@Az: I’m a solid 3 as scum. I don’t fake reads well, and my “supportive” townplay (more questions for other people to feed off of as opposed to my using them to drive scumreads) doesn’t really generate a lot of credit beyond the opening days.
I don’t think the adjective choice/lack of “passion” is necessarily AI for Terry (his 5th post you’re referring to in 303). I feel like I come from a group of players that would reflect both sides of that spectrum adequately as all alignments. Would you say you have a strong grasp on his meta, or is this consistently AI for you?
Don’t feel like you need to dump your notes, but you’ve literally only demonstrated public effort on deciphering three individuals after your first two posts (which, from what I can see, ceased review at 188): Terry, GF and myself. Give me some thoughts on the rest of the game early Tomorrow. I’d say today, but I don’t think that’s productive given our proximity to the deadline and the momentum of the current wagons.
Something you can do relate to toDay, however, is respond to my thoughts on Terry’s meta below. Behaviorally, I don’t have issue with what you’re saying, but I’m willing to have meta outweigh it in this specific circumstance. I can further prove my work if desired.
---
@Iso I’m torn on Highroller’s 219. On one hand, the mindset behind this post reads as scumhunting: trying to make a multifaceted argument is pretty difficult when you know each of your points can be refuted (as scum). On the other hand, as others have pointed out, he’s reaching on a few points, and seems bloodthirsty. Those can be town indicative when you start tunneling, so I think it’s still net +town for that level of effort.
Why didn’t you like it?
Bur’s defeatism in 282 pings me as discouraged scum. He didn’t roll the role he wanted, and RL has been keeping him down. So, why put in effort?
Strongly agree with the Bur/Grape interaction. Seems like the perfect passing “interaction” for lazy review in the future.
What do you think about Vezok’s 450?
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@Cantrip: I was considering the fake daykill as a “gotcha” moment. I would put Iso’s ISO of Iso within scum!Iso’s ISO range.
@GF: (310) So your first choice is rez. If you thought someone saw something towny about him, but he was one of your leading scumspects, why would you not ask for that to get clarified?
@Highroller What did GF’s claim do for you?
@KA: What hypocracy were you referring to in 264? And if you really think that Iso is intending to ask you questions, but isn’t giving you something to answer, why not give him something to work with? Do you think this increasing animosity is beneficial for the town?
Oh, you did this in 330. Better late than never..? I feel like Iso was being pretty clear on what he was wanting from you.
@Axel: Literally everything I can think of about you this game is “GF’s not scum,” theory and setup-based. Am I wrong?
Oh hey you did a thing in 533 WAIT IT’S THE SAME THING
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Rez’s responses in 268 satisfy me.
My opinion on GF was pretty high, relatively speaking, until the 300s. 310, 346, 352 are all bad for a variety of reasons (fencesitting, flailing, trying to take the easy lynch out, “low hanging fruit” of both the individual [Az] and reasons for liking him). Claim does nothing. Saying I’ve done less than Bur is tilting.
I’m confident KA/Terry cannot be S/S after the page 8 interactions. I’m also confident that Terry’s frantic posting on pages 8/9 is identical to how he was behaving in Playstation when he was about to be mislynched. It’s following a very similar pattern, where I think he’s scummy for a variety of reasons, then he doubles down on his posting style and asks questions with the similar level of aggression (both constructively and otherwise). Not a behavioral fan prior to that.
KA/GF interactions (and KA’s reaction to GF’s claim), OTOH, seem to point towards a >rand S/S relationship. “Oh great, an excuse for me to unvote my scumbuddy and try to force a NL at deadline! It’s even got a bit of momentum, so I’ll just ride this CFD to the finish line.”
We should really not flavorgame.
I’ll probably spend tomorrow at work getting some better notes on pages 9-11. There assuredly needs to be more questions, but my brain is drained at current. Mom is home, and I may be cancelling a long weekend trip I had planned (homecoming in my neck of the woods), but I’ll definitely be here at deadline given it’s Friday at 9p.
---
Dan
Vezok (seriously, take this to the bank)
Iso
Cantrip (should be higher, I’m just paranoid after Phantom Tollbooth where I had him higher at this point of the game)
Highroller
TRSJT (maybe he’s just replicating that town game perfectly, but I HIGHLY doubt that is fake emotion)
Az (I won’t be naive and attempt to say I have a read on him at this point)
Bur (??)
Axel (?)
I'm back from my V/LA weekend. Exhausted and slammed at work, so no meaningful content from me today.
@Vez You're right, I haven't really posted much analysis as opposed to probing questions. I'll fix that tomorrow, odds are. I particularly need to pick Iso & Az's brains.
I definitely can't be here in the last 6ish hours leading into the deadline, unfortunately.
And note that he never re-appeared before what would have been the deadline.
This would be because, if my language of "no meaningful content from me today" wasn't clear enough there, was under the impression that our deadline was at 2am tonight, aka 11ish hours from now.
Above notwithstanding, my apologies to all for my markedly lowered activity these past few days. My mom was admitted to inpatient care late Friday night, which has seriously distracted me both at work (when I'd normally be posting) and keeping me busy after work (when I'd post outside of that). My apologies for my markedly lowered activity, but I'm going to do my best to not replace here. Depends on what her care will require.
I need to specifically interact with Iso and Az because, in my measurement, they have increased their posting quantity/quality the most sharply.
I'm back from my V/LA weekend. Exhausted and slammed at work, so no meaningful content from me today.
@Vez You're right, I haven't really posted much analysis as opposed to probing questions. I'll fix that tomorrow, odds are. I particularly need to pick Iso & Az's brains.
I definitely can't be here in the last 6ish hours leading into the deadline, unfortunately.
@Vez: What makes you think Cantrip’s 160 list is “safe?” What makes you think the daykill is +scum for Cantrip? Do you think that KA’s strictly theory-based response is NAI?
@KA: What will make it clear to you that it’s scum!Iso vs agro!Iso pushing you?
@Cantrip: Why can’t KA be doing both simultaneously (asking and doing)? What was the logic behind the fake daykill? A bit more detail than “I think he’s scum,” please. You did get a reaction (the theory), so why state otherwise in 242?
@GF: I echo Cantrip’s questioning of “where have you done this absent-minded posting before.”
@Rez: Why is GF’s statement you quoted in 218 nonsense? Will you define the intent you’re describing in 229? Also, 177 please.
@Terry: highroller makes a good point re: Vezok’s overdefensiveness & KA’s pointing that out.
I don’t think the KA or Cantrip interaction really reflects well on either of them. KA’s hypocrisy on Cantrip’s read is transparently bad, and Cantrip (on top of not selling that well)’s “gotcha” just feels very out of character for him.
@KA: Ok. I was going to ask if you have any experience with town!Cantrip that would make you react differently to 105, but I think your 163 has eliminated your doubt of him (through 160).
What do you think of Rezombied and Iso, and more specifically, Iso’s criticisms of your avoiding his questions? You could also just give a T/S list, given that you’re under a decent level of scrutiny.
@Iso: Do you have specific examples of GF’s developing thought processes? Something must’ve triggered this for you.
Does the assumption that >0 scum thinking Highroller is town imply you think Highroller is town?
I’m not sure I’ve ever been invited into a townbloc. New and exciting things!
@GF: Check my response to Cantrip in 176. I can give more references if desired, but I had a really bad tendency to replace out of scum games, and it correlated with my falling behind in them.
@Vez: What do you think of the rest of Cantrip’s 160 that wasn’t directed at you? I assume negative things, but I’d like you to go into a bit more detail.
@Highroller, yes, B. I’m curious where you’re going with this. I’m also curious what you think of GF’s third/fourth paragraphs, as I think they reflect an organically developing mindset on his Rez read.
@Terry: Reread your 178. Then ask why someone might think you’re behaving a bit… erratically. Do you think that because Cantrip has the opposite view of Highroller, it discredits what Highroller is saying?
Gun to head, Highroller is town for his insistence on the massclaim topic. Very odd hill to die on early in the game if scum, and very odd to make himself the center of attention as scum. It was distracting, but there wasn't a lot else to distract from.
I think Cantrip's 160 puts him back in the leaning town category, but I thought he was town all through Phantom Tollbooth until he got caught. This is absolutely Town Vez. That's all I've got so far.
@rezombied Would Vezok’s trying to get people to come forward with information strike you as a positive or negative thing? Why?
Why did Cantrip’s scum analysis bother you? Does his more recent post change your opinion at all?
@Iso Are you happy with rezombied’s response to you?
This is a 12 person game. There are only so many roles that can exist, and we don't know whether the mafia all have a common theme to their roles, or if how much they know about this, or how the game is constructed thematically. All of these are factors in claiming.
Disagree. There is effectively infinite roles that can exist, and they are strictly dictated by the creativity of a mod in a given game. The fact that there are so many layers to the individual roles (I'm digging off my own a bit in this assessment, but I think it's a fair one given the public information so far). And a 12 man, which while I haven't created in a role madness setting itself (although I have helped review double digits of them), has fewer people to CC than the 16+ setups that I do have experience creating, so I think it's reasonable to expect that it would be more difficult to catch/predict a fake claim in that context.
That collapses under any amount of thought. The easiest game for the mafia to fake claim is one with vanilla towns. Every dimension you add becomes that much harder. This has numerous dimensions: card name, card type, color, ability, flavor, and potentially different ban lists. The mafia not only must keep track of all of these, they need to figure out what pattern the mod set up.
Once again, one of the most rudimentary questions a game mod must think of when creating a Magic-themed mafia game is whether or not there's going to balance with regards to color or not. I set up a game in which there were an equal number of players represented among all colors. Is that the case here? Or is it just grab bag? If so, did Wuggles choose the cards based on who'd fit the roles he'd laid out already? Did he take cards that were iconic banned cards like Black Lotus and make roles around that? Or is it a bit of both? These are the most elementary questions a game designer must answer.
You're saying the mafia definitely has the answer to all of these questions. I don't see how that's possible. They have three data points. You're presuming that from this they know all they need to know about all 12 roles to produce plausible claims that cannot be seen through without any possibility of them slipping up. Again, not seeing how that's possible.
Again, disagree, even stronger here. Vanilla town is the worst role for mafia to claim. They eliminate any attempt at a CC to gain info from the town, and should never reasonably stop a wagon's momentum on its own. Why would the mafia need to determine a pattern? You say only three data points, and I say that's three times as many data points as anyone else, not to mention whoever claims ahead of them. I think you're far overanalyzing this, and the number of variables you're pointing to actually bolster my previously given argument, in that it'd be SO difficult to catch a fake claim based on the effectively infinite range of potential roles.
Once again, we have people advocating a Day 3 claim. If you're advocating a Day 3 game, or even a Day 2 claim, then there's zero reason we wouldn't benefit far more from a Day 1 claim. If you're against any mass claim at all, then I completely disagree, but it's at least consistent. But the idea of stalling a claim benefits no one but the mafia. The people who have the most to lose are the mafia, who immediately lose all advantages and are forced to react on the spot with very limited information. If I were mafia, I would be opposing a Day 1 claim adamantly.
No argument here, I agree. This logic doesn't really stand up in my eyes, as far as a specific Day to claim. Either claim immediately, claim after you have a focal mechanical point (cop check) to build your gameplan around, or claim in Ly/MyLo.
What do you mean, "Not to say I think one strategy is better than the other"? How can you not think one strategy is better than the other? You have to have an opinion on that.
I wasn't attempting to give an opinion on the matter, but strictly discuss the merits of the theory behind it. Assuming this means you do want my opinion, however, I think if the setup were less complex, I'd be willing to massclaim and coordinate actions here. Generally speaking, I am pro-public information from townsfolk. I think given the context of this setup, I don't support a claim until we have something to build off of, but once we get to that point I'm for it.
On this note, I would like to stop engaging on the subject and discuss other, more meaningful things. It does feel like a lot of people are lurking, and this is providing a huge distraction to allow the scum to join that number.
Vote: Grapefruit
Have a good weekend!
I don’t think the adjective choice/lack of “passion” is necessarily AI for Terry (his 5th post you’re referring to in 303). I feel like I come from a group of players that would reflect both sides of that spectrum adequately as all alignments. Would you say you have a strong grasp on his meta, or is this consistently AI for you?
Don’t feel like you need to dump your notes, but you’ve literally only demonstrated public effort on deciphering three individuals after your first two posts (which, from what I can see, ceased review at 188): Terry, GF and myself. Give me some thoughts on the rest of the game early Tomorrow. I’d say today, but I don’t think that’s productive given our proximity to the deadline and the momentum of the current wagons.
Something you can do relate to toDay, however, is respond to my thoughts on Terry’s meta below. Behaviorally, I don’t have issue with what you’re saying, but I’m willing to have meta outweigh it in this specific circumstance. I can further prove my work if desired.
---
@Iso I’m torn on Highroller’s 219. On one hand, the mindset behind this post reads as scumhunting: trying to make a multifaceted argument is pretty difficult when you know each of your points can be refuted (as scum). On the other hand, as others have pointed out, he’s reaching on a few points, and seems bloodthirsty. Those can be town indicative when you start tunneling, so I think it’s still net +town for that level of effort.
Why didn’t you like it?
Bur’s defeatism in 282 pings me as discouraged scum. He didn’t roll the role he wanted, and RL has been keeping him down. So, why put in effort?
Strongly agree with the Bur/Grape interaction. Seems like the perfect passing “interaction” for lazy review in the future.
What do you think about Vezok’s 450?
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@Cantrip: I was considering the fake daykill as a “gotcha” moment. I would put Iso’s ISO of Iso within scum!Iso’s ISO range.
@GF: (310) So your first choice is rez. If you thought someone saw something towny about him, but he was one of your leading scumspects, why would you not ask for that to get clarified?
@Highroller What did GF’s claim do for you?
@KA: What hypocracy were you referring to in 264? And if you really think that Iso is intending to ask you questions, but isn’t giving you something to answer, why not give him something to work with? Do you think this increasing animosity is beneficial for the town?
Oh, you did this in 330. Better late than never..? I feel like Iso was being pretty clear on what he was wanting from you.
@Axel: Literally everything I can think of about you this game is “GF’s not scum,” theory and setup-based. Am I wrong?
Oh hey you did a thing in 533 WAIT IT’S THE SAME THING
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Rez’s responses in 268 satisfy me.
My opinion on GF was pretty high, relatively speaking, until the 300s. 310, 346, 352 are all bad for a variety of reasons (fencesitting, flailing, trying to take the easy lynch out, “low hanging fruit” of both the individual [Az] and reasons for liking him). Claim does nothing. Saying I’ve done less than Bur is tilting.
I’m confident KA/Terry cannot be S/S after the page 8 interactions. I’m also confident that Terry’s frantic posting on pages 8/9 is identical to how he was behaving in Playstation when he was about to be mislynched. It’s following a very similar pattern, where I think he’s scummy for a variety of reasons, then he doubles down on his posting style and asks questions with the similar level of aggression (both constructively and otherwise). Not a behavioral fan prior to that.
KA/GF interactions (and KA’s reaction to GF’s claim), OTOH, seem to point towards a >rand S/S relationship. “Oh great, an excuse for me to unvote my scumbuddy and try to force a NL at deadline! It’s even got a bit of momentum, so I’ll just ride this CFD to the finish line.”
We should really not flavorgame.
I’ll probably spend tomorrow at work getting some better notes on pages 9-11. There assuredly needs to be more questions, but my brain is drained at current. Mom is home, and I may be cancelling a long weekend trip I had planned (homecoming in my neck of the woods), but I’ll definitely be here at deadline given it’s Friday at 9p.
---
Dan
Vezok (seriously, take this to the bank)
Iso
Cantrip (should be higher, I’m just paranoid after Phantom Tollbooth where I had him higher at this point of the game)
Highroller
TRSJT (maybe he’s just replicating that town game perfectly, but I HIGHLY doubt that is fake emotion)
Az (I won’t be naive and attempt to say I have a read on him at this point)
Bur (??)
Axel (?)
Rez
GF
KA
Above notwithstanding, my apologies to all for my markedly lowered activity these past few days. My mom was admitted to inpatient care late Friday night, which has seriously distracted me both at work (when I'd normally be posting) and keeping me busy after work (when I'd post outside of that). My apologies for my markedly lowered activity, but I'm going to do my best to not replace here. Depends on what her care will require.
I need to specifically interact with Iso and Az because, in my measurement, they have increased their posting quantity/quality the most sharply.
@Vez You're right, I haven't really posted much analysis as opposed to probing questions. I'll fix that tomorrow, odds are. I particularly need to pick Iso & Az's brains.
I definitely can't be here in the last 6ish hours leading into the deadline, unfortunately.
@Vez: What makes you think Cantrip’s 160 list is “safe?” What makes you think the daykill is +scum for Cantrip? Do you think that KA’s strictly theory-based response is NAI?
@KA: What will make it clear to you that it’s scum!Iso vs agro!Iso pushing you?
@Cantrip: Why can’t KA be doing both simultaneously (asking and doing)? What was the logic behind the fake daykill? A bit more detail than “I think he’s scum,” please. You did get a reaction (the theory), so why state otherwise in 242?
@GF: I echo Cantrip’s questioning of “where have you done this absent-minded posting before.”
@Rez: Why is GF’s statement you quoted in 218 nonsense? Will you define the intent you’re describing in 229? Also, 177 please.
@Terry: highroller makes a good point re: Vezok’s overdefensiveness & KA’s pointing that out.
I don’t think the KA or Cantrip interaction really reflects well on either of them. KA’s hypocrisy on Cantrip’s read is transparently bad, and Cantrip (on top of not selling that well)’s “gotcha” just feels very out of character for him.
What do you think of Rezombied and Iso, and more specifically, Iso’s criticisms of your avoiding his questions? You could also just give a T/S list, given that you’re under a decent level of scrutiny.
@Iso: Do you have specific examples of GF’s developing thought processes? Something must’ve triggered this for you.
Does the assumption that >0 scum thinking Highroller is town imply you think Highroller is town?
I’m not sure I’ve ever been invited into a townbloc. New and exciting things!
@GF: Check my response to Cantrip in 176. I can give more references if desired, but I had a really bad tendency to replace out of scum games, and it correlated with my falling behind in them.
@Vez: What do you think of the rest of Cantrip’s 160 that wasn’t directed at you? I assume negative things, but I’d like you to go into a bit more detail.
@Highroller, yes, B. I’m curious where you’re going with this. I’m also curious what you think of GF’s third/fourth paragraphs, as I think they reflect an organically developing mindset on his Rez read.
@Terry: Reread your 178. Then ask why someone might think you’re behaving a bit… erratically. Do you think that because Cantrip has the opposite view of Highroller, it discredits what Highroller is saying?
I think Cantrip's 160 puts him back in the leaning town category, but I thought he was town all through Phantom Tollbooth until he got caught. This is absolutely Town Vez. That's all I've got so far.
Why did Cantrip’s scum analysis bother you? Does his more recent post change your opinion at all?
@Iso Are you happy with rezombied’s response to you?
@Cantrip Here’s Secret Neighbors. Prior to that, you’re gonna have to go all the way back to Pleasantville in 2013.
What were you hoping to accomplish with your question to Vezok?
@Highroller My role, at its core, is fairly standard and strictly functions based off of mechanics unique to this game.
@KA Would you expect more emotion out of Cantrip’s scum game specifically, or just from scum in general in that position? Why?
No argument here, I agree. This logic doesn't really stand up in my eyes, as far as a specific Day to claim. Either claim immediately, claim after you have a focal mechanical point (cop check) to build your gameplan around, or claim in Ly/MyLo.
I wasn't attempting to give an opinion on the matter, but strictly discuss the merits of the theory behind it. Assuming this means you do want my opinion, however, I think if the setup were less complex, I'd be willing to massclaim and coordinate actions here. Generally speaking, I am pro-public information from townsfolk. I think given the context of this setup, I don't support a claim until we have something to build off of, but once we get to that point I'm for it.
On this note, I would like to stop engaging on the subject and discuss other, more meaningful things. It does feel like a lot of people are lurking, and this is providing a huge distraction to allow the scum to join that number.