Let's look at Wreak Havok, the only thing that makes it better than creeping mold is the fact that it's uncounterable, wheras Creeping Mold can hit Enchantments. I would go so far as to say that Creeping Mold is BETTER than Wreak Havok, simply because Glare is a potent card in the metagame.
I dont understand your logic. In one instance you say WH is better than CM because it is uncounterable, and then two sentences later you say that you would even go as far to say that CM is better. The fact that WH costs 2RG is a very noteable deviation from creeping mold. Your opinion is all well and good, but Im telling you with the now 30+ games I have played in the format, people do run and cast WH for the moment, I dont know what to tell you....
Quote from alfred »
The thing about ED is that they will probably take you out of the game before they even need to cast any of their threats.
.... have you read cranial extraction? Im going to strip you of your relevant threats and not foolishly play into a dream leash. some of us are good players, you know. there is no arguing that the deck runs very few win conditions, and cranial really hurts. also, your lovely little mana synopsis has already proven, that while you are dropping a signet turn 2, Im untapping laying my fourth land and extracting you. your not taking me out of the game turn 3,sorry I just wont buy that.
sunforger isnt a spell they can abuse very well??? as I said, they run very few win conditions, all of them actually being in the form of a 5/5 dragon legend. are you trying to tell me, that if the ED player has a dragon out they cant easily abuse forger by giving their flying man a +4/+0 bonus?? not to mention, you are advocating running a toolbox to go along side sunforger. all I need to do then is just rob your sunforger, and the fact that your deck is now less consistent because of the random 1 of's and 2 of's goes a long way to winning me the game by itself.
Quote from alfred »
I don't know how you were playing the deck, but in my experience you tried to get enough mana into play so that you could both play spells as well as create tokens.
how I WAS playing the deck is sort of irrelevant, as BB18 pointed out, the format is now 165 cards larger, the most popular of which seem to be the undercosted, high power and toughness men of the gruul... how the deck WAS played doesnt matter, compared to how the deck is played. You basically said in regards to wildfire and ED, you cant wait until you have 11 mana for the spell to be effective. they same should then be true for here as well. you cant expect to get solid results out of a solution that costs upwards of a 10 total mana investment, and a severe loss of tempo.
Quote from BigD »
WHAT WHAT WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from BigD »
Not run forger.......... Not run forger..........
ARE YOU CRAZY.
nah, I just like running good spells ;). by your post, you clearly did not read the entire arguments.
2 Island
1 Watery Grave
4 Adarkar Wastes
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Mine
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Minamo, School at Water's E
4 Mana Leak
3 Hinder
4 Telling Time
3 Quicken
3 Compulsive Research
3 Tidings
4 Wrath of God
2 Mimeofacture
1 Orzhov Signet
3 Dimir Signet
3 Keiga, the Tide Star
3 Yosei, the Morning Star
2 Storm Herd
SB: 3 Faith's Fetters
SB: 2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 3 Terashi's Grasp
SB: 3 Ghostly Prison
SB: 1 Mimeofacture
SB: 3 Cranial Extraction
meh this is the list I came up with. I really dont care for storm herd very much, as unlike blaze its usefullness is based on you life total, whereas blaze in the splash red versions was based on something you had more control over in other variants, mana in your pool. Im playing around a bit with a RUW version, but already the mana base is strained thin and UU and WW are hard enough to come by.
game 1 against ED the point is to try to break away from that symmetry. I have found that the best way to beat them is to lay a wildfire before they can. granted it doesnt happen as often as I would like, I still feel that is your best chance game 1. game 2, it is completely irrelevant, as I am just going to board them out in favor of the much superior cranial extraction.
Quote from alfred »
all of their threats have a toughness of 5
your point being? a. we run wrath of god and fetter's game 1 alone... b.) they run 4 to 6 men tops, most commonly Kokusho and Keiga, I hear cranial extraction is some good against decks that run a low number of win conditions... c.) check our list bro they run 4-6 men that have toughness of 5, we run a guaranteed 7...
I also dont see forger being practical against UR tron. I mean, if the counter magic argument is soud in ED's favor, then you can just as easily make the same case for UR tron and just say that forger will not get online due to countermagic. also, they have access to confiscate, and meloku. take a second to think that over, give you a little hint though; robbing your forger and attaching to an evasive man = not so hot for you :(. they also run needle, some in the md. smash comes out of the board.
Quote from alfred »
And Burning-Tree Shaman can be dealt with by Sunforger itself, by fetching Mortify, for either 1-2 damage.
true... however, my burning tree shaman comes down turn 3 :). so then, Im going to lump you in the face with him repeatedly until you get enough mana to play guy X, sunforger, attach and unequip. at that point, you might not be in a position to so comfortably take a damage or 2. I mean realistically, what turn do you see yourself being able to do that? the format is extremely fast now, you can just wait around until turn 7 to start making productive plays.
Quote from alfred »
Wreak Havok is a multicolored Creeping Mold, which I'm fairly confidant will see no play in any format outside Block Constructed.
odd, I played 22 games already and I would say that there is a good amount of players out there that would disagree with you.
Quote from alfred »
Sunforger has the ability to be played before any of that addition starts happening. Eot Creating a token then equipping that creature the next turn is something that this deck does, and has been able to do since it was created. It didn't suck then, and it doesn't suck now.
yes, you can play and equip forger as you see fit, and when. However, are you going to have a turn where you didnt play a spell so you can eot have 5 mana open to create a sap, then the next turn, you are going to spend 3 mana to equip and then another rw specific to unequip. losely blatant tempo advantages is not something this deck does... it didnt suck then, but it wasnt amazing by any stretch of the means.
The thing I liked about Sunforger was it's ability to essentially tutor and play powerful cards like Mortify, Helix and Char creating excellent card advantage.
though considering pithing needle, Burning-Tree shaman, any naturalize effect under the sun, wreak havok and now even creeping mold, I dont see forger being much of an asset, more a liability.
Quote from alfred »
It also made Vitu-Ghazi, TCT a much better card, because your tokens were now powerful enough to take down a Kokusho.
the roll of vitu-ghazi has siginificantly deminished in this deck. the format is a lot faster now, which equates to less token generation out it eot and more playing spells during your turn. Im sure it also wont come to suprise you that the most common man I saw hitting the table all day was the damn Shaman, its not all that huge right now.
wildfire is essentially wrath of god's 5-8 given the amount of aggro in the format. there are alot of 3 and 4 toughness men now, but with the very noteable exception of rumblin slum, not too many have a toughness of 5. also, it is key against emminent domain and is especially useful against UR tron ( and now the new versions that splash a diff color besides R).
After 22 games, on my part alone this is what my list is looking like;
wow Cyan its almost like you read my mind... thats exactly what I am putting together at this very moment, and because of quicken the deck seems fairly playable. eot tidings, storm herd, wrath all seems like sauciness.
Jitte is still degenerate with or without a Burning-Tree Shaman. I would gladly take a point or two to kill a creature, or pump a trampler.
see, Im just not so sure. In the interest of beats, I think it would make more sense that the RGx player would be cast the shaman ahead of the jitte. He can be played turn 3, and only unless it was really conducive to substantiating board position would turn 2 jitte, turn 3 equip jitte to elf,swing murder off two men or something be the correct thing to do over casting this monster. So for arguments sake lets just say that you wont be playing a jitte until after burning tree hits the board.
you will take one every time you change the holder of the equipment. you will take one every time you, remove a counter to pump, you will take one every time you remove a counter to give -1/-1, you will only gain a single life for every counter you remove... couple that with rumbling slum damage during your upkeep, and it tends to add up. also, Burning Tree shaman is not a legendary man, after the second comes down your jitte becomes relatively useless.
for that reason, I find myself including Moldervine cloak more and more to my post GP decklists.
I dont think the skulk is all that impressive. I would be much more apt to running heirarch in that slot alone.
also, I dont think you can run jitte along side Burning tree shaman....
Im becoming more and more a fan of moldervine cloak, especially now with Burning tree being the best card in the set, jitte becomes slightly less effective :(.
ohh I agree RGb is going to be huge, but I would like to see the entire spoiler before making any lists. after this weekend though sir, I would enjoy some fruitful discussion.
On dryad sophisticate, shes not a bad dryad per se. Im just not sure that she warrants inclusion over a turn 1 drop 2/2 in isamaru. she gets even better with a cloak or jitte, agreed though I hate playing spells that are only solid when used in conjunction with other spells. might be worth testing at least, that or zodiac monket depending on how the field pans out.
Deleted argument with a banned poster who has had his posts deleted
-Lesurgo
personally I think it is a good fit, and it is being widely discussed on message boards the world over. Some people are saying they are worried about the UUU requirement to cast this alongside an eot tidings. With 8 U producing signets, steam vents and shivan reef (possibly even tendo, if testing warrants it) I dont share the same concerns. plus it refills itself in your hand, I really dont think you can go wrong. I suppose in some situations it could be slightly narrow, but it is most definately something that is worth testing in my opinion.
I dont understand your logic. In one instance you say WH is better than CM because it is uncounterable, and then two sentences later you say that you would even go as far to say that CM is better. The fact that WH costs 2RG is a very noteable deviation from creeping mold. Your opinion is all well and good, but Im telling you with the now 30+ games I have played in the format, people do run and cast WH for the moment, I dont know what to tell you....
.... have you read cranial extraction? Im going to strip you of your relevant threats and not foolishly play into a dream leash. some of us are good players, you know. there is no arguing that the deck runs very few win conditions, and cranial really hurts. also, your lovely little mana synopsis has already proven, that while you are dropping a signet turn 2, Im untapping laying my fourth land and extracting you. your not taking me out of the game turn 3,sorry I just wont buy that.
sunforger isnt a spell they can abuse very well??? as I said, they run very few win conditions, all of them actually being in the form of a 5/5 dragon legend. are you trying to tell me, that if the ED player has a dragon out they cant easily abuse forger by giving their flying man a +4/+0 bonus?? not to mention, you are advocating running a toolbox to go along side sunforger. all I need to do then is just rob your sunforger, and the fact that your deck is now less consistent because of the random 1 of's and 2 of's goes a long way to winning me the game by itself.
how I WAS playing the deck is sort of irrelevant, as BB18 pointed out, the format is now 165 cards larger, the most popular of which seem to be the undercosted, high power and toughness men of the gruul... how the deck WAS played doesnt matter, compared to how the deck is played. You basically said in regards to wildfire and ED, you cant wait until you have 11 mana for the spell to be effective. they same should then be true for here as well. you cant expect to get solid results out of a solution that costs upwards of a 10 total mana investment, and a severe loss of tempo.
nah, I just like running good spells ;).
by your post, you clearly did not read the entire arguments.
1 Watery Grave
4 Adarkar Wastes
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Mine
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Minamo, School at Water's E
4 Mana Leak
3 Hinder
4 Telling Time
3 Quicken
3 Compulsive Research
3 Tidings
4 Wrath of God
2 Mimeofacture
1 Orzhov Signet
3 Dimir Signet
3 Keiga, the Tide Star
3 Yosei, the Morning Star
2 Storm Herd
SB: 3 Faith's Fetters
SB: 2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 3 Terashi's Grasp
SB: 3 Ghostly Prison
SB: 1 Mimeofacture
SB: 3 Cranial Extraction
meh this is the list I came up with. I really dont care for storm herd very much, as unlike blaze its usefullness is based on you life total, whereas blaze in the splash red versions was based on something you had more control over in other variants, mana in your pool. Im playing around a bit with a RUW version, but already the mana base is strained thin and UU and WW are hard enough to come by.
your point being? a. we run wrath of god and fetter's game 1 alone... b.) they run 4 to 6 men tops, most commonly Kokusho and Keiga, I hear cranial extraction is some good against decks that run a low number of win conditions... c.) check our list bro they run 4-6 men that have toughness of 5, we run a guaranteed 7...
UR Tron doesnt run remand.http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd209
I also dont see forger being practical against UR tron. I mean, if the counter magic argument is soud in ED's favor, then you can just as easily make the same case for UR tron and just say that forger will not get online due to countermagic. also, they have access to confiscate, and meloku. take a second to think that over, give you a little hint though; robbing your forger and attaching to an evasive man = not so hot for you :(. they also run needle, some in the md. smash comes out of the board.
true... however, my burning tree shaman comes down turn 3 :). so then, Im going to lump you in the face with him repeatedly until you get enough mana to play guy X, sunforger, attach and unequip. at that point, you might not be in a position to so comfortably take a damage or 2. I mean realistically, what turn do you see yourself being able to do that? the format is extremely fast now, you can just wait around until turn 7 to start making productive plays.
odd, I played 22 games already and I would say that there is a good amount of players out there that would disagree with you.
yes, you can play and equip forger as you see fit, and when. However, are you going to have a turn where you didnt play a spell so you can eot have 5 mana open to create a sap, then the next turn, you are going to spend 3 mana to equip and then another rw specific to unequip. losely blatant tempo advantages is not something this deck does... it didnt suck then, but it wasnt amazing by any stretch of the means.
though considering pithing needle, Burning-Tree shaman, any naturalize effect under the sun, wreak havok and now even creeping mold, I dont see forger being much of an asset, more a liability.
the roll of vitu-ghazi has siginificantly deminished in this deck. the format is a lot faster now, which equates to less token generation out it eot and more playing spells during your turn. Im sure it also wont come to suprise you that the most common man I saw hitting the table all day was the damn Shaman, its not all that huge right now.
wildfire is essentially wrath of god's 5-8 given the amount of aggro in the format. there are alot of 3 and 4 toughness men now, but with the very noteable exception of rumblin slum, not too many have a toughness of 5. also, it is key against emminent domain and is especially useful against UR tron ( and now the new versions that splash a diff color besides R).
After 22 games, on my part alone this is what my list is looking like;
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
5 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Plains
3 Congregation at Dawn
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
2 Kodama of the North Tree
2 Yosei, the Morning Star
3 Rumbling Slum
4 Wrath of God
3 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Char
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Faith's Fetters
3 Wildfire
Please refrain from double posting.
-Lesurgo
see, Im just not so sure. In the interest of beats, I think it would make more sense that the RGx player would be cast the shaman ahead of the jitte. He can be played turn 3, and only unless it was really conducive to substantiating board position would turn 2 jitte, turn 3 equip jitte to elf,swing murder off two men or something be the correct thing to do over casting this monster. So for arguments sake lets just say that you wont be playing a jitte until after burning tree hits the board.
you will take one every time you change the holder of the equipment. you will take one every time you, remove a counter to pump, you will take one every time you remove a counter to give -1/-1, you will only gain a single life for every counter you remove... couple that with rumbling slum damage during your upkeep, and it tends to add up. also, Burning Tree shaman is not a legendary man, after the second comes down your jitte becomes relatively useless.
for that reason, I find myself including Moldervine cloak more and more to my post GP decklists.
also, I dont think you can run jitte along side Burning tree shaman....
Im becoming more and more a fan of moldervine cloak, especially now with Burning tree being the best card in the set, jitte becomes slightly less effective :(.
lol, yeah I thought I had answered that already :).
any you called him 'o-town'... hehehe
but yeah, Im more apt to run something looking like the deck that won in japan over eternal dominion technology.
4x llanowar elf
4x birds of paradise
3x Wood elves
3x dryad sophisticate
4x Burning Tree shaman
3x Kodama, North tree
4x Rumbling Slum
3x Moldevine Cloak
4x Putrefy
4x Char
3x shock
4x stomping grounds
4x K. forest
2x skarrg the rage pits
3x overgrown tomb
2x tendo
4x forest
3x mountain
also, jitte seems less than stellar in a deck alongside burning tree shaman.
Deleted argument with a banned poster who has had his posts deleted
-Lesurgo