spells are a bit color intensive and require at least two mana of a specific color to be used to cast it (ie Liliana of the Veil, Baleful Strix, True Name Nemesis). Like Workshop above, I don't see Sol Ring being legalized as a format warping card. It would be great in a MUD deck, but beyond that where would it fit or warp the format?
Interested to read what others think about those two cards. Again, I don't think either would warp or severely alter the format, but they could both make MUD a bit less fringe and more of a competitive deck.
My homebrew/variant format is designed to start all players on equal footing- the only variance being the luck of the draw and one's play skill level.
A communal deck is built by the owner. There are no limits or restrictions to what goes into a deck, however all five colors (as well as artifacts, gold cards, and colorless cards) should be represented. The deck can be as big or small as one desires, but 50 cards or so for each player involved in the game would be a nice number.
Much like the Cube format, one of the perks of this format is that only one community deck can be drawn from. Other players don't have to have their own decks with them (they wouldn't need them if they had them), in fact they don't even have to own their own cards!
Because this is a casual format, I believe that more life than the normal 20 should be the start point. 40 life or more is ideal as this is a community game meant to be played and experienced by friends.
All normal Magic game rules apply, however these are the alterations from traditional Magic.
There are no mulligans. Players keep what they draw.
If the entire communal deck is exhausted, the graveyard is shuffled up and replaced fresh.
The game ends only when all players have died. When a player dies, his cards in play and his hand are all placed into the graveyard.
In addition to the starting 7 cards in each player's hand at the start of the game, each player also begins play with two additional "packs" of cards.
LAND PACK- The first pack is a five card pack consisting of one forest, one plains, one swamp, one island, and one mountain. These five cards are shuffled and placed face down at the start of the game. During each of the player's first five turns, they flip the top card from their land pack onto the battlefield. This does not count towards their one land drop per turn. This accelerates one's mana count, helps prevent mana screw, and enables players to play large spells sooner than later.
SPELL PACK- Each player also starts the game with a spell pack. This spell pack should consist of 7 classic and functional cards. Examples of cards that should/could be included are Desert Twister (destroy any card in play), Terror (spot removal), Disenchant (enchantment/artifact removal), Counterspell (counter target spell), Fissure (destroy target creature or land), Stream of Life (life gain), Braingeyser (card draw), and Wrath of God (board wipe). How one designs the spell pack is a matter of choice, however all five colors should have a card represented in the spell pack and each player's spell pack should be identical to everyone else's. The spell pack gives players options to take out nuisance creatures, lands, or other permanents, counter a spell, gain life, wipe the board, or things that otherwise should help keep the game in check and serve to lengthen the game. Cards from the spell pack can be played at anytime, they can be played only one time, they don't count towards the seven card limit in one's hand, and once a card is played from a spell pack it should be removed from the game. I would advise against direct damage spells (ie Fireball) from being included in the spell pack as the spell pack is not intended to outright eliminate opponents, but rather enhance game play and give players options.
CHAOS STACK- The Chaos Stack is a separate pack of cards that affects all players and game play. It should consist of 20 to 30 cards. The cards should be shuffled and placed in a face down stack. Whichever player starts the game by going first must flip the top card of the chaos stack at the beginning of his or her turn. Whatever card is flipped will affect game play for the entirety of each player's turn. When it gets back to the first player, he flips the next card over which nullifies the previous card. For example, on the first turn a Mana Flare might be flipped. As such, each player's land produces twice as much mana on that turn. On the second turn a Howling Mine might be flipped. The Howling Mine negates the Mana Flare and now each player draws an additional card on their draw step. "World" enchantments and artifacts such as Howling Mine and Mana Flare are ideal for this. Sorcery cards can also be placed in the Chaos Stack, however unlike enchantment or artifacts, they only happen one time- when they are initially flipped. Sorcery cards that would be ideal for the Chaos Stack include Warp World, Wrath of God, and Balance. If the game lasts long enough and the entire Chaos Stack is exhausted, it is shuffled back up, and the process begins again.
My opinion on proxies has changed over the years. I used to be against them feeling that you should own and play with the real cards. As time has gone on and the manner that the Reserve List has made it incredibly difficult to find many cards and the price is even more oppressive than finding them, I am fine with them. I have seen Vintage and Legacy thrive locally since some local shops have begun allowing unlimited proxies for use in play. Would I rather have an option to play Legacy regularly even if it means playing against proxied cards and decks? Or would I rather not have the option to play Legacy regularly because the obscurity of cards and price keeps so many people from playing? For me, in the end, it is about the GAME of Magic. Proxies, even high quality proxies, don't adversely affect the prices of collections, but they open up the game to many people who otherwise couldn't play. All that being said, if someone proxies a card they should strive to get the best proxy that they can. If you are going to proxy Tundras and Underground Seas, for example, at the least print off some pictures of those cards from the net and tape them to a basic land- don't just write "Tundra. Tap for U or W." on the card.
I don't know if I am TC (not sure what that means), but no, I am not playing with fake cards. I am only a casual player who hits up FNM a few times a month and plays an SCG event every year or two. I have, however, been watching videos of MTG Lion on YouTube (who obsesses over forgeries coming in from China) and recently saw some of these forgeries in person. PRISTINE condition Mana Drains. The only thing that cued me off as to the fact that they were fake was how PRISTINE the cards were.... An entire playset of PRISTINE Mana Drains. Every old school card worth playing has play wear.
I have built one of those Burning Reanimator decks for legacy. There have been a few times while Goldfishing that I have drawn more cards than I have in my deck DURING MY TURN and before the attack.a player does not lose from being decked until their next upkeep on the draw step? Right? Wrong?
From my understanding SCG pushed Vintage for a number of years and then dropped it and moved on to Legacy. Arguably, they had helped to inflate prices and once vintage became out of reach for average players because of price and scarcity, they moved on to Legacy. The trend repeated itself- push the format for a few years, make a lot of money, and then once card prices got out of reach for average players they drop the format and move on to the next thing (in this case Modern).
Am I correct here? I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just trying to establish if this is the actual trend. If so, we can expect the same with Modern and what comes next. Yes? No?
I used to own a full playset plus of the duals. When the price began to rise to insane levels and I hit some financial hard times, I sold all of them all.
Locally, a Legacy game night is the I only Magic night that works for me, so I built my old decks without duals and have been playing successfully and competitively with a combination of basics, fetch lands, shocks, and M10 tap lands.
I will concede on the optimization argument that with duals legacy is better, but only slightly and in very specific situations. but legacy can be played competitively and successfully without duals.
Some decks will be off limits, namely Delver and Zoo (though I think Zoo is out of vogue, currently).
Decks that can be successfully built and played without duals include Merfolk, Reanimator (U and R variants), MUD, Eldrazi, Miracles, High Tide, RDW, and Stone/Death blade. I am going to begin experimenting with Maverick soon.
I write all of this to encourage current and would be legacy players to look at this as an ACCESSIBLE format (not the inaccessible format that so many believe it to be) with decks that can be built at many different price points and in many different playstyles.
As an example, I offer Force of Nature, Lord of the Pit, Serendib Djinnand Rock Hydra as specific examples of cards that shouldn't have had the upkeep costs associated with them. I also question the upkeep costs of Ernham Djinn and Junun Efreet as being unrealistic upkeep costs. Even more reasonable upkeep costs as found on Juzam Djinn and Serendib Efreet seem unnecessary. Ydwen Efreet and Mijae Djinn are other examples of cards that should be playable, but are unplayable due to the various tags on them.
All of those cards had incredible artwork. The first time that I ever saw a Force of Nature for sale, I immediately fell in love with the card due to it's 8/8 trampling and it's amazing artwork.
For the most part, all of the cards that I listed above (and others, ie Breeding Pit) are outclassed in casual gaming. In the case of Force of Nature, Terra Stomper is better from a play value and any number of X casting cost Hydra's outclass Rock Hydra. However, for as good as the new cards are, they can't beat the artwork and the "magical feel" of those early cards.
Because those great cards are outclassed by today's standards, I wonder if the upkeep costs associated with them should be ignored entirely? So, for example, if you cast Force of Nature, you just cast it and ignore that archaic upkeep cost of 4 green per turn. A 7/7 flying, trampling Lord of the Pit doesn't need any upkeep of a sacrificed creature each turn, yes? Another example, Demonic Hordes are outclassed by Helldozer.
But in almost every example, I'd rather play the old card over the new one. So, should casual players, Commander players, and others ignore those upkeep costs? Does anyone play in a playgroup or with house rules that ignores these upkeep costs?
This interaction got me to thinking..... What do shops and players stand to benefit by allowing proxies (fake cards) in tournaments?
From a player perspective, it allows more people to enter the tournament and because more people can enter the prize payout will be larger. Also, from a player perspective there are no limitations to deckbuilding.
From a store's perspective, I would argue that a store will benefit from allowing proxies. To begin, by allowing proxy Legacy tournaments, stores would most likely sell more Legacy staples and Legacy cards. Sure, a player could go out and just proxy an entire deck, but from my experience the use of proxies (fake cards) would be used when price or scarcity are too prohibitive in acquiring the needed/desired cards. So while a player might be prone to proxy a Jace, Liliana, Dual land, or Tarmogoyf in a Legacy deck, the more reasonably priced cards they would likely desire to have the real thing. It is, afterall, called cardboard crack. Also, by hosting proxy Legal tournaments, the general interest and participation in the format will grow. Stronger player bases would likely be created and everyday MTG sales would increase at the store that allows proxies versus the one that doesn't- in my experience the better a store does with it's tournament scene, the better they do with card sales as well. Also, many players (younger players especially) would likely be prone to proxy expensive and hard to find cards when they are outside of their reach, however as they age and their disposable income goes up the likelihood that they will wind up buying those rare and expensive cards increases.
So by allowing fake cards, in my theory, both the players win and the stores win. More players, bigger winner payouts, and unlimited deck building options for players. Increased card sales and a larger and more dedicated group of players for stores.
The only problem with the high quality proxies and fakes being produced in China, people's homes, and elsewhere is the threat that they pose to collections values. As it stands now, even the best "proxies" that I have seen (the ones that will slide by everyone when sleeved) are easy to detect outside of sleeves.
I have dug further and further into the proxy situation and I have come to understand that StarcityGames used to run Vintage tournaments that they allowed proxies in. From what I can gather, that was the event that (to some extent) legitimized proxies in the Vintage community and which is now making it's way to the Legacy community.
My interest is in the game of Magic. I used to be interested in the value of my collection, but that interest has basically become extinct over the last year. I am coming into contact with more and more proxies and "fake cards" from China and elsewhere that are just amazing. Some of these feature digitally altered cards. Some are printouts of the online Magic Power 9 and Dual Lands which are foiled and have alternate art so that no one will think they are real. Some are Chinese proxies that look nearly identical to the real thing (minus the texture of the card or sometimes having colors that are slightly off). In the end, I don't care if someone is playing with real cards, proxies, or fakes. I do not buy or trade with individuals. My interest is solely on the game. If a 15 year old kid can't afford a Legacy or Vintage deck, but can come up with a nice mix of cool looking proxies and real cards mixed together. Cool, let's play Magic. If a 40 year old doesn't want to play with his real dual lands because the price has skyrocketed, but he will play with some Chinese proxies that look legit. Cool, let's play Magic.
In the end, for me, this is about a game. A game I want to play. I don't want to be restricted by a cards rarity, scarcity, or value. I don't want to be restricted by the horrible No Reprint List- a list that did nothing but stifle the game and put a severe handicap on both Vintage and Legacy as formats.
For me, it's just about the game.
I would be the first to stand up and say that attempting to sell fake cards as the real thing is wrong, but if someone wants to play with those cool looking fake cards even in a sanctioned tournament (hey, it might be against WOTC's rules, but they have no idea what is being played at the tournaments! All they get is a computer data entry showing who played and who won and lost. The validity of the cards in the decks is beyond their scope of information.), I'm 100% cool. If someone beats me playing with fake cards, then they were the better player, had better luck, or perhaps just a better matchup that I or my deck had.
It's a matter of preference, I suppose, but ultimately, especially in the coming years, I think that players will want to play with proxies and fakes more and more (especially in lieu of escalating prices and the scarcity of some cards) and I think that the stores that allow proxies in their tournaments will see larger turnouts, larger and more dedicated player bases, and increased sales of real Magic cards.
Perhaps the Legacy and Vintage tournaments that you are aware of that allow "proxies" have different rules than the ones that I am aware of. The ones that I am aware of actually frown upon just writing Black Lotus (for example) across a plains. They prefer and want you to have the best quality image of the real card. It doesn't matter if it is from a Chinese "proxy" or printed off your computer. Same for the Legacy tourneys that I am aware of. WOTC might make the rules that only real cards are allowed in officially sanctioned tourneys, but if the tournament organizer, place of business, and other players are all cool with high quality "proxies" (counterfeits or fakes, if you prefer) being allowed and that having that allowance boosts the number of people playing in a tournament and the payouts that the players get as a result of playing, WOTC will never be any wiser. They don't, afterall, have any hard way to confirm that all the cards in sanctioned tourneys are real.
Otherwise, interesting replies.
One thing I will ad regarding the Chinese "proxies" that I have been shown. I placed a dozen or so of them in with a handful of other Magic cards and shuffled them (unsleeved) together. I closed my eyes and proceeded to determine whether the cards were real or fake just based on feel as quickly as I could- literally just gripping the card between my fingers for a moment and tossing them into either a real or fake pile. With my eyes closed, I was able to correctly pick out every real card and every fake card. Again, the technology isn't perfect (at least from the cards I've seen) and I don't see any danger currently in a serious Magic player, dealer, or collector trading for or buying fakes, but in sleeves these are good and (except for the ones that are off color) could easily pass as legit.
Back to the other thread that I referenced, I had always assumed that when deck checks were done by a judge that they would take all the cards out of the sleeves and make sure they were legit. I suppose there are two problems with attempting to do that- 1. It would take a lot more time to do a deck check that way. 2. The risk of damaging real cards (especially valuable cards) would be increased- even the oils and dirt particles from ones fingers could pose a threat to the integrity and quality of old, valuable cards. For players that double sleeve their cards, the headache and time necessary to do a deck check in that manner would be even more demanding.
There are people at home all across the world that can make their own Magic "proxies". You can easily buy "proxies" from China. These "proxies", especially when sleeved, are nearly identical to the real thing. At some point someone is going to perfect the art and real cards will be absolutely indistinguishable from "proxies". However, in the meantime, I have come to believe 100% that there are fakes, "proxies", and forgeries of one stripe or another being played with at FNMs, at local Legacy and Modern tournies, at SCG and other higher level events, and likely even on the Pro Tour.
How often have you shown up to an FNM on the day of a release only to find that one of your opponents already has every single copy in their deck of some highly sought after Mythic Rare from the new set? There is a finite number of real, old school dual lands, but how is it that more and more people are showing up to play Legacy with all the required duals and everything else necessary to play?
I have come to believe that fake cards are everywhere. They might not be traded and sold en masse yet, because the technology isn't quite there (at least of the ones that I've known have been proxies), but in sleeves where they are virtually indecipherable from the real thing?
So what do you think? Have you ever encountered someone in a tournament that you believe or suspect was playing with fakes? Has anyone ever been busted? How often have you had a deck check performed against you? Anyone care to admit ever having played with known fakes? Have you ever played or owned a card that you believed to be real and only later realized (perhaps when trading it or selling it to someone) that it was a fake?
In all my years of playing Magic I have only been deck checked one time. In the past I have played with (in black backed sleeves) Collector's and International Edition cards whose corners had been rounded- they weren't rebacked, they still had the gold CE/IE borders, but with the black sleeves no one had a clue. This was in a low level local tournament.
Every Vintage Magic tournament that I am aware of currently allows proxy cards. Proxies are used regularly and knowingly in EDH/Commander, 5-Color, and some of the other "casual", alternate formats. I know of local Legacy scenes that have now jumped on board and allow unlimited proxies.
In my view, WOTC has specifically facilitated this problem with the Reserved List, but we are now seeing cards that are not on the reserved list "proxied". Everything from Tarmogoyf and Jace the Mind Sculptor to Splinter Twin and Ugin the Spirit Dragon and all Mythics and Rares and a lot of uncommons and commons in between.
If a card reaches a high price, why wouldn't one look for a cheaper option?
What is more important? The game or one's collection value?
And I will leave you with one more thought....
If the "fake" is as good as the real thing... Is it really a "fake"?
1. Mishra's Workshop. This card has only one deck that it can realistically go in-- MUD. MUD is a fringe deck that occasionally posts good results. The deck is fringe with lands that produce two mana and a number of other mana producers (ie Mox Opal, Grim Monolith). Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see Mishra's Workshop being legalized breaking or warping the format. If anything, legalizing Mishra's Workshop will just open up MUD to be a bit more legit contender.
2. Sol Ring. Legacy, by and large, relies on spells that cost three or less and many of the spells are a bit color intensive and require at least two mana of a specific color to be used to cast it (ie Liliana of the Veil, Baleful Strix, True Name Nemesis). Like Workshop above, I don't see Sol Ring being legalized as a format warping card. It would be great in a MUD deck, but beyond that where would it fit or warp the format?
Interested to read what others think about those two cards. Again, I don't think either would warp or severely alter the format, but they could both make MUD a bit less fringe and more of a competitive deck.
A communal deck is built by the owner. There are no limits or restrictions to what goes into a deck, however all five colors (as well as artifacts, gold cards, and colorless cards) should be represented. The deck can be as big or small as one desires, but 50 cards or so for each player involved in the game would be a nice number.
Much like the Cube format, one of the perks of this format is that only one community deck can be drawn from. Other players don't have to have their own decks with them (they wouldn't need them if they had them), in fact they don't even have to own their own cards!
Because this is a casual format, I believe that more life than the normal 20 should be the start point. 40 life or more is ideal as this is a community game meant to be played and experienced by friends.
All normal Magic game rules apply, however these are the alterations from traditional Magic.
There are no mulligans. Players keep what they draw.
If the entire communal deck is exhausted, the graveyard is shuffled up and replaced fresh.
The game ends only when all players have died. When a player dies, his cards in play and his hand are all placed into the graveyard.
In addition to the starting 7 cards in each player's hand at the start of the game, each player also begins play with two additional "packs" of cards.
LAND PACK- The first pack is a five card pack consisting of one forest, one plains, one swamp, one island, and one mountain. These five cards are shuffled and placed face down at the start of the game. During each of the player's first five turns, they flip the top card from their land pack onto the battlefield. This does not count towards their one land drop per turn. This accelerates one's mana count, helps prevent mana screw, and enables players to play large spells sooner than later.
SPELL PACK- Each player also starts the game with a spell pack. This spell pack should consist of 7 classic and functional cards. Examples of cards that should/could be included are Desert Twister (destroy any card in play), Terror (spot removal), Disenchant (enchantment/artifact removal), Counterspell (counter target spell), Fissure (destroy target creature or land), Stream of Life (life gain), Braingeyser (card draw), and Wrath of God (board wipe). How one designs the spell pack is a matter of choice, however all five colors should have a card represented in the spell pack and each player's spell pack should be identical to everyone else's. The spell pack gives players options to take out nuisance creatures, lands, or other permanents, counter a spell, gain life, wipe the board, or things that otherwise should help keep the game in check and serve to lengthen the game. Cards from the spell pack can be played at anytime, they can be played only one time, they don't count towards the seven card limit in one's hand, and once a card is played from a spell pack it should be removed from the game. I would advise against direct damage spells (ie Fireball) from being included in the spell pack as the spell pack is not intended to outright eliminate opponents, but rather enhance game play and give players options.
CHAOS STACK- The Chaos Stack is a separate pack of cards that affects all players and game play. It should consist of 20 to 30 cards. The cards should be shuffled and placed in a face down stack. Whichever player starts the game by going first must flip the top card of the chaos stack at the beginning of his or her turn. Whatever card is flipped will affect game play for the entirety of each player's turn. When it gets back to the first player, he flips the next card over which nullifies the previous card. For example, on the first turn a Mana Flare might be flipped. As such, each player's land produces twice as much mana on that turn. On the second turn a Howling Mine might be flipped. The Howling Mine negates the Mana Flare and now each player draws an additional card on their draw step. "World" enchantments and artifacts such as Howling Mine and Mana Flare are ideal for this. Sorcery cards can also be placed in the Chaos Stack, however unlike enchantment or artifacts, they only happen one time- when they are initially flipped. Sorcery cards that would be ideal for the Chaos Stack include Warp World, Wrath of God, and Balance. If the game lasts long enough and the entire Chaos Stack is exhausted, it is shuffled back up, and the process begins again.
I don't know if I am TC (not sure what that means), but no, I am not playing with fake cards. I am only a casual player who hits up FNM a few times a month and plays an SCG event every year or two. I have, however, been watching videos of MTG Lion on YouTube (who obsesses over forgeries coming in from China) and recently saw some of these forgeries in person. PRISTINE condition Mana Drains. The only thing that cued me off as to the fact that they were fake was how PRISTINE the cards were.... An entire playset of PRISTINE Mana Drains. Every old school card worth playing has play wear.