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  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Fungus Fires
    Quote from Illvion »
    He said, several times, he tested, and said what his conclusions are.


    thats an interesting notion, considering;
    Quote from Cyan »
    As for whether or not I've tested this matchup? Specifically vs. whatever you're playing? Obviously not.

    my suggestion, read the thread before you make some outrageous claim. I have yet to see where Cyan comes out and posts any relevant testing data, all he keeps saying is that we should just take his word for it, because he has played many games.

    Quote from Illvion »
    If I am not mistaken, Lesurgo just posted a reply.

    Im talking about specific action, ie. warning, suspension, something on those terms. Ya know, the same sort of things that are handed out to other users of this forum for doing less than what Cyan is right now...

    Quote from Illvion »
    If you get warnings (plural) maybe, just maybe you should doubt your innocence.

    mmm... Just the like the two lesurgo handed me the other day, that were later deleted by Goblin Boy... I suppose I should have doubted my innocence then too, but I didnt, and well I know you cant check my user notes, but I assure you, those warnings cease to exist now.




    Quote from Illvion »
    This is like Bush saying "I am the president of the united states, so I must be good and right.".
    Which is wrong.

    your powers of drawing comparisons seem to evade me. as I have pointed out; I have, BB18 has, and Nan has convincing DATA (data being the keyword) that states WF is the spell you should be naming. If anything, Cyan is guilty of this accusation more than anyone. If you read the majority of his reponses they basically say the same things; the person playing the deck isnt as good as me, and they are running a sub optimal list in his opinion.


    Quote from Illvion »
    By posting many, many replies here, it certainly seems you want us to believe your deck ideas are the best. To make yourself believable, you have to bring something else than "look at the tag under my name", and "I am good, and I have playtested". By saying this, you made yourself even less believable.

    I do have a tag under my name, that states I know what I am doing. at least, more so than you sir. I am good and I have playtested. what is the issue with me pointing that out. Its funny had you actually, you know playtested, you would get upset too if someone who has not is telling you that they have an opinion that refutes you hard work to determine fact. though, thats just if you have actually playtested. I like to at least intelligently discuss my hard work, I would have no issue taking this junk had I not actually tested.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Fungus Fires
    its funny Cyan just sweeps through all of these threads like a friggin plague. He comes in without concrete testing data, and his sole purpose is not to discuss the strategy of the deck, but his intent is to discredit those of us who who disagree with his, extremely questionable point of view. I mean if I am wrong all the time, as Cyan basically tells me, I wouldnt have this lovely tag under my name, I would think it would be under his.

    this is the competitive magic forum, where we discuss competitive decks of cards. the majority of good players on this site, BB18, Ixi, Nan, myself to name a few continuously post acutual results, things like match numbers, wins/loss, I myself even have an in depth statistical analysis. what does cyan have? an unvalidated, unverified, unaffirmed opinion that he continually misrepresents and states as fact.
    did I mention, that the opinion he expresses refutes the actual testing data of the rest of us. as I said earlier, this just comes down to Cyan being Cyan, and not being able to admit he is incorrect. I for one am sick of seeing this continually go on and on here without any sort of reaction from the staff. I was told a multitude of times, beit by a different regime, if you have something to say, that is completely fine, just do so in a respectful manner and keep in mind that everyone who posts on this forum is not as good as you are. Myself, and Ixi get suspensions and warnings for wanting to cut down on this nonsense, what happens to Cyan? not a thing, even though he is the most condescending and rude out of us all.

    The whole basis of his testimony is: I havent tested against this actual deck but I have tested against Ghazi Glare so automatically I have this matchup in the bag.... sweet logic. any words after you flat out tell me that you have yet to test against this ACTUAL deck, fall upon def ears. I dont have a regular seat on the pro tour, I do have a nice a rating which I have worked hard for, I have many pro tour qualifier top 8's, ymg v. ng grudge match top 8 (did I mention I beat DARWIN KASTLE, that guy who just got inducted to that Hall of fame thingy, for my top 8 bid...), GPT top 8, as well as numerous unsanctioned event wins for things like sizeable sums of cash, PSP gaming systems and power nine cards... I dont have to validate anything to you cyan, because what do I care? you dont even provide playtesting results, all you are is some guy who sits at his crib in indiana or wherever and just likes to incite probelms between changing your kids diapers and cooking grilled cheese's...

    this is just getting down right ridiculous, that so many people have issue with him, and nothing is down. ya know, at this point I dont even care if I get warnings, suspensions, bannings or hell just excommunicate me and send me into exile. these new rules have had everyone a little on edge, what with the unjust warnings being issued, and yet Cyan still remains untouched. Heres the irony though, according to the new rules, if you dont further the discussion in anyway, it is considered spam and is therefor a warnable offence. show me one damn piece of information, that cyan has provided that will "further" this decks production? all the posts I have read dont provide any new information, and are made up of him telling the rest of us, we are wrong.

    I liken Cyan to David Spade in that capital one commercial, where he just keeps saying no, repeatedly. that guy looks pretty ridiculous right? cyan is pretty much the same way, if he didnt come up with it himself, it has to be wrong. you point out that I dont have any pro tour wins or what have you, but again, the ironic thing is, I didnt see your name at worlds, or even any other pro tour/grand prix event this season. where's your list of accolades, if you are so quick to ask for those of others.

    Can't say I didn't give you fair warning about argueing, just look three posts up. Warning issued.

    -Lesurgo
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Fungus Fires
    theres no point in arguing this any further.

    we have testing data, that has been and is continued to be posted.
    cyan, does not.
    He must be right.

    3 people have said, wildfire is the correct spell to name in this matchup.
    Cyan is the only one making claims otherwise.
    He must be right.

    we have stuck by the same argument, over and over
    Cyan keeps tippy-toeing around questions and making alterations to his claims as to keep in congruent to each argument we set forth
    He must be right.

    3 seperate sources stand by the same gameplan, but then no one can be right all the time
    cyan, is one person, and as such, isnt right all the time, but he ensures us all he is right this time, sans any credible playtesting evidence.
    He must be right.

    whats the point.... we test, we prove it, we share the results and he just wants to sit here and pick them apart, and not provide any of his own. I for one wont be wasting any more time arguing with someone who just wants to hear themselves talk. if you have results cyan, lets see 'em son. if you aint got any, Im sure claims based on pure speculation and porous logic are much more accepted in the casual and DFC forum. if you would like, I can provide you a link.:rofl:
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Fungus Fires
    see Cyan, its funny 3 people who have tested the matchup are considered compotent players disagree with you. I can understand standing ones ground, but as you have even said yourself you cant be right all the time.

    Quote from Cyan »
    For my 'knickers' to be in a twist, I would have to actually care about this, which I don't, I was merely pointing out what I felt(and still feel) is, generally, a misplay.

    you are welcome to 'feel' whatever you would like, but the people who have actually tested the matchup, are telling you that your presumptions are incorrect. if you didnt care, then you wouldnt have posted. thats a very weak argument coming from the likes of you.

    Quote from Cyan »
    Dream Leash is hardly what I consider a reliable win condition. The same goes for Confiscate; considering that they can both easily be Naturalized, and I'm fairly sure that you'll be bringing in Naturalize for this matchup.

    yes, I already said I would be bringing in naturalize. I agree though dream leash is not a reliable win condition, though it still allows you to run a relatively light threat base, and by light threat base I mean 4 guys... either way, that is still irrelevant because Im advocating naming their wildfire's so my kodama can stay on the board. ideally speaking Im not going to allow them to rob one of my men and crush my face with him.

    Quote from Cyan »
    No, I think you're mis-evaluating how ED games go.

    we have tested the matchup and are continuing to do so. Have you?

    Quote from Cyan »
    But wait, as you just said yourself, they can easily just Confiscate or Dream Leash any of these win conditions...

    and apparently you missed the portion where I stated I was going to be CaDing up Kodama... which outside of the copy enchantment scenario, goes the distance. I'll get to your pyroclasm theory in a moment.

    Quote from Cyan »
    in reality, it will be easier for them to do so, because you've removed their Wildfire, and they're bound to be sitting on a ton of mana. Besides, all of their guys are 'outs' to this man. Even if they just steal your Hierarch, that is yet another 'out'. 2x Pyroclasm is also an 'out'. It's silly to think that you're going to beat ED just by Extracting Wildfire and swinging with KotNT.

    cyan, I guess my point is, I dont care if they have a ton of mana. cast all the confiscates,annex,mimeofacture,dream leash you want Im still beating your face in with KotNT. the only spell I dont want to see, is the same one you were so adimant about telling Ixi was an awful spell to play. Both Nan and Ixi have said that copy enchantment has been very useful, though i dont really expect you to actually believe anyones concrete playtesting results.

    I have CaD and Im a good player. I told you already Im going to be getting threats I know they cant rob. This isnt an aggro matchup so heirarch can def come out in favor of graveshell scarab, which you shouldnt be allowing to get robbed. in in the instance of heirarch I would most def sac him before they leash resolved anyway, if he was going to be an obstacle for kodama.

    as far as the two pyroclasm theory;
    from our very own ED thread on this forum
    Quote from Me »
    in my testing thus far, clasm is less effective now in this format. it will hit random mana producers, sure but for the most part aggro men got a toughness boost. men like watchwolf, heriarch, shaman, rumbling slum are all seeing frequent spots on the board, in which case they just shake of the clasm and keep running after you.


    Quote from cyan »
    I'm honestly not even sure that this deck is viable post GP, mostly because the face of aggro will be so different. You will be seeing hordes of /3 creatures now, even ones that cost 1 mana(Kird Ape), instead of hordes of /2 creatures.


    and then, Cyan's right hand man, GPiledriver;
    Quote from Gpiledriver »
    I haven't run Pyro main since day one ;). I run 3x Remands in the 3 slots, because I find that most of the time they do a better job at hosing aggros tempo than Pyro does, and gets a card to boot.


    sir , do you still want to tell me that double pyroclasm is a viable option to dealing with kodama? I think that is more than enough evidence right there to refute said claim.

    In terms of sacred ground, I find the spell to be extremely narrow. its only real use is in this matchup, even rg land doesnt have enough destruction to deal with reach/ste/ and our medium casting threats. ED has a straight up piss poor matchup with RGW aggro, which as of right now is the most common deck I can arbitrarily sit down against an unknown opponent and play against. because of that I expect to see the numbers dwindle, I mean even Cyan the maginificent doubts its viability...




    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Fungus Fires
    Quote from Nan »
    I understand why cyan has the opinion he does tough..

    so do I.
    Quote from Nan »
    The deck doesnt need wildfire as much against many other decks but its against this deck spesificly that it is a key spell because all ur land stealing suddenly dont matter as much without wf because they run rampant with land fetching so its hard to keep up with it and at the same time get rid of small and midsize threats..
    thats actually the best I think I have heard the matchup described thus far, good work sir. I have tested too though, and this fact was blatantly obvious to me. I just thought it was interesting that Cyan responded as though I had 6 heads, because I said that wildfire would be my first extraction target.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Fungus Fires
    Quote from BigRed »
    IBTG: Copy Enchantment with Dream Leash is also a way to deal with Kodama.

    agreed. However, I was making a case to Cyan considering I know that he does not run Copy enchantment, which I think is a mistake, as it is so good. He and Ixidor's dream a rather lengthy discussion regarding the spell in the ED thread recently. Though, still I stick behind wildfire being the correct spell to name. If you hit their wildfire, then the only out to kodama is by drawing a dream leash, casting it, have it resolve on a target, then draw into a copy enchantment, targeting dream leash and have that resolve. sort of a little more difficult than just resolving one wildfire or when you know I can easily just trump you entire turn's play by casting eot naturalize for 1G. I want to deal with a spell that they have 4 of versus, a spell that might not even be running, as was the case in the list that won Japan end of the years.

    Quote from Nan »
    Ive been playing the deck yesterday vs Will and ED definitivly had the edge post sb and even after sb it still is a tough matchup. I would say that Cranial does hurt a lot and it hurt the most when it it wf. I was very reliant on wf to be able to control the deck properly.. Sure I have few win conditions but hey, I can steal urs

    Here we have a gentleman, who has actually tested the matchup, who is corroborating my testimony... WF is a key spell for them, I dont know about you guys, but Im getting rid of the the spell that allows them to win the game.


    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Fungus Fires
    Quote from Cyan »
    Considering that your deck A)runs Yosei and B)runs about 10x as many threats as they do; I fail to see why you would ever name Wildfire and not Kokusho and then Keiga.


    relax Cyan, dont get your knickers ina twist. I will be more than happy to clarify my position.

    I do run about 10x as many threats as they do, which brings up an interesting point. while, they may not have many concrete win conditions, as you pointed out only kokusho and keiga, they still have dream leash. You should know as well as anyone that dream leash can compensate for the lack of win conditions, just be me playing a slum and attacking with it. since, I am a good player, I would rather not allow a deck with already so few win conditions any more, especially if they are originally cast on my side of the board.

    understand why I am going to name wildfire yet? Ill keep going....

    If you dont allow one of your men to dream leashed/confiscared/possibly even mimeofactured, ED has but 2 win conditions totally 4 spells... I have CaD tutoring capabilites which allows me to search up north tree. now, Im beating you in the face for 6 points a turn, because I cranialed out the only spell that gives you an out to this man. now you are in a position where you need to draw 1 of 4 cards in your deck in no more than 4 turns, or I will just beat your face.

    that to me seems like the game plan.
    even so, I would still name keiga before kokusho. I have enough support to recoup 10 points of lifeloss, whereas again, I dont want to give them any more threats and allow them to 2 for 1 off a 5/5 flyer.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Fungus Fires
    I dropped the caryatid from the board a couple days ago, because of just that. I didnt really need the wall with fetter's, heirarch/CaD, wrath and wildfire pummelling aggro already.

    ed is a pain the first game, agreed. games 2 and 3 are fairly even though considering I have access to cranial and naturalize. depending on how things shape up cranial nabbing their wildfire followed by north tree can go a good ways in sealing the deal. this is most def a match though that I would test thoroughly as the winner is ussually determined primarily on skill.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Fungus Fires
    ok, I suppose he switched the numbers around enough to merit at least slight discussion;

    Devouring Light
    Im not a huge fan of this spell right now. It can hit dragons, which is useful but will and I have cranial coming out of the board. Basically, any man that is worth hitting with devouring light; Kokusho/Keiga/Yosei, is going to be named just the same with cranial. Id much rather bring in 3 spells from my board and with one casting, have a signifcant chunk of my worries alleviated. not to mention, it is another WW casting spell.

    In our list we have 4x wrath,3x wildfire,3x fetters. there arent too many aggro decks that I have come across yet that can deal with that sort of hate. not to mention, char knocks a large amount of men offline in this format aswell.

    2 congregation seems fine, I have been running that since monday, and havent had any issues. I will say though, this spell has the potential to win games.

    if your running wrath, you are running 4 of them.

    wildfire has always been a situation specific card in nature. I mean, you are only going to do it when it is beneficial to you. I think the reason this deck is good is because of its ability to stabilize the board from a daunting position and swing things into your favor.

    Playing this deck is alot like driving a car. It has different gears, that you shift back and forth from to ensure optimal performance. yesterday, I was having a discussion with a member of my team. as he had the least amount of testing against it so far, we were going over the finer points and he just came right out and said; "isnt that slow?"
    I had to think about it for a second, and ultimately I just said; "are you mad?" this deck is aggro control in probably its most pure form. turn 2 sakura means turn 3 slumb or heirarch, and I dont find that particullary slow, BTS could also make an appearance. then alternatively, you can begin your pre wildfire mana stockpile if you dont get the fast aggro start, sit back reach, and still have wrath and fetter's as a plan b. Im doing some mana tweaking and testing and interesting possible change in the deck right now that is very conducive to wildfire. I also like the fact that in this format wildfire is as good as wrath's 5,6 and 7. I mean, the spell basically scoops aggro decks and is very solid against non-U control, with the ample supportive lifegain via heirarch and fetter's you will usually lve long enough to cast it.

    aod, the board looks a little, how should I say;generic to me. there is no versatility in it, if your not playing a very specific number of decks your sb is rather narrow. I also dislike the CaD yosei/slum in the board, it seems like those slots are just filler.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on New Administrators
    Quote from Luke Skywalker, uhh I mean Bel »
    Funnily enough that holds some truth ..... Wait a minute That means I get to be Luke :p

    lol, well he certainly left the door open for that comparison.
    :duel:
    Posted in: News
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Fungus Fires
    Quote from DHermit »
    but i dont believe any sort of removal is going to work in the most part against either scarab or kagemaro...

    no, youre right, however I think you are kind of missing what BB18 is saying. Obviously targeted removal is not the best solution to these men, but sort of like the boy scouts you need to; "be prepared." a 6/6 kagemaro, with the possibilty of shizo on the board thats a pretty substantial threat to let go unnoticed. you are in top deck mode, frantically trying to find an answer. which would you rather draw: mr. frownface in nekrataal or putrefy? obv, the putrefy. putrefy will keep kagemaro off the board for at list a critical turn or two, until they recurr Jabba the hut, and the same is true for graveshell, keep him off the board for a turn, make them lose a draw. this deck is all about stabilization and the casting, and keeping the beats coming at a furious pace. I mean a sound soultion to both those men would be, eot putrefy, mana phase wildfire, destroy their land so they cant cast either problem man. nekratall, wont even allow you that, and to top it off it has awful synergy with confidant. I see he is in alfred's list just to pick up jitte and forger, which seem like wasted slots in his deck

    Quote from DHermit »
    i'm not even sure if its so many people are posting against the build itself, rather than against the attitude in the posts. it just seems to me like there could be a more pleasant and polite way to provide testing results rather than the elitist attitude that has been plagued on this thread (and forum) lately by a handful of posters. its no fun to read, and takes away a lot of the credibility of the source.

    In fairness though, there is ussually a logical explanation for every event that happens on these boards. tell me sir, how would you feel if you put forth a tremendous amount of work in testing and fine tuning a list, only to have some randoms who clearly havent tested at all, say their deck is better? thats just really damn insulting. I mean, that would sort of be like me telling einstein his theory of relativity is garbage because I have one of my own, I havent tested it nor do I have any relative information to substantiate my claim, but I assure its better, so you should just scrap that whole E=MC2 nonsense... see, how assanine that is? Im sharing a deck with you guys, come on. clearly, I know how to play the game, and I am a solid deck builder. dont insult my intelligence or integrity. give my results the respect they deserve, be intelligent and non argumentative and there will be no issue. you would develop an attitude, if you knew you were good but get taking garbage people who clearly are less advanced in their knowledge of deck building.

    Quote from Zulo »
    I also tested from IBTG and Will's side. I couldn't find a list, so I composed what I thought would be appropriate (BTS, KNorth, Slum etc) and ran it through the gauntlet. I too came to the conclusion that this version is better in the metagame.

    there should be a few lists a page back or so. thanks for the testing though, its appreciated.

    Quote from Cyan »
    Wow, Alfred. That decklist is really something.
    Quote from Cyan »


    Something atrocious.

    ouch.... Mad
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Critical Mass Update
    pretty much, I cant even figure out why we are even still discussing the card choice... I mean the man hasnt made the list since the end of november. any amount of testing will corroborate what Cyan, myself and pretty much everyone else on this thread has shown to be a more solid choice in north tree. If you want to run bob, thats fine, I would just find an archetype more suited to what he does.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on New Administrators
    congratulations gentleman. In fairness though, it took a while to fill that hole Bel left because lets face it, that was a pretty big hole to fill ;).
    Posted in: News
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Critical Mass Update
    ok, I still dont buy it but hey, maybe some testing results could sway my opinion. that is, if you have any.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Fungus Fires
    Quote from Cyan »
    Sunforger was barely useful in the old metagame, and Fungus Fires really wasn't a competitive deck, except against aggro decks..and even then, it was only good against Rw.

    agreed on all counts. there really isnt much more to say on that topic. apparently it is a relatively accepted certainty amongst GOOD players, if other ones cant make that distinction, well, more players for us to stomp on our way to the top 8.

    Quote from Cyan »
    But now, with cards like Burning-Tree Shaman, Rumbling Slum, etc, Sunforger is *obviously* too slow...I can't even understand how anyone would debate this point.

    again, agreed on all counts.

    Quote from cyan »
    You can build an RG Aggro deck in less than 5 minutes(meaning that it won't be a refined or polished decklist at all), and play it against old versions of this and utterly wipe the floor with them.

    agreed, in which case the deck with forger cant even win a matchup that is specifically noted as a cake walk... sweet.

    Quote from Cyan »
    You'll be lucky if Sunforger ever comes online at all

    agreed, and even if it does, there is less of a likelihood it will remain in said state for very long.

    Quote from cyan »
    Just use common sense here.

    its a futile attempt, I have been asking for 3 pages now :(.

    Quote from Cyan »
    It's possible that RWG Control is still playable, but, not in the old 'Fungus Fire' forms.

    Im sure it will come as no suprise... I agree.

    Jive turkey, I can pm you a list if you want, but at this point Im not about to share any more of my work with people who dont appreciate it.

    could you guys also stop referring to us as "the twins?" the only thing will and I have in common is being good magic players that playtest. that analogy was weak from the get go.

    Quote from ilvion »
    Oh, yeah, IBTG. Like the way you write now, has anything to do with other times when you, supposedly, did write normal.

    sir, what in the HELL are you talking about? let the way I write go, and get back to the deck... that is if you actually have a relevant thought to provide.

    Quote from ilvion »
    Oh, yeah, IBTG. Like the way your colour appears on your PC has anything to do with the way I see it.

    well, you are the only user who whines about it. not to mention, you can obviously read it well enough to critique how I write... basically, you missed the irony in what I said. essentially, I dont care how it comes up on your monitor, I can read it just fine, and thats all that matters. I have posted in that color for well over 8 months now, and well obviously enough people can read my posts, I am after all ahem... BEST STANDARD STRATEGIST OF 2005 ;). you havent added anything to this discussion, so why would I care if you can read my posts?

    Quote from ilvion »
    Oh, yeah, IBTG. I was wrong. You've playtested, so everyone has to listen to you, and take all things you say as granted.

    I dont see you, or many other people involved with this discussion playtesting ;). at least my arguments are intelligent and have some basis of fact. whereas, yours seem to be more the kind that come from your anal cavity. stop whining, discuss the deck or dont even bother posting.

    Chopperdave, the portion of your post directed at me is just one really, really long run-on sentence. could you break that up into a readable portrayl of your ideas? either way though, wasnt apos, the former member who is know banned because of his stupidity? doesnt seem like anything we should be discussing now. I will say though, I think will and I get the rules slightly relaxed for us when it comes to posting decklists, as we are senior members and have been playing the game for a while. not trying to be cocky, but if you see my name or will's name next to thread author and then you saw something that apos or some scrub came up with, Im sure just on names alone you would expect to find a competitive deck under our names, whereas god only knows what you will find elsewhere.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
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