So I'm guessing cards that generate triggers during the Draw step aren't good includes? Ie., Howling Mine and variants?Quote from Stairc »As stated in the article, the auction step [replaces the draw step.
Well, the reason I asked is that if you don't combine the graveyards, then the dredge player gets to mill the single library solely into his own 'yard, meaning he is the only one who reaps any advantages from linear synergies of graveyard based effects like Threshold etc., etc.That sounds like a neat series of house-rules to make dredge cards more interesting in this format. It’s a lot of added rules to put in just to make one ability work, so for the official version I probably wouldn’t include it, but you should give it a try and let us know how it plays. You can do all sorts of cool things with house rules.
So basically you're saying tribes didn't fit well with your design goal of favoring highly diverse creature p/t totals, so as to allow a player on the ropes to find a blocker to "recover" with? I see what you're saying.Oddly, tribal often doesn’t work that well in our block because in MTG tribal tends to be designed to power up an army of a lot of little creatures. Goblin tribal is very hard to work in for that reason, though a block that was full of lots of tribes would probably have a lot of creatures about the same size and would likely work well. We’ve tried to work in a subtle amount of beast tribal, since beasts are a very diverse tribe with lots of sizes, but MTG doesn’t have many tribal cards that work perfectly for our existing auction block.
Agreed! Same for me. I have a knack for memorization and recall of cards and while many of my friends are in fact much better MtG players than me, few of them have my recall, and they all gave up on Mental Magic when it was clear that the playing field was ridiculously tilted in my favor. Still hoping someday I'll find someone else with thousands of cards rattling around in their brain from a misspent youth and can actually try out Mental Magic for real!Unfortunately, the skill gap in actually playing it between someone that’s prepped and someone that hasn’t is very punishing. Makes it difficult to find a good game, and actual gameplay often results in frustration (as because there’s always a way out, almost everything is an on-board trick you feel frustrated for not being able to remember). I’ve had a lot more fun preparing to play the format than actually playing it.
Welcome to the forums, hanasparuch!
Well, I do recommend crypt vs. control and the mirror. But DU has its adherents and they do have a good point. Against your typical creature-attack decks, you will both draw seven but you will draw seven relevant cards and they will draw some number of useless duds simply because this deck denies interaction with the opponent on a variety of levels. Yes, it resets the milling, but it doesn't get rid of your control permanents, so you can just start over on milling. You'd be surprised how many cards you can mill in a single turn with two dictates, two tutelages, and a Treasure Cruise. It doesn't take many turns. DU is mostly used as a panic button when you're out of fogs and failed to draw a new one. Previously the deck's only option in that situation was to extend the hand.
Heh, now if only Elixir were in Standard... feel free to join me in my letter-writing campaign petitioning WotC to reprint it again!
Extra turn effects are indeed a staple of the t-fog archetype, it's true. I just think that TempTres is tempting you (geddit?) into an unwise deckbuilding decision. To get it down to a reasonable cost for an extra turn effect - ie., Time Warp's CMC 5 - you have to delve an absolutely crazy 6 cards. That is a whoooooole lot for an extra turn. Cruise, by comparison, draws three guaranteed and only requires delving 4 or 5 to make its cost reasonable. What if you draw TempTres and don't have Dictates? Will you really burn it as the World's Most Expensive Cantrip? I think the card is just plain overcosted. It's a pity because I would love to emulate the old Time Sieve deck of yore that I have such fond memories of making my friends miserable with back in Lorwyn. But for that they need to reprint Time Warp. It's not like it's out of the realm of possibility after all. They just basically reprinted Timetwister, fachrissakes. If they pretend Time Warp is "too good" they're just being coy and dishonest, as usual.
I can see from your other quote you already spotted your error with Narset. White is still a useful splash for the deck though as it adds a lot of toolbox options, from a true wrath to better lifegain to wide-ranging permanent removal. I have been on Bant (UGw) for the entire time now and see no reason to change. I may test the Simic build this Friday but I don't expect it to be better.
I don't much like any of the present group of 'walkers in this deck, not even the popular Kiora. Narset is another "meh" for me since her abilities aren't relevant enough to t-fog's needs, since we play most of our spells during the opponent's turn. Still, though, rebounding a Cruise or End Hostilities would be pretty fun.
Anyway, again, welcome!
You don't sound like you've played the deck. Marauder is an additional threat forcing the opponent to choose how to block. Ie., if you swing with two Husks and they have one blocker, they're dead no matter what. If you swing with one husk and one Marauder, same deal (although sac'ing guys only gives the Marauder one "virtual" +1/+1 per rather than two... but he also gets pumps from everyone you already sacrificed to Fleshbags, and anyone milled in by the Wayfinders, which Husk doesn't.
Basically you only sac to Husk when you have to, or after blocks. The deck operates by forcing your opponent to make impossible blocking decisions based on zero information, then you get to respond and funnel all your power into whoever they didn't block. Marauder is basically Husks #5+. He definitely helps the gameplan. If you Rally back a team and fleshbag all but one of their guys, but you only have one husk, then they can just block your husk and you can't kill them. So having more husks is good.
As to balance, personally I'd go 3/3. Marauder is better on the defense since its deathtouch means it can take a much bigger creature out on chump blocks (Siege Rhino anyone?). Which means Marauder is a good speedbump or defensive play against a faster aggro deck. It's also stronger against red since unlike Husk it can never be taken out by a well-timed Wild Slash. My problem with Jagago's list above is too few Husks, resulting in difficulty fully exploiting liliana and Haruspex. Really I'd like 4x Husk but don't want to drop to 2x Marauder and am not sure what else to cut.
Finally, I'm curious if anyone here has any plan against TurboFog other than scoop? I see a few Dromoka's Commands here and there but that alone can't win that matchup. Is T-Fog just unwinnable? An Elves variant would seem to have a lot more game against T-Fog since it has Shaman and that one drop Elf version of Pulse Tracker. Those can get past fogs. Husk and Marauder can't.
I agree, Bant is the way to go. We lose so little (just Radiant Fountain really) and gain so much (access to a superior removal + lifegain suite). Mostly sideboard options.
Well, the list I was responding to had 2 Day's. I don't really see Learn as "replacing" Day's, since they serve different purposes. Day's is a card advantage engine that explicitly turns its back on the mill scheme in exchange for short-term survival. Ie., when you Day's, you are saying "I won't mill you out just yet, I need to draw more fogs right now". Learn is much more mill-oriented since it's one sided, only you reshuffle. So Learn is a card that is focused on winning mill wars in the mirror and vs. control, while Day's is more useful vs. aggressive decks with creatures where your turbo effects reap you the most virtual card advantage (ie., you draw gas while they draw blanks) and your need for constant access to fogs is most pressing.
Also, I know this isn't a budget forum, but Day's is quite a stack of cash at the moment...
I'm only going to say this once. Here is why FlipJace sucks in T-Fog:
Jace just mystifies me. How can one possibly keep him alive to flip, when the opponent's hand is literally stuffed with removal that has nowhere else to go? You drop him, they wild slash him. You drop him, they Murderous Cut him. Etc., etc. It's not like you can just cast him on t2 and hope they brick on removal, because on t3 you're not going to have 5 cards in your yard to flip him yet, meaning his ass has to hang out over the abyss of death for a few more turns.
So realistically you drop him on t4/5 with counter mana up to protect him. But people who think you can get away with that must not have much experience with t-fog, since t4/5 are the most critical turns, where you are likely critically low on life and the opponent is trying to kill you before you can establish control. You can't afford to be wasting mana on anything that isn't a fog or wrath.
Conclusion: you have to drop him on t7+, so you can afford him (2) plus a counter to protect him (2/3) plus a fog to not Just Die (tm) (2). And even then they'll probably just double up removal on him anyway. Remember: them spending two removals to kill your flipwalker is NOT card disadvantage for them if their removals would otherwise have been blanks. By providing them a worthy target you just turned their cards ON, giving virtual card advantage BACK to them.
And what do you even get if you somehow pull off the Herculean task of getting Jace flipped? You get... umm... A plus ability that "blunts" one creature per turn, but probably won't be enough to save you from having to fog. A minus ability that can reuse a Cruise but not much else (since it says "this turn" it's useless with fogs, spouts, and counters). And an emblem that takes 4 turns to acquire. So, t7 cast, t8 flip, t12 emblem. At that point, an on-cast trigger that mills them five seems fun, but what about the games you punt because you spent a counter trying futilely to protect Jace and then they resolve an Ugin and you don't have a counter any more? (Ugin -0 wipes flipwalkers... fun fact.) What about the games where you draw Jace and he just gets instantly shot and did nothing but waste time and mana? His emblem is win-more and it just takes too much work to get to it. Better to focus on the Tutelage mill plan and run more solid, flexible supporting cast cards that help you survive to get to the point where Tutelage wins.
Jace is flat-out terrible in this deck. The correct number to run is zero. I can see him in the board vs. the mirror, but frankly I'd rather just have Tormod's Crypt in the mirror - it's harder to counter and breaks Day's Undoings in our favor. Jace is too hard to flip, turns on enemy's otherwise blank removal, can't flip early, jams up mana on critical turns or else comes out too late to do any good, lesser abilities aren't that relevant, emblem is slow and win-more. Frankly Kiora's a better PW for this deck and I don't even consider her to be worth running.
/rant
As for Talent, it is such a narrow card that it's clear anyone running it main is either making a very specific metagame call, or is smoking dope. If you maindeck Talent and get paired against Elves you're going to be very sad every time you draw it. So it's dependent on your meta. At my LGS there are a few control and tfog players but mostly elves and naya legends / mono red aggro players, with some abzan stuff. I'd never maindeck Talent against that field.
The Whelming Waves are good but could be better in the board depending on your meta. If Heroic is around you need them, if not you can live without. They're generally terrible against Elves (another deck you really want Dissipate against, since you can get rid of Shaman permanently preventing recursion), because bouncing their elves lets them recast for more triggers.
In the board I really like your Grindclocks and Reality Shifts, but you should consider Swan Songs or Negates. Negate handles everything RecSage handles, at instant speed, and for cheaper. Also, cut the Hornet Nests. I ran them for months, trying vainly to make them be good. They aren't. They're frankly terrible. Most decks just have too much removal to board it all out, it'll often die before it gets to block anything. Better to run Orbs of Warding to blunt combat and deny burn / thoughtseize.
Nothing about Liliana PW, or Deathmist / Den Protector recurring, can get past Defend the Hearth / Winds of Qal Sisma. They can have all the "value" they want, heck, Dictate is already feeding them extra cards, the point is that 2/2 and 3/3 bodies are irrelevant. Maybe if they're using the Den Prot to keep recurring Shaman of the Pack with Elves. But that's why I run Dissipate to counter+exile Shaman so it can never recur.
Basically, against Abzan I worry about Siege Rhino and not much else, since Aetherspouting a Rhino is rough. But sometimes I'll do that if I know I can untap with Dissipate ready.
I'm trying to be certain of what happens if I cast Rally X=3 returning multiple Liliana, Heretical Healer at the same time. I believe the following happens: the game requires you to choose and put in the graveyard all but one copy of her. This generates one or more triggers for her since she "sees" nontoken creatures dying. So the one you don't put in the graveyard, flips.
That all seems fairly straightforward. Here is the real question: will Rally still exile that Lili at the beginning of my next upkeep? It says "exile those creatures", not "exile those cards", so it seems to me like it should "overlook" Lili PW since she's no longer a creature at that point. But can anyone confirm this?
Not a bad idea. It has the advantage of not dying to enchantment + creature removal or wraths, which is big. The trouble is its lifegain doesn't "turn on" very early compared to Ram, and against the deck we *most want* lifegain to handle - mono-red - it's actually *least useful*, since they usually board out dudes and bring in more burn against us. Some mono-red decks go down to as few as 10-12 creatures after board against us, meaning our average per-turn lifegain from Memento + Tutelage is low. I love it against Elves, though, since it strongly counteracts their "reach" from Shaman of the Pack, which is really their only relevant card against us. And unlike red, Elves cannot board out creatures without degrading the efficiency of Shaman - meaning Memento will always "hit" strongly on them.
Neat side factor: Memento being an artifact means it takes the same kind of removal as Orbs of Warding, which is a higher priority target of enemies with artifact destruction. So even if your opponent has artifact removal they might hold out for Orbs (especially if they're red), allowing your Memento to survive at least a few turns for lifegaining.
I don't understand how Liliana, Defiant Necromancer is a problem. Her plus ability is a joke against a deck packing 4x Dictate, her minus ability is irrelevant unless it's bringing back Grey Merchant or Shaman of the Pack with sufficient Elves/Devotion (and Lili PW has zero devotion), and her emblem takes 4 turns to acquire (meaning realistically she emblems on turn 8 at the earliest), and even then isn't really great against us. It turns off End Hostilities and that's about it. We can still Fog or Aetherspout (or Whelming Wave!) the enemy's team all day. The only concern with Liliana is her use in the Rally the Ancestors + Nantuko Husk deck, which is still decidedly low tier and still lacks a decent way to convert an infinite/infinite Husk into something that gets past a fog to kill us.
Depends on how many actual mountains you have in your deck... This is for an EDH deck I'm building (Ulasht, the Hate Seed tokens + Warp World and similar craziness); since I was going to have WW and Valakut in the deck anyway, and I don't plan to run many nonbasic lands, it occurred to me that Blood Moon / Magus of the Moon were strong effects to have in the deck so I might as well consider them... With a sufficiently large initial permanent count (say, 25+) I'd have a small but significant chance of hitting Valakut and at least 6 mountains. It might not happen, but then again, it might.
So basically, Magus enters simultaneous to Valakut and shuts it down; but Blood Moon enters after, so Valakut will trigger for any ACTUAL mountains I warp into (but not for nonbasics, which haven't been "mountainized" yet at that point). I think I've got it now.
Trouble is it doesn't pull double duty against Dromoka and other problem cards the way Curse or Reality Shift do.
I forgot about that. Good point!
OK. And, to confirm, Warp World's weird "enchantments last" rule wouldn't make a difference between Magus of the Moon and its elder brother, the original enchantment? Ie., what if the Blood Moon enters after Valakut (per Warp World's text)?
Edit: from the Oracle rulings on Warp World, there is this step-by-step explanation of the process of resolving the spell:
(my bold for emphasis.)
Notice that all the artifacts, lands, and creatures enter the battlefield simultaneously in step 4, but then all the enchantments enter the battlefield simultaneously in step 5. Doesn't that mean Valakut would be on the battlefield during step 4 *before* Blood Moon arrives?
But what if some effect puts the Valakut, the mountains, and Magus onto the field simultaneously, as the resolution of the same effect? Such as, for example, Warp World? Essentially: would Valakut "stay Valakut" long enough to put its triggers on the stack, or would it never be anything but a Mountain?
Follow-up: since WW specifically puts enchantments onto the battlefield last, would this make a functional difference between Warping into Valakut + Magus vs. Warping into Valakut + Blood Moon itself? Or will these two scenarios be more or less equally useful/useless?
I don't like Aetherspouting a Manifest guy because now the opponent knows more about their topdeck than I do.The trouble with Curse is it's a bit expensive for what you get. Still, with two Orbs out you live the dream: replacing dangerous creatures with effective blanks. The only downside is the sorcery speed (which is no downside against Dromoka since you can't Reality Shift Dromoka on their turn), but may be relevant against some other important targets. I dunno. I think I may test it. Even with one Orbs out it could be worth it. Could be good against Elves too since Boar tokens don't count for Shaman of the Pack.Good idea!
edit: corrected
I just don't see a place for Jace in this deck. He dies to every removal ever and can't transform unless he lives to untap. We have no way to give him haste without adding duds to the deck. He's just a two-mana do-nothing. If you draw him early you might - MIGHT - luck out and see him transform. Or not. If you draw him late, not only will he definitely not transform - due to the 2-4 pieces of removal backed up in the opponent's hand - but he might also get you killed if what you needed to draw right then was a fog or a wrath. I'm not saying the deck must be creatureless, but the creatures we run need to either be VERY hard to kill (Thassa / PLA) or provide a significant advantage immediately (Resolute Archangel) such that we don't care if they die. Jace is neither.
Also, there is no need to run Caryatids, which just die in wraths. If you really desperately want ramp, run some sort of ramp spell that adds a land or enchants a land to tap for more, green has plenty of those, and they don't die to wraths. Don't mistake Caryatid's Hexproof for sufficient durability to be playable.
Elves hasn't been a big problem for me yet, but then, I'm mainboarding Dissipates and have a variety of other counters I can bring in to fight Shaman of the Pack. Plus I go up to two Archangels after board for decks that have reach.
Currently testing this, though I have to admit I haven't taken it to an event yet:
4x Defend the Hearth
4x Winds of Qal Sisma
3x Aetherspouts
Draw
4x Dictate of Kruphix
4x Monastery Siege
3x Treasure Cruise
Mill
4x Sphinx's Tutelage
Permission
3x Dissipate
2x Negate
Other
1x Learn from the Past
1x Bow of Nylea
1x Resolute Archangel
2x Orbs of Warding
4x Temple of Mystery
4x Thornwood Falls
2x Yavimaya Coast
4x Tranquil Cove
2x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
4x Island
2x Forest
2x Grindclock
2x Swan Song
1x Resolute Archangel
1x Bow of Nylea
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Talent of the Telepath
3x End Hostilities
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Negate
This is where I'm currently at. As I've said, Heroic is nowhere in my LGS meta right now so the Waves are out and I cut a Swan Song and a few other anti-aggro goodies. The singleton Crypt is for the mirror. End Hostilities is for decks where I can't afford to bounce their guys (Elves and any deck with Rhino come to mind). Strokes are for decks with Ugin as well as Dragons. Grindclocks replace two Tutelages against Ugin decks as a win-con they can't easily wipe. The Bow comes in against red replacing the Learn from the Past; despite being legendary it's worth it to me to get Bow online quickly as it just wins games. I tend to cut dictates for extra lifegain, turn at least one Siege onto tax mode, and just grind them out. They usually sideboard in all their conditional burn expecting me to feed them tons of cards, instead I don't give them any, I gain 3 per turn, have double Archangel, and their spells cost more or I gain hexproof, making me unkillable except by creatures.
I don't have any Archives or Day's Undoings yet, so I haven't had a chance to test with them. I'm not sure what I might cut for them, honestly, the deck is pretty tight. I know I pretty much always want access to Archangel maindeck. A lot of players just scoop on the spot when you resolve it right after a wrath effect, and that saves a lot of time, which is important for a deck that goes to time so often.
As you can see, pretty similar to mine! I like the Feed the Clans, but if you're running those you should be running Thassa or Pearl Lake Ancient in order to be able to take advantage of Ferocious. I usually run Thassa, have done so for months, but am testing without her for now since the fourth Siege works together with Tutelage in a way that Thassa doesn't. Still though, it's nice to have a 5/5 unblockable for killing walkers with.
Love Talent of the Telepath, especially against red where you steal their burn and deploy it against their own guys. Good against some decks with black also if you can afford to pay 2 life for their Thoughtseize. The only problem is, if they reveal 2 Thoughtseizes, you have to decide whether or not to put them both on the stack before you resolve the first one, which means you may be stuck resolving a second Thoughtseize that doesn't have a target worth taking. Still, odds are good they will have at least one decent card in hand due to your Dictate. If you can catch an Ugin in hand this way you're golden. A smart control player will just counter the Talent rather than letting it resolve because if you hit double thoughtseize they will need two counters to save their Ugin. And Ugin is really the whole game in that m/u, barring sideboarded Ashioks.
Again, as I said above in this thread, stop running bad cards like Revealing Wind and Clash of Wills and maybe you'll do better.
Let me put it to you this way: back when I was new to competitive play in Lorwyn/Shards Standard, I ran Broken Ambitions in my Cruel Control deck. Broken Ambitions is a strictly better Clash of Wills. And I eventually realized the card sucked and was not helping my deck. Standard has only gotten faster and more competitive since then. Why would I want to run a card that is strictly inferior to a card that was already bad seven years ago?
You didn't go up against any decks with Ugin or Dragons. Of course it failed - it had nothing relevant to counter. But that was a bad meta call, not the card's fault.
Don't beat yourself up, Heroic is almost unwinnable. The ONLY tool I've found that works against it is Whelming Wave. It lets you "wrath" a turn earlier than they're expecting. They are expecting End Hostilities or Aetherspouts, so on their t4 (assuming they have the play) they will swing, buff, etc., etc. and might not leave up more than 1 mana for Gods Willing to stop B-Light or R-Shift. But Whelming Wave can't be stopped by any 1-cost spell in their deck except Stubborn Denial. If they don't have it, you reset their board. They lose all their auras and +1/+1 counters, which is crushing for them.
Also, Swan Song in the board is really helpful against them as well. It can stop any of their auras and it can counter Stubborn Denial at a fair cost, allowing you to fog or wrath successfully.
It all depends on how much Heroic you expect to see. It's pretty rare at my LGS right now, everyone's sick of it, so I'm running basically no protection against it and just gambling on not facing it to save sideboard space for other matchups.
Why would we need naturalize? Tormod's Crypt is cheaper, thus harder to counter, and does a better job of what we want. It stops their reshuffle, but it itself doesn't exile when activated. So we get stronger and keep reshuffling until their library is small enough to mill out in one or two turns. Crypt on our turn can also shut off their Delve for Cruise, preventing them from refilling their hand easily. So as soon as I get 15-20 cards in their yard, I will crypt immediately if they aren't representing enough mana for Learn from the Past. I don't want to see them untap and Cruise.
Since I'm running a white splash I'd rather test Hold At Bay if I want another fog. It stops a fixed 7 damage, which is often enough to save your life, and what's more important, it can stop burn spells, not just combat.
But really, 8 fogs is enough, especially when you add in pseudo-fog Aetherspouts.
When do they only have one threat? Against Dragons, Thunderbreak ruins her ability. Heroic can prevent it with their instants. That leaves Abzan and G/x Nykthos type decks as the only decks with "big threat" creatures she can stop. Most decks I am playing against these days are swinging with swarms of Elves or Goblin tokens every turn, Kiora tends to die immediately. I suppose we could wait to turn 6 so we can protect her with a fog, but I'd rather run cards that don't need help from other cards to do well, so I don't need to worry about what order I draw them in.
I like this, this is close to my list albeit missing the white splash. I think 3 Learns is a bit extreme, you really only need one Learn and one Bow, or two Learns. They can shuffle each other in.
Sounds great! This is about what I'd run if I were on Simic. One thing, make sure you have an answer to Ashiok, she can be trouble. Maybe test some Display of Dominance?
Out of 24 lands, I find running one plains, one flooded strand, and 6 W/U taplands (4 lifegain and two temple) does pretty well at hitting double white frequently enough while not hampering my ability to make UU for dictate or GG for Bow. Since we have access to fogs and spouts, End Hostilities doesn't *have* to land perfectly on t5, and against many decks you won't even want it to (Dragons won't have enough on board by then to be worth wrathing, usually). But Resolute Archangel often really needs to hit by t7 on time, and the 8/24 white sources have made this pretty easy for me. And btw, Archangel is THE lifegain card for this deck, and its gain DOES double with Archive. So if you're on 5 life with Archive and resolve Archangel, you will gain (15 x 2 = 30) life, going to 35.
Really, there's not. Standard is a much more limited format than modern and currently, with the exception (as usual) of RDW, there really aren't any Standard viable decks that have "reach" - the ability to kill you outside of attack steps. (other than this deck itself, of course.) W/B Underworld Coinsmith / Grim Guardian decks could do it, if those decks weren't just too slow and too terrible against the rest of the field. Temur Combo may try to Crater's Claws you out but a simple Negate handles that. So basically most decks in Standard kill you with creature attacks, which fogs deny. Modern is a much more varied format with lots of decks that can attack you from a variety of angles, ignoring or limiting your fogs. Everything from decks that storm out into Grapeshot and decks that Through the Breach an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn at you. I really doubt you will be able to make T-Fog a viable deck in that format.