I haven't voted yet, but option 4 seems mighty strange to me (as does option 3), and I'm tempted to be a party pooper and vote for option 1. My interpretation of option 4 is that you get two separate land drops per turn -- 1 from 2CB rules, and 1 from your hand. How would this be affected by Exploration/Rites of Flourishing?
Or is option 4 meant to allow unlimited land drops from the hand, making Oboro, Palace in the Clouds = infinite landfall?
My bad on Ghost Quarter, I obviously missed the all-important word "not." I conjecture that at 5 mana, Aether Snap and Doubling Season won't see play in normal rounds.
That said, the land rule change strikes me as odd, clashing with the rules for playing lands in Real Magic. Here are a few scenarios which I find strange:
(1) As mentioned, you can now Stifle a land drop; however you can't use Exploration etc to get additional land drops. Cards like Moonhold and Limited Resources no longer work properly either (but unlike Exploration, neither has ever been playable in 2CB).
(2) You can get your token land drop, and play a land from your hand on the same turn. One could, in principle, play Mishra's Workshop to run out a 4-cost artifact on the first turn. Or (less powerfully) play Ghost Town to get double landfall triggers each turn (also, turn 1 Ghost Town means you have 4 mana available on turn 2).
(3) There may be some corner cases where a player would want to attack and see how the opponent blocks, before deciding which type of land to play (or whether to play one at all).
I made it tokens for exactly the reason of a few niche cards having interesting applications. You may now Stifle a land...you could also cast Time Walk for more effects. The only 2 cards that are effected by playing a land are Fastbond and Hidden Stag to my knowledge. Landfall is an "enters the battlefield" trigger.
I am curious which cards other than Stifle you had in mind, if you don't mind my asking. The Time Walk example I don't follow-- what extra effects do you get under the new rule that you didn't get under the old?
Unless there are more cards than Stifle which now "work" under the new rule, I think I'd prefer to keep Exploration around instead, as that card got occasional play in the old system (for example with Braids, Cabal Minion or Beacon of Creation). The new rule feels to me like change for change's sake, and I felt the old 2CB land rule played more naturally with the rules of Real Magic.
Of course, I'm not the moderator, and I'll play under either system!
I think the match specifically mentioned in my results (VM4L (18) vs Draco9 (07)) should be 4-1 in my favor rather than 2-2.
I agree that we draw when I play second as he can Blackmail my Avatar of Hope and gain 6 life (blanking my Copper Tablet) before I can cast anything.
But on when I'm the play (I obviously lead with Kabira Crossroads), he has a couple of options, none of them good.
(1) Draco9 can go turn 1 Urborg, Blackmail (I reveal my three spells), in which case he must take Copper Tablet or lose on his next upkeep. I cast both my creatures and crush him.
(2) Draco9 goes turn 1 Diamond Valley, Shield Sphere, gain 6 life (blanking my Tablet). I untap and play Avatar of Hope. Draco9 plays turn 2 Urborg, and can either:
(2a) play Perilous Myr, in which case I cast Shortfang to block, and crush him with Avatar.
(2b) play Blackmail, taking Nezumi Shortfang. My turn 3, I attack him down to 3, so his turn 3 Perilous Myr is too late.
I'll post my opinions about my results, because I think they're starting to come in incorrectly! (Mind Twist + Words of Wilding)
vs Hinotama: suggested 6-0. His deck pretty much scoops to Mind Twist for 1 (hitting Warhammer). I can afford to take a couple of hits from the kudzu before I make too many 2/2 beard tokens.
vs Nom Anor: suggested 3-3. I nail him with Mind Twist for 2 on the play, but clearly I didn't do my gatherer research, as Mobilization > Words of Wilding.
vs Laurie Cheers: suggested 3-3. Mind Twist for 2 on the play, but Barrin beats Words of Wilding when I'm on the draw.
vs Lithel: agree 0-6. (That shuffle effect is tech.)
vs Personman & Error1: listed 3-3, suggested 4-1. Mind Twist for 1 gets it on the play. When I'm on the draw, I can still make chump blockers one at a time starting turn 4.
vs ~Tilde~ & Naphtali: suggested 6-0. Mind Twist does its work here
vs Feyd_Ruin: agree 3-3. Mind Twist for 1 was surprisingly relevant this week!
vs LSK & domogrue: suggested 6-0. Twist.
vs tomsloger: listed 2-2, suggested 4-1. Obviously on the play I can just win with Mind Twist for 2. When I'm on the draw, tom only has enough mana to make one beard token on turn 4 while I'm tapped out. On subsequent turns, if he wants to forecast Skyscribing for an extra token, I've got the mana to make one too.
I looked at my matches (admittedly quickly), and have a pair of suggestions that don't affect rankings.
Versus Feyd Ruin with Guile + Deprive, it's should (obviously) be 3-3, as my deck falls apart with Bombardment countered. (Actually when I submitted, I saw as one of the several strong points of my deck the "fact" that it could 4-1 many disruption decks via infinite blocking, but apparently I forgot about evasion.)
Versus tomsloger's Uril + Scourge of the Nobilis, there actually is no life being gained, because the skeleton can block and be sacrificed before combat damage, so I'd mark this one up to 6-0.
Domogrue is referring to a recent bungled game of Starcraft, in which he attempted to 4-pool or 5-pool me, but when his spawning pool morphed, he mistakenly created drones instead of zerglings.
Kill Channel. Show & Tell + Emrakul is fair, but right now Eldrazi.dec is almost as good as Rack/Balance. I don't have too much of an opinion on the rest of the suggested cards.
On another note, I think "Innocent Blood Week" was actually a fairly good time to roll out Anurid, by the line of play "don't do anything till turn 5, then play both spells and never give the opponent another turn." I suggest the following revisions: 2-2 vs mutantman, 6-0 vs Personman, 6-0 vs WhammWhamme.
I think something like the above is worth trying at least once, though I'd probably lean towards block more than single-set so there'd be more options for people to play. I recall criticizing the idea of single-set 2CB right when Zendikar came out because
(a) it was suggested by domogrue, and
(b) I figured everyone would play Valakut.dec (or some other incarnation of landfall)
Here's a crazy idea that I haven't thought through: what about 2CB EDH???
I can't totally figure it out either, but I am pretty convinced that Lich Lord wins 6-0 against AZ Guildmage. I'm not going to go into play-by-play specifics, but rather point out some guiding principles.
The end step is very important in this matchup. If both players get to 120 lands, the Lich Lord can eot drain 30 times, then untap and drain 30 more times, and AZ can only counter 40 out of 60. Also: the Lich player can guarantee getting himself at least one token, even on the draw, by trying to make one eot on AZ's turn 5 (countered), then another on his own turn 5. This makes life considerably more difficult for the AZ player (can't trade 2/2's for a draw, periodically gets attacked for 1, and now drains take 2 life). In fact, it now basically takes 9 mana for AZ Guildmage to safely attack, as he has to tap Lich Lord, counter the token, and hold up 3 more mana to counter a possible token on Lich Lord's turn (a second token would put the Lich Lord player at a huge advantage, as now Lich Lord has two ways of blocking & trading).
In the mean time, Lich Lord can get away with a few eot drains for 2, since AZ has to keep up so much mana all the time, and if AZ ever commits the mana to an attack, then Lich Lord can retaliate with several drains for 2.
So I'm not very smart, and I posted some corrections to this week's results in last week's thread. The thrust of it is, I lose about 10 more points to draws, and TheHiveMind takes a 5-way tie for first.
TheHiveMind collectively wins-- I checked my matches, as well as TheHiveMind's, and my score drops a lot. Chant lock can draw a lot of games, but a 3/3 pro-black can't finish the deal.
VM4L vs bmh: listed 6-0, suggested 2-2. Basically the Chant lock isn't very good and can't stop 3-mana spells.
VM4L vs loran16: listed 0-6, suggested 2-2. Neither player can take the initiative: if loran plays Sower, then Chant pushes Anurid past Mana Drain. On the other hand if I use Chant to resolve Anurid first, then obviously I lose it to Sower.
VM4L vs Tilde: listed 6-0, suggested 2-2. I can stop any attacks, but I can't stop huge blockers from coming down. Too bad Jenara isn't black?
VM4L vs Hinotama: listed 6-0, suggested 2-2. Same as my match against Tilde.
TheHiveMind vs Xyre: listed 6-0, suggested 4-1. With Xyre on the play: Xyre plays Archmage turn 6 (any earlier and he wouldn't have Drain up for the Channel), and attacks turns 7 through 15 for 18 damage. Then Emrakul comes down, but has to just stick around to block the Archmage.
Or is option 4 meant to allow unlimited land drops from the hand, making Oboro, Palace in the Clouds = infinite landfall?
My bad on Ghost Quarter, I obviously missed the all-important word "not." I conjecture that at 5 mana, Aether Snap and Doubling Season won't see play in normal rounds.
That said, the land rule change strikes me as odd, clashing with the rules for playing lands in Real Magic. Here are a few scenarios which I find strange:
(2) You can get your token land drop, and play a land from your hand on the same turn. One could, in principle, play Mishra's Workshop to run out a 4-cost artifact on the first turn. Or (less powerfully) play Ghost Town to get double landfall triggers each turn (also, turn 1 Ghost Town means you have 4 mana available on turn 2).
(3) There may be some corner cases where a player would want to attack and see how the opponent blocks, before deciding which type of land to play (or whether to play one at all).
I am curious which cards other than Stifle you had in mind, if you don't mind my asking. The Time Walk example I don't follow-- what extra effects do you get under the new rule that you didn't get under the old?
Unless there are more cards than Stifle which now "work" under the new rule, I think I'd prefer to keep Exploration around instead, as that card got occasional play in the old system (for example with Braids, Cabal Minion or Beacon of Creation). The new rule feels to me like change for change's sake, and I felt the old 2CB land rule played more naturally with the rules of Real Magic.
Of course, I'm not the moderator, and I'll play under either system!
Quinn
I agree that we draw when I play second as he can Blackmail my Avatar of Hope and gain 6 life (blanking my Copper Tablet) before I can cast anything.
But on when I'm the play (I obviously lead with Kabira Crossroads), he has a couple of options, none of them good.
(1) Draco9 can go turn 1 Urborg, Blackmail (I reveal my three spells), in which case he must take Copper Tablet or lose on his next upkeep. I cast both my creatures and crush him.
(2) Draco9 goes turn 1 Diamond Valley, Shield Sphere, gain 6 life (blanking my Tablet). I untap and play Avatar of Hope. Draco9 plays turn 2 Urborg, and can either:
(2a) play Perilous Myr, in which case I cast Shortfang to block, and crush him with Avatar.
(2b) play Blackmail, taking Nezumi Shortfang. My turn 3, I attack him down to 3, so his turn 3 Perilous Myr is too late.
vs Hinotama: suggested 6-0. His deck pretty much scoops to Mind Twist for 1 (hitting Warhammer). I can afford to take a couple of hits from the kudzu before I make too many 2/2 beard tokens.
vs Nom Anor: suggested 3-3. I nail him with Mind Twist for 2 on the play, but clearly I didn't do my gatherer research, as Mobilization > Words of Wilding.
vs Laurie Cheers: suggested 3-3. Mind Twist for 2 on the play, but Barrin beats Words of Wilding when I'm on the draw.
vs Lithel: agree 0-6. (That shuffle effect is tech.)
vs Personman & Error1: listed 3-3, suggested 4-1. Mind Twist for 1 gets it on the play. When I'm on the draw, I can still make chump blockers one at a time starting turn 4.
vs ~Tilde~ & Naphtali: suggested 6-0. Mind Twist does its work here
vs Feyd_Ruin: agree 3-3. Mind Twist for 1 was surprisingly relevant this week!
vs LSK & domogrue: suggested 6-0. Twist.
vs tomsloger: listed 2-2, suggested 4-1. Obviously on the play I can just win with Mind Twist for 2. When I'm on the draw, tom only has enough mana to make one beard token on turn 4 while I'm tapped out. On subsequent turns, if he wants to forecast Skyscribing for an extra token, I've got the mana to make one too.
Versus Feyd Ruin with Guile + Deprive, it's should (obviously) be 3-3, as my deck falls apart with Bombardment countered. (Actually when I submitted, I saw as one of the several strong points of my deck the "fact" that it could 4-1 many disruption decks via infinite blocking, but apparently I forgot about evasion.)
Versus tomsloger's Uril + Scourge of the Nobilis, there actually is no life being gained, because the skeleton can block and be sacrificed before combat damage, so I'd mark this one up to 6-0.
On another note, I think "Innocent Blood Week" was actually a fairly good time to roll out Anurid, by the line of play "don't do anything till turn 5, then play both spells and never give the opponent another turn." I suggest the following revisions: 2-2 vs mutantman, 6-0 vs Personman, 6-0 vs WhammWhamme.
(a) it was suggested by domogrue, and
(b) I figured everyone would play Valakut.dec (or some other incarnation of landfall)
Here's a crazy idea that I haven't thought through: what about 2CB EDH???
The end step is very important in this matchup. If both players get to 120 lands, the Lich Lord can eot drain 30 times, then untap and drain 30 more times, and AZ can only counter 40 out of 60. Also: the Lich player can guarantee getting himself at least one token, even on the draw, by trying to make one eot on AZ's turn 5 (countered), then another on his own turn 5. This makes life considerably more difficult for the AZ player (can't trade 2/2's for a draw, periodically gets attacked for 1, and now drains take 2 life). In fact, it now basically takes 9 mana for AZ Guildmage to safely attack, as he has to tap Lich Lord, counter the token, and hold up 3 more mana to counter a possible token on Lich Lord's turn (a second token would put the Lich Lord player at a huge advantage, as now Lich Lord has two ways of blocking & trading).
In the mean time, Lich Lord can get away with a few eot drains for 2, since AZ has to keep up so much mana all the time, and if AZ ever commits the mana to an attack, then Lich Lord can retaliate with several drains for 2.
VM4L vs loran16: listed 0-6, suggested 2-2. Neither player can take the initiative: if loran plays Sower, then Chant pushes Anurid past Mana Drain. On the other hand if I use Chant to resolve Anurid first, then obviously I lose it to Sower.
VM4L vs Tilde: listed 6-0, suggested 2-2. I can stop any attacks, but I can't stop huge blockers from coming down. Too bad Jenara isn't black?
VM4L vs Hinotama: listed 6-0, suggested 2-2. Same as my match against Tilde.
TheHiveMind vs Xyre: listed 6-0, suggested 4-1. With Xyre on the play: Xyre plays Archmage turn 6 (any earlier and he wouldn't have Drain up for the Channel), and attacks turns 7 through 15 for 18 damage. Then Emrakul comes down, but has to just stick around to block the Archmage.