Bull****. Magic can be exciting as hell. The mortars topdeck was incredible.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could find a way to play the game (or maybe just broadcast the game) to highlight those moments instead of the dozens of terrible games produced by the mana system?
Again - I'm making an argument from the pov of the watchability of Magic as a form of entertainment akin to a sport. I realize how important the mana system is for game design. But, I also believe it would be possible to fix these problems, if they cared more about promoting the game to a more casual audience.
Eventually, wizards is going to have to take this seriously if they want to keep growing. Little League is a great program, but it's the TV broadcasts and the stadiums full of fans that make Baseball the game it is. Eventually Magic is going to have to find a way to tap into this kind of excitement - the excitement of fandom - if they want to keep growing. Duels of the Planeswalkers is Little League, and it's fine to introduce people to the game by having them learn to play it. But the Pro Tour should be Monday Night Football.
Real-time update... anyone else enjoying Efro draw what, 6? land in a row and lose a game he otherwise wins easily?
I don't care if it's a good game from a deckbuilding perspective, the challenge of solving a format etc... if you produce moments like this more often than moments of real excitement and drama, you will never be a sport watched by anyone but a hardcore enthusiast.
Which is sad, since Magic has the potential to be much more.
Comparing LoL to MtG is apples to oranges. This has nothing to do with "mana screw" at all.
I'm not comparing Magic to League of Legends as a game, I'm comparing it as a watchable "esport" (aka a non-traditional sport trying to achieve popularity via the internet - I'm well aware that magic is not actually a sport played online).
To succeed in making a watchable product that can appeal to a broader spectrum of viewers than just niche hyper-enthusiasts, the product has to deliver action at a certain cadence. Mana screw and mulligans create games that aren't even games.
If you compare League of Legends game broadcasts to Magic tournament ones, the amount of "Dead Air" in a League game is infinitesimal compared to Magic. Exciting teamfights, objectives, duels etc happen every minute or two in a League game. For Magic you might see a half-dozen moments of real excitement over the course of an entire day's broadcast. Mana screw (and, related, mulligans) has a tremendous amount to do with that. Far too many games of magic are not exciting in the least, no matter what's at stake.
...or did anyone else enjoy watching the PTDKA finals where Paulo and Kibler flipped the top 10 cards of their deck in each game and could figure out who won? Granted the Kibler/Finkel match was fantastic, but we get 10 of the Paulo/Kibler finals for every actually exciting, watchable series of games.
I think the comparison to poker is decent. The majority of professional poker is folding hand after hand after hand, waiting for either a favorable hand or a favorable opportunity to bluff. Televised poker selects interesting hands from many tables playing at once. They edit out long stretches of boring hands.
Interesting point - do you feel like a similar "editing out the boring parts" could work for magic?
Seems like it would be quite a challenge, since the nature of the game is a tournament with a series of 1v1 matches. I feel like "skipping past the boring bits" works better for poker since you are at an ~8 man table and who your opponent is on a given hand is less of a factor in terms of dramatic moments. Everyone is excited to see Phil Hellmuth trying to win a big pot; watching LSV navigate a difficult combat step seems like it loses a lot without more context.
This PT coverage has been absolute trash so far. Not because the coverage team is doing a bad job, and not because the players aren't "stars". It's just, who wants to watch Nassif mulligan to 3 then keep a 2 lander and get run over by turn 4? Then the camera switches to watching Zvi drawing 10+ land while Dougherty has 5 white cards in his hand and no plains. I am not entertained. For every "LIGHTNING HELIX!!!!!!!!!!" there are hundreds, if not thousands of games that aren't even games. The casual "sports" fan is simply not going to tolerate watching games like this, no matter the payoff when the game can actually be played on both sides.
This is the primary reason League of Legends (and similar games) will continue to rise in popularity while magic remains a niche product only enjoyed by hyper-enthusiasts.
Well, most of the people who were top8'ing the old Worlds were also almost never seen again - Uri Peleg, Antti Malin, Hannes Kerem, Inaga - most of them aren't really visible on the international scene anyway.
The tournament wasn't structured in such a way that this was the expected result for the majority of players in contention, however.
Compare PTDKA, with multiple hall of famers in the top 8 or in contention, to the WMC. It's not even close, as a spectator. It's the difference between watching the NBA Finals and watching a Kevin Durant Charity pickup game. Both have their merits, no question... but come on, if you want to see high quality play, pick the format that pits the best against the best.
The real reason you all hate it is because of all the big countries got knocked out and you're sore losers. There, I said it.
There's some truth to this I guess, but only because I was sad to see literally every single "big" pro out of contention. I had no one to root for, I didn't really respect the game of anyone still playing and as such, the entire event was boring as hell.
I don't even care which pros are in contention; I'd be just as happy cheering for Vincent Lemoine or Martin Juza as I would cheering for LSV/Kibler. But give me *something* man. The structure of this tournament virtually guarantees a very small percentage of pro players in contention on day 2+, relative to a Pro Tour. I am just not interested in watching a bunch of PTQ-winners who are running hot play mediocre magic on day 3 of a major event.
We're never going to see any of these names again. Maybe a GP top 8, at best. Surely wotc organized play can give us a better tournament than this.
Again, if you want the Pro Tour side of worlds... there are three PTs a year. If you want to see a top 16 of extremely high-level players, there's the player's championship. The WMC exists to shine a spotlight in an event that was fighting for space with the other side of Worlds (The Pro Tour) and losing badly. If you never cared about the team portion of worlds, why are you upset now? You have the player's championship to look forward to in two weeks, and the regular Pro Tours after that. If you don't care about this event, great, go do something else this weekend; the other side of Worlds is still waiting for you in two weeks. Having them split lets those of us who care about both things actually watch and enjoy both.
Besides, you're out of your mind to say that the top 8 at the WMC was full of "random hot-streak scrubs." I'd like to see you make top 8 in that event. If those players were unproven at the start of the weekend, they have a pretty solid record to show at the end of the event; the whole thing is a fifteen-round tournament across five formats, you don't just get the run goods and steal a win from vastly more skilled players. I think honestly that the teams that overperformed just prepared better, and more power to them. Remember that in the team rounds, the teams mixed together so that team captains faced PTQ winners and so on... and a lot of "nobodies" did well against more experienced players again and again. The top 8 was full of high-level pros, you just hadn't heard of them because of the biases in coverage. I personally like seeing unknown players. I love watching PV play, sure, but when PV does well, that's business as usual. When the god damned Uruguayan national team, with two measly pro points between the lot of them, goes on an absurd winning streak, that has its own appeal.
Though everyone who made day 2 at that event was playing super tightly, and people are just being biased and critical. Just because the last name of the players involved isn't da Rosa or Kibler doesn't mean you have nothing to learn from the game.
Uh, do you realize we used to have the invitational instead of this "players' championship" nonsense? To me, this replaces the invitational, not the 4th PT...
And I never said I have nothing to learn, or that I could replicate the feat of making day 2 at worlds. My point is that, as a spectator, I enjoy watching the BEST players playing their BEST magic. Are you really trying to sell me this Worlds tourney as an example of that?
And, if it isn't about playing the best possible magic, what's the point? If I want to watch a bunch of PTQ-level players I can drive to a PTQ on the weekend. I expect something better from what used to be the 4th, and most exciting, Pro Tour of the year.
Are you seriously trying to say that the reason the top 8 shaped up like it did is luck?
I'm saying qualifying for the WMC is more luck than skill, yes. We're talking about winning a PTQ here... it is entirely possible to just get lucky and go on a tear and win a PTQ.
So right off the bat, a good many of the teams are composed of people who otherwise would be scrubbing out of the pro tour in the first 4 rounds. Now, since the overall quality of the field is much lower, it's that much more possible for someone to get lucky and spike to a finish much higher than they'd be capable of against a more skilled field.
The PT always has a few people who spike, run hot, get lucky, whatever you want to call it, and maybe even make a top 8. Then we never see them again at anything notable. I'm not saying luck was *all* there is to do with it, obviously they can play, but if you can't sustain good results, you got lucky. Period.
The PT is a format that tends to produce top 8-32s *full* of skilled players that will repeat their performances time and again. As a spectator, that's exciting to me. I get to see the top players deliver quality performances again and again.
The WMC is a format that tends to produce a top 8 full of random hot-streak scrubs that we'll never see again.
I'd rather the national teams be composed of the top 3-4 pro point finishers in that country each year. Can you really argue that wouldn't be a far more exciting tournament to watch?
At least with the old Worlds we had a Pro Tour to watch while all the side-narrative of the PTQ-winner national teams was going on. Why did wotc decide to take that mildly interesting side-event and make it the main focus?
It's boring, it sucks, and I want old Worlds back.
No it isn't more exciting. Proof: every sports event in every league ever in the history of the world. You can't spike a Varsity basketball tournament and get a berth to play next to LeBron James in the NBA finals. Because no one would want to watch that.
If Magic is a skill game, lets create a tournament series that rewards skill, not getting lucky. Winning a PTQ then doing well at this Worlds is a result of getting lucky more often than not. Again, proof: we're never going to see any of these people again in top 8 coverage of any kind.
Can you name the top pro from Uruguay? How about Croatia, Latvia, Thailand or Panama? The top pro from most countries is still someone you don't recognise.
Perhaps, but over time I'd recognize them, and I might be more inclined to recognize them in the future at PTs, GPs etc. It would help the top pros from each country build their "brand" from a watchability pov.
My issue is with the PTQ -> Worlds format for the WMCQs. It's dumb. It all but guarantees the national rosters are composed of 50+% nobodies every year. Good if you personally harbor a dream of one day making it to the big show by spiking a 150-200 person tournament (without being good enough to be an actual pro), but AWFUL from the pov of a fan who enjoys watching high-level magic being played by the best in the world.
Because you're absolutely right - I didn't enjoy watching PTQ-level players play against each other, even with the benefit of at least 1 actual pro whispering in their ear and telling them what to do. I enjoy watching high-level magic and the WMC is nowhere close to being that.
People are also kind of just mad that their favourite team didn't win. Americans are pouting quite hard but that's what happens. Those small teams who really overperformed like Taiwan, Uruguay, Puerto Rico and so on were clearly taking it a lot more seriously than the big-name teams were.
I'm not "mad," I'm "bored."
I'd like the event better if it were just the top 3-4 pros from each country, similar to how they do in actual international events (world cup, olympics, etc). That way there would actually be some names I recognize, people to cheer for no matter what country wins, etc. Watching a top 8 consisting of ~22 people I have never heard of is just not exciting or fun, at least, when compared to a pro tour.
If their goal is to have an accessible event that anyone could play in after a hot streak at a PTQ (WMCQ), ok I guess this qualifies. But if the goal is to produce a watchable event that gets people excited, this is a spectacular fail. I'd rather watch a Grand Prix, as I said. I'd rather watch a SCG event. I'd probably even rather watch a local PTQ since I would at least know *some* of the people contending.
I dunno about you guys, but as avidly as I watch pro tour coverage, this WMC event has been a total bore.
Who decided to take the sub-event at the old Worlds, which was perhaps the most exciting tournament of the year due to a Pro Tour *plus* all the national-team stuff, and gut the most exciting part? (the pro tour).
I'm sure it's an honor for the people representing their country etc but good lord this has been a boring weekend for Magic coverage. I'd rather watch a Grand Prix.
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, destroy target non-enchantment permanent.
If you would win the game, instead you lose the game.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could find a way to play the game (or maybe just broadcast the game) to highlight those moments instead of the dozens of terrible games produced by the mana system?
Again - I'm making an argument from the pov of the watchability of Magic as a form of entertainment akin to a sport. I realize how important the mana system is for game design. But, I also believe it would be possible to fix these problems, if they cared more about promoting the game to a more casual audience.
Eventually, wizards is going to have to take this seriously if they want to keep growing. Little League is a great program, but it's the TV broadcasts and the stadiums full of fans that make Baseball the game it is. Eventually Magic is going to have to find a way to tap into this kind of excitement - the excitement of fandom - if they want to keep growing. Duels of the Planeswalkers is Little League, and it's fine to introduce people to the game by having them learn to play it. But the Pro Tour should be Monday Night Football.
I don't care if it's a good game from a deckbuilding perspective, the challenge of solving a format etc... if you produce moments like this more often than moments of real excitement and drama, you will never be a sport watched by anyone but a hardcore enthusiast.
Which is sad, since Magic has the potential to be much more.
I'm not comparing Magic to League of Legends as a game, I'm comparing it as a watchable "esport" (aka a non-traditional sport trying to achieve popularity via the internet - I'm well aware that magic is not actually a sport played online).
To succeed in making a watchable product that can appeal to a broader spectrum of viewers than just niche hyper-enthusiasts, the product has to deliver action at a certain cadence. Mana screw and mulligans create games that aren't even games.
If you compare League of Legends game broadcasts to Magic tournament ones, the amount of "Dead Air" in a League game is infinitesimal compared to Magic. Exciting teamfights, objectives, duels etc happen every minute or two in a League game. For Magic you might see a half-dozen moments of real excitement over the course of an entire day's broadcast. Mana screw (and, related, mulligans) has a tremendous amount to do with that. Far too many games of magic are not exciting in the least, no matter what's at stake.
...or did anyone else enjoy watching the PTDKA finals where Paulo and Kibler flipped the top 10 cards of their deck in each game and could figure out who won? Granted the Kibler/Finkel match was fantastic, but we get 10 of the Paulo/Kibler finals for every actually exciting, watchable series of games.
Interesting point - do you feel like a similar "editing out the boring parts" could work for magic?
Seems like it would be quite a challenge, since the nature of the game is a tournament with a series of 1v1 matches. I feel like "skipping past the boring bits" works better for poker since you are at an ~8 man table and who your opponent is on a given hand is less of a factor in terms of dramatic moments. Everyone is excited to see Phil Hellmuth trying to win a big pot; watching LSV navigate a difficult combat step seems like it loses a lot without more context.
This PT coverage has been absolute trash so far. Not because the coverage team is doing a bad job, and not because the players aren't "stars". It's just, who wants to watch Nassif mulligan to 3 then keep a 2 lander and get run over by turn 4? Then the camera switches to watching Zvi drawing 10+ land while Dougherty has 5 white cards in his hand and no plains. I am not entertained. For every "LIGHTNING HELIX!!!!!!!!!!" there are hundreds, if not thousands of games that aren't even games. The casual "sports" fan is simply not going to tolerate watching games like this, no matter the payoff when the game can actually be played on both sides.
This is the primary reason League of Legends (and similar games) will continue to rise in popularity while magic remains a niche product only enjoyed by hyper-enthusiasts.
The tournament wasn't structured in such a way that this was the expected result for the majority of players in contention, however.
Compare PTDKA, with multiple hall of famers in the top 8 or in contention, to the WMC. It's not even close, as a spectator. It's the difference between watching the NBA Finals and watching a Kevin Durant Charity pickup game. Both have their merits, no question... but come on, if you want to see high quality play, pick the format that pits the best against the best.
There's some truth to this I guess, but only because I was sad to see literally every single "big" pro out of contention. I had no one to root for, I didn't really respect the game of anyone still playing and as such, the entire event was boring as hell.
I don't even care which pros are in contention; I'd be just as happy cheering for Vincent Lemoine or Martin Juza as I would cheering for LSV/Kibler. But give me *something* man. The structure of this tournament virtually guarantees a very small percentage of pro players in contention on day 2+, relative to a Pro Tour. I am just not interested in watching a bunch of PTQ-winners who are running hot play mediocre magic on day 3 of a major event.
We're never going to see any of these names again. Maybe a GP top 8, at best. Surely wotc organized play can give us a better tournament than this.
Uh, do you realize we used to have the invitational instead of this "players' championship" nonsense? To me, this replaces the invitational, not the 4th PT...
And I never said I have nothing to learn, or that I could replicate the feat of making day 2 at worlds. My point is that, as a spectator, I enjoy watching the BEST players playing their BEST magic. Are you really trying to sell me this Worlds tourney as an example of that?
And, if it isn't about playing the best possible magic, what's the point? If I want to watch a bunch of PTQ-level players I can drive to a PTQ on the weekend. I expect something better from what used to be the 4th, and most exciting, Pro Tour of the year.
I'm saying qualifying for the WMC is more luck than skill, yes. We're talking about winning a PTQ here... it is entirely possible to just get lucky and go on a tear and win a PTQ.
So right off the bat, a good many of the teams are composed of people who otherwise would be scrubbing out of the pro tour in the first 4 rounds. Now, since the overall quality of the field is much lower, it's that much more possible for someone to get lucky and spike to a finish much higher than they'd be capable of against a more skilled field.
The PT always has a few people who spike, run hot, get lucky, whatever you want to call it, and maybe even make a top 8. Then we never see them again at anything notable. I'm not saying luck was *all* there is to do with it, obviously they can play, but if you can't sustain good results, you got lucky. Period.
The PT is a format that tends to produce top 8-32s *full* of skilled players that will repeat their performances time and again. As a spectator, that's exciting to me. I get to see the top players deliver quality performances again and again.
The WMC is a format that tends to produce a top 8 full of random hot-streak scrubs that we'll never see again.
I'd rather the national teams be composed of the top 3-4 pro point finishers in that country each year. Can you really argue that wouldn't be a far more exciting tournament to watch?
At least with the old Worlds we had a Pro Tour to watch while all the side-narrative of the PTQ-winner national teams was going on. Why did wotc decide to take that mildly interesting side-event and make it the main focus?
It's boring, it sucks, and I want old Worlds back.
If Magic is a skill game, lets create a tournament series that rewards skill, not getting lucky. Winning a PTQ then doing well at this Worlds is a result of getting lucky more often than not. Again, proof: we're never going to see any of these people again in top 8 coverage of any kind.
Boring.
Perhaps, but over time I'd recognize them, and I might be more inclined to recognize them in the future at PTs, GPs etc. It would help the top pros from each country build their "brand" from a watchability pov.
My issue is with the PTQ -> Worlds format for the WMCQs. It's dumb. It all but guarantees the national rosters are composed of 50+% nobodies every year. Good if you personally harbor a dream of one day making it to the big show by spiking a 150-200 person tournament (without being good enough to be an actual pro), but AWFUL from the pov of a fan who enjoys watching high-level magic being played by the best in the world.
Because you're absolutely right - I didn't enjoy watching PTQ-level players play against each other, even with the benefit of at least 1 actual pro whispering in their ear and telling them what to do. I enjoy watching high-level magic and the WMC is nowhere close to being that.
I'm not "mad," I'm "bored."
I'd like the event better if it were just the top 3-4 pros from each country, similar to how they do in actual international events (world cup, olympics, etc). That way there would actually be some names I recognize, people to cheer for no matter what country wins, etc. Watching a top 8 consisting of ~22 people I have never heard of is just not exciting or fun, at least, when compared to a pro tour.
If their goal is to have an accessible event that anyone could play in after a hot streak at a PTQ (WMCQ), ok I guess this qualifies. But if the goal is to produce a watchable event that gets people excited, this is a spectacular fail. I'd rather watch a Grand Prix, as I said. I'd rather watch a SCG event. I'd probably even rather watch a local PTQ since I would at least know *some* of the people contending.
Who decided to take the sub-event at the old Worlds, which was perhaps the most exciting tournament of the year due to a Pro Tour *plus* all the national-team stuff, and gut the most exciting part? (the pro tour).
I'm sure it's an honor for the people representing their country etc but good lord this has been a boring weekend for Magic coverage. I'd rather watch a Grand Prix.
Bring back old Worlds please.