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  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Quote from Pokken »
    Yeah, so I think the issue with PE is fundamentally is that it's not so good that casuals don't play it and ruin games with accidental combos. That plus it being a really strong and fairly accessible combo enabler in a lot of decks means you see it in a lot of 75% decks. And then it's also playable in CEDH.

    Being both competitive and casual makes it even worse than POK for me, when you combine in how much more annoying it is to remove at instant speed in comparison (and how much less punishing it is when you do so in most cases).

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And for a little more exegesis on my favorite quote from the Prophet thread:

    If we look at a statistical breakdown of the commander metagame we can see that PoK is in the top 20 creatures of all commander beating out many monocolor bombs that are considered staples, such as Deadeye Navigator, Craterhoof Behemoth, Terastadon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and Woodfall Primus. You are more likely to see a PoK in a random opponents deck then any of the cards listed.


    I did some more prevalence research by the way. At the time PoK was running rampant, it was in the vicinity of the 20th most played creature in EDH and it was the only multicolored creature to be there.

    I give you the 20th most played creature in EDH today:
    Xenagos, God of Revels https://edhrec.com/cards/xenagos-god-of-revels

    It is in 13% of decks it can go in and a total of 5600 decks out of 44878 decks.

    The closest comparison to it (the next most common UG creature) is Prime Speaker Zegana) in 6561 of 53567 decks (at 23rd).

    So for all of you "prophet was in every UG decK!!!" people it is extremely likely that Prophet was in around 7000-10000 of 54000 decks.

    It was probably in fewer decks than Paradox Engine is in now, though its prevalence rate is higher because it's UG specific vs. being able to be played in any deck.

    So the next time you feel the urge to say "Prophet was played way more than Paradox Engine!" This is almost certainly incorrect.


    Thats far from enough data to make the sort of closing statement you just did.

    First of all, though somewhat unrelated to my other points, more people are playing edh today than when prophet was legal, so comparing raw numbers without adjusting for this inflation would be disingenuous. More people could theoretically be playing PE while it still being played in a lower percentage of total decks.

    But relevant to the point that the data you provide doesn't back up your assertion: you make a lot of guesses based on other cards being similarly ranked but with no data showing that this is a valid correlation. There may, for instance, be more spread between places today while the places could have been more clustered when prophet was legal. To be more clear, the difference between tenth place and twentieth today could be (and this is pulled from my ass as I'm not actually looking it up) 4,000 decks, while in Prophets day it may have been 1000. The 20th most played creature today could be ran in a significantly lower percentage of decks than the 20th most played creature 8 years ago. In order to compare Prophet to cards that have similar rankings today and have it be relevant, you'd have to show that the deck percentages are about the same for each ranked place as they were in Prophets day.

    More glaringly, you haven't actually shown what percentage of decks run PE, so you only provide half the answer (and based on flawed data at that). I did do the homework on this though, and I'm seeing it as being in 6 percent of listed decks.

    Further, there is a severe problem with the way EDHrec ranks creatures. Xenagod, ranked 20th in the past 2 years, appears in fewer decks than Zegana, ranked 23rd. Despite this he makes up a larger share of decks that could run him, because there are fewer RGx decks than UGx decks. Zegana is also more narrow that Prophet (she wants decently sized creatures so she can draw lots of cards, whereas Prophet wants things that can be cast at instant speed, which includes any creature due to its ability, and/or activated abilities that require taps or mana. It's good everywhere, and it's a massive bomb.

    It's a shame I can't find data from back then, I'd really like to see the numbers. I'd also like to see the top commanders list. For PE it's a who's who of broken artifact commanders and cEDH perennials, with it's more casual guys being legendary eldrazi, Seton, and Memnarch. Prophet, otoh, was showing up under more casual commanders. That's an important difference, problematic casual omnipresence doesn't look at cEDH numbers.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Quote from Pokken »
    Thanks. Here's the only SCD I can find for PoK:
    https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/607230-prophet-of-kruphix


    Such gems as:


    Quit being a crybaby and kill it. Yes it's strong but it's really no different than Deadeye Navigator, another highly complained about card. Just kill it. If you can't then you need to consider your deckbuilding strategy. (With mod note for flaming)

    Whenever I play Prophet, nothing really changes much. Sure, I get extra mana and my stuff untaps, but my opponents are usually more solitaire-like with their decks, so it mostly acts as just "And untap" each turn.

    Prophet isn't particularly durable. In fact, there's no color that can't take care of it.

    PoK in EDH reminds me a little of Tarmogoyf in that removal dies to it. It's a card that forces your opponents to react instead of playing pro-actively, which is phenomenal against decks that have low levels of interaction. Also, forcing out removal for a 2/3 is great when you are sitting on a wincon in your hand that you're afraid will get blown up

    At this point I have accepted that it rarely survives the turn and is more removal bait than useful card. Having said this the one time it lands and sticks you're on to a winner.

    because i run a full suite of spot removal and play magic both proactively and reactively. I realize that I'm not playing solitaire and need to interact with my opponent's deck.

    If a table cant band together to kill a measley 2/3 with no built in protection, then they were destined to lose anyways. If your deck doesnt have answers to a measley 2/3 with no built in protection, then it was destined to lose anyways. There are MUCH scarier threats that can hit the battlefield than a Prophet of Kruphix. You need to build your decks accordingly or risk being blown out by them.

    Power level aside, I find the play pattern it creates to be very annoying. You can't just say "I'm done. You're turn." You say that and then you and the players who has the next turn have to look at the player with PoK and be like "Well, Can I go now or do you have stuff?" and this happens at the end of every turn as long as the card is out. It's tedious and annoying on a Chaos Moon level and it's in ever single Simic/x deck, at least nobody plays Chaos Moon.

    I despise this card. Sometimes it will be answered immediately - but when its not, it capitalizes the majority of the time available for everyone in the game.

    PoK is a card that completely centralizes the game because it is either "steal/clone it" or "kill it before I get buried in advantage" for every player.

    Its super powerful.. but its only an enabler. It doesn't do a huge amount alone it requires something else for it to abuse.

    Maybe the solution is to unban other tempting Bribery targets? The recurring theme of Commander seems to be that green gets a card that all the blue players want to steal, and the green card gets banned so they can't. Ban bribery so that once PoK is banned, we don't have threads on how all the metas have warped into three blue players racing to bribery the green player's Courser of Kruphix or something.

    To me its most impressive power has been its ability to avoid the banlist. Like what's up with that?

    There are so many broken things in this format. This has a fragile body, requires two colors to be played, and doesn't actually win the game.

    I hate Dead-Eye much more. It is monocolor, wins the game and is quite hard to remove once it's soulbonded.

    As has been said multiple times, Prophet is the enabler, not the killer. It was the Momir Vig that got out of hand. It was the cards drawn from Zegana that swung the game in that player's favor.

    I'm a bit sick of hearing people complain about this card, TBH. (Editorial comment: I died at this one, deja vu much?)

    Find a group that wants to play the same kind of games you do, and understand that if you play with someone new, you have to be prepared for anything.

    (this is me) I'm kinda 60/40 in favor of banning Prophet at this point but not because of power primarily, more the undesirable board state that it tends to create. It's really not fun to play with or against.

    (And someone telling me I'm a whiner for not liking the board states): The phrase "unfun board state" is going to be the death of the format. House rules are one of the supposed cores of the format, and house rules should weed out house problems. (Editorial comment: Dead enough for ya yet chief?)

    Prophet, in my meta, is strong, sure, but certainly nothing like the other two [Sylvan Primordial and primeval titan]. Prophet requires me to have a hand to be useful. The others did not.

    I commonly cast PoK and fail to win - even if it doesn't immediately eat removal.

    At least until people decide Seedborn Muse needs to be banned, too, because people are never going to stop being douchebags with cards, and for some reason, a large number of the casual Magic base derives fun at the lack of fun they can force others to have, thus causing the vocal minority to be even louder. Turn 2-4 Iona when you're playing monocolor is so much more unfun, IMO.


    If we look at a statistical breakdown of the commander metagame we can see that PoK is in the top 20 creatures of all commander beating out many monocolor bombs that are considered staples, such as Deadeye Navigator, Craterhoof Behemoth, Terastadon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and Woodfall Primus. You are more likely to see a PoK in a random opponents deck then any of the cards listed. (Editorial comment: I really found this one interesting because it shows that my prevalence estimates are fairly close to correct - PoK was only in the top 20 creatures, and the few creatures referenced such as Hoofdaddy and Deadeye are both hovering around 10% today; so it's unlikely PoK was much higher than 10%)

    if prophet resolves and the person playing it is even remotely competent at magic, the game is over. Prophet is hands down the most broken card in the format, it is essentially the equivalent of taking four turns to each other player's single turn, the card should not have been printed (editorial: Mmmm, hyperbole)

    I'm guessing people on the committee play the card, that's why it's never been touched. Probably tooth and nail too. (Editorial comment: Wow, the more things change Smile

    Oh man...mods can we please get this thread either locked or merged with the ban list thread. This isn't even a conversation anymore.

    This is a 5 mana card that produces no mana draws no cards doesn't tutor has no etb litteraly does nothing before being open to any instant removal for god sakes it dies to a lightning bolt.. If you don't have the counter to stop a prophet be glad your not aginst a real broken card like doomsday doomsday + any cmc 1 cabtrip kills the table for the same mana cost as this slow creature based enabler.

    Prophet by itself is not a must answer. With a board and a card advantage engine it needs to die the turn it was played. A T2 PoK from Land, Manavault, Land isn't a threat, yet. A T5 PoK with Mystic Remora or Survival out is a different story, the game will end. PoK is one among many 'must answer' cards. I don't feel like it sits that high on the list. Hermit Druid, Ad Nauseam, Necro, Doomsday, Tooth and Nail, and C Sphinx are all higher up in my book

    I play at more than just my own table. FNM, etc., gives me legitimate cause for concern regarding a card's legality.

    The prophet isn't the most broken card in the format however, I believe it is the most commonly broken card in the format. What I mean by that is, it is the card that is ruining the largest number of games. It seems like everybody and their grandmother has a copy of PoK and a large number of them think it's a good idea to put it into their decks.



    Mods - apologies if this summary of the previous thread is too much C&P for this topic, but I think it's really salient stuff. Prophet is a stellar example of a card where people were very divided (even me, with my very balanced commentary if I do say so myself).

    People made literally the exact same arguments against it and for it in a lot of cases.

    The biggest difference is that we don't see the same level of cloning/bribing as we saw with prophet, and of course the reason for that is that PE is a somewhat narrower card. But not narrow enough in my opinion:) Its power level ceiling is much higher but it's not quite busted enough to join dramatic scepter in CEDH only town.

    The other major parallel I see with PE and Prophet is the kind of line of thinking of:

    ~"it's just a broken enabler that enables what you choose to do with it"

    How that plays out is quite a bit different. PE is far more likely to straight up combo out, and far less likely to durdle out during other people's turns. But that is a major parallel; there's kind of a venn diagram happening where PE and Prophet both overlap with ruining the game and comboing like this:

    Too many circles to also add "And a fun time was had by someone other than just the guy playing it" but suffice it to say it's a small sad circle for both :p

    EDIT:

    For some prevalence numbers, I went through the comparison of EDhrec numbers similar to this quote from the previous thread on Prophet


    If we look at a statistical breakdown of the commander metagame we can see that PoK is in the top 20 creatures of all commander beating out many monocolor bombs that are considered staples, such as Deadeye Navigator, Craterhoof Behemoth, Terastadon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and Woodfall Primus. You are more likely to see a PoK in a random opponents deck then any of the cards listed.


    On the list of artifacts in the last 2 years, Paradox Engine is 59th on the top 100. That is insaaaane. Prophet broke top 20 on creatures, but let's remember that creatures are way worse in EDH than spells and artifacts almost invariably. The threshold for a creature to be played is pretty huge, and at that time most of the creature decks were UGx - these days most decks will be playing a ton of artifacts with or without paradox engine.

    The artifacts list is rather skewed as well because things like Fist of the Suns sit at 18th or so on the back of being in 18% of 5-color decks (derp) and Sunforger being in 12% of WRx decks. If you correct for purely actually mono colored artifacts, PE comes in:


    1. sol ring
    2. lightning greaves
    3. swiftfoot boots
    4. commander's sphere
    5. solemn simulacrum
    6. skullclamp
    7. chromatic lantern
    8. mind stone
    9. darksteel ingot
    10. gilded lotus
    11. fellwar stone
    12. thought vessel
    13. sensei's divining top
    14. thran dynamo
    15. ashnod's altar
    16. burnished hart
    17. worn powerstone
    18. hedron archive
    19. mana crypt
    20. caged sun
    21. mana vault
    22. whispersilk cloak
    23. expedition map
    24. everflowing chalice
    25. sword of the animist
    26. nevinyrral's disk
    27. panharmonicon
    28. wayfarer's bauble
    29. steel hellkite
    30. paradox engine

    A fairly respectable 30th.





    Thats a pretty fair selection of excerpts. Your right that the difference is that it is both a bit narrower and has significantly less of a centralizing effect on the format (as it isn't prompting people to run steal/reanimate effects more often like Prophet did). That lowers its rating for me (compared to Prophet) on problematic casual omnipresence (especially since the decks that do use it skew more competitive while things like Prophet, Prime Time, and Sylvan got jammed in casual decks at a higher rate). Needing to have a critical mass of mana rocks to work effectively puts significant downward pressure on stealing it, its one thing that it requires you to build around it more for your own deck but its even more significant in that its unlikely your opponents can take advantage of it without a similar deck. Prophet at least was Seedborn Muse in its fail state (getting stolen by a straight up creatureless deck) and Seedborn Muse is a great card.

    My issue is that as more and more cards that synergize with PE get printed, the number of decks it should be an auto include in increases, and the greater likelihood it will find its way to more and more casual tables and start ruining games. It seems like this is inevitable at some point, but I'm not sure what the tipping point is, and I'd rather wait until its reached than preemptively ban it.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    The hills that some people choose to die on...

    CV is the poster child for "this will never be unbanned". This has been discussed to death tbh.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Random Card of the Day: Immobilizer Eldrazi
    Quote from Hermes_ »
    Would it be mean to run this with some sort of no untapping effect?


    Only as mean as no untapping effects are by default. This at least provides a clock (hyuck hyuck hyuck) that ends the game in a flavorful way.

    I like the meta flavor of this btw, even though it commits the sin of referencing a modern thing from real life. This card is meant to function in a way reminiscent of the IRL Armageddon Clock, in that as it ticks up and the situation becomes dangerous to everyone, everyone works to set it back. This is so weak normally though that it will usually just be ignored, and any situation where it can actually do something will be one that prevents it from being rewound or renders the possibility moot. Still, a good try.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Quote from Pokken »
    I think the power creep is a huge problem. Wizards just keeps making 6+ mana spells do more and more and more until you can have an entire deck full of ramp, draw and cantrips, and nonsense that does way too much for its mana in a format where you can your backup card advantage in the command zone.

    Re: Paradox engine and sensationalism

    The case against PE is reasonably strong compared to the casual banmania stuff:

    • The detailed numbers I have run suggest that PE is fairly high on the "too much mana too quickly" spectrum independently of casual appeal or whatever. So I think that alone allows a case for the card to be considered.
    • Has many scenarios in which it creates game ending loops that take a long time to execute
    • As far as prevalence goes in just 5 months it went from in 5% or so of possible decks to 6%

    Take that prevalence number on edhrec and that is still one of the interesting cases for banning to me. This is a colorless card that is in 1 in 18 decks, despite its admittedly serious deckbuilding consequences -- you really cannot be on a ramp package other than dorks or rocks.

    It sees play in a fairly diverse array of commanders, and takes up a huge share of the builds of many of them

    ~ 70% of urza, arcum decks
    ~ 60% of Azami, seton, rishkar, dralnu
    ~ 50% of new jhoira, sisay, karn, several partner pairs, mono g selvala
    ~ 40% of selvala, kydele, muzzio decks

    Wizards seems to print a new PE general basically every set or two.

    Comparing this card to banmania like Simic Ascendancy is completely unfair. There're many argments for this thing being a problem that are legitimate and should not be thrown out with the "Well it's been around for 3 years and not everyone sees it frequently" stuff.

    I have surely shared my anecdotes, because ultimately that is something people think about. How does the card affect actual games of magic?

    That's why Prophet got banned - its prevalence was partially the issue, but it had many things in common

    1) It warped many UG decks to a be a prophet deck - check, PE strongly encourages artifact and dork decks to play it
    2) It dominated the table both of playing time and of focus when it dropped - PE Checks this box although significantly less so than Prophet
    3) It was a target for theft, cloning and so on - this is much less of an issue though I have seen cloned and acquired PEs win games infrequently

    I think Prophet is probably the best ban comparison we can make other than possibly Metalworker - which compares very interestingly on the mana spectrum.


    -----------------------

    tiny prevalence nugget
    PE sees more play than


    Good times Smile


    Mox Diamond and Grim Monolith are on the Reserve List, so that probably has something to do with it, especially grim mono.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Ravnica Allegiance (RNA) and War of the Spark (WAR) General Discussion
    Playing fast and loose with continuity always leads to bad stories, unless you are jettisoning bad lore with the intention of creating something better you will adhere to in the future. Ignoring continuity makes everything hollow and makes it hard to give a ***** about the story. The reader will notice the contradictions and it will take them out of the story. The reader will find it less worthwhile to pay attention to details as they will be ignored, and the stories become increasingly stripped down affairs that simply detail what happened, which of course can be changed at a later date to fit the sloppy whims of creative.

    Nobody plays fast and loose with continuity to tell better stories, they do it becomes they don't have the skill to tell good stories. They see something they think will be cool but conflicts with the lore or character traits or established plot points and character arcs and instead of doing the hard work to bridge the gap, or even just forego it because it won't fit, they choose to ignore what came before and do whatever they want because it's easier. It's easier to write "cool *****" when you don't care about what came before or making anything fit together, you just find a cool idea and write it. The MCU is successful because it largely avoids this, and hides when it does it well enough that most people don't notice. Meanwhile, Game of Thrones went from being one of the best received shows of all time to a ******* joke for this very reason, because the writers were hacks who played fast and loose with continuity to make their "better story" fit.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Random Card of the Day: Immobilizer Eldrazi
    Good ramp that can find a finisher if you have stupid Mana, or a 1-4 Mana combo piece reasonably.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Morophon as Ally Commander?
    Quote from TeacherMask »
    As the title says, what do you folks think of Morophon as the head of an Allies focused deck?Tarzi is a good commander, but I feel like she might be a bit better as a 99 due to need to bounce to get her Ally Tutor effect.

    Side note: I feel like Morophon makes for a great Eldrazi leader as he lets us have access to not only the colored eldrazi, but colored spells that grant Eldrazi.


    Yes and yes. Though the reason I think he makes for a good ally commander is not because he's better, but because he'll draw a lot less hate than Tazri. Getting to tutor for you best ally is really good, and if you're building allies you probably have plenty of blink to get maximum value from triggers so its easy to reuse the ability. The problem is that she heads up a well known cEDH combo deck and gets hated out quickly. Even if you aren't playing that deck and are clearly dropping allies, within the tribe there are infinite combos that she threatens to turn on (though they are multi card and she can't tutor for conspiracy et al herself).
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Mirrodin Besieged
    Quote from schweinefett »
    ok, so if i understood that right, it feels very niche, and though you didn't really say it, it feels like you're leaning on the "it's probably fine" camp? correct me if i'm wrong.

    But does it feel broken? lead to feel-bads? And was it quick enough for those narrow decks to employ that would lead to awkward/feel bad moments? I suspect that it's going to be like simic ascendency; a card that leads to deflating wins, so much so that the owners would just take it out of their deck out of boredom. Is that close?


    I'm closer to "its fine" than I was before, because the decks that can easily abuse it are a bit more niche than I thought it would be, but it just can out of nowhere cause feel bads. In these decks, it does just work by playing the game as you normally would, but in broader artifact decks it requires a bit more work and isn't as bad. Its still a deflating way to lose, and its worse because unlike Simic A or Mortal Combat it doesn't just win, rather it causes players to lose one by one with time for it to be handled in between. I always consider this worse than just winning, because it is more akin to locking a player out of the game with relatively little effort.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Mirrodin Besieged
    Quote from schweinefett »
    anyone actually play with it yet? I'm wondering if it's as feel-bad as most people think it will be.


    I've put it in an eggsy build that wants to just crap out artifacts to make Akiri big, but those artifacts also tend to draw or can be sacrificed to draw so you can find better artifacts or work with various triggers like Teshar or Myrsmith or Sai etc. The idea is that you threaten with commander damage but MBS can hit as a random "oops you lose" card. I've only been testing the deck at this point, so I don't have much in the way of game reports. The deck isn't ideal for MBS's "you lose" clause because it really wants to poop out artifacts onto the field so Akiri will be big. Both of MBS' modes actually help with that actually, either making 1/1s or letting you loot, but the you lose clause only comes into play after lots of answers have been played. From what I've seen from testing it, I think its unlikely to eventually be banned because the decks that can unlock it at its most obnoxious are narrow. Something like Jhoira eggs should get there with it reliably and quickly while being vulnerable to having it disrupted. Something that I notice is that the decks that can make use of the "you lose" clause most consistently will have fewer slots for permission, and removing the player's graveyard after they hit the magic number will make it highly unlikely they can turn it on again. So situations where they MBS player takes someone out with it and then gets Bogged by a survivor should be considered something that can reasonably happen. With the prevalence of main decked grave hate running around, its not just Krosan Grip that we have to worry about setting up situations where one guy get got early and sits around for awhile because of this card. But again, the decks that will make this happen early often enough to matter are narrower than I initially believed.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on End of an Era
    I'm going to be on both. If I find that I don't like doing that, I'll choose Nexus. Staff administered by people I trust and not tied to the *****ty platforms Sally is.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    From what I've seen, it's use has begun creeping up. I'm don't think it's at omnipresence levels yet, but it may be heading in that direction. The "revolution" in 2 drop rocks Pokken described is real, making PE fit in more decks. It's still often not a problem just because you run 10-15 rocks, as you need a reliable source of draw to prevent just spilling your hand into topdeck mode, but the barriers that have stood in the way of OE achieving problematic casual omnipresence are getting weaker. In addition, cards continue to be printed that make it easier to abuse, from 5 new talismans helping up the number of 2 drop rocks certain decks can run to cards like Urza, Modern Horizons has moved the needle on this card significantly. Whether that ends up being enough remains to be seen. It's still too early to tell what the impact of the set will be, so me saying that I haven't seen PE being ran much more than previously doesn't say much. Perhaps I haven't played enough games, perhaps the not enough people have gotten the cards yet, perhaps it won't be enough to drive PE into problematic omnipresence, or perhaps it will but it will take time for enough people to change their decks and then decide that PE should be added.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Mirrodin Besieged
    Quote from schweinefett »
    Quote from Pokken »

    Personally though it's just a card I wished didn't exist rather than one I would ban. I have no idea why wizards prints stuff like this. Nobody is ever going to feel good about this and it has no real constructed applications that I can see yet (some kind of elite affinity sideboard tech against shatterstorm decks I guess?:P)


    ....it's possibly playable in tezzerator in legacy. possibly. works well with thopter sword combo, so it could work as a surprise non-artifact win.

    Anyways, i tend to agree with your assessment of it though; it only makes feel-bad situations. I'm not sure why that's being a thing now instead of just win the game. maybe it's just too good otherwise?

    But that being said, door to nothingness is also a feel-bad, since it specifically takes a player out of the game instead of just winning.


    At least Door was printed with 1v1 in mind, and the reason they chose "target player loses" was because it sounded cooler than "you win" and fit the flavor better (don't ask for the source, I read it on the mothership years ago). That doesn't make it better, but it does make it more understandable that they would print something like that during a time when they weren't thinking about multiplayer. Its also something that is heavily telegraphed and requires a double rainbow to work. No cheating it out, no skirting the colors by double counting duals for basic land types like CV, no immediate use. You drop it then wait a turn before firing off a double rainbow at someone's face. That does make it better, because its weak, so getting a kill with it feels a lot less cheap, and there are more opportunities to stop it. Winning with it is downright impressive.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Mirrodin Besieged
    Quote from Pokken »
    TO BE FAYUH

    Eggs is an archetype in EDH (see new Jhoira, amongst others)

    (though I will say that it's obviously not a casual omnipresence type thing)


    Yeah, I think that if we actually went down the ban criteria I think it would get a 9 or 10 for problematic game states (I already gave my reasoning for this), and a 0 on everything else EXCEPT problematic casual omnipresence, which is obviously still an unknown but unlikely to get very high considering the sort of decks that would want it. My primary concern here would be it going in more casually minded artifact decks (because its got a high cool factor), and just randomly take people out of the game. It has a high risk for becoming problematic, but I think a low risk for becoming omnipresent. Its probably going to just be an occasional annoyance, which will keep it from being banned (and it has clear fair uses which also helps its case). I still think that all of these sorts of cards should be monitored just to be safe.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Mox Tantalite is bad, and we can do better.
    Mox Uranium 0
    Artifact
    T: Add C and Mox Uranium deals 2 damage to you.

    Substitute Thorium or another lesser known radioactive element if Uranium is too real world.
    Posted in: Custom Card Creation
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