If you're just GB, I'd rather run creeping corrosion than stony if affinity has you worried.
Much to Spsiege's dismay, this is the traverse list I was playing. Traverse, probably more than it should, makes feel like I can play anything, although I did take the grave titan out.
I'm sure my love of durdling and the death cloud mindset shows through with the amount of finks I run, but I will admit they feel slow at times. Similarly, tech edge has been useful at keeping people off certain colors, but I've also had affinity/infect simply not play a fourth land to attack with inkmoth. Changes may include swapping out tec edge for field of ruin then dropping a land and a finks for the last two goyfs. A fulminator could be a boring replacement for kalitas in the board, or I'll find something exciting in my giant test pile.
Spage, how does it take 9 mana per turn to recur Galvanic Blast? I run quite a different list than most, so I'm guessing that the method for recursion is a bit different, but I'm curious how you were thinking of doing it when you posted that.
codex shredder (5) + galvanic (1) + academy ruins (3) = 9
edit: codex is 6, total becomes 10
UR twin // 0-2
G1: I misplay a removal, die next turn
SB: -2 damnation, -2 pulse, -1 garruk
+2 golgari charm, +2 illness in the ranks, +1 go for the throat
G2: blood moon before I have the basics
Affinity // 2-1
G1: a pair of inkmoth get there after several turns
SB: -2 liliana, -1 garruk, -1 thragtusk
+2 golgari charm, +2 crime//punishment
G2: cloud leaves him with nothing but a mox
SB: -1 garruk, -1 finks
+2 liliana
G3: his blood moon stops his manlands, I can deal with the rest
RG vengvine aggro // 2-1
G1: finks eats goblin guide
SB: none
G2: his guides/goyfs/bolts are just too fast and wins off just two lands
G3: I cloud his two lands/creatures
RG tron // 0-2
G1/G2: he gets his LD (sundering titan) off before I cloud
SB: -2 damnation, -2 decay
+2 devour flesh, +2 duress
UR Twin // 0-2
G1: mull to 5, eat twin turn 4
G2: turn 1 illness in the ranks, lose to blood moon + pestermite, with exarch clones tapping basics
Burn // 2-0
G1: lifegain creatures, and I still go down to 1 life
SB: -3 cloud, -2 damnation
+2 devour flesh, +2 duress, +1 go for the throat
G2: more lifegain creatures
Affinity // 1-2
G1: only able to deal with overseer after it gets a pump off
SB: -3 cloud, -2 pulse, +2 C//P
+2 golgari charm, +1 damnation
G2: I beat down better
SB: -2 into the north
+2 devour flesh
G3: second cranial plating gets there
I haven't played in a tournament for several months, and it showed. (Both limited knowledge about current meta and and a few sloppy plays I can remember against both affinity players.)
What I would have played in hindsight, with some thoughts about the last three slots. Chalice looks fun to try too.
I'm essentially trading anything that CIPT, for speed. What I want my deck to achieve is there, early discard, ramp then a death cloud, however I'm not sure if the way I am going about it is correct or not.
I'm curious as to what the mana base should look like in a GB version, also how many land total.
24-26; it depends on on the exact build.
Using more than 4 turn 1 discard? Then swamp/tomb become more of a priority.
Running more than 4 turn two ramp? Then you need that first green source.
From turn two onward, twilight mire and woodland cemetery provide equally powerful fixing, less painfully. Rot farm also works better with these than tomb.
Replacing one white source, my last mana base is below. I often count rot farm as a spell because of its inability to be played turn one, and would only use it as land 25+.
Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker is on the battlefield. A 1/1 creature dies. The graveyard is then exiled. Will Shirei track that creature to exile to bring it back?
You're not far off of where my builds are. Seal of Doom is brilliant. Seems like you need hate for Affinity. More Punishment? Creeping Corrosion would have helped.
Leyline would give you an out to Aggro Loam and Tron but you seemed to avoid both.
Good job though. Did you like playing the deck? What would you change? I win 90% of my games in my local meta with my build. Though in larger events my best finish out of a 60 man event was 3rd. I got matched up versus Faeries in the semi's. So I like to know what peoples experience is in larger events. I have come to the conclusion that this deck will win any smaller event if you know how to play it.
I certainly like the deck. (I normally play green-black in every format; last time I played standard was GB elves in Lorwyn, for example.)
There was at least one loam player and one tron player, of approximately 80 people total.
The affinity match-up isn't that bad, but certainly not a good one (other than my darkblast-fail, I went 3-3 in games; 4-4 if you include a pair of matches against affinity on the side.) I'm not sure if I want to dedicate more sideboard space to it, although I recognize it is certainly a common and strong deck.
At this point I'm thinking of a second primal in the side, as it was pretty good in a number of match-ups. Garruk felt underwhelming today, but I wouldn't decrease the count just yet.
Call:
-I have a personal fondness for the card
-Another threat after a cloud, even if discarded
-No single (played) removal spell stops it completely (as far as I know)
-Three mana for a 3/3 is fine in terms of cost efficiency
Emissary:
Against aggro decks with ground creatures (bloodbraid/goblin guide/etc), the extra power is more worthwhile. Against flyers (affinity/faeries) or big mana decks (hideaway) the guaranteed acceleration of StE is better.
That sucks, I was looking for another way around leyline for my sideboard without actually trying to remove it. Thanks for the help guys I appreciate it. Dealing with leyline with pox is tough as it removes playability of entomb, LFtL, Bloodghast, Nether Spirit, Syphon Life leaving us with only The Rack or maybe Phyrexian Totem, Mishra's Factory as possible win conditions.
Any particular reason you want to fight leyline without removing it?
You could play a version of pox that's less graveyard dependent, if you're too often being crippled by graveyard hate.
Since you mentioned loam, I'll assume your playing GB pox, which gives you access to grip and deed, among other things, perfectly playable cards that also happen to deal with leyline.
By looking at your list in post 3126, I see you're playing ratchet bomb and vindicate as well. (If you're looking to keep your tempo, Demystify, Wane (Wax/Wane), and Nature's Claim are additional options.)
Oracle Text: Epochrasite enters the battlefield with three +1/+1 counters on it if you didn't cast it from your hand.
When Epochrasite dies, exile it with three time counters on it and it gains suspend. (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, cast this card without paying its mana cost. It has haste.)
I'm a bit confused because the oracle text says when it dies exile it....it does not say send it to the graveyard, then exile it.
Quote from Comp Rules »
700.6. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield." It is used only when referring to creatures.
Leyline will remove epochrasite from the game before the trigger can suspend it. (Edit: epochrasite's trigger never even triggers; "before" makes it sound like both are on the stack or something.)
. . . full grip of both Elders and Emissaries seems like overkill for ramping. I might trade the Emissaries (at least a few of them) out for some card draw.
Took the cards I have, and went to a local modern tournament. (details in spoiler block below) This list is how I would modify my deck after I buy some cards:
Round 1 - Affinity (1-2)
Too many flyers, not enough damnation. In each game the player who went first, won (he won the roll).
SB:
-2 witness
-1 cloud
-1 garruk
+3 grip
+1 punishment
Round 2 - UW puresteel (2-0)
As the standard deck; cloud left him with plenty of useless equipment on board.
SB:
-1 Vess
+1 cloud
Round 3 - Red aggro (0-2)
Resolving one more baloth/finks would have made the difference.
SB:
-1 Vess
+1 baloth
Much to Spsiege's dismay, this is the traverse list I was playing. Traverse, probably more than it should, makes feel like I can play anything, although I did take the grave titan out.
I'm sure my love of durdling and the death cloud mindset shows through with the amount of finks I run, but I will admit they feel slow at times. Similarly, tech edge has been useful at keeping people off certain colors, but I've also had affinity/infect simply not play a fourth land to attack with inkmoth. Changes may include swapping out tec edge for field of ruin then dropping a land and a finks for the last two goyfs. A fulminator could be a boring replacement for kalitas in the board, or I'll find something exciting in my giant test pile.
3x Scavenging Ooze
2x Tarmogoyf
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Thragtusk
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Shriekmaw
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
2x Fatal Push
2x Hissing Quagmire
1x Mouth of Ronom
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Tectonic Edge
4x Blooming Marsh
2x Snow-Covered Forest
3x Snow-Covered Swamp
2x Treetop Village
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Caustic Caterpillar
1x Chameleon Colossus
2x Damnation
1x Fatal Push
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Necroplasm
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Thoughtseize
codex shredder (5) + galvanic (1) + academy ruins (3) = 9
edit: codex is 6, total becomes 10
What I played:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Woodland Cemetery
3 Twilight Mire
3 snow-covered swamp
3 snow-covered forest
3 Treetop Village
1 mouth of ronom
1 murmuring bosk
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 sakura tribe elder
2 into the north
//beats (11)
4 finks
4 garruk wildspeaker
3 thragtusk
//spot removal (14)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 liliana of the veil
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 putrefy
2 damnation
3 deathcloud
//sidebaord (15)
2 devour flesh
1 damnation
2 golgari charms
2 crime // punishment
1 go for the throat
2 illness in the ranks
2 duress
3 relic of progentius
UR twin // 0-2
G1: I misplay a removal, die next turn
SB: -2 damnation, -2 pulse, -1 garruk
+2 golgari charm, +2 illness in the ranks, +1 go for the throat
G2: blood moon before I have the basics
Affinity // 2-1
G1: a pair of inkmoth get there after several turns
SB: -2 liliana, -1 garruk, -1 thragtusk
+2 golgari charm, +2 crime//punishment
G2: cloud leaves him with nothing but a mox
SB: -1 garruk, -1 finks
+2 liliana
G3: his blood moon stops his manlands, I can deal with the rest
Domain Zoo // 2-0
G1/G2: groud guys + lifegain + removal
SB: -1 garruk, +1 damnation
RG vengvine aggro // 2-1
G1: finks eats goblin guide
SB: none
G2: his guides/goyfs/bolts are just too fast and wins off just two lands
G3: I cloud his two lands/creatures
RG tron // 0-2
G1/G2: he gets his LD (sundering titan) off before I cloud
SB: -2 damnation, -2 decay
+2 devour flesh, +2 duress
UR Twin // 0-2
G1: mull to 5, eat twin turn 4
G2: turn 1 illness in the ranks, lose to blood moon + pestermite, with exarch clones tapping basics
Burn // 2-0
G1: lifegain creatures, and I still go down to 1 life
SB: -3 cloud, -2 damnation
+2 devour flesh, +2 duress, +1 go for the throat
G2: more lifegain creatures
Affinity // 1-2
G1: only able to deal with overseer after it gets a pump off
SB: -3 cloud, -2 pulse, +2 C//P
+2 golgari charm, +1 damnation
G2: I beat down better
SB: -2 into the north
+2 devour flesh
G3: second cranial plating gets there
I haven't played in a tournament for several months, and it showed. (Both limited knowledge about current meta and and a few sloppy plays I can remember against both affinity players.)
What I would have played in hindsight, with some thoughts about the last three slots. Chalice looks fun to try too.
58 / 60
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Woodland Cemetery
3 Twilight Mire
4 snow-covered swamp
4 snow-covered forest
3 Treetop Village
1 mouth of ronom
0 tech edge
//ramp (6)
4 sakura tribe elder
2 into the north
4 finks
4 garruk wildspeaker
2 Tombstalker
0 eternal witness
//removal (18)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 liliana of the veil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 deathcloud
2 putrefy
0 dismember
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 damnation
3 golgari charms
3 duress
2 devour flesh
0 relic of progentius
0 crime // punishment
0 thragtusk
0 blackmail
0 Creeping Corrosion
What does the Fellwar Stone provide you over other two mana ramp? (viridian emissary, farseek, explore, or mind stone)
Is four tombstalker ever too many? I would expect you often end up doing nothing with the first one you draw except discard it to your own cloud.
Do you have trouble with turn 1 black without llanowar wastes? I would switch it for woodland cemetery or twilight mire.
24-26; it depends on on the exact build.
Using more than 4 turn 1 discard? Then swamp/tomb become more of a priority.
Running more than 4 turn two ramp? Then you need that first green source.
From turn two onward, twilight mire and woodland cemetery provide equally powerful fixing, less painfully. Rot farm also works better with these than tomb.
Replacing one white source, my last mana base is below. I often count rot farm as a spell because of its inability to be played turn one, and would only use it as land 25+.
8 basics
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Twilight Mire
3 Treetop Village
3 Woodland Cemetery
I certainly like the deck. (I normally play green-black in every format; last time I played standard was GB elves in Lorwyn, for example.)
There was at least one loam player and one tron player, of approximately 80 people total.
The affinity match-up isn't that bad, but certainly not a good one (other than my darkblast-fail, I went 3-3 in games; 4-4 if you include a pair of matches against affinity on the side.) I'm not sure if I want to dedicate more sideboard space to it, although I recognize it is certainly a common and strong deck.
At this point I'm thinking of a second primal in the side, as it was pretty good in a number of match-ups. Garruk felt underwhelming today, but I wouldn't decrease the count just yet.
Call:
-I have a personal fondness for the card
-Another threat after a cloud, even if discarded
-No single (played) removal spell stops it completely (as far as I know)
-Three mana for a 3/3 is fine in terms of cost efficiency
Emissary:
Against aggro decks with ground creatures (bloodbraid/goblin guide/etc), the extra power is more worthwhile. Against flyers (affinity/faeries) or big mana decks (hideaway) the guaranteed acceleration of StE is better.
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Twilight Mire
3 Treetop Village
3 Woodland Cemetery
1 Murmuring Bosk
Beats (19)
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Viridian Emissary
2 Eternal Witness
2 Call of the Herd
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smother
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Death Cloud
2 Crime // Punishment
1 Primal Command
2 Darkblast
3 Damnation
3 Seal of Doom
3 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
Notes:
-seal is an answer to emrakul
-never played against splinter twin
-never boarded in leyline
Match results, as I remember them off hand: (I'll clarify as best I can if you have questions.)
2-1
generally even matches, all-around grindy. I out grind him.
only game where I used crime
SB: none
2-1
G1: turn 4(5?) emrakul
SB:
-4 IoK, -4 smother, -3 cloud
+3 seal, +3 damnation, +3 duress, +2 darkblast
G2,3: general beats. darkblast token in response to polymorph
2-0
partly he had nothing under hideaways, and his 8/8 KotR ended up blocking
SB:
-2 Garruk, -1 primal
+3 damnation
2-0
smother and primal stalled for several turns, he never activated hideaways
SB:
-2 Crime/punishment, -1 smother, -3 pulse
+3 damnation, + 3 seal
0-2
G1: poison
SB:
-3 viridian emissary, -4 garruk, -1 primal
+3 seal, +3 damnation, +2 darkblast
G2: he beats faster than I can kill
2-0
G1: primal -> finks
SB:
-3 pulse, -2 punishment
+3 duress, +2 darkblast
G2: smother my own finks in response to lethal bolt
M7: ID
2-0
same player as match 5
the two games play out similar to each other, but I hit most of my low cost disruption, and several small (x=2ish) death clouds
SB:
-3 viridian emissary, -4 garruk, -1 primal
+3 seal, +3 damnation, +2 darkblast
0-2
G1: turn 1 steel overseer. it pumps a blinkmoth nexus, among other things, far too much before being answered
SB:
-3 viridian emissary, -4 garruk, -1 primal
+3 seal, +3 damnation, +2 darkblast
G2: I dredge darkblast, then draw a card. game loss. (we played it out, and I would have won game two)
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/worlds11/topmod
Any particular reason you want to fight leyline without removing it?
You could play a version of pox that's less graveyard dependent, if you're too often being crippled by graveyard hate.
Since you mentioned loam, I'll assume your playing GB pox, which gives you access to grip and deed, among other things, perfectly playable cards that also happen to deal with leyline.
By looking at your list in post 3126, I see you're playing ratchet bomb and vindicate as well. (If you're looking to keep your tempo, Demystify, Wane (Wax/Wane), and Nature's Claim are additional options.)
Leyline will remove epochrasite from the game before the trigger can suspend it. (Edit: epochrasite's trigger never even triggers; "before" makes it sound like both are on the stack or something.)
I might try
-2 Emissaries
+1-2 Totem
+0-1 CotH
4 Forest
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Golgari Rot Farm
3 Treetop Village
Ramp (10)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Viridian Emissary
2 Phryexian Totem
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Call of the Herd
Disription (16)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smother
3 Death Cloud
3 Damnation
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Crime // Punishment
3 Obstinate Baloth
4 Leyline of the Void
2 krosan grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Duress
ICDs
Liliana Vess: always seemed win more by the time I had her out.
Call of the Herd / Phryexian Totem: Each has matches where it outperforms the other, so I'm keeping the 2/2 split for now.
Eternal Witness: The deck is already designed to be resilient, so she never had the impact that bringing back something like deed would have.
Smother: All-Star
1 Changes
2 List by Land/Creatues/Other
3 List by Land/Ramp/Beats/Disruption
4 Sideboard
5 Record
--- 1 Changes to list below
--- 2 List by Land/Creatues/Other
4 Forest
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Golgari Rot Farm
3 Treetop Village
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
Other Spells (26)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smother
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Golgari Signet
3 Death Cloud
2 Phryexian Totem
2 Call of the Herd
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana Vess
--- 3 List by Land/Ramp/Beats/Disruption
4 Forest
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Golgari Rot Farm
3 Treetop Village
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Golgari Signet
2 Phryexian Totem
Beats (12)
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
2 Call of the Herd
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smother
3 Death Cloud
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana Vess
--- 4 Sideboard
1 Death Cloud
1 Crime // Punishment
1 Obstinate Baloth
4 Leyline of the Void
3 krosan grip
3 Duress
2 Deathmark
--- 5 Record
3 Rounds (1-2)
Round 1 - Affinity (1-2)
Too many flyers, not enough damnation. In each game the player who went first, won (he won the roll).
SB:
-2 witness
-1 cloud
-1 garruk
+3 grip
+1 punishment
Round 2 - UW puresteel (2-0)
As the standard deck; cloud left him with plenty of useless equipment on board.
SB:
-1 Vess
+1 cloud
Round 3 - Red aggro (0-2)
Resolving one more baloth/finks would have made the difference.
SB:
-1 Vess
+1 baloth
And never forget that you can use grip, or any split second card, to generate a silence effect, regardless of trigger based counters.
I'll have to make it to a few FNMs next month, that's for sure.