You make a great point my man and I appreciate the words of encouragement. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to get cocky, I know I won and I worked hard for it. I just want to always be willing to adapt and change as is needed. I'm not going to overhaul the deck, I'm literally just changing 1-2 things at a time, if they are going to be changed, this is the process of gradual refinement.
The BR zombies matchup for instance, it's not that I can't win it, it's that I feel I won some of them by a coin toss of luck in my favor. They really are that damn close, and if nothing else, I feel I need to allocate some more slots in my side to make it a safer game vs them. I honestly don't know that much needs to change, but I can't help but feel something could change to lock it more in my/our favor. I don't feel that we have to dilute that much to accomplish this.
Also in the spirit of honesty, both of my BR zombie opponents, faced in rounds 4 & 6 respectively if I recall correctly: The first one was a straight up BR zombies with burn - this is the scariest, and I will firmly state that I won simply because I won G1, lost G2 hard with him on the play, and was able to win G3 because I was on the play. The second player was BR zombies with Blood Artists and played a more controlling game post SB - it was close but I felt less threatened since his deck wasn't ALL zombies + burn. I faced both of them in the finals, and it was ultimately in my advantage - I was in first place going into the top 8, so I had the advantage of being on the play game one or not. Of course I took it, and the scenarios repeated themselves, I win game 1 handily, get run over game 2, and win gritting my teeth in game 3. Whoever's on the play really makes a world of difference. This is why I'm stressing we need to possibly allocate a third Curse of Death's Hold or *something* else against them, even if it's just 2 O-rings main over Disciples.
If I make no other changes to this deck, I strongly feel that 3x Terminus are going out the door. I've been saved by the lucky miracle once in a blue moon, sure, but I'd rather rely on a rock solid wall of life gain/creatures/interaction, and board wipes are somewhat counterproductive to my own game plan. The biggest strike against it is since this is more of a slower midrange ramp deck, I often find myself 1 mana short of hard casting it when it's actually needed. Terminus almost always gets boarded out in favor of Sever - it's cheaper, it doesn't wipe the field, but it gets rid of a problem, twice, which is exactly what is usually needed. Sever is simply our 5 out of 5 all star removal spell, and our reason for playing B in here. With that said, if Terminus becomes 3x MB Sever, that gives us 2-3 free sideboard slots to play around with. This is where my focus is on really, if a few mainboard tweaks are made, and what could be our new go-to sideboard pick, with BR zombies as our hardest matchup in mind.
3x Underworld Connections
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Curse of Death's Hold (+1)
2x Vraska the Unseen
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
2x Open Slots
I get ya...just wanted to make sure we were all on track here and it sounds like I might have misunderstood the scope of the changes you were making.
I've been playing one Sever MD and it's been amazing for me, I'd love to go to two which at that point, I'd feel like I could either remove the two Garruk Relentless for other slots or maybe replace them with Primal Hunter since I'm not currently running Disciple. I won't be able to test for a week though so this is all just fish-bowling here.
Also, Cassial, when you change up your deck, can you please add a link to the list in your sig for reference?
Up in the air possibilities for 2x Disciple of Bolas...preferably close to 4 CMC, and black if possible, but not necessary. Keep in mind his "role" I guess you could say previously was "gain some extra life" and refuel, he was effectively extra Centaur Healers in the deck before.
+2x Abrupt Decay main seems safe and fine.
+2x Mainboard Tribute to Hunger? Helps with our early lifegain, although it realistically won't net us more than 1-2 life in the early game.
+1x Restoration Angel (up to 4) and +1x Ranger's Path? (up to 3) This is the one I'm leaning more heavily towards, this'll satisfy my desire to Cloudshift ALL the things, and I'm always happy to see Ranger's Path vs control. Although I'd hate to see an opening hand with two vs anything.
+2x Selesnya Charm - hadn't considered it before, but the surprise +2/2 to save one of my creatures, or surprise 2/2 blocker, and strong exile all seem useful to have along. Best case scenario I can save one of my early creatures in combat + trade profitably, worst case scenario I can make an emergency blocker if needed. Both options seem safe.
+2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - No I haven't gone crazy, but Sorin is amazing vs Zombies and other aggro. Especially if he's taking the place of Disciple of Bolas. This seems like the absolute strongest choice to hold down the fort if we fail to ramp explosively in G1. And no, Sorin doesn't need to be played in a dedicated tokens deck, he is strong enough on his own. If Jace, Architect of Thought didn't do what his -1 does...I'd be 3 main on Sorin even vs control..ugh
Anyway let's hear your thoughts!
Cassial, I'm just curious here...YOU WON STATES with this deck
Do you think that this deck really needs an overhaul? I feel that some of the card suggestions are only diluting this deck's gameplan (Caravan Vigil, Decay in the MD, Tribute to Hunger, etc). Don't get me wrong, I agree that a great deck needs to constantly adopt to a changing local meta and global meta but this is still a relatively new Standard season and we're just only now beginning to learn it. If you would have gotten rolled last weekend, then maybe we'd have a need to make lots of changes. But this deck is undoubtedly a force to reckon with and now you have the luxury of looking down from the top of the mountain to see how others will adapt to you (within reason obviously).
You pointed out one matchup that you felt was the main reason to change some things which was BR Zombies. Fair enough, if you feel that's the worst matchup, you'll know better than anyone else. But I'm seeing some suggestions that won't help that matchup at all.
Just wanted to pop in and ask the question. I could be 100% wrong, I just see some suggestions and it leaves me a little bewildered based on what we know the deck's strengths and weaknesses are.
@Redirus91 Don't play moderator and tell me I need to read the posts.
PS. Your Sig is garbage.
Whoa guy, no need to resort to that. According to the Competitive forum rules, you should read the previous pages to acquaint yourself with the conversation so you don't ask questions or suggest things that have previously been explained...which you did. This thread so far is on track to be the most focused and well-behaved thread I've seen on MTGS yet, haha...let's not kill it.
Yeah, you guys are spot on, to hell with Cloudshift. It sounded great when I was at work mulling over aggro tricks, and then I just did some goldfishing in paper magic and soon realized I need more bombs, Angels/Wurms. And like Aukland said, worst case scenario, dead cloudshift in hand is just dead. Ah well.
We can split hairs over the exact numbers but I'd almost always rather see Angel of Serenity in hand over a Wurm, 3/2 split seems okay if Disciple is getting the boot. Or as Maligance suggested, 2x Primal Hunter can make it main.
Going to try -2x Disciple for +1 Restoration Angel and +1 Primal Hunter for now.
I'm trying the 4x Elvish Visionaries over the 4x Gatecreepers and honestly not a fan so far.
I read your proposed idea at work but couldn't respond so I was going to wait till this evening to tell you my experiences with Cloudshift but it seems like you've already come to your senses
Back a few weeks ago I started testing a deck very similar to what we have here but I had 3x Cloudshifts in it thinking it was going to be the next big thing. A couple days of testing proved me horribly wrong as I ultimately cut them for more threats/better removal.
But if you still include some number of them, keep us posted. I just can't really get behind the idea of them.
anyone ever messed with heartless summoning as a '2Drop' ramp spell? Not only allows one to play creatures with high CMC earlier but also multiple low CMC creatures, how would you like to cast 2 restoration angels for the same cost?
Although you should be recognized for the awesome deck you built, I selfishly hope you don't post it so this deck doesn't catch on and then everybody and their brother plays it
Oh hell yeah!!! NICE JOB! Can't wait to see a report when you have time.
EDIT: I've been playtesting this more and I'm going to drop the dorks. I just feel like I'm constantly ramping into 1/1 dorks and it's just not worth it to ramp into a three drop turn two when I can ramp into much better spells one turn later. Also I cannot beat Bant Ramp for the life of me, I feel like that deck is just a better version of junk ramp. I know that's blasphemy though and I will not abandon Junk, I just need to figure out the matchup. But I do expect that deck to be played heavily in the coming standard season and we should be prepared for it as it's a bad matchup against us.
I have come around to your general way of thinking :), with the one exception of the Gatecreeper Vine. I just can't make myself play that card. When I was testing it out, I drew it quite often in the late game and wanted to scratch my eyes out :(. Even when I could play it T2, it didn't do enough. An alternative: Strangleroot Geist? You have 19 sources of G mana that should allow you to play it on T2, and it is much more of a "speed bump" than the Vine. It also has quite a bit more utility as an early beater against Control to force them to take some action, setting up your stronger mid- and late-game plays.
Good luck tomorrow!
I was with you until you said Strangleroot Geist. What does that do for this deck's game plan? Turn two, we better be ramping, pulling lands out of our deck or at the very least, be gaining some life. I can see the argument for using it as a chump blocker for two turns but in this deck, I'd rather not mess around with him when I can ramp quicker up to an Angel or Wurm.
Man, I'm telling you guys, all of these small points are the exact reasons I prefer hard land ramp over mana dorks. I'll go one by one. Sorry in advance if this comes across caustic or too I-told-you-so'ish, I don't think there's a single correct answer on whether to do dorks or hard ramp. I do think that both have significant advantages and differences, and you absolutely must figure out what these exact strengths and weaknesses are before you commit to one or the other, and subsequently play on them.
Biased feedback inc, one by one.
@The sheer amount of mana you had, and not much to do with it: It's good that you're running at least 4x Gavony/Vaults. I'm playing it safe and doing 2/2 of each. These alone are solid arguments in favor of the dorks and getting some value out of them later. This is also a huge reason I am in favor of Selesnya Keyrune - a tri purpose card; think of it almost like an artifact form Kessig Wolf Run, that also helps you ramp, and acts as mana dump in a pinch. The upside over KWR, it's it's own threat, while not being near as critical, it's a *resilient* threat. I can say with absolute certainty I won several games off the back of Selesnya Keyrune + Gavony Townships pumping them, with nothing else to do in long games. The counter is applied to the permanent and stays there, your Watchwolf will permanently be a 4/4+ when he activates again.
The other subtle point that ties into this you will or you won't see with your own playtesting, thinning the deck out versus having dorks helps to greatly alleviate the drawing more dorks/mana flood problem. I firmly believe that if you are running 8 dorks, you're saying: "I'm okay with the inconsistency that might pop up, but I absolutely want 3 mana on T2 no matter what, even if it causes problems." To that end I ultimately think it's not worth it. Next point-
The life gain: As you noticed, we are capable of gaining a lot of life. Or just enough to make sure we don't roll over dead vs hyper aggro. Worst case scenario you sometimes don't draw what you need. But I think your odds of topdecking a needed Thragtusk are better with deck thinning/some card draw. You can't count on the chump block for 3 turns in a row plan to just get you there, assuming your scenario of you got flooded by too many dorks, and the aggro player just durdled. I'd go so far as to say you don't need stuff like Knight of Glory just to have a good early 2 drop blocker. It's very possible the Zombies player sides in Golgari Charm, and chooses to -1/1 and kill your Knight + a dork, this is almost a guaranteed loss for you from that point on. Furthermore I think it's such a narrow sideboard inclusion, it's only relevance I've seen is just for the zombies matchup, and we don't even really *need* it. It's not *that* much of a silver bullet against them, plus you have to ask what's coming out for it. I feel the same about Rest in Peace vs them, it's not going to actually block for you, it really feels win-more to me to say I'll proactively put this down just so I can bury your zombies for good, when I get around to blocking them. Remember, we are RAMP, you need just enough early defense, mixed with lifegain, and perhaps the lucky terminus miracle (that's the Oops, I win moment), and then you simply win by going big.
@ Wishing the deck had more draw: Mainboard 2x Disciple of Bolas, or even a 1 of Garruk, Primal Hunter. The 2x Disciple + 3x Restoration Angel package honestly acts like Centaur Healers 5-8! The fact that the disciple also GAINS YOU LIFE off the draw is significant in the early game 1 vs aggro. If it just drew you cards, I would not be giving this card a second glance, but it's the fact that it does both that makes all the difference.
@Fiend Hunter - Good thinking, the blink is a possibility, but I don't think he's at all needed. I'd rather have Sever the Bloodline as it's probably the strongest single target exile a creature effect in standard currently, since it hits redundants + has flashback is a huge plus for a late game ramp deck. It's very easy sideboarding, in games where you don't need your 3x Terminus, 3x Sever can easily go in as a never have to worry about a problem creature insurance. If you determine you don't need sweepers vs them (i.e control, they play few creatures), I'd argue sever is still worth it versus the likes of Entreat the Angels, it can hit Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius, just, anything. You may need it just to get a stray Snapcaster Mage out of the way so it can't block so you can hit a walker, and that's fine. That's exactly what spot removal on demand is for, especially when you can do it twice in one card. Sever is also going to be what decides the MIRROR match for us, surprisingly. What better way to deal with opposing Angels of Serenity than by EXILING the Angel itself, and or their tough creatures that threaten to chain back? Also, twice on one card again.
Sorry for the wall dudes, hope this helps. More on gauntlet testing later, yay for at work forum lurking.
Thanks for the suggestions, many of which I agree with and will take into serious consideration I've been lurking during work as well, haha...and I've been thinking about the dork build i currently have. I would love to remove them completely in favor of more consistent ramp and bombs. I just need to play a little more with the deck to figure out how it goes along with my play-style. The one major arguement for me that makes it tempting to ditch the dorks is the possibility of playing the Keyrune. So much mass removal and sorcery speed removal floating around that these are a very attractive addition.
I keep saying this like a broken record, but, folks, look to STRONGER answer cards on the sideboard for the problem matchup. Let me give an example of zombies, and I'm confident this is the right call for my deck at least. I have happily come to the conclusion that I should never lose to GB zombies barring nightmare mulling to 5 and no land type variance. They simply do *not* have enough reach in their deck, and my lifegain/blockers are enough to ensure I have a favorable matchup consistently. It's the one's running Red you should worry about.
Jund/BR depending on how much reach they're packing can actually seal the deal, mostly thanks to Falkenrath Aristocrat. In a format filled with Thragtusk, the smart aggro players are already realizing that the best way to deal with it is to immediately follow it up with haste+damage in the air past it. Just go over the Thragtusk. Some RakDW builds are opting for the full 4x Aristocrats as well as 3x Thundermaw Hellkite (Another big strike against Lingering Souls). I am far more concerned about the RakDW/RDW matchup outright killing me too fast. It's also Hellrider vs Thragtusk - this is another reason they're making the shift to Aristocrat, Hellrider getting blocked by a Thragtusk is embarassing for them.
What's the answer then? I'm going to happily sideboard out 2x Armada Wurm in favor of 2x Curse of Death's Hold. The Armada Wurm being a 6 drop (You could make the same argument for Angel, hold on, hear me out), presumes you're in a comfortable position to drop him and possibly block things. He does not have flying, and is not as much of an immediate OH THANK GOD I'M SAVED creature for our strategy - compared to the likes of Thragtusk/Angel of Serenity (Restoration Angel even). Angel of Serenity stays in, despite being expensive, on the offchance we can cast her, she will wrap the game up immediately for us + block followup Aristocrats.
Curse of Death's Hold is 5, and easier for us to rapidly ramp into than the Wurm. It immediately cuts hyper aggro's damage drastically in half and best case scenario kills some of their stuff dead. Did I mention it kills Falkenrath Aristocrat dead on the spot? My curse coming down when I'm on the play on T4 is pretty much an auto win for me, if nothing else it's like extra board wipes in the deck/extra life gain in the deck due to the drastically reduced damage you take from multiple sources. It's really one of those cards that looks unimpressive at first glance, and makes you stunned when you see it in real games doing a lot of work for you.
This is what I mean by let's find STRONGER sideboard tech answers, that deal with a wider variety of things, as well as hosing something.
You know what? This is something I can get behind! When you think about it, the only match that Knight of Glory matters is against BG zombies and that matchup should already be favorable to us. BR zombies will just laugh it away and burn it. Both you and Aukland seem to be on the same page there and I'm beginning to come around myself.
I won't be able to test this deck probably until the weekend, please keep us updated on your testing and States!
Here's the list I tested out last night in between draft rounds. I tested against a similar Bant ramp list so I really wasn't able to get a good idea of how the deck performed. But nonetheless here's my list and some notes below...
So like I said, I wasn't able to test against as many decks as I wanted (I only tested against one actually) so I don't exactly have the best feel for the deck yet but I was able to play enough games to gain a basic understanding of what I can possibly see changing moving ahead.
-One thing that struck me right off the bat was the sheer amount of mana I had on the board at any given time but not having all of the bombs that I would have wanted. Numerous times I was holding and/or drawing into my mana dorks or more land. With 25 lands, 8 one-drop dorks, 2 Borderland Rangers and 6 ramp spells, I'm wondering if I have too much mana? I know that seems like a stupid question in a mana ramp deck but every game I literally had way more mana than I knew what to do with. I'm thinking about lowering the land count to 24 or 23 and adding 1-2 Keyrunes.
-Another thing...this deck gains lots of life! I haven't tested against Zombies yet but I can envision not having the need to board that much for them. Maybe just the silver bullets such as Rest in Peace and Knight of Glory will be enough. There wasn't one game where I didn't have at least 35 life at some point. Yes, the deck I was playing against dirdled a little more than Zombies or any other aggro deck but turn 2 Healers and turn 3/4 Thragtusks were extremely common...combined with Vault of the Archangel (which is reason enough to run Black in this deck), even against Zombies my game plan wouldn't have been any different.
-I'm so torn on Borderland Ranger. I think with my mana dorks, he may be unnecessary but there were a few times he helped smooth out my land drops and also blinked him a few times with Resto Angel with no one else on the board to blink. Which brings me to my next point...
-I wish this deck had more draw. I might replace my two Borderland Rangers with Disciple of Bolas. I can see the card draw really being useful.
-I feel like Fiend Hunter could have a home in this deck as well. It could get the Angel chain in full swing and has awesome synergy with Resto Angel. This guy is also in contention for the 2-of Borderland Ranger slot.
Well that's all I can think of for now. Interested in any thoughts and/or critique!
Now, I know what some of you may be thinking. You see that Mountain and your head cocks to the side. Obviously it's in there for the sideboard Rakdos's Return, but why run the card at all? I think it's a great way to lock a game up against a similar midrange deck and can also do a number on enemy control decks. You know, kill a Jace and empty their hand? Seems fine to me and with eight main deck ways to fetch up the Mountain, I don't think it's too greedy. There are hardly ever situations where you'll be screwed by having a mountain and not something else. Maybe if you need WWW for the Angel, but other than that the mana is damn near perfect.
Any other inquiries, feel free to ask.
Hmmm, interesting idea about splashing red for Rakdos's Return. So that's primarily for the mirror? Have you been having success with that? And with the way this deck is already greedy with it's mana base, why not just stick a Mountain in the SB to bring in with it? Then you could maybe bring in Ancient Grudge for artifact removal as well seeing as you don't have Crushing Vines in your SB.
Keyrune's aren't a bad option. They provide extra body's to get there and have evasion from Sweeper's. If I were not running Centaur Healer I might opt for them (It would be a real tough spot vs. Lingering Souls, however). Garruk Relentless is a big reason I'm not running with the Disciple of Bolas gang. We have 0 MB removal, at worst, he fit's this role, at best he tutor's an Angel of Serenity or give's my big dumb creature's Trample to swing through a million and one Lingering Souls/Token's/Swarm Plan.dec.
I agree having Garruk is worth more than the Keyrunes but I'd love to find a way to fit both. I think for now, I'll be going with the dorks though.
Also can you explain the Griselbrand in your SB? Sorry if you already went over it somewhere else, I'm just curious.
I've never regretted 8 1 drop Mana Dude's. They give consistency to your T4-T5 bomb, and with the help of Vault/Gavony they aren't the worst thing you can draw late game. I have considered dropping them to 7 or even 6, but I am not willing to give up the consistency and general idea of the deck. It work's out better for the list's that run Disciple of Bolas, allowing a Gavony of the Township pump then drawing 2+ is really good in term's of value. And yes, worst case scenario, it eat's a card in your opponent's hand.
If a list doesn't run 8 dork's, it shouldn't be running 3-4 Angel's. I think it would fall into the Midrange caegory and adjust to play accordingly (4 Restoration Angel, 4 Thragtusk being the top end of the curve, maybe 1-2 Armada Wurm). I dont mention Angel of Serenity in a Midrange deck because that's getting very greedy and without 3-4, looping Angel's happens rarely, if ever.
Good points. I see the value in the mana dorks but I also like the OP's list running the keyrunes. Only thing is thinking about it more, those 3-drop keyrunes kind of conflict with much better turn 3 plays like the Healer, Garruk, Resto Angel, etc.
I think i may try a 3/4 mix of Pilgrim and Elf, and also throw in some Gavony Townships.
I hope to post a list soon and get some testing in.
I'm really interested in discussing the differences between the lists that run 8x one-drop mana dorks vs the decks that don't. Part of me thinks "why run turn one lightning rod removal creatures when you could fill that spot for more fatties and ramp that puts lands into play?" But then the other part of me thinks "well if they eat it, then that's one less removal spell and if they don't eat removal then that's a faster clock."
To me that's the major difference in the direction this deck could go. All the other cards are mostly interchangeable.
Does anyone have much experience in this? Has anyone added or removed either the Pilgrim or the Elf for these reasons? And does not having a one drop accelerant put you back significantly?
I like your list a lot, I've been looking to play a junk ramp list in new standard and this fits the bill nicely. There are a few changes I might suggest:
I think there's one too many Angel of Serenity. 3 seems to be the right number here just because it's at the top of your curve and you want to cut down on having anymore than 1 in your opening grip.
Same thing with Ranger's Path, Terminus and Selesyna Keyrune. Take Terminus...it's very good in the turns before you lay a huge fatty. After that, you don't want to be tanking your big guys. However, by the time you can hardcast it, you'll want to be playing a Thragtusk, Armada Wurm, etc. I'd opt for 2x Terminus and then two other control cards maybe Abrupt Decay, Garruk Relentless or Oblivion Ring.
Ranger's Path is the top end of your ramp, if you've played a keyrune or Farseek prior to that, you're pretty set on your way to getting a decent turn 4-6 fatty. Also to eliminate the chances of a late game topdeck Ranger's Path, I'd take it down to 2x. This gives you a slot for Borderland Ranger which I think is a very important piece to this deck. It doesn't ramp, but it does other things such as consistently getting your land drops, being a body to block, being a body for Disciple of Bolas and being another blink-able target for Resto Angel - all of which are very good qualities.
Selesnya Keyrune is good ramp in this deck...and maybe I'm wrong here but I think you could get away taking it down to 3x....maybe siding in the 4th against control.
So here's what I would suggest (keeping in mind I haven't tested this as much as I'd like to have):
I have to say I was on the fence about Lingerings Souls before reading your post but I think you've convinced me to leave it out of the 75. Good points!
I just do NOT get the love for Borderland Ranger or the gate 0/2 for 1G. Dawntreader as a 1-2 of and x4 farseek are exactly what my G/W ramp needs and is currently stomping my gauntlet. Who needs a chump-blocker (though dawntreader elk can fill that role) when you get to drop Thragtusk, Armada Wurm or Angel of Serenity a whole turn earlier?!
Besides if you are that desperate for a blocker on turn 2 with an mana dork in play... drop a centaur healer.
I think the lists that were running Borderland Ranger used him to gain more consistency in land drops. In this deck you need to be playing at least one land per turn. And having anywhere from 2-4 Rangers just made that happen more consistently. But yeah, if you're just looking at chump blockers, then there's other options that are better.
The fact that he's human is good with Angel of Glory's Rise.
I was thinking of the populate mechanic with Trostani or Rootbound Defenses (or Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage, which was already mentioned in this thread) to address that issue rather than Growing Ranks. Both can be used on your opponent's turn, leaving you with a token to attack with on your turn. I would obviously also play Sundering Growth in the SB, which provides the populate mechanic. Strangleroot Geist will obviously stay on the field after blocking and dying if you seance it on your opponent's turn. And Thragtusk always provides a benefit, regardless of the turn.
As for GoST, it is just frosting on the cake. It can't get much of a benefit from Seance, but it is an incredible card in the current format. GoST's biggest benefit from Seance is likely that you can trigger it to get rid of your opponent's GoST! I think this will be fairly valuable in the new meta.
OK, that's fair, I understand what you are saying, I just don't see the value in running GoST among other cards you mentioned that don't seem to do anything when being Seanced other than a body to block. I feel there are other cards worthy of that purpose that also add effect when they're resurrected.
And someone correct me if I'm wrong but if you Seance a Strangleroot Geist and it dies, it won't come back via undying. Tokens hit the graveyard before being exiled.
I understand the logic, but I see the fact that Seance triggers every turn as a benefit that shouldn't be ignored. It's another reason why I'd play a spirit based deck with Drogskul Captain (and GoST) so you could give hexproof to all your spirit tokens. That way you can pump tokens out on your opponent's turn so they can attack on your next turn. Add in Rootborn Defenses, and you have further protection for all of your creatures.
I think you might be interpreting Seance wrong. It can trigger on any player's upkeep but the tokens go away at the beginning of THE next end step, not YOUR next end step. Therefore if you create a token on an opponent's upkeep, that token will exile at the beginning of their end step and you won't have it next turn to attack with.
I get ya...just wanted to make sure we were all on track here and it sounds like I might have misunderstood the scope of the changes you were making.
I've been playing one Sever MD and it's been amazing for me, I'd love to go to two which at that point, I'd feel like I could either remove the two Garruk Relentless for other slots or maybe replace them with Primal Hunter since I'm not currently running Disciple. I won't be able to test for a week though so this is all just fish-bowling here.
Also, Cassial, when you change up your deck, can you please add a link to the list in your sig for reference?
_
Cassial, I'm just curious here...YOU WON STATES with this deck
Do you think that this deck really needs an overhaul? I feel that some of the card suggestions are only diluting this deck's gameplan (Caravan Vigil, Decay in the MD, Tribute to Hunger, etc). Don't get me wrong, I agree that a great deck needs to constantly adopt to a changing local meta and global meta but this is still a relatively new Standard season and we're just only now beginning to learn it. If you would have gotten rolled last weekend, then maybe we'd have a need to make lots of changes. But this deck is undoubtedly a force to reckon with and now you have the luxury of looking down from the top of the mountain to see how others will adapt to you (within reason obviously).
You pointed out one matchup that you felt was the main reason to change some things which was BR Zombies. Fair enough, if you feel that's the worst matchup, you'll know better than anyone else. But I'm seeing some suggestions that won't help that matchup at all.
Just wanted to pop in and ask the question. I could be 100% wrong, I just see some suggestions and it leaves me a little bewildered based on what we know the deck's strengths and weaknesses are.
_
Whoa guy, no need to resort to that. According to the Competitive forum rules, you should read the previous pages to acquaint yourself with the conversation so you don't ask questions or suggest things that have previously been explained...which you did. This thread so far is on track to be the most focused and well-behaved thread I've seen on MTGS yet, haha...let's not kill it.
I read your proposed idea at work but couldn't respond so I was going to wait till this evening to tell you my experiences with Cloudshift but it seems like you've already come to your senses
Back a few weeks ago I started testing a deck very similar to what we have here but I had 3x Cloudshifts in it thinking it was going to be the next big thing. A couple days of testing proved me horribly wrong as I ultimately cut them for more threats/better removal.
But if you still include some number of them, keep us posted. I just can't really get behind the idea of them.
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Although you should be recognized for the awesome deck you built, I selfishly hope you don't post it so this deck doesn't catch on and then everybody and their brother plays it
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Oh hell yeah!!! NICE JOB! Can't wait to see a report when you have time.
EDIT: I've been playtesting this more and I'm going to drop the dorks. I just feel like I'm constantly ramping into 1/1 dorks and it's just not worth it to ramp into a three drop turn two when I can ramp into much better spells one turn later. Also I cannot beat Bant Ramp for the life of me, I feel like that deck is just a better version of junk ramp. I know that's blasphemy though and I will not abandon Junk, I just need to figure out the matchup. But I do expect that deck to be played heavily in the coming standard season and we should be prepared for it as it's a bad matchup against us.
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I was with you until you said Strangleroot Geist. What does that do for this deck's game plan? Turn two, we better be ramping, pulling lands out of our deck or at the very least, be gaining some life. I can see the argument for using it as a chump blocker for two turns but in this deck, I'd rather not mess around with him when I can ramp quicker up to an Angel or Wurm.
Just my $.02 on it.
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Thanks for the suggestions, many of which I agree with and will take into serious consideration
You know what? This is something I can get behind! When you think about it, the only match that Knight of Glory matters is against BG zombies and that matchup should already be favorable to us. BR zombies will just laugh it away and burn it. Both you and Aukland seem to be on the same page there and I'm beginning to come around myself.
I won't be able to test this deck probably until the weekend, please keep us updated on your testing and States!
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4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Arbor Elf
4 Centaur Healer
2 Borderland Ranger
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
2 Armada Wurm
3 Angel of Serenity
Planeswalker's (2)
2 Garruk Relentless
Spell's (7)
4 Farseek
2 Ranger's Path
1 Sever the Bloodline
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Woodland Cemetery
3 Vault of the Archangel
2 Gavony Township
4 Forest
2 Plains
So like I said, I wasn't able to test against as many decks as I wanted (I only tested against one actually) so I don't exactly have the best feel for the deck yet but I was able to play enough games to gain a basic understanding of what I can possibly see changing moving ahead.
-One thing that struck me right off the bat was the sheer amount of mana I had on the board at any given time but not having all of the bombs that I would have wanted. Numerous times I was holding and/or drawing into my mana dorks or more land. With 25 lands, 8 one-drop dorks, 2 Borderland Rangers and 6 ramp spells, I'm wondering if I have too much mana? I know that seems like a stupid question in a mana ramp deck but every game I literally had way more mana than I knew what to do with. I'm thinking about lowering the land count to 24 or 23 and adding 1-2 Keyrunes.
-Another thing...this deck gains lots of life! I haven't tested against Zombies yet but I can envision not having the need to board that much for them. Maybe just the silver bullets such as Rest in Peace and Knight of Glory will be enough. There wasn't one game where I didn't have at least 35 life at some point. Yes, the deck I was playing against dirdled a little more than Zombies or any other aggro deck but turn 2 Healers and turn 3/4 Thragtusks were extremely common...combined with Vault of the Archangel (which is reason enough to run Black in this deck), even against Zombies my game plan wouldn't have been any different.
-I'm so torn on Borderland Ranger. I think with my mana dorks, he may be unnecessary but there were a few times he helped smooth out my land drops and also blinked him a few times with Resto Angel with no one else on the board to blink. Which brings me to my next point...
-I wish this deck had more draw. I might replace my two Borderland Rangers with Disciple of Bolas. I can see the card draw really being useful.
-I feel like Fiend Hunter could have a home in this deck as well. It could get the Angel chain in full swing and has awesome synergy with Resto Angel. This guy is also in contention for the 2-of Borderland Ranger slot.
Well that's all I can think of for now. Interested in any thoughts and/or critique!
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Hmmm, interesting idea about splashing red for Rakdos's Return. So that's primarily for the mirror? Have you been having success with that? And with the way this deck is already greedy with it's mana base, why not just stick a Mountain in the SB to bring in with it? Then you could maybe bring in Ancient Grudge for artifact removal as well seeing as you don't have Crushing Vines in your SB.
I agree having Garruk is worth more than the Keyrunes but I'd love to find a way to fit both. I think for now, I'll be going with the dorks though.
Also can you explain the Griselbrand in your SB? Sorry if you already went over it somewhere else, I'm just curious.
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Good points. I see the value in the mana dorks but I also like the OP's list running the keyrunes. Only thing is thinking about it more, those 3-drop keyrunes kind of conflict with much better turn 3 plays like the Healer, Garruk, Resto Angel, etc.
I think i may try a 3/4 mix of Pilgrim and Elf, and also throw in some Gavony Townships.
I hope to post a list soon and get some testing in.
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To me that's the major difference in the direction this deck could go. All the other cards are mostly interchangeable.
Does anyone have much experience in this? Has anyone added or removed either the Pilgrim or the Elf for these reasons? And does not having a one drop accelerant put you back significantly?
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I think there's one too many Angel of Serenity. 3 seems to be the right number here just because it's at the top of your curve and you want to cut down on having anymore than 1 in your opening grip.
Same thing with Ranger's Path, Terminus and Selesyna Keyrune. Take Terminus...it's very good in the turns before you lay a huge fatty. After that, you don't want to be tanking your big guys. However, by the time you can hardcast it, you'll want to be playing a Thragtusk, Armada Wurm, etc. I'd opt for 2x Terminus and then two other control cards maybe Abrupt Decay, Garruk Relentless or Oblivion Ring.
Ranger's Path is the top end of your ramp, if you've played a keyrune or Farseek prior to that, you're pretty set on your way to getting a decent turn 4-6 fatty. Also to eliminate the chances of a late game topdeck Ranger's Path, I'd take it down to 2x. This gives you a slot for Borderland Ranger which I think is a very important piece to this deck. It doesn't ramp, but it does other things such as consistently getting your land drops, being a body to block, being a body for Disciple of Bolas and being another blink-able target for Resto Angel - all of which are very good qualities.
Selesnya Keyrune is good ramp in this deck...and maybe I'm wrong here but I think you could get away taking it down to 3x....maybe siding in the 4th against control.
So here's what I would suggest (keeping in mind I haven't tested this as much as I'd like to have):
-2x Terminus
-2x Ranger's Path
-1x Selesnya Keyrune
-1x Angel of Serenity
+3x Borderland Ranger
+2x Abrupt Decay
+1x Oblivion Ring
Some other cards to consider in the 75 are:
Sever the Bloodline
Garruk Relentless and/or Garruk Packleader
I have to say I was on the fence about Lingerings Souls before reading your post but I think you've convinced me to leave it out of the 75. Good points!
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I think the lists that were running Borderland Ranger used him to gain more consistency in land drops. In this deck you need to be playing at least one land per turn. And having anywhere from 2-4 Rangers just made that happen more consistently. But yeah, if you're just looking at chump blockers, then there's other options that are better.
The fact that he's human is good with Angel of Glory's Rise.
OK, that's fair, I understand what you are saying, I just don't see the value in running GoST among other cards you mentioned that don't seem to do anything when being Seanced other than a body to block. I feel there are other cards worthy of that purpose that also add effect when they're resurrected.
And someone correct me if I'm wrong but if you Seance a Strangleroot Geist and it dies, it won't come back via undying. Tokens hit the graveyard before being exiled.
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I think you might be interpreting Seance wrong. It can trigger on any player's upkeep but the tokens go away at the beginning of THE next end step, not YOUR next end step. Therefore if you create a token on an opponent's upkeep, that token will exile at the beginning of their end step and you won't have it next turn to attack with.