Are the 6 mana dorks necessary in that build? I have a hard time justifying that many without card advantage sinks like Company. I guess Brutality exists to pitch dead ones.
I'm honestly liking Chord a little more than Evolution. There have been a lot of times where I've had to block with my Wall or Voice, resulting in my Evolutions to be a little clunky at times. Maybe I should move back to a split of Evos and Chords. Acting at Instant speed is just so good though.
What does goyf even do for this deck? We are a midrange value deck first and foremost. We don't have an efficient beatdown plan. Saccing goyf to Evolution is awful. Goyf and Resto offer no value unless you're blanking a removal spell, but then goyf could be anything. Goyf doesn't generate CA, ramp, or give our toolbox anything it needs except for a 2 mana blocker.
You can play Traverse and Goyf together. But don't do it in this deck. And I don't really know why a 3-mana goyf sounds appealing to anyone.
1) Search for Tomorrow - Ramps and makes sorceries in graveyard for traverse.
2) Serum Visions - It's a card!
3) Discard spells
4) Noble Hierarch - an independently powerful card that also ramps. Better than birds in Traverse decks.
5) Manlands. Start with a playset of raging ravine.
First, don't play Garruk Relentless. He's a 4-mana bolt. In a deck with a lot of 4 mana spells. I tested enough with him back when pod was legal and he was never good.
Search for Tomorrow could be worth testing in the Nahiri + Traverse list, but I don't like the list, so it's up to you.
I wouldn't splash a 4th color for any amount of Serum Visions or 1-mana Discard. Trying to achieve turn 1 blue or black is far too disruptive to our mana.
I've discussed my dislike for mana dorks + Traverse before. It's too many mana sources. And the dorks are not helping the delirium plan.
Playing any more than 1 tap-land in a 22 land deck is really asking for trouble. Same goes for colorless lands (Fire-Lit Thicket). How often have I considered cutting Ravine, Fire-Lit, and even Razorverge? Lots.
In a vacuum, you might not consider Bolt and Path reliable turn 1 plays, but this is modern. A format dominated by linear aggro decks. If my opponent isn't playing something to interact with on turn 1, they're either a midrange deck that doesn't require me to curve out or a noninteractive/combo deck that I'll have an awful matchup with game 1(Scapeshift, Tron, Ad nauseum, etc) and my curve is probably irrelevant. Turn 1 removal spells are good against over half the modern meta game(perhaps well over half, but I stopped counting after I got to ~55%). Perhaps Chapin didn't mention that in his book.
My testing with the Fauna Shaman + Traverse list didn't last long. I wasn't finding success without Voices. I'm back to my original list, but now I'm on 61 cards main, and I'm trying a Teeg in the sideboard.
If anyone is interested in testing with Traverse, I'd start here. I've played well over 100 matches with very few changes. The deck feels well-tuned enough, and it's given me good results. I'm still exploring ideas without Evolution.
Do you think this build is better than Chord versions?
Aye, trying to fix the truly horrible MU's is just not worth it, especially in the main. We can get quite a lot of hate from the SB, and our ability to recur stuff with Witness is pretty powerful. Even then, stuff like Titanshift will mostly stay bad, we're just buying ourselves a tiny fighting chance, which feels like crap but is a thing we gotta accept.
...unless they start being everywhere, then it's mainboard Fulminators, Mindcensors and tons of Surgicals and Memoricides
What's your opinion on Hoogland's Black splash for Collective Brutality and Orzhov Pontiff in Kiki Chord? Do you think he's just weakening his mana base for cards that just aren't worth it? I don't see how only 2 Brutality give you back many percentage points versus non-creature combo, but then again I'm not Hoogland.
I've tested a Tracker in Naya Evolution/Chord before and wasn't overly impressed. Doesn't help stabilize the board when playing against aggressive decks and against anything with lots of removal, it's just going to cycle, which may not be worth it. I prefer the pure Finks route, but I could see a Courser being a little better than Tracker. It does something somewhat similar, has a larger butt, and can help stabilize with life gain. That's my experience anyway.
I definitely understand what you're saying. Maybe I'm wanting to focus too much on additional discard and should just accept the fact that our non-creature combo matchup is terrible game 1.
There's too many directions this deck is getting pulled into lately, and it's very hard to tell what the right direction is. Starting to think I need a break from the deck to clear my head and approach it from a fresh direction.
Agreed. I'll probably continue playing my no dork, 4 bolt 4 path 4 evo list for a while longer. I think it's pretty consistent. Doubt I get into the Nahiri or Traverse builds. Have considered trying a heavy Chord list, but haven't gotten around to it. I just hate the idea of drawing into multiple mana dorks mid or late game and completely regretting it. I really have no clue where Kiki will end up.
What do you guys think of a gaddock teeg in the main/side in the evolution builds? I'm not playing chord or nahiri and I've found teeg to be a great combo hoser that stops become immense, conflagrate, ad nauseum, scapeshift, through the breach, chord, company, and big chunks of Tron and jeskai.
Good enough to maindeck?
Teeg is very vulnerable to removal, but if you main Spellskite/Selfless Spirit, he at least has some protection backing him up. I think he's strictly a sideboard card and definitely not good enough to main deck.
Not sure if I like the direction a lot of people are taking this deck. Traverse with just a couple of individually decent delirium enablers (Familiar, Courser, etc.) seems much better than splashing in Baubles, Sigils, etc. These enablers take up valuable deck space, and if you're playing 16 spells (8 removal, 8 tutor) and 23-24 lands, you only have room for 20-21 creatures. This is already pretty tight and I have no idea how you can slot in more delirium enablers without reducing your creature count. Besides, Traverse finding a land and the remaining Traverse acting as creature tutors is probably just fine and doesn't require your deck to warp 3-4 slots to enable delirium for only four cards.
The 3/3 split between Path to Exile and Abrupt Decay feels very solid. While Path is amazing and necessariy to deal with things like Kalitas ( ), Decay gives the deck the option of killing annoying critters early while letting us keep our Paths for bigger and badder threats. It also plays beautifully into the deck's "Answers For Everything" philosophy.
So far the 2 Lilianas in the sideboard have been great in several matchups, be it midrange grindfests, the mirror, or decks with lots of X/1's like Affinity or Infect. I'm also positivily surprised of how well Surgical Extraction fits into the deck's sideboard plans. I added them and the Fulminator Mage mainly because I wanted a potential answer for Urza Lands and Valakuts, while also having something against all kinds of reanimator strategies. With our ability to discard or destroy pretty much anything, Surgical seems really nice so far. I had a game against Tron where I had the line of T1 Bird, T2 Evolution Bird into Fulminator Mage, blow up an Urza Land and Extract it away - sadly the plan was foiled by a Warping Wail from the other side of the table
I've also tried a third Horizon Canopy instead of the 8th fetchland. So far they've been good. The additional card draw really goes a long way in these kind of strategies. Haven't faced too much aggro lately though, so I'm not sure how much it's gonna cost me in those MU's.
Thanks for putting in the time with this deck. I can barely find any active discussion on Abzan Evolution, so it's nice to see something going on.
This card was talked up pretty hard. It's a complete pile in my opinion. Even Hoogland talked this card up, while claiming Finks still wasn't "ideal".. even though it can actually trade with threats in Modern. Honestly, the card has been terrible in the Evo lists I've tested it in against relevant T1-2 lists (Jund, Infect, Affinity, Titanshift, Burn & Jeskai Nahiri)..
I love that Fink's ability to grind against the actual decks in modern is still neglected here. Fink's front side trades with most relevant creatures in modern outside of Goyf and still persists for a 2/1 that can trade with most aggressive creatures. It grinds in the MUs where necessary.. hell.. even the king of grind, Jund plays 2-3 for the grindy & agressive MUs.
I haven't tested an Evo deck that put up over a 50% WR without Kitchen Finks.. I'm talking about lists that a put a decent amount of testing into too (35+ matches across T1-2 decks)..
I have to agree with this. Finks is an all around all-star and I think relying solely on 4x Voice of Resurgence and 2-3x Wall of Omens as "good" Evolution fodder is on the low side. What other creatures am I happy sacrificing? If I don't hit a Voice or Wall, I'm not ditching an Ooze, Spellskite, Courser, or a Witness that's only going to get back a fetchland. Witness is at its best when it's getting back a removal spell or other grindy creature from the yard, and even then I'd like to blink it with Resto to get more value. Maybe I'm playing the deck wrong, but I can't see how Finks isn't a great maindeck option. Sure, it can't trade with Tarmogoyf or any of the 4cmc or higher Eldrazis, but it's still not the worst creature in our deck against those matchups imo.
On the topic that the deck is falling off the map, I would agree. The only amount of consensus without father Hoogland we can make is "Eldritch Evolution is a good magic card". This deck has always been Hoogland's pet deck and almost nobody else has seen major success with it other than him. On MtgGoldfish we are a measly 0.3% of the meta. Does it mean this deck is bad? No. Does it mean we aren't a huge competitor in the meta? Yes.
Other people have seen major success with the deck and also before Hoogland did.
I pretty much agree that lot of people here have trouble to decide for themselves what card is good in this stretched archetype and just follow the hype...
For example, the kitchen finks / courser of kruphix classic debate... I am not enough of a trendsetter to be followed with this but I replaced them by tireless trackers and don't look back. Would most of you consider it ? Probably not because you need to build over it by upping protection and fetch count (which is also convenient if you play magus / blood moon along with it). You will probably tell me that it is bad because it is not classic deck design but if hoogland ever tries, I am pretty sure to see people jumping on it and considering it as the new bolt build..
Would you mind sharing your list? I'm fairly new to the deck, but have a lot of experience with Abzan Collected Company/Chord. I'm a huge fan of the creature toolbox decks and really enjoyed Abzan CoCo, but with the amount of sideboard hate running around at the moment, I decided it was probably in my best interest to switch to Kiki Evolution/Chord. I feel the deck can make a transition from "pretty reliant on the search and graveyard effects" to a more midrange approach better than Abzan CoCo can during side boarding.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/live-testing-kiki-chord-nov-28th-2016/
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Wall of Roots
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Wall of Omens
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Eternal Witness
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Restoration Angel
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Reveillark
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Chord of Calling
Lands: 22
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Temple Garden
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stomping Grounds
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
I'm honestly liking Chord a little more than Evolution. There have been a lot of times where I've had to block with my Wall or Voice, resulting in my Evolutions to be a little clunky at times. Maybe I should move back to a split of Evos and Chords. Acting at Instant speed is just so good though.
Do you think this build is better than Chord versions?
What's your opinion on Hoogland's Black splash for Collective Brutality and Orzhov Pontiff in Kiki Chord? Do you think he's just weakening his mana base for cards that just aren't worth it? I don't see how only 2 Brutality give you back many percentage points versus non-creature combo, but then again I'm not Hoogland.
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Wall of Omens
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Restoration Angel
2 Siege Rhino
1 Nekrataal
1 Reveillark
1 Shreikmaw
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile
2 Lingering Souls
4 Eldritch Evolution
Lands: 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Temple Garden
1 Razorverge Thicket
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Godless Shrine
2 Concealed Courtyard
2 Shambling Vent
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Agreed. I'll probably continue playing my no dork, 4 bolt 4 path 4 evo list for a while longer. I think it's pretty consistent. Doubt I get into the Nahiri or Traverse builds. Have considered trying a heavy Chord list, but haven't gotten around to it. I just hate the idea of drawing into multiple mana dorks mid or late game and completely regretting it. I really have no clue where Kiki will end up.
Teeg is very vulnerable to removal, but if you main Spellskite/Selfless Spirit, he at least has some protection backing him up. I think he's strictly a sideboard card and definitely not good enough to main deck.
Thanks for putting in the time with this deck. I can barely find any active discussion on Abzan Evolution, so it's nice to see something going on.
I have to agree with this. Finks is an all around all-star and I think relying solely on 4x Voice of Resurgence and 2-3x Wall of Omens as "good" Evolution fodder is on the low side. What other creatures am I happy sacrificing? If I don't hit a Voice or Wall, I'm not ditching an Ooze, Spellskite, Courser, or a Witness that's only going to get back a fetchland. Witness is at its best when it's getting back a removal spell or other grindy creature from the yard, and even then I'd like to blink it with Resto to get more value. Maybe I'm playing the deck wrong, but I can't see how Finks isn't a great maindeck option. Sure, it can't trade with Tarmogoyf or any of the 4cmc or higher Eldrazis, but it's still not the worst creature in our deck against those matchups imo.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-10-16-JvX-kiki-evolution/?cat=type&sort=cost
Would you mind sharing your list? I'm fairly new to the deck, but have a lot of experience with Abzan Collected Company/Chord. I'm a huge fan of the creature toolbox decks and really enjoyed Abzan CoCo, but with the amount of sideboard hate running around at the moment, I decided it was probably in my best interest to switch to Kiki Evolution/Chord. I feel the deck can make a transition from "pretty reliant on the search and graveyard effects" to a more midrange approach better than Abzan CoCo can during side boarding.