Sam Black's new brew crafted to hate on U/W Flash. I am 110% running this with confidence at GP Charleston this weekend, tested it in paper last night til 3 am mostly against a Grixis based Control buddy.
This build is the most flexible and probably most enjoyable midrange I've played yet. I can't stress the flexibility enough, this deck has so many possible lines of play depending on a given situation, if you need to durdle and defend for a turn or two, you have ways to do it. If you need to apply pressure, there's ways to do that too. If you need to reload your hand, go for it. If you need to grab a Cavern of Souls/Vault for next turn, you can even somewhat do that. It's not flexible just because I'm a Johnny player and like having options and being tricksy, I say it's flexible because you have so many ways to just reload, keep going, and keep finding different ways to win.
Understanding that this deck is "true midrange" is imperative - you can't durdle just because something bigger is in hand and it feels safer to just wait and play it, if you have a window of attack, you take it generally. Gears need to be shifted at many points in the game, and when you are the beatdown in the given match, this deck allows you to BE the beatdown - thanks to more efficient 2-4 drop creatures rather than relying entirely on bombs. Playing "true midrange" rather than 6-8x bombs in the deck, it should go without saying, but you're far less prone to being blown out and subject to gigantic tempo losses.
The strongest points here are elements of various decks I've been trying to fit into one deck for a very long time now:
-Rancor mainboarded as a 3-of. Absolutely catches people off guard, and makes Thragtusk into a respectable finisher all on his own. He is a terrible finisher by himself, but trample, 7 power, and pseudo-undying change everything. Still weak to Rakdos Keyrune, but that's okay because..
-Loxodon Smiter mainboard 4. We've been wanting a list that could run 4 over the healer for the longest time, and this list uses it to it's fullest effect. I really couldn't want much more from a single beater - on his own he stops aggro alone in the early turns, doesn't die to Searing Spear unlike Centaur Healer is huge. Again with Rancor, this guy goes from good to devastating. Also, amazing synergy with ..
-Disciple of Bolas: 2-of. With Restoration Angel as a 2-of, I think this is absolutely perfect. With the theme of this deck, it wants to play AGGRESSIVE MIDRANGE *or* value/big midrange, whichever opportunity is better at the time, and will find a way to win. Smiter+Rancor make incredible value out of Disciple, and I wish we could run 3. But the point here is, a 2-2 split of Disciple and Angel gives you utility options. Sometimes keeping 4 open and playing defensively with a flicker target ready is the better play, sometimes proactively sacrificing and drawing is superior. We want the best of both worlds here. 1x extra Resto Angel in SB is very much a nod towards aggro, if it's prudent simply swap a Disciple for the extra Angel if you feel you need more defensive utility.
2x Unburial Rites - Not too much needs to be said here, one could justify running 3, but I wouldn't want to dilute threats from the deck. We're playing it to milk extra card advantage out of our creatures, not because we're reanimator. It's also great insurance/card advantage vs Jund. (Smiter too). Huge side benefit, they may board in graveyard hate, you likely board unburial rites out for G2/3 vs control anyway.
Utilizing 4x Farseek+4x Grisly Salvage as a "ramp package" with 23 lands and 4x Deathrite Shaman: This is the #1 thing I've been looking to do and this list makes it not only possible, but smooth and ideal. I can honestly say out of some 20-30 games last night, I lost two due to land screw. I had to mulligan perhaps twice as well, and one of those lost to land screw was when my opening hand was 7 lands.
-Lotleth Troll: Special shout out to the 1-of man. This list really wants to play gradually along the 2-3-4 curve early, rather than trying to accelerate from 1-3-5-7 CMC, and another efficient 2 drop seems to be ideal; we absolutely want early plays rather than too many heavy plays / waiting for the ramp to come. Lotleth Troll is really more of a 3 drop though, BBG, you want regeneration mana up for him all the time especially when you've built your board. We couldn't ask for more of this guy, and I wish there was room to run a full set of him over Lingering Souls perhaps, but the Lingering Souls have been all stars as well. It's not worth sideboarding extras, Lotleth simply goes a very long way for being another 2 drop guy that's surprisingly valuble+resilient even late game. Another reason to just keep him as a 1-of, this deck does not want to ever discard creatures to him unless it's specifically with Unburial Rites ready to go. He's done his job if all he does is block enemy Thragtusks all day+regenerates. After a sweeper and him surviving, he's done his job again, the board is reset, he's still alive, and he goes to town strapped with Rancor. I ran a full 4 of these bastards in my straight GB build for the exact same reasons, simply he's one of the best 2-3 drop efficient/resilient aggressive creatures.
Any ramp based list does not mulligan well at all, and probably 9 times out of 10 you don't want to, but the keepable hands have absolutely blown me away. Grisly Salvage alone can make something you'd want to mull suddenly a keeper - simply by ensuring you hit your 3rd land. Being able to specifically grab Cavern of Souls when needed or Vault of the Archangel has been huge as well. The digging through the deck is a huge way to gain some information about what to expect coming up since you're thinning, plus able to fetch a threat with it when needed. 5 out of 5 all star card here. Deathrite Shaman isn't really acceleration until Salvage, and that's perfectly fine. This list plays gradually up along the 3-4-5 curve, it isn't trying to go 1-3-5-7.
Keepable hands vs losses to land screw seem to be 9 to 1 so far with 23 lands, not to mention WAY less cases of "I need to draw anything besides a land right now".
With respect to Grand Prix Charleston coming up this weekend I'm pretty much tunnel vision focused on my own brew, but I hope to direct anyone else looking to give this variation a try. Any questions whatseover on this list if you are playing competitively in the coming future, fire away.
Main goal here - figure out the sideboard game plan for our 3-4 most problematic matchups. I don't want cards that are good in a vacuum against another deck's certain cards, I set out to construct a very specific plan.
Will have to update and make more notes here in a second post. Continued!
#1 GWB Craterhoof Reanimator. I'm calling this as our #1 boogeyman, the match is just too swingy for my own comfort level if they run Craterhoof heavy. 4x Deathrite Shaman main is a serious nod towards this, and may be our saving grace.
First off Cassial, it was awesome running into you on Cockatrice...what are the odds, haha
Hot damn, that's a nice take on Junk! I've been wanting a reason to run Grisly Salvage and Deathrite Shaman for some time now but didn't think it fit with my plan. I've already switched my list up to run 4x Smiters and 2x Caverns maindeck and this is able to run both in addition to the other cards I just mentioned as well as Rancor. Seems good
I would like to tweak this list slightly though to maybe include Selesyna Charm as that has just been fantastic for me. And I'm not ready to give up my 3x Vault of the Archangels at this time - they're just too much of a blowout every time I land one. I took out Gavony Township long ago and never looked back...also 4x Cavern seems like it wants to be 3x at most. So maybe there's the room i need for my 3x Vaults.
Sam Black always comes up with inspiring decks and this is no exception. Giving this a whirl later for sure.
3 pages in and how am I the first one to say Azorius Aggro??? That deck is bonkers! It's faster than Zombies and RDW by a mile. The only deck that rivals its speed is GW aggro which share a lot of the same cards.
Hey dude, quick reply on all of these points, main thing I wanted to mention was on your sideboard. I definitely have to say cards like Purify the Grave and even to an extent, Vraska herself are low priority for us. Don't get me wrong, Vraska is a definite +2 in this matchup if you see them use walkers G1, what I'm trying to get at, first and foremost you want cards that apply pressure to them before putting in "what if they do this to me" cards. I strongly recommend no less than 3x Primal Hunter in any given control matchup for this reason - he will start applying pressure, and put them on tilt if gone unanswered long enough, simply by himself. Plus he's your draw engine, and makes the rest of the deck just work - and you draw into your sideboard solutions. Garruk just comes first in my book.
You definitely want to sideboard out your 2x Ultimate Price, I'm surprised you didn't or maybe you forgot to mention you did. Or just turn it into 2x Sever the Bloodline as Entreat Angel insurance, but I never need more than 2x Severs as spot removal vs control. In this matchup, I even feel your 4x Centaur Healers could've done better than what you sided in, they're not *huge* and they're not *deal with me or die* type threats, but, they are solid, and will smack a Jace well enough in the early game. Or they drop Tamiyo to tap it down, then you respond by tapping out to drop Garruk/Vraska. You know the drill! You have to have a threat in the first place before you worry about how they're going to answer our threats. (Are they going to Sphere me or Verdict me etc, how do I protect against that dreaded Sphere! Bring in more Decays!?)
I'd suggest cutting your 4x Gatecreeper Vines instead of the Healers - against control this is arguably the most dead draw in the deck, even over the healer. You're simply paying 2 to fetch a land, it just isn't good enough in this matchup, especially since we actually have time to do real ramps should we draw into them.
I would agree with cutting 1-2x Angel of Serenity like you did, she's simply way too variable in the control MU to be enough value to run her. Too many times you play her with absolutely nothing to exile, sometimes you yourself have nothing in the yard to get back with her. You can't afford to just hold back a bomb because it won't generate enough value. In this instance Sigarda really outclasses her - same body, way harder to interact with, comes down sooner etc etc. Anyway keep up the good work good sir!
Don't quote me on what i boarded in exactly, I may have gotten one or two cards mixed up
To be more clear, this deck I'm talking about is the more aggro UWR build, not the Todd Anderson control build.
But yes the Ultimate Prices were intentional because their creatures are Snappy, Geist, Resto and Thundermaw Hellkite and Ultimate Price hits 3 out of the 4 as well as Angel tokens. These builds don't play Jace or Tamiyo MD. Most times they'll tap out for Thundermaw Hellkite which I was able to kill immediately with the Price.
And I kept the Severs in the SB since they don't play Entreat.
Vraska came in in case they brought in Jace and/or Tamiyo, not sure if they would against me. I'm just starting to learn how this deck runs and what they'd bring in against us.
Thinking about it now, I may have taken out Decays also...they play 2 or 3 Detention Spheres and no Terminus. Can't remember exactly...I'll take better notes next time
Tested my list pretty extensively versus GW Aggro over the weekend. In fact when I say tested extensively, I mean every single round I got paired up against the same GW Aggro list. I was not happy about that. Most games usually went Forest > Mana Dork...Sunpetal Grove > Smiter...Temple Garden > Silverblade Paladin > Rancor...dead. It's a pretty terrible feeling answering an opponent's Smiter with a Farseek, haha.
So every match, I boarded in 2x Ultimate Price, 2x Curse of Death's Hold, 1x Golgari Charm and 2x Primal Hunter. Out of the three matches I played against this deck, I only won one and it was because I saw all my Ultimate Price's every game. I almost eeked out a second win after landing a Curse but then got mana flooded for the next 8 turns (I had an 8/10 Gatecreeper Vine and still lost).
Even though this deck was super fast, I feel as long as we can hit our land drops every turn and find at least one removal spell, we have a lot better chance at winning. Just about any creature we can draw is better than any of theirs. Because of this, I'm leaning towards Cassial's newest list that see's Sever moved to the board for Ultimate Price in the MD. Rancor is a thing and one of the only ways we have to get rid of it is instant-speed removal or O-Ring. Surviving that initial onslaught means we get a real shot to take over the mid-late game.
I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Abrupt Decay in the MD as a catch-all for aggro and control's Sphere/O-Ring plan. It just hits almost everything we want in the early game. Just about every deck has something useful we can take out. This would also free up more SB room. I do like Ultimate Price too but not being able to hit a Smiter sucks. But I still think it has MD potential. Not thinking about SB yet, here's a list I'm thinking of changing to:
I feel adding more removal makes a MD Garruk Relentless redundant. So both of him come out for 2x Abrupt Decay. Just about any creature I'd hit with Garruk, besides a Knight of Glory, can be taken out with Decay. Then Sever the Bloodline goes over to the board for 1x Ultimate Price and the other Ultimate Price comes in for one of my two Gavony Townships, taking me down to 24 lands. Not once did I get mana screwed but a couple times I flooded out hard. Maybe this is still wrong being that we want to hit our land drops every time but I feel the need to test it out.
Anyway, I'm open to critique/suggestions. Don't know how bad this hurricane will put me out without power so I may not be on for a few days
_
So I've doing a lot of testing on Cockatrice with this deck here:
Ever since adding the maindeck Abrupt Decay and Ultimate Price, my aggro matchups have greatly improved. I've taken down pretty much every aggro deck that I've faced including BR Zombies, GB Zombies, GW Populate, etc.
Since going down to 24 lands, I've gotten mana screwed once...which is basically irrelevant since I would get land-screwed at 25 lands. There are still games where I flood out hard anyway. I was skeptical about running 24 lands but so far, it's worked out.
I took out Ranger's Path altogether in favor of Garruk, Primal Hunter which has been a house for me. The draw and resilience against sweepers is invaluable. I could go to three possibly but keeping it at 2 for now.
So now my worst matchup by far is control, namely the UWR control builds that are sprouting up everywhere now. As others in this thread have noted, that is a horrible matchup even if we have an ideal opening hand. I hate to do it but I think we'll need to start considering Cavern of Souls in our builds just to push past their counterspells. It'll make our mana base less consistent but landing our threats makes it worth it. I'm going to try 2x maindeck, probably taking out my single remaining Gavony Township and probably a Forest. Then possibly one more in the SB since after moving both Decay and Garruk to the MD, I have a few SB slots to work with.
For the UWR control matchup, I was boarding like this:
-4x Centaur Healer
-2x Angel of Serenity
+3x Underworld Connections
+2x Vraska the Unseen
+1x Purify the Grave
Not sure if that was the correct call but I had Decays and O-Rings for their Detention Spheres and Ultimate Price for 3/4 of their creatures already in the MD. I don't think Angel is that good against them but if I go to 2x Caverns in the MD and one in the SB, I'll probably take out Wurms instead so that I can name "Angel" for Cavern and have more targets. Not sure yet but testing will give me a better idea of what works.
hmm, that's an interesting list. His most recent version takes out Angel of Serenity completely and favors Armada Wurm at the top of the creature curve. Not sure how I feel about that. Every time I've played the Angel, it's been a blow-out. In fact, I board out the Wurms a lot of the time.
I do like the Garruk's in the main though, I've been looking for room to do that for a while now.
Something to consider, his list looks like it'd be a lot faster than mine.
Ugh. Just wrapped up another daily. Started 2-0 and dropped my last two. That is the worst, spending all that time to finish with nothing. Oh well...
Ok so the new Boggie man is UWR Midrange. Geist of Saint Traft is just very hard to deal with backed up by Unsummon and Counters.
Here's how the Tourney went:
UWR Midrange 2-0 Bant Control 2-0 Bant Control 1-2 UWR Midrange 0-2
I was able to beat my first opponent playing UWR Midrange. he never got Geist online and I just bullied him.
My 4th match was nearly impossible with Geist running rampant both games. I need an answer to Geist. I'm thinking Wolfir Avenger x2, not sure.
Lingering Souls is good for the early game to stall because it's two bodies over one card. Unsummon sucks against it. The only problem is Thundermaw Hellkite at the 5 spot, most lists run 2.
Selsnya Charm is also an option, the only problem is counters + Bounce.
I have two spots to dedicate for this new tempo deck, just have to figure out what the answer is. All help is appreciated.
As long as UWR midrange doesn't have Moorland Haunt online, they won't have tons of creature in play, so maybe Barter In Blood? It's a four drop so it fits the third turn post-Farseek plan which by then, Geist will be in play. Other than that, not sure. Thirst for Hunger seems risky.
@Poppa - Glad you got to see the GW decks in action! hah. Now you see why I'm dead set on having instant speed removal of some sort in the main, but yeah. Those decks are stupid fast.
I really like that second list you cooked up, it's good that your bomb count is decently high. 2 Wurm, 3 Serenity, 2 Sigarda, and the 4 Thrags of course. I'm very iffy about the 24 lands though. If you can honestly say you're not getting land screwed that bad, I'm all for it, because extra topdecked lands are just as damaging as missing them. That being said, we really can't afford to miss them early. If nothing else, this leaves me to heavily favor Gatecreeper Vine in a 24 land build.
How did you sideboard vs the GW aggro dudes if you can recall, specifically? Also, stay safe and don't get wiped out by Sandy!
Yes, I'm skeptical about having one less land as well. I'm running Gatecreeper though which as you said makes me feel like I could at least give it a try. If it doesn't work out, I'll probably take out a Sigarda or a Ranger's Path for the 25th land.
Here's how I boarded for the GW Aggro lists:
-2x Garruk Relentless
-2x Armada Wurm
-1x Sever the Bloodline
-1x Ranger's Path
+2x Ultimate Price
+2x Curse of Death's Hold
+1x Golgari Charm
+1x Garruk, Primal Hunter/Abrupt Decay
Curse and Golgari Charm always came in together. Reason being is I had the Charm in there as a faster, mini Curse to buy me time until I could get out the actual Curse. It also was there to instant-speed destroy their Rancor or O-Ring.
Primal Hunter and Abrupt Decay were cards I wasn't sure of so I switched them in and out a lot. Never drew either but I was constantly hoping I would. I can see myself taking out two Armada Wurm for maindeck Primal Hunters...the card draw is just so good in this deck.
Hopefully I can test this list soon. I'll let everyone know the results.
Tested my list pretty extensively versus GW Aggro over the weekend. In fact when I say tested extensively, I mean every single round I got paired up against the same GW Aggro list. I was not happy about that. Most games usually went Forest > Mana Dork...Sunpetal Grove > Smiter...Temple Garden > Silverblade Paladin > Rancor...dead. It's a pretty terrible feeling answering an opponent's Smiter with a Farseek, haha.
So every match, I boarded in 2x Ultimate Price, 2x Curse of Death's Hold, 1x Golgari Charm and 2x Primal Hunter. Out of the three matches I played against this deck, I only won one and it was because I saw all my Ultimate Price's every game. I almost eeked out a second win after landing a Curse but then got mana flooded for the next 8 turns (I had an 8/10 Gatecreeper Vine and still lost).
Even though this deck was super fast, I feel as long as we can hit our land drops every turn and find at least one removal spell, we have a lot better chance at winning. Just about any creature we can draw is better than any of theirs. Because of this, I'm leaning towards Cassial's newest list that see's Sever moved to the board for Ultimate Price in the MD. Rancor is a thing and one of the only ways we have to get rid of it is instant-speed removal or O-Ring. Surviving that initial onslaught means we get a real shot to take over the mid-late game.
I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Abrupt Decay in the MD as a catch-all for aggro and control's Sphere/O-Ring plan. It just hits almost everything we want in the early game. Just about every deck has something useful we can take out. This would also free up more SB room. I do like Ultimate Price too but not being able to hit a Smiter sucks. But I still think it has MD potential. Not thinking about SB yet, here's a list I'm thinking of changing to:
I feel adding more removal makes a MD Garruk Relentless redundant. So both of him come out for 2x Abrupt Decay. Just about any creature I'd hit with Garruk, besides a Knight of Glory, can be taken out with Decay. Then Sever the Bloodline goes over to the board for 1x Ultimate Price and the other Ultimate Price comes in for one of my two Gavony Townships, taking me down to 24 lands. Not once did I get mana screwed but a couple times I flooded out hard. Maybe this is still wrong being that we want to hit our land drops every time but I feel the need to test it out.
Anyway, I'm open to critique/suggestions. Don't know how bad this hurricane will put me out without power so I may not be on for a few days
I stop visiting the Rumor Mill for two weeks and I come back to find out they're re-printing Goyf?!?!?! And somehow this was never even mentioned at my LGS for the past two weeks...I'm beyond astonished how I haven't heard of this yet. Wow, just wow.
This product looks incredible and I can't wait to get my hands on some!
I wouldn't discard Azorius Arrester so easily as an option.
The fact that it deals two damage, does not make it worse in comparison to Precinct Captain or Elite Inquisitor, which also deal two damage. Against other Aggro decks it is obvious that he will give you an advantage. Together with Lyev Skynight and Restoration Angel for repeated detain it will net you more damage coming through, and less damage to yourself.
Also, as a late game card he will still have an immediate effect on the board, unlike Precinct Captain or Elite Inqusitor.
I agree with this. He's not really a two drop in this deck, more like a 4 drop to push through that extra damage from a Geist or big a Champion. Being able to negate a Thragtusk or Centaur Healer will be key. I can see some number of Arresters in place of Precinct Captain and/or Resto Angel.
However if there's room for only one detainer, I think that Skyknight is much better as it has evasion, is more powerful and can detain Planeswalkers and other problem non-creature permanents.
Vorthos would approve, this is the closest thing to a real Azorius themed deck that may actually work as well.
I think you should try to expand on the tempo gameplay as it can affect both Aggro and Mid-range strategies very well. You seem to have built this deck in a response to control, but the meta is developing more towards an aggro-midrange kind of thing at the moment because control decks historically take longer to shape up. You are very afraid of zombies/thragtusk matchups but your sideboard isnt really built to deal with it.
Some questions on said sideboard: Why do you run Nearheath Pilgrim? Gaining a few life doesn't matter if its gonna cost you a card, as at the end of the day its just a 2/1 that dies to anything. I would suggest Knight of Glory in this spot as it shuts down most of their deck. Hell, even Azorius Arrester is a better card at that spot for its ability to detain in combination with Restoration angel. The Detain mechanic + Geist of Saint Traft is a very powerful interaction. T3 Geist, T4 Skynight, T5 Restoration Angel can be a very deadly combination.
You may want to get rid of Dissipate in favor of Syncopate. Not many decks will want this but just like the Familiar, it allows you to punish decks that like to curve out like most Mid-range strategies a whole turn earlier. Zombies run Cavern of Souls anyway, so that makes counters not very efficient.
As you said your sideboard isnt final, but most of these choices that you have made now do not make a lot of sense.
I like these lists a lot first off. Just a few points/questions...
-Even though the thread is named "aggro-control" this build here is mostly an aggro deck playing cheap, efficient creatures which is why Jace seems very out of place here. Not only is he not really helping the aggro plan, but there are 4 of him here which have two negative consequences - one being that you are forced to play 24 lands in a deck with a very low curve and two being that you will invariably end up with Jace in your opener often which just dilutes your aggro potency. In this deck, if you take out Jace, you're looking at a top end curve of only 3-4 Resto Angels (I think 3 is the right number here if any at all) 4 CMC which means you can add some more threats and smooth out your curve by removing lands. That means something like War Falcon or Knight of Glory can come in and increase your threat diversity.
-If there was ever a deck that wanted Civic Saber in it, this would be it. Turn two 4/1 Dryads and 3/1 Familiars seem really good. And a 4/2 Geist after a Skynight detain seems really good also.
-Serra Avenger seems kind of meh in this build. Think of it like this, there are 6 two-drops in this deck and 3 of them aren't able to be cast on turn 2. Aggro decks need more consistent threats to come down. I really like Thalia as a turn 2 play, especially backing up a Familiar...plus she'll be a lightning rod for removal. Why not 4 of her? I know she's legendary but she's just a beast in this deck. Play Familiar turn 1, Thalia turn two which now means that your opponent will most likely have to wait two turns to remove her or at the very least be forced to waste their entire next turn removing her. Then you just have more of her.
-Resto Angel is a great card a lot of the times just because of her flashable body. However maybe there's a better creature that can interact better with the deck. Right now, the only interaction besides removing a creature from combat or flickering in response to removal is the Skynight. I'm not saying that she's not worth it, because those points alone might warrant her inclusion, I'm just wondering. Keeping her in here though as a 3-of instead of 4-of helps to insure she won't be in your opening hand, but more that you'll draw into her. Also if she stays, it's just one more reason to find a replacement for Serra Avenger.
-I love the Charms and Sphere in this deck. They both don't play well with Thalia which is the only downside but that's a necessary pitfall here. Perhaps the only reasonable replacement if you don't like the Thalia/Sphere interaction is to replace Sphere with Fiend Hunter. Most of the time, this deck will want to remove a creature anyway so your guys can push through. The only downside is that Terminus and Verdict are everywhere and anyone playing them will be foaming at the mouth to get theirs to resolve asap against you and Fiend Hunter gives them great board presence after their sweeper. The upside is it's more creatures for your Moorland Haunts. I'm inclined to say Sphere stays but I wanted to suggest Fiend Hunter regardless.
Did about 6 hours of play testing against a variety of decks yesterday. The deck really needs to board presence turn 2/3, or the red deck and zombie matchups are really bad for us. In fact, out of about 12 games, I was about 4:8 against these decks. To fight this, I replaced one visionary, and the rangers path's to 3 borderland rangers. While technically not ramp, they provide a body that trades with almost everything from the red decks, and profitably keeps you alive in the early turns to stabilize. Most importantly they make sure you make your 4th or 5th land drop.
The miracles matchup is super grindly and unfun. They can not reliably win with entreat (due to chaining serenity angels and sever the bloodline). The problem is they tap your only threat, and grind you out with Jace and Tamiyo, and if they get a few miracle board wipes down, the game just grinds to a halt. In this matchup pithing needle is your best bet, normally to stop Tamiyo, effectively stopping Jace. Preboard I find my build is about 40:60 game 1, and about 70:30 game 2/3 against control. Finally underworld connections is an absolute all star in this deck, with so much life gain, a phyrexian arena on a land is amazing in this matchup.
For the miracles matchup or anything with planeswalkers, have you tried Vraska in place of Pithing Needle? As Cassial has explained, it's a great answer post-SB to these kind of decks. They'll tap out to play Jace or Tamiyo. Next turn you play Vraska and blow up a planeswalker. Now they have to deal with Vraska before they can lay another walker. So they'll waste their next turn(s) looking for an answer which will most likely be an O-ring or Sphere. This is why you also board in Abrupt Decay to destroy their enchantment and now your Vraska is back on board with a full 5 loyalty ready to destroy stuff again.
Seems to be a much better threat than a Pithing Needle.
Four maindeck removal spells feels like a decent number against RDW and rakdos aggro, and the Sigarda has been doing some real work against a multitude of decks. I'm still not sure about the Rhox Faithmender in the board, and I haven't been overly impressed with him yet, especially since I feel like the aggro matchup isn't that bad anymore.
I cut a Woodland Cemetery because I never felt that constrained for black mana, and decided to add another Plains to the deck for landing Sigarda, Wurm and Angel (that's a lot of white mana!) with more consistency, and on time. I was never that impressed with Gavony either, hence going down to 1 copy as well.
I'm really liking the additional "you HAVE to answer me!" threats so far, presenting aggro with a huge roadblock, and forcing control to answer them 1 for 1, eventually running them out of answers.
Thoughts?
I really like this list. It's pretty much what I will be building, just with maybe a different combination of O-Rings/Sever/Garruk.
Just one question - every list I've seen except for you and another poster are running 25 lands. You are sporting 24. Have you always run 24 lands or did you cut one land? Have you experienced any mana issues at 24 lands?
First off Cassial, it was awesome running into you on Cockatrice...what are the odds, haha
Hot damn, that's a nice take on Junk! I've been wanting a reason to run Grisly Salvage and Deathrite Shaman for some time now but didn't think it fit with my plan. I've already switched my list up to run 4x Smiters and 2x Caverns maindeck and this is able to run both in addition to the other cards I just mentioned as well as Rancor. Seems good
I would like to tweak this list slightly though to maybe include Selesyna Charm as that has just been fantastic for me. And I'm not ready to give up my 3x Vault of the Archangels at this time - they're just too much of a blowout every time I land one. I took out Gavony Township long ago and never looked back...also 4x Cavern seems like it wants to be 3x at most. So maybe there's the room i need for my 3x Vaults.
Sam Black always comes up with inspiring decks and this is no exception. Giving this a whirl later for sure.
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Don't quote me on what i boarded in exactly, I may have gotten one or two cards mixed up
To be more clear, this deck I'm talking about is the more aggro UWR build, not the Todd Anderson control build.
But yes the Ultimate Prices were intentional because their creatures are Snappy, Geist, Resto and Thundermaw Hellkite and Ultimate Price hits 3 out of the 4 as well as Angel tokens. These builds don't play Jace or Tamiyo MD. Most times they'll tap out for Thundermaw Hellkite which I was able to kill immediately with the Price.
And I kept the Severs in the SB since they don't play Entreat.
Vraska came in in case they brought in Jace and/or Tamiyo, not sure if they would against me. I'm just starting to learn how this deck runs and what they'd bring in against us.
Thinking about it now, I may have taken out Decays also...they play 2 or 3 Detention Spheres and no Terminus. Can't remember exactly...I'll take better notes next time
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So I've doing a lot of testing on Cockatrice with this deck here:
4x Gatecreeper Vine
4x Centaur Healer
4x Thragtusk
2x Armada Wurm
3x Angel of Serenity
2x Sigarda, Host of Herons
3x Restoration Angel
Spells:
4x Farseek
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ultimate Price
Enchantments:
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Selesyna Keyrune
Planeswalkers:
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands:
4x Temple Garden
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Sunpetal Grove
2x Woodland Cemetery
3x Vault of the Archangel
1x Gavony Township
4x Forest
2x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Underworld Connections
2x Vraska the Unseen
2x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Golgari Charm
2x Purify the Grave
2x Ray of Revelation
3x Sever the Bloodline
Ever since adding the maindeck Abrupt Decay and Ultimate Price, my aggro matchups have greatly improved. I've taken down pretty much every aggro deck that I've faced including BR Zombies, GB Zombies, GW Populate, etc.
Since going down to 24 lands, I've gotten mana screwed once...which is basically irrelevant since I would get land-screwed at 25 lands. There are still games where I flood out hard anyway. I was skeptical about running 24 lands but so far, it's worked out.
I took out Ranger's Path altogether in favor of Garruk, Primal Hunter which has been a house for me. The draw and resilience against sweepers is invaluable. I could go to three possibly but keeping it at 2 for now.
So now my worst matchup by far is control, namely the UWR control builds that are sprouting up everywhere now. As others in this thread have noted, that is a horrible matchup even if we have an ideal opening hand. I hate to do it but I think we'll need to start considering Cavern of Souls in our builds just to push past their counterspells. It'll make our mana base less consistent but landing our threats makes it worth it. I'm going to try 2x maindeck, probably taking out my single remaining Gavony Township and probably a Forest. Then possibly one more in the SB since after moving both Decay and Garruk to the MD, I have a few SB slots to work with.
For the UWR control matchup, I was boarding like this:
-4x Centaur Healer
-2x Angel of Serenity
+3x Underworld Connections
+2x Vraska the Unseen
+1x Purify the Grave
Not sure if that was the correct call but I had Decays and O-Rings for their Detention Spheres and Ultimate Price for 3/4 of their creatures already in the MD. I don't think Angel is that good against them but if I go to 2x Caverns in the MD and one in the SB, I'll probably take out Wurms instead so that I can name "Angel" for Cavern and have more targets. Not sure yet but testing will give me a better idea of what works.
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hmm, that's an interesting list. His most recent version takes out Angel of Serenity completely and favors Armada Wurm at the top of the creature curve. Not sure how I feel about that. Every time I've played the Angel, it's been a blow-out. In fact, I board out the Wurms a lot of the time.
I do like the Garruk's in the main though, I've been looking for room to do that for a while now.
Something to consider, his list looks like it'd be a lot faster than mine.
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As long as UWR midrange doesn't have Moorland Haunt online, they won't have tons of creature in play, so maybe Barter In Blood? It's a four drop so it fits the third turn post-Farseek plan which by then, Geist will be in play. Other than that, not sure. Thirst for Hunger seems risky.
No...just, no. You should re-read both cards.
Yes, I'm skeptical about having one less land as well. I'm running Gatecreeper though which as you said makes me feel like I could at least give it a try. If it doesn't work out, I'll probably take out a Sigarda or a Ranger's Path for the 25th land.
Here's how I boarded for the GW Aggro lists:
-2x Garruk Relentless
-2x Armada Wurm
-1x Sever the Bloodline
-1x Ranger's Path
+2x Ultimate Price
+2x Curse of Death's Hold
+1x Golgari Charm
+1x Garruk, Primal Hunter/Abrupt Decay
Curse and Golgari Charm always came in together. Reason being is I had the Charm in there as a faster, mini Curse to buy me time until I could get out the actual Curse. It also was there to instant-speed destroy their Rancor or O-Ring.
Primal Hunter and Abrupt Decay were cards I wasn't sure of so I switched them in and out a lot. Never drew either but I was constantly hoping I would. I can see myself taking out two Armada Wurm for maindeck Primal Hunters...the card draw is just so good in this deck.
Hopefully I can test this list soon. I'll let everyone know the results.
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So every match, I boarded in 2x Ultimate Price, 2x Curse of Death's Hold, 1x Golgari Charm and 2x Primal Hunter. Out of the three matches I played against this deck, I only won one and it was because I saw all my Ultimate Price's every game. I almost eeked out a second win after landing a Curse but then got mana flooded for the next 8 turns (I had an 8/10 Gatecreeper Vine and still lost).
Even though this deck was super fast, I feel as long as we can hit our land drops every turn and find at least one removal spell, we have a lot better chance at winning. Just about any creature we can draw is better than any of theirs. Because of this, I'm leaning towards Cassial's newest list that see's Sever moved to the board for Ultimate Price in the MD. Rancor is a thing and one of the only ways we have to get rid of it is instant-speed removal or O-Ring. Surviving that initial onslaught means we get a real shot to take over the mid-late game.
Anyway, here's my list I played this weekend:
4x Gatecreeper Vine
4x Centaur Healer
4x Thragtusk
2x Armada Wurm
3x Angel of Serenity
2x Sigarda, Host of Herons
3x Restoration Angel
Spells:
4x Farseek
2x Ranger's Path
1x Sever the Bloodline
Enchantments:
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Selesyna Keyrune
Planeswalkers:
2x Garruk Relentless
Lands:
4x Temple Garden
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Sunpetal Grove
2x Woodland Cemetery
3x Vault of the Archangel
2x Gavony Township
4x Forest
2x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Underworld Connections
2x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Golgari Charm (comes in with Curse every time)
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
2x Ultimate Price
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Sever the Bloodline
0x Vraska the Unseen (Currently don't have any, would have 2x of her for sure)
I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Abrupt Decay in the MD as a catch-all for aggro and control's Sphere/O-Ring plan. It just hits almost everything we want in the early game. Just about every deck has something useful we can take out. This would also free up more SB room. I do like Ultimate Price too but not being able to hit a Smiter sucks. But I still think it has MD potential. Not thinking about SB yet, here's a list I'm thinking of changing to:
4x Gatecreeper Vine
4x Centaur Healer
4x Thragtusk
2x Armada Wurm
3x Angel of Serenity
2x Sigarda, Host of Herons
3x Restoration Angel
4x Farseek
2x Ranger's Path
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ultimate Price
Enchantments:
1x Oblivion Ring
Artifacts:
3x Selesyna Keyrune
Lands:
4x Temple Garden
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Sunpetal Grove
2x Woodland Cemetery
3x Vault of the Archangel
1x Gavony Township
4x Forest
2x Plains
1x Swamp
I feel adding more removal makes a MD Garruk Relentless redundant. So both of him come out for 2x Abrupt Decay. Just about any creature I'd hit with Garruk, besides a Knight of Glory, can be taken out with Decay. Then Sever the Bloodline goes over to the board for 1x Ultimate Price and the other Ultimate Price comes in for one of my two Gavony Townships, taking me down to 24 lands. Not once did I get mana screwed but a couple times I flooded out hard. Maybe this is still wrong being that we want to hit our land drops every time but I feel the need to test it out.
Anyway, I'm open to critique/suggestions. Don't know how bad this hurricane will put me out without power so I may not be on for a few days
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This product looks incredible and I can't wait to get my hands on some!
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I agree with this. He's not really a two drop in this deck, more like a 4 drop to push through that extra damage from a Geist or big a Champion. Being able to negate a Thragtusk or Centaur Healer will be key. I can see some number of Arresters in place of Precinct Captain and/or Resto Angel.
However if there's room for only one detainer, I think that Skyknight is much better as it has evasion, is more powerful and can detain Planeswalkers and other problem non-creature permanents.
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I like these lists a lot first off. Just a few points/questions...
-Even though the thread is named "aggro-control" this build here is mostly an aggro deck playing cheap, efficient creatures which is why Jace seems very out of place here. Not only is he not really helping the aggro plan, but there are 4 of him here which have two negative consequences - one being that you are forced to play 24 lands in a deck with a very low curve and two being that you will invariably end up with Jace in your opener often which just dilutes your aggro potency. In this deck, if you take out Jace, you're looking at a top end curve of only 3-4 Resto Angels (I think 3 is the right number here if any at all) 4 CMC which means you can add some more threats and smooth out your curve by removing lands. That means something like War Falcon or Knight of Glory can come in and increase your threat diversity.
-If there was ever a deck that wanted Civic Saber in it, this would be it. Turn two 4/1 Dryads and 3/1 Familiars seem really good. And a 4/2 Geist after a Skynight detain seems really good also.
-Serra Avenger seems kind of meh in this build. Think of it like this, there are 6 two-drops in this deck and 3 of them aren't able to be cast on turn 2. Aggro decks need more consistent threats to come down. I really like Thalia as a turn 2 play, especially backing up a Familiar...plus she'll be a lightning rod for removal. Why not 4 of her? I know she's legendary but she's just a beast in this deck. Play Familiar turn 1, Thalia turn two which now means that your opponent will most likely have to wait two turns to remove her or at the very least be forced to waste their entire next turn removing her. Then you just have more of her.
-Resto Angel is a great card a lot of the times just because of her flashable body. However maybe there's a better creature that can interact better with the deck. Right now, the only interaction besides removing a creature from combat or flickering in response to removal is the Skynight. I'm not saying that she's not worth it, because those points alone might warrant her inclusion, I'm just wondering. Keeping her in here though as a 3-of instead of 4-of helps to insure she won't be in your opening hand, but more that you'll draw into her. Also if she stays, it's just one more reason to find a replacement for Serra Avenger.
-I love the Charms and Sphere in this deck. They both don't play well with Thalia which is the only downside but that's a necessary pitfall here. Perhaps the only reasonable replacement if you don't like the Thalia/Sphere interaction is to replace Sphere with Fiend Hunter. Most of the time, this deck will want to remove a creature anyway so your guys can push through. The only downside is that Terminus and Verdict are everywhere and anyone playing them will be foaming at the mouth to get theirs to resolve asap against you and Fiend Hunter gives them great board presence after their sweeper. The upside is it's more creatures for your Moorland Haunts. I'm inclined to say Sphere stays but I wanted to suggest Fiend Hunter regardless.
-Is there a place for War Falcon and/or Champion of the Parish in here? Also maybe Silverblade Paladin?
Overall i think this looks like an awesome deck. I think I'll sleeve up a list and try it out. I'll post results if I get a chance.
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For the miracles matchup or anything with planeswalkers, have you tried Vraska in place of Pithing Needle? As Cassial has explained, it's a great answer post-SB to these kind of decks. They'll tap out to play Jace or Tamiyo. Next turn you play Vraska and blow up a planeswalker. Now they have to deal with Vraska before they can lay another walker. So they'll waste their next turn(s) looking for an answer which will most likely be an O-ring or Sphere. This is why you also board in Abrupt Decay to destroy their enchantment and now your Vraska is back on board with a full 5 loyalty ready to destroy stuff again.
Seems to be a much better threat than a Pithing Needle.
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I really like this list. It's pretty much what I will be building, just with maybe a different combination of O-Rings/Sever/Garruk.
Just one question - every list I've seen except for you and another poster are running 25 lands. You are sporting 24. Have you always run 24 lands or did you cut one land? Have you experienced any mana issues at 24 lands?
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