Let me clarify my position. I've been waxing overly wordy and it's getting in the way.
1. Allies are in my opinion at minimum a solid deck. I am certainly not arguing they're BAD, or even not quite good.
2. I haven't seen the kinds of competitive results that make me think allies are top tier (I just fact-checked myself at starcitygames looking at the GP:KL and the PT:SD results).
3. I don't think drawing conclusions from MTGO daily events is a particularly safe thing to do (I mean I know the decks I've taken into them and done well with - and I'm a pretty bad player in general), unless you've got an enormous sample size suggesting that the deck is doing phenomenally. Seeing 4 Jund in every top 8 of course suggests Jund is amazing. Seeing a deck here and there demonstrates that the deck is at least solid, but I don't think you can take anything more away from it than that.
Fair?
I don't mean to put the deck down. I just think it's premature to step up and say that allies are "ripping up" MTGO because of a handful of decent placements in daily events.
Everyone, for the revised version of the OP, replace "ripping up" with "doing moderately well on"
I dropped spreading seas from my list completely. I added more man-lands and went up to 4 Everflowing Chalice. Naya plays alot of mana dorks and it isn't the stoneblade against jund that it once was.
Do you have a list you can post? I'd be interested to see your removal suite.
This list is great, I'm really only on the fence about the manabase. I may go ahead and squeeze in the whatsit, creeping tarpits over some catacombs. Imagine - they turn 4 ruinblaster and you're like "Tap 3, activate pits!"
why not ex cap the creature they ramp into? I'll let myself be put on a 20 turn clock, with them down to 5 cards. hierarch's presence doesn't really scare me. I'd rather cycle a couple of times/cast chalice than deal with the hierarch. I'll deal with whatever she ramps into with a t3 day. Remember that this removal can hit MANLANDS as well!
Have fun Dispelling Jace. He would be broken if he was an instant.
meh. Never had issues with the RDW. Path for basically ball lightning/hell's thunder MB/sculler/architect/hulk chumper-->Flashfreeze +Purge coming in from the side. My bombs hit once and i win. SoLT has a large ass.
Some of the people playing 4 don't even play black!
Anyway, your build is just different.. more controllish with Negates and Scullers MD. I may test the scullers, but I'm not entirely convinced.
PAth Whatever they ramp into. I'll path a Knight any day of the week, or let them overcommit into a DoJ. Hierarch isn't a threat by itself. It'll die just as efficiently to a Day as that 8/8 Knight.
I don't want to let little guys like Hierarch ramp them. I like having the exec caps to deal with them, along with journey. I guess they still ramp if they're on the play, but if you go first, it's all upside.
Valid. But Manlands are great surprises for people. Won several games at gameday due to people forgetting that I had a Filigree Angel/ Glassdust, Sphinx of Lost Truths, AND the Colonnade.
Weigh it then.. if colonnades work better and you aren't scared of the LD, go for it.
O-ring the chalices, then you can pithing the jace. Ring becomes that stone rain., because even if they destroy it, it'll come back with no counters. Kick that chalice twice - O-ring and that's 4 wasted mana.
Sure.. or Negate the jace. Or Dispel. Or whatever.
Not a huge fan for Rest. Rather use that 2 mana to make sure OtV resolves. The sanguine will do the rest.
Great card in RDW matchup. 1 card 8 matches their most card efficient burn - the hell's thunder which is 1 for 8. It's got utility in other matchups like Turbofog/UW Control.
Why are people running 4 Architect/3 Glassdust? It seems to have more of the cycler that is easier to cycle at any given time. And past 2 architect is worthless except in multiplayer.
Hardcast Architects can win games by buying you time. You reorder + get a blocker.
Chalice is key - All borderposts are being swapped for Chalices. Borderposts are really slow, and if i'm going to risk getting pulsed, I'm going to want to ramp to an earlier OtV, instead of getting set back a turn. Most people aren't doing much turn 2 anyways.
I think I did underestimate the impact of ramping vs. vulnerability. This is a good point, and 3 chalices have been added to my deck.
Instant speed removal is pro. Paths are great in the deck. Deck will look like this now. I think it's much more competitive.
Cigarette and I have been running ex-caps as maindeck "instant speed removal." Of course they can get played around, but returning them with OtV is sick. I do NOT want to give my opponents land, especially if it gets them counter mana, or whatever. Plus, what do you do vs a Noble Hierarch? Just laugh?
1) Something I'm noticing is that people aren't really running manlands in their lists. Why did they get the cut? Because of their vulnerability to Tectonic Edge/Ruinblaster?
2) I'm also surprised by the lack of Pithing Needles in the board. Messes up all planeswalkers/manlands/quests/acensions/etc. (White weenie loves siding in Luminarch Ascension against me)
3) May start cutting Vedalken Outlander. He's not getting sided in too much. Would want ex caps in the board.
1) As you said, getting that early OtV can be really important. I loved Colonnade in my slower build, as another wincon, but to streamline the deck I cut it. Partly the vulnerability, but it's disheartening to topdeck it for your 6th land you needed to cast OtV with.
2) Pithing needle may be an option that needs to be explored, but I think O Ring suffices enough of the time.
3) I've cut Vedalken Outlander as well, but I put in the Rest for the Weary / Sanguine Bond combo in, that I didn't have. I'm up in the air about my board right now. Trying to squeeze in Dispel/Path to Exile in the board maybe.
EDIT: Also, Sharuum is a boss, especially if they didn't see it game 1. You have negate? I don't care, play Sharuum and return Sphinx of the Steel Win!
@TheNidhogg. I see your concern with the O-Rings, but in all honesty, that is, what, one matchup?
I wouldn't mind running a few Nons, as you can see I'm running 2 Drowned Catacombs, mainly the best advice is not to rely on them, as in 4 Glacials, 4 Catacombs, 4 Arcanes. Pretty much, just limit the amount that hit the field early, so that they have dead to semi dead cards.
I think posts/chalices are vulnerable to a lot, everything from O Rings to Duress.
Quick list of things that run O-Rings/Duress/Pulse/Artifact Destruction
UW Control
3 O Rings Main
Jund
3-4 Maelstrom Pulse
Possible Duress in the side
Boss Naya:
2 O Rings Main
1 O Ring Side
GW Aggro
3 O Rings Main
Mythic Bant
3 Bant Charm in the side
Tricked out White Weenie
2 O Rings Main
2 O Rings Side
Vampires
4 Duress Side
Baneslayer Junk
3-4 Pulse
(Last one in the Side)
Some of these matchups don't run the Ruinblasters or Tectonic Edges. I just feel that if you're going to go mostly basics, go mostly basics and don't open yourself to the manascrew on other fronts.
Rest for the weary is huge, cant believe I went so long w/o playing it. Not sure if its needed in the UW matchup tho.
Pretty sure it's necessary to make sure you get the Sanguine Bond to hit big. They have to counter the bond, and if they don't, they have to counter your rests and your OtV. Just another thing they have to waste counters on.
I'm also on the fence about the manabase - I see the value of chalice, but I don't want to keep a hand with 2 lands and a chalice just to see it get O-Ring'd or whatever away. I feel like the nonbasics carry less risk than chalice, while actually getting us colors as well. Running 4 Fortress, 2 Catacombs right now, and it's working pretty well.
RDW isn't completely unwinnable, but it is one of our harder MU. Some people are adamant about PoE over Journey, on here. So maybe Paths wouldn't be too bad for a sideboard minus the outlanders, or it may just be that we don't even need anything else due to the Rests, Freezes and Purges. And it might allow for something, though I have no clue what, to be put in to help push U/W in our favor.
That will be my next mission, lol, find what helps versus Chaplin.
Cheap counters - Dispel/Spell Pierce - possibly? I lost a game the other day because I had to go all in with an Open the Vaults that got shot down by negate. Dispel woulda had it.
I've thought about dropping one Outlander from the board, not sure what I'd replace it with though.
Honestly, they aren't needed verse Jund. I believe without a doubt in my mind they are our easy match-up.
The Firewalker would be better over the Outlander of course, but more often than not the WW would be harder to get than WU. Atleast for me.
The reason they are in there for those 2 match ups is because one of those match ups is our second worse. Now don't get me wrong, with the addition of the Rest for the Wearys I don't know if we need to stack all the red hate like previously. It would take more playtesting verse RDW to get a confident answer. Unfortunately none of my local buddies plays RDW, so I normally only see it in tourneys. I don't call MTGO, reasonable playtesting...too many wannabes running PT decks.
If someone would want to test the Firewalker, or if someone has easy access to RDW, then I would love if they could test them out and let us know how it works, or even if we need any Pro-Red verse them. I may just be scared, and semi-unfamiliar with the match up, and indeed it might be costing me some SB spots I can devote to something else.
If RDW/Boros are completely unwinnable matches, even with the outlander out of the side, there probably isn't that much point to using them. I think that something that should be investigated is putting Path to Exile in the board instead.
Instant speed removal is highly relevant versus these matchups, and esp for RDW, they can't do that much with the extra land. It'd also give us some more flexibility in other matchups, potentially. At the very least it'd have to be more flexible than a Pro-Red Bear.
Just my thoughts on it, I should try and get some testing done against RDW, my friend's got the cards to build it, so might as well.
I'm considering Outlander in the board, but you don't even bring it in for Jund. I don't really want to commit the sideboard slots for something that I only want in 2 matchups.
Outlander is an artifact, but I can't help but think I'd rather have Firewalker if I did play a pro red dude..
One of your matchups further pushes the idea of running all/most basic lands. I've never really had a problem with getting a color, other than maybe black, that I don't think we have a need with all the nons. With MB Vamps, U/W Control, WW all running Tectonic Edge, and Jund, RDW, Barely Boros, and some Grixis Counter/Burn all running Riunblaster, I believe it's just safer to play basics.
Given this, I'm wondering what the thought behind running the borderposts is? I get that it would technically dodge Ruinblaster / Tectonic Edge, but is it worth it to open up for say, O Ring or Maelstrom Pulse?
The advantage gained seems marginal because you only run one of each, so does it make the deck less consistent?
Everyone, for the revised version of the OP, replace "ripping up" with "doing moderately well on"
Oh, for some reason I was thinking shroud instead of unblockable. Yeah, they're not going in anymore.
Do you have a list you can post? I'd be interested to see your removal suite.
This list is great, I'm really only on the fence about the manabase. I may go ahead and squeeze in the whatsit, creeping tarpits over some catacombs. Imagine - they turn 4 ruinblaster and you're like "Tap 3, activate pits!"
Haven't tested that, but it seems hot.
Anyway, your build is just different.. more controllish with Negates and Scullers MD. I may test the scullers, but I'm not entirely convinced.
I don't want to let little guys like Hierarch ramp them. I like having the exec caps to deal with them, along with journey. I guess they still ramp if they're on the play, but if you go first, it's all upside.
Weigh it then.. if colonnades work better and you aren't scared of the LD, go for it.
Sure.. or Negate the jace. Or Dispel. Or whatever.
Great card in RDW matchup. 1 card 8 matches their most card efficient burn - the hell's thunder which is 1 for 8. It's got utility in other matchups like Turbofog/UW Control.
True story
Hardcast Architects can win games by buying you time. You reorder + get a blocker.
I think I did underestimate the impact of ramping vs. vulnerability. This is a good point, and 3 chalices have been added to my deck.
Cigarette and I have been running ex-caps as maindeck "instant speed removal." Of course they can get played around, but returning them with OtV is sick. I do NOT want to give my opponents land, especially if it gets them counter mana, or whatever. Plus, what do you do vs a Noble Hierarch? Just laugh?
1) As you said, getting that early OtV can be really important. I loved Colonnade in my slower build, as another wincon, but to streamline the deck I cut it. Partly the vulnerability, but it's disheartening to topdeck it for your 6th land you needed to cast OtV with.
2) Pithing needle may be an option that needs to be explored, but I think O Ring suffices enough of the time.
3) I've cut Vedalken Outlander as well, but I put in the Rest for the Weary / Sanguine Bond combo in, that I didn't have. I'm up in the air about my board right now. Trying to squeeze in Dispel/Path to Exile in the board maybe.
My current iteration of this:
5 Island
5 Plains
2 Drowned Catacob
3 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
3 Glassdust Hulk
2 Filigree Angel
4 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Architects of Will
1 Sharuum the Hegemon
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Day of Judgment
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Journey to Nowhere
3 Courier's Capsule
4 Spreading Seas
3 Executioner's Capsule
3 Everflowing Chalice
1 Day of Judgment
3 Flashfreeze
4 Negate
3 Celestial Purge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sanguine Bond
2 Rest for the Weary
EDIT: Also, Sharuum is a boss, especially if they didn't see it game 1. You have negate? I don't care, play Sharuum and return Sphinx of the Steel Win!
I think posts/chalices are vulnerable to a lot, everything from O Rings to Duress.
Quick list of things that run O-Rings/Duress/Pulse/Artifact Destruction
UW Control
3 O Rings Main
Jund
3-4 Maelstrom Pulse
Possible Duress in the side
Boss Naya:
2 O Rings Main
1 O Ring Side
GW Aggro
3 O Rings Main
Mythic Bant
3 Bant Charm in the side
Tricked out White Weenie
2 O Rings Main
2 O Rings Side
Vampires
4 Duress Side
Baneslayer Junk
3-4 Pulse
(Last one in the Side)
Some of these matchups don't run the Ruinblasters or Tectonic Edges. I just feel that if you're going to go mostly basics, go mostly basics and don't open yourself to the manascrew on other fronts.
Pretty sure it's necessary to make sure you get the Sanguine Bond to hit big. They have to counter the bond, and if they don't, they have to counter your rests and your OtV. Just another thing they have to waste counters on.
I'm also on the fence about the manabase - I see the value of chalice, but I don't want to keep a hand with 2 lands and a chalice just to see it get O-Ring'd or whatever away. I feel like the nonbasics carry less risk than chalice, while actually getting us colors as well. Running 4 Fortress, 2 Catacombs right now, and it's working pretty well.
I see Cigarette's SB plan is:
U/W Control: -3 Journey -3 DoJ
+2 Rest for the Weary +1 Sanguine Bond +3 Negate
Which makes sense to get the negates and alternate wincon in, but I'm not sure what the UW gusy will board in.
Does it seem safer to drop the executioner's capsule too? Or do we want to have a way to deal with Iona naming white?
I think dropping Journey is probably the right play, but I'm not sure about DoJ, incase they board in Jwar Jwar Sphinx.
Could we run a telemin performance just in case?
Cheap counters - Dispel/Spell Pierce - possibly? I lost a game the other day because I had to go all in with an Open the Vaults that got shot down by negate. Dispel woulda had it.
If RDW/Boros are completely unwinnable matches, even with the outlander out of the side, there probably isn't that much point to using them. I think that something that should be investigated is putting Path to Exile in the board instead.
Instant speed removal is highly relevant versus these matchups, and esp for RDW, they can't do that much with the extra land. It'd also give us some more flexibility in other matchups, potentially. At the very least it'd have to be more flexible than a Pro-Red Bear.
Just my thoughts on it, I should try and get some testing done against RDW, my friend's got the cards to build it, so might as well.
Outlander is an artifact, but I can't help but think I'd rather have Firewalker if I did play a pro red dude..
Given this, I'm wondering what the thought behind running the borderposts is? I get that it would technically dodge Ruinblaster / Tectonic Edge, but is it worth it to open up for say, O Ring or Maelstrom Pulse?
The advantage gained seems marginal because you only run one of each, so does it make the deck less consistent?