Counter a Farseek/Ranger's Path/Terminus/Temporal Manipulation/Bonfire of the Damned/Entreat the Angels/Dreadbore/Rakdos' Return/Mulch/Mizzium Mortars/Unburial Rites.
Kill a Huntmaster of the Fells/Izzet Staticaster/Snapcaster Mage/Thalia/Avacyn's Pilgrim/Arbor Elf/Champion of the Parish(on the play)/Deathrite Shaman/Nightshade Peddler/Rakdos Cackler/Diregraf Ghoul/Gravecrawler/Rhox Faithmender/Stromkirk Noble/Acidic Slime/Ash Zealot/Stonewright/Knight of Infamy/Lightning Mauler/Silverblade Paladin/Trostani.
Oh, and let's not forget the fact that not only does the third ability function as a Thought Scour'ish effect on yourself if you need to..but it also works as a Jace-Man-Mode +2 late game on your opponent to ensure that your opponent is drawing garbage.
Yeah man..you guys are right..this card is so bad.
My thoughts exactly. I'm super pumped for this card and i think it will end up being a lot better than most here are speculating. Just the fact that I might be able to sleeve up my Delvers again makes me happy
I can weigh in on the Collective Blessing debate. But first...
Hey guys, great discussion going! Cassial, I mentioned in the Naya thread that I'd post my GW aggro list I was toying around with on Cockatrice a few weeks back. Seems I was on to something just didn't test it enough since I was vainly attempting to make Junk Midrange work (bummer). Anyway, my list is pretty close to yours just with a few differences. Here's the list:
As you can see, I wasn't playing Farseek and instead opted for Elvish Visionary as my two-drop with Elvish Archdruid as a way to get maximum use out of my elves while helping me to ramp. Like I said, it was just an idea I was testing out and honestly, kind of forgot about the list since I was on to other decks at the moment. Craterhoof was one of the win-cons, as ramping up to him with the 12 mana dorks wasn't too hard.
The idea being to get maximum use out of my mana dorks then led me to try out Collective Blessing. And I can say I was never upset to draw one. Playing CB drew lots of "hmmm" and "thinking" from my opponents, haha, but if it stuck, it was a card that said "answer me now or you're in trouble."
So what CB did was this: Thragtusk tokens are now 6/6 beaters - control couldn't anymore just sweep the board and let their own Thragtusk token trade with our 3/3. Now they had a 6/6 to worry about and find either another sweeper or an Azorius Charm. Also, EOT Resto Angels are now 6/7 fliers flashed in after Hellkite ETB triggers and live to swing back for 6 in the air next turn. You'd think that 4/4 mana dorks would be the best reason to play CB - and don't get me wrong, it is pretty awesome to play 4/4's for G - but I'd say flashing in a 6/7 flier quickly became the reason to play CB IMO.
So anyway, that's my experiences with Collective Blessing and also my first list. I think I would make some changes to the list if I were to play it now...sideboard would definitely be re-tooled. I don't know if Smiters in the board would still be there; they were originally for control decks and RDW.
Anyway, hope that helps out. I'm looking forward to seeing the results of your testing, Cassial.
I've got tons of feedback on Bant overall, and it's going to come across preachy, bear with me. The B splash I think is probably one of the best ways to actually disrupt them and attack from different angles throughout the game - Rakdos's Return, Slaughter Games, and even Vraska the Unseen (my favorite post board just for control).
But before we decide black splash is a must, let's go back to that SCG list earlier in the thread - Shifflet's version, and how he made it work with Naya and more importantly why it worked. We've (all) done a great deal of brainstorming new tech, ideas and cards in this thread, but there's been little discussion I think of the why behind certain cards *before* making changes.
Consider - Shifflet's version runs a full 4 Thundermaw Hellkite main - this is his answer, his game plan, to dealing with Bant/control in general, by simply overpowering and being aggressive enough. This in my opinion is probably the simplest and most effective answer to combat control, and a very solid reason for playing pure Naya over the 4c value variants. He also had 3x Angel of Serenity in the sideboard - I'm absolutely certain these came *in* against control, because if you can be that offensive and put your opponent on tilt with 5/5 hasty fliers, they're going to be forced to do Sphinx's Revelations for x=3 or use Supreme Verdict on a single Hellkite. The more midrange you go, the more TIME you give control, the worse off you are ultimately, if your game plan is to be proactive beatdown. This is a very obvious truth of aggro vs control, and it's nothing new to anyone, but, my biggest point is that the 4x Thundermaw Hellkite (with zero Primal Hunter main) version probably does a better job at playing aggro than say a version running some mix of Sigarda, Garruk, and Armada Wurms, simply because it's faster. The AoS post board are simply there to keep recurring Hellkites or other critters that were sweeped.
Remember when we (@Redirus and Poppa) all played Junk Midrange, we sort of all came to the consensus that AoS was worthless against control? - Because in *that* matchup we weren't fast enough to force bad 1 for 1's on sweepers, and had little to nothing to recur with our AoS.
Anyway, I think getting some black in there as a means of disruption is great, it's not surefire, and you'd generally want to name Sphinx's Revelation first. But when it comes down to what <insert extremely narrow artifact I'd never use in a hundred years because it doesn't further my gameplan, it's merely a very reactive measure to what they could do to me> enters the equation - IE Sands of Delirium or even so far as to include Elixir of Immortality just to try hanging in there longer (assuming it doesn't get milled by THEM) - Perhaps it's time we re-assessed whether our beatdown was good enough/strong enough/fast enough in the first place, or we wouldn't be at this point.
This is a proactive beatdown deck at it's core, and unfortunately we have about 6-7 dead cards against control that need to come out - the Bonfires, the spot removal (Selesnya Charm etc), and the spot burn in your case (Searing Spear). Poppa, with regards to your list at least, I would recommend you give 2-3x Triumph of Ferocity a try if nothing else vs *any* control matchup. Not to mention 1-2x Ray of Revelation as the perfect 1-for-2 card meant to protect anything you have in play from their Rings/Spheres, and ensure the Triumph engine accelerates us. I really think you'll see a dramatic difference just getting an early Triumph online, and will worry less about having the right "what if" cards, if you can simply do your proactive job better and put the screws on them instead.
TLDR: Disrupt them better or just beatdown better?
Great points! When I switched over to Naya, I dropped the Underworld Connections out of the SB obviously but completely forgot about Triumph of Ferocity which i had tested in Junk earlier. Now I have to rethink my gameplan possibly. I could still try the black splash which locks up at least 3 slots - 2x Slaughter Games and 1x Swamp...possibly 1x Vraska also. Then I have to decide whether also to SB ToF. I think I could get away with 2x by dipping into my Centaur Healer count. I have yet to board in all 4x against any deck anyway. Hmmm, something to think about. No matter what, my SB will have to be strongly geared against control, with the rest being general utility.
And I'm not ready to drop the AoS just yet. I feel I'm already pretty aggressive, especially after increasing my Resto Angels to 4x. I need to test this SB plan more before I can make a call on that.
Just throwing it out there as well - I'm personally not running Naya at the moment IRL, I started a new thread/hopefully turning it into a primer for straight GW Midrange over in G/X Midrange. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=472467
I won't wall the details in here, but the premise of this decks' main is COMPLETELY PROACTIVE. There are zero Oblivion Ring or Selesnya Charm or "what if" plays, it is 110% laser focused on answering these what if's by doing the beatdown job as best it can. And it's not aggro, it's just big and rampy. I got some very promising test results in from a lot of gauntlet testing against 4-5c control and Esper control last night, both versions running 7-8 sweepers, winning probably 70% of the matches.
I can definitely say it has solid game against control, and possibly stomps aggro/other midrange more than our 4c/naya/jund/other midrange decks by boasting more value/life gain.
Checked out this list and it looks really cool. It's actually a lot like a GW ramp/midrange list I was toying with before I switched over to Naya. I'll go post that list in your new thread...it's a little like yours, I think there were 3x Wurms, but I opted for an Elf sub-theme and maindecked Collective Blessing as I found it great in the SB and always wanted to board it in - I guess like a mini Akroma's Memorial which you're now running the in SB.
Anyway, I'll post my list there when I have some time. Thanks as always for the input!
So Bant control is the new thing heh? WNM, lost to it. That deck was like a fog deck. Gain life, draw cards, sweep and repeat. OK OK Game 1 I mulled to 4 and Game 2 I mulled to 5, but both games went long.
So since I have SB space I was thinking of a singleton Sands of delirium or an elixir of immortality. I think Sands would be better. OH yea BTW, lost game 2 by being milled..... Because they dig and draw so much there is never a lot of cards left and I am sure to have LOTS of lands in play.
I think I SB one in.
What have you guys experienced?
Yes, I've encountered this deck often the past week on Cockatrice (most versions I've seen were playing Psychic Spiral so they don't deck themselves). It is very well set up to beat midrange decks like us, and the only games I've won, it was on the back of lucky top decks and a combination of them not getting good draws. Obviously we can't expect our opponent to fumble if we want a chance to win.
Sands of Delirium is an interesting choice, one I hadn't thought of. I agree it's probably better than Elixir, however if they are holding a Psychic Spiral in hand already we're just adding fuel to the fire with Sands. And then also if you SB only one, you have the chance of it just getting milled away.
I was taking it from a different angle and was going back to a black splash out of the board for Slaughter Games. However, then comes the decision of what card to name since even though I would board in 2-3, chances are I'll only get one SG. Should I name Revelation, Verdict, Fog, etc??? I feel naming Revelation if I play SB turn 3 or 4 is probably correct, however, late game, it might be a toss-up depending on what I've seen from them already. Not sure about this and would love to get other's opinions.
What about a singleton Worldspine Wurm to combat milling shenanigans?
These long, grindy decks featuring Revelation along side counters and board wipes with few creatures are giving me the most problems. It's largely considered a bad card but sometimes I feel Faith's Reward would just lead to huge blowouts against these decks...of course you have to have it at exactly the right time.
Any other cards we're over-looking? Any other thoughts?
+1 bumping for justice/life in this thread again. Hey dood, like the list, I've got a few quips for you to think on if you want. That is probably my favorite single well balanced creature package I've seen yet - screw Loxodon Smiter and staying at 3, let's just run a full set of Borderland Ranger and make sure we get to 4 and GO BIG!
I just have a few thoughts on the removal package - with your 24 meaty creatures, dragons, angels and beasts, what exactly are you worried about your deck having problems with the most?
I'm honestly thinking you may consider moving Garruk over to the side - for the simple reason that your creature/bomb count is already very high without him. Just by the looks of it, your creature suite is extremely proactive/offensive/aggressive - for game 1 at least. I think you may be going in two different directions, or I may just be a hyper focused individual who prefers G1/mainboard be a 110% focused plan. So I'll ask you rather than assume I know, but what do you ultimately want your G1 plan to look like? Angel of Serenity feels strictly for midrange vs midrange wars to me, or perhaps control to recycle your guys, Garruk is very much the same + he's resilient against control. If both Angel and Garruk are in your main, your main is basically saying you want the game to always go long and you're boarded against enemy midrange - the flip side of the coin could be mainboarding against aggro, which Naya does extremely efficiently.
Alright, let's get this thread going again, thanks for the quick reply!
Yes, after testing 2x, then 3x, then 4x Borderland Rangers, I'm convinced 4x is the right amount here. Sometimes played on turn 2, often played on turn 3, he usually still manages to get in 2-6 damage before he bites it. By that time, he's done his job - pulling lands out of the deck while aiding a fragile mana base and possibly even getting in there with the help of a Wolf Run...he's an alright guy
And yes, Smiter is a great guy but in this deck, I really wanted to go big. I kept going back and forth on Smiter because of the rise of control again. But for now without a Rancor or Silverblade Paladin to bond him, he's staying at home.
So about Searing Spear...during my time playing Junk ramp, I had been playing Selesnya Charm maindeck and I loved it except that I would find myself wishing it was unconditional removal or burn more often than not. I feel that my creatures are most of the time going to be bigger than my opponent's creatures. Because of this, I wanted a way to take care of the smaller creatures that are still very impactful to the game but laugh at S Charm. I'm talking about guys like Avacyn's Pilgrim, Blood Artist, Silverblade Paladin, Deathrite Shaman, Sublime Archangel, Knight of Infamy, the list goes on. I see it as a way of mitigating damage until I can take over with my creatures and/or sweep with a Bonfire.
I feel Spear is pretty good against Rites also which is a matchup where we need to keep their creatures off the board at all costs. I agree that S. Charm can kill an attacking Huntmaster or wolf token but Spear can be more proactive in that matchup. Since Hellkite already takes care of the Lingering Souls tokens, it's just another way of holding down the fort.
Of course there are the occasions where I sandbag a Spear or two and finish off the game with burn to the dome. I do have three Charms in the board for m/u's where they're better than Spear such as UWR Midrange, the mirror, etc. Also, they're good to have against opposing Planeswalkers.
I don't know, maybe I'm trying to justify a card that doesn't fit here, but it's been great so far in my testing. I do like O-Ring in the main though, I played one in my Junk list and I was never sad to see one.
About Garruk/AoS, I see what you're saying. I should say that I use Garruk mostly as a "draw 5" for 2GGG, but he's also great against Verdict...and most decks running Verdict are running Revelation and I feel it's vital to keep the pressure on a deck like that and Garruk fits the bill both by being resilient to sweepers as well as keeping up with their card draw. With the rise of control-oriented decks, Angel of Serenity kind of serves a similar purpose by getting back the creatures that were countered previously. By the time I cast her, it's usually off a Cavern naming "angel." And against aggro, casting her is almost always game.
I had thought about cutting AoS previously and relegating her to the SB but she's just been a blow-out more often than not. And I'm only running 2x which I think is the right number in this deck. I think I would move Garruk to the SB before anything. I think I'll test that later tonight.
One change I think I might make right off the bat is upping Restoration Angel to 4x. Reason being is that if I get to untap with Huntmaster, most of the time I want to flip him which means I'm not casting anything that turn. Shipping the turn back to the opponent with Resto Angel mana up means I can either bail him out if they try to kill it EOT or before it flips...or I can flip, kill a dude, do some damage and EOT play my Angel for another wolf. Also, I've found out an un-molested Huntmaster on my turn could mean a Supreme Verdict from my opponent next turn, thinking they've Silenced me for a turn. At least i can keep up the tempo with an EOT Angel after the board wipe. Probably will drop the Burning Oil for another Resto Angel.
So here are two suggestions I know are kind of "out there" but had to bring them up anyway...
Prey Upon...our guys are almost always going to be bigger than our opponent's. Wolf Run lets even a late game Pilgrim take out a Hellkite. Eh...sounds good on paper, but it's still better probably than the next suggestion...
So after some time tweaking a Junk Midrange list for weeks, I've decided I'm switching over to Naya colors. It's no big surprise, I had planned on switching over once Gatecrash comes out just for the better mana base, but I figured why wait? Junk just didn't have the removal answers that I was looking for...plus I really wanted to play Huntmaster, Bonfire, Hellkite and Kessig Wolf Run as I feel they add the reach and potency that Junk lacked.
So here's the initial list I began testing last week, splashing black out of the board for Slaughter Games and Vraska to combat control:
Few things about that list...trying out Burning Oil on the advice of Cassial (whom was a major contributor over in the Junk Midrange thread) for now in the place of Selesnya Charm. I don't really have an opinion yet of it since I never really draw it. The one time I did though was against a Piked-Spirit token which was a great time to have one. Other than that though I can't really comment on its effectiveness now over Charm. I still am a huge advocate of Charm and I run 3 out of the board for a number of things, Geist being one of the main reasons. What have others thought about Burning Oil?
Also, the singleton Mana Bloom is just there to be the 5th (bad version of) Farseek which I feel is imperative to this deck to hit 4 mana on turn 3. It's also another way to get B post-board.
I hate saying this cause I love the card but I'm so underwhelmed with Armada Wurm. I just feel that it's too slow. Yeah, it's two big creatures and plays great with Resto Angel but I really just would rather play Thragtusk turn 4 and then Thundermaw Hellkite turn 5. And then there are times when we just stall out on 5 lands. I'm considering dropping the Wurms and adding one more Hellkite and either one more Angel of Serenity or another Borderland Ranger.
Bonfire has been an all-star. 3 seems like the perfect number.
Overall with this list, I am happy with the changes I outlined above and then giving Burning Oil another week of testing before deciding whether I like it enough over Selesnya Charm to keep it. The other change I'd make is add 2x Zealous Conscripts to the SB...can't believe I left them out.
And then this brings me to brew #2, Dark Naya...
Then yesterday I was thinking of a change to my list and wondering how easy it would be to implement black into the maindeck. I was wondering this for two reasons...one being that I could remove the Swamp out of the board for another slot and have a smoother transition, and two being Falkenrath Aristocrat. I got to thinking how there were more humans in this deck than I originally realized and I also began thinking of how many tokens this deck can spit out via Huntmaster/Resto, Thragtusk and Garruk, PhD. Taking into account the great synergy that Aristocrat/Conscripts has and that I already really wanted to SB them anyway, I started with three Aristocrats as my only black spell and dropped AoS to 1x. I added a Blood Crypt and an Overgrown Tomb with Farseek and Mana Bloom to get me my four colors. The list looks like this:
I only was able to get in one night's worth of testing online but this list performed better than the standard Naya list above it. The 4 drop slot is a little clogged and I still need to figure that out, but now this deck is applying some serious pressure and some pretty consistent pressure. I haven't missed Armada Wurm at all...I haven't missed the one-less AoS yet (in fact, I could drop her all together which sounds a little mental but more on that later) and I haven't had many mana issues. There was one game where I played a Ranger and had to decide if Huntmaster was more important or Aristocrat was more important...I chose Huntmaster. But regardless, there needs to be a lot more testing done before I take the 4-color plunge.
And yes, I was able to pull off the Zealous Conscripts/Aristocrat combo a few times which feels oh so good being able to do that
So the question remains though and I keep asking myself this: is Falkenrath Aristocrat good enough to add a fourth color? The major points to consider when asking yourself that is she is the only card requiring black mana in the maindeck...and also that I then would have sideboard choices like Slaughter Games and Rakdos's Return to bring in against combo/midrange/mirror. I'd love to get everyone's take on this.
I hope to do more testing tonight and tomorrow before sleeving it up for a tournament.
-Upped Borderland Ranger count to 4 being my only three drop. Ever since I've done that, my draws have been much smoother and I also always can assure a turn 3-4 Huntmaster and turn 4-5 Hellkite.
-Armada Wurm got the ax. It just wasn't up to speed. Hellkite went up to 3x and Borderland Ranger up to 4x.
-Added 2x Searing Spear maindeck in lieu of Selesnya Charm. I can't say enough how happy I've been with them either. I like the fact that i can be proactive and kill an opposing mana dork, Deathrite Shaman, Rakdos Keyrune, Blood Artist, etc which wouldn't have been possible with Selesnya Charm. Yes, Bonfire can kill those creatures too but not as quickly as Spear can and I can't rely on miracling Bonfire all the time. Have another in the board for aggro decks...have thought about making it a Pillar in the board but still testing.
-Took out the black splash sideboard plan in favor of a more mana-friendly 15. I loved the ability to play Slaughter Games against our control and reanimator matchups but for now I'm settling for Nevermore. I still may go back to the black splash just for Slaughter Games, but so far Nevermore has been doing a decent job of serving *kind of* the same purpose. I basically want to keep opponents from playing stuff like Revelation, Unburial Rites, etc. Slaughter Games is so much better at doing this so for now this is still being tested. I hope my testing tells me i should get greedy and add black in the board
As always, comments, critique, suggestions welcome!
So after some time tweaking a Junk Midrange list for weeks, I've decided I'm switching over to Naya colors. It's no big surprise, I had planned on switching over once Gatecrash comes out just for the better mana base, but I figured why wait? Junk just didn't have the removal answers that I was looking for...plus I really wanted to play Huntmaster, Bonfire, Hellkite and Kessig Wolf Run as I feel they add the reach and potency that Junk lacked.
So here's the initial list I began testing last week, splashing black out of the board for Slaughter Games and Vraska to combat control:
Few things about that list...trying out Burning Oil on the advice of Cassial (whom was a major contributor over in the Junk Midrange thread) for now in the place of Selesnya Charm. I don't really have an opinion yet of it since I never really draw it. The one time I did though was against a Piked-Spirit token which was a great time to have one. Other than that though I can't really comment on its effectiveness now over Charm. I still am a huge advocate of Charm and I run 3 out of the board for a number of things, Geist being one of the main reasons. What have others thought about Burning Oil?
Also, the singleton Mana Bloom is just there to be the 5th (bad version of) Farseek which I feel is imperative to this deck to hit 4 mana on turn 3. It's also another way to get B post-board.
I hate saying this cause I love the card but I'm so underwhelmed with Armada Wurm. I just feel that it's too slow. Yeah, it's two big creatures and plays great with Resto Angel but I really just would rather play Thragtusk turn 4 and then Thundermaw Hellkite turn 5. And then there are times when we just stall out on 5 lands. I'm considering dropping the Wurms and adding one more Hellkite and either one more Angel of Serenity or another Borderland Ranger.
Bonfire has been an all-star. 3 seems like the perfect number.
Overall with this list, I am happy with the changes I outlined above and then giving Burning Oil another week of testing before deciding whether I like it enough over Selesnya Charm to keep it. The other change I'd make is add 2x Zealous Conscripts to the SB...can't believe I left them out.
And then this brings me to brew #2, Dark Naya...
Then yesterday I was thinking of a change to my list and wondering how easy it would be to implement black into the maindeck. I was wondering this for two reasons...one being that I could remove the Swamp out of the board for another slot and have a smoother transition, and two being Falkenrath Aristocrat. I got to thinking how there were more humans in this deck than I originally realized and I also began thinking of how many tokens this deck can spit out via Huntmaster/Resto, Thragtusk and Garruk, PhD. Taking into account the great synergy that Aristocrat/Conscripts has and that I already really wanted to SB them anyway, I started with three Aristocrats as my only black spell and dropped AoS to 1x. I added a Blood Crypt and an Overgrown Tomb with Farseek and Mana Bloom to get me my four colors. The list looks like this:
I only was able to get in one night's worth of testing online but this list performed better than the standard Naya list above it. The 4 drop slot is a little clogged and I still need to figure that out, but now this deck is applying some serious pressure and some pretty consistent pressure. I haven't missed Armada Wurm at all...I haven't missed the one-less AoS yet (in fact, I could drop her all together which sounds a little mental but more on that later) and I haven't had many mana issues. There was one game where I played a Ranger and had to decide if Huntmaster was more important or Aristocrat was more important...I chose Huntmaster. But regardless, there needs to be a lot more testing done before I take the 4-color plunge.
And yes, I was able to pull off the Zealous Conscripts/Aristocrat combo a few times which feels oh so good being able to do that
So the question remains though and I keep asking myself this: is Falkenrath Aristocrat good enough to add a fourth color? The major points to consider when asking yourself that is she is the only card requiring black mana in the maindeck...and also that I then would have sideboard choices like Slaughter Games and Rakdos's Return to bring in against combo/midrange/mirror. I'd love to get everyone's take on this.
I hope to do more testing tonight and tomorrow before sleeving it up for a tournament.
I'm thoroughly exhausted with this deck. Will be switching over to Naya midrange when Gatecrash comes out...probably moving over to UWR Midrange for the time-being.
BAsically as far as midrange/ramp decks go, we're at a disadvantage to almost every other color combination. Bant ramp/midrange is just plain better and Naya midrange opens up a lot more options and removal by adding red. Even the Grixis grindy midrange decks are basically designed to beat us. 4 color reanimator seems to still be a thing and we're already at a great disadvantage due to our lack of good removal there.
Sucks because I really like this deck and I've always loved the "junk" color combination. But at least for me, I have to be honest with myself when I realize that GWB just doesn't provide the best cards possible for a midrange ramp deck...it's only my opinion but it's also an opinion I've come to after lots and lots of testing and tweaking.
Sooooo...good luck to the diehard "Junkies" that still haven't given up. I hope you can find a combination that makes this deck work and I come crawling back after you've broken the meta
If anyone wants my list, let me know...it's late and I don't feel like writing it all out now.
But one card no one here has considered yet: Prey Upon. It's out there, I know but late game once you have a Vault active, even a mana dork becomes "G: Destroy this creature and another target creature." And most times, you should have a bigger creature than your opponent anyway.
1. Your creature count is very low to be considered an aggro deck. Compared to your spell count, this feels like more of a midrange deck. However, the creatures you have listed here are at odds with that type of deck (for example besides Artistocrat, you have no big, bomby guy such as Thundermaw Hellkite). There will be some major changes you will need to consider to get the results you want.
2. Going with that, Blood Artist is out of place here. Not enough creatures to get any value out of him. The reason zombies is able to play him is they have lots of recurring creatures such as Gravecrawler and Geralf's Messenger.
3. Drop Disentomb for more creatures. You're an aggro deck, thus you're proactive, not reactive/defensive.
4. Devil's Play maybe as a 1-of maindeck and maybe 1 or 2 in the sideboard. You are playing 22 lands...you won't be casting this for much more than 3-4 damage ever. Still worth a slot or two though. This brings me to #5...
5. Searing Spear and Brimstone Volley are two of the best creature/player burn spells you have access to right now in addition to Pillar of Flame. Thunderbolt is a great sideboard card but due to it's limitations, it is relegated to the SB. The reach you can get with Volley can sometimes put games away.
I'm making these suggestions based on the assumption you are intending this to be a competitive deck since you posted this in the Competitive forum. If you haven't checked it out yet, perhaps you'd be better served to jump in the discussion and read this thread here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/forumdisplay.php?f=682 (check out the Primers at the top) as there's lots of great reports and suggestions from people who play this deck day in and day out. Good luck on your build and at Gen-Con!
Does anyone know what happened to these cards? Did someone buy them off of Craigslist, and/or was there any legal action taken against the guy who (allegedly) stole them?
I second this. I've been wondering this for some time now.
I tested this to the point where I found resolving Omniscience was basically insta-win, but I also don't think i'll test this deck anymore unless we get another way to get Omniscience into play.
Ramping into it is not a good game plan, it shows. Even if you turn 6 Omniscience, you were literally doing nothing until that point.
Currently I feel like if you're just going to last through a long game and getting to 10 mana, you might as well just Door to Nothingness them for a 1-card-win.
Agreed. However if that blue mythic that was spoiled turns out to be real (the one that draws your entire deck), that might be the best thing to happen to Omniscience in Standard. Play Omniscience, draw deck and just burn away.
I wasn't arguing it's consistency, just explaining the combo. But it also goes to show that if you cast Omniscience, you have a ton of mana. In this situation, you can tap everything for Omniscience, free cast Ambition grabbing your first angel, free cast Angel, picking up any problem creatures on the board, and easily survive to your next untap step. Where you can EASILY hardcast the flashback for 7 and grab another ambition and temporal mastery. Take another turn. Free cast ambition, grabbing 2nd angel. Untap for your free turn, safely flashing back ambition, grabbing 3rd angel and thragtusk.
If you have Omniscience and Ambition, and line of plays chaining ambitions, temporals, etc... you'll get there easily without your opponent doing anything.
Get what I mean?
Even if you need to go off NOW, the first ambition can get temporal mastery. Take your second turn, safely flashing it back, getting another ambition and an angel. cast angel, pick **** up, cast ambition for another temporal mastery. take another turn, untap for free turn, flashback ambition for angel thragtusk... I don't need to continue.
Again, i'm not saying it's consistent, but it is essentially a two card combo that instantly wins you the game.
Well I wish you the best of luck and truly do hope you can make this work because I'm a huge Griselbrand fan and also have been curious about Omniscience in Standard since it came out...not to mention I really want to use the playset of Chromatic Lantern I have laying around, hehe.
this is the deck that Ari Lax posted... It is not easy to change anything in the deck. T2 farseek, T3 ranger's path, T4 wipe board with angel,
My only changes are maybe to take one Thragtusk and one Thoughtflare out for a deadeye navigator and a zealous conscripts for another win condition.
Most games you durdle tossing thraggies and angels in the way until you can drop a omniscience in play with a increasing ambition in hand. Cast the ambition to get a temporal mastery, cast it. Next turn flashback ambition to get either deadeye and zealous to go off there or maybe a griselbrand and another ambition......it really snowballs from the moment you drop omniscience.
After omni hits play only counter's and a timely removal spell (on an angel if you are looping angels to go off) are the opponents only possible outs. They should never take another turn...
Stating the obvious of how an aggro deck with "the nuts" will win over this deck or any other deck does nothing to help. I want answers to those issues...the ones I have been looking at so far are loxodon smiters and curse of death's hold. Those cards are specific to B/R decks packing aristocrats and hellkites to try and give us an extra turn or two to go off.
As someone who's been playing Junk Ramp for the past few months, I can tell you that rarely will you curve out like that. 9 times out of 10 you will be holding a Ranger's Path in hand wishing it was lifegain or removal. I think it's really dangerous to depend on a 7 drop clearing the board for you on turn 4. And even if you do that, like others have commented, you still are probably sitting on 8-10 life and they're most likely sitting on removal since you haven't played any creatures yet anyway. I really think you will need something like Supreme Verdict here to have a fighting chance. Terminus is too mana-intensive and doesn't interact well if you're chaining Angels (which I assume is how you will do the infinite Thragtusk thing).
A turn 4 goldfish kill from an aggro deck does not require the nuts. Your implication that it does suggests to me that you are not playtesting against a competitive aggro deck. I don't think that building a deck based on an unrealistic view of the opposition is a productive way to spend your time.
Although it may be a tough pill to swallow, I agree 100% with this and think you really need to accept this as constructive criticism. Aggro decks are so good now simply because 75% of their hands are "the nuts."
You will hardly ever have 3 Angels at once...you will only have 2 Angels half the time...and you will also hardly ever have 2 Angels and 1 Increasing Ambition in hand...and you will be dead if you have to wait an entire turn to hardcast its flashback. I really hate to be a downer but I think is a pie-in-the-sky scenario. I'm not saying you're endorsing it, you may have just posted this to illustrate that the combo can be achieved. If you had some kind of free sac-outlet, you could pull this off with two Angels though which would probably increase its consistency 10-fold.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and I guess that's what the Emancipation Angel is for too. Having her means you only need 2 Angel of Serenity for the combo. Still, it's just as hard to pull this off I think.
It seems to me the best way to use Omniscience in Standard is to stall with mass removal, flexible permanent spot removal, gain some life, eventually get out Griselbrand, draw 7, use those spells to gain life and burn so you can draw 7 more and so on.
Ari Lax at SCG has worked on an Omni-combo deck......
Once you ramp with farseek, ranger's path and gilded lotus to put omniscience in play you can combo win immediately.
Combo's with Angel of Serenity and thragtusks to get infinite life and infinite tokens, it also wins off of Griselbrand + Temporal Mastery to hit multiple times to win.... and the combo that usually wins in the deck is Nicol Bolas Planeswalker + Temporal Mastery to ultimate bolas and win.
I love the deck and am playing it this weekend in Baltimore at the SCG open. I added deadeye navigator and zealous conscripts with the already mentioned Gilded lotus to have a back up combo win condition.
short of counters from opponent at the right time if you drop omniscience with this deck you win. Most decks have NO way to stop the win.
My thoughts exactly. I'm super pumped for this card and i think it will end up being a lot better than most here are speculating. Just the fact that I might be able to sleeve up my Delvers again makes me happy
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Hey guys, great discussion going! Cassial, I mentioned in the Naya thread that I'd post my GW aggro list I was toying around with on Cockatrice a few weeks back. Seems I was on to something just didn't test it enough since I was vainly attempting to make Junk Midrange work (bummer). Anyway, my list is pretty close to yours just with a few differences. Here's the list:
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Arbor Elf
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Borderland Ranger
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
3 Armada Wurm
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Selesnya Charm
Enchantments
3 Collective Blessing
Lands
7 Forest
1 Plains
4 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Gavony Township
2 Selesnya Charm
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Triumph of Ferocity
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
As you can see, I wasn't playing Farseek and instead opted for Elvish Visionary as my two-drop with Elvish Archdruid as a way to get maximum use out of my elves while helping me to ramp. Like I said, it was just an idea I was testing out and honestly, kind of forgot about the list since I was on to other decks at the moment. Craterhoof was one of the win-cons, as ramping up to him with the 12 mana dorks wasn't too hard.
The idea being to get maximum use out of my mana dorks then led me to try out Collective Blessing. And I can say I was never upset to draw one. Playing CB drew lots of "hmmm" and "thinking" from my opponents, haha, but if it stuck, it was a card that said "answer me now or you're in trouble."
So what CB did was this: Thragtusk tokens are now 6/6 beaters - control couldn't anymore just sweep the board and let their own Thragtusk token trade with our 3/3. Now they had a 6/6 to worry about and find either another sweeper or an Azorius Charm. Also, EOT Resto Angels are now 6/7 fliers flashed in after Hellkite ETB triggers and live to swing back for 6 in the air next turn. You'd think that 4/4 mana dorks would be the best reason to play CB - and don't get me wrong, it is pretty awesome to play 4/4's for G - but I'd say flashing in a 6/7 flier quickly became the reason to play CB IMO.
So anyway, that's my experiences with Collective Blessing and also my first list. I think I would make some changes to the list if I were to play it now...sideboard would definitely be re-tooled. I don't know if Smiters in the board would still be there; they were originally for control decks and RDW.
Anyway, hope that helps out. I'm looking forward to seeing the results of your testing, Cassial.
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Great points! When I switched over to Naya, I dropped the Underworld Connections out of the SB obviously but completely forgot about Triumph of Ferocity which i had tested in Junk earlier. Now I have to rethink my gameplan possibly. I could still try the black splash which locks up at least 3 slots - 2x Slaughter Games and 1x Swamp...possibly 1x Vraska also. Then I have to decide whether also to SB ToF. I think I could get away with 2x by dipping into my Centaur Healer count. I have yet to board in all 4x against any deck anyway. Hmmm, something to think about. No matter what, my SB will have to be strongly geared against control, with the rest being general utility.
And I'm not ready to drop the AoS just yet. I feel I'm already pretty aggressive, especially after increasing my Resto Angels to 4x. I need to test this SB plan more before I can make a call on that.
Checked out this list and it looks really cool. It's actually a lot like a GW ramp/midrange list I was toying with before I switched over to Naya. I'll go post that list in your new thread...it's a little like yours, I think there were 3x Wurms, but I opted for an Elf sub-theme and maindecked Collective Blessing as I found it great in the SB and always wanted to board it in - I guess like a mini Akroma's Memorial which you're now running the in SB.
Anyway, I'll post my list there when I have some time. Thanks as always for the input!
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Yes, I've encountered this deck often the past week on Cockatrice (most versions I've seen were playing Psychic Spiral so they don't deck themselves). It is very well set up to beat midrange decks like us, and the only games I've won, it was on the back of lucky top decks and a combination of them not getting good draws. Obviously we can't expect our opponent to fumble if we want a chance to win.
Sands of Delirium is an interesting choice, one I hadn't thought of. I agree it's probably better than Elixir, however if they are holding a Psychic Spiral in hand already we're just adding fuel to the fire with Sands. And then also if you SB only one, you have the chance of it just getting milled away.
I was taking it from a different angle and was going back to a black splash out of the board for Slaughter Games. However, then comes the decision of what card to name since even though I would board in 2-3, chances are I'll only get one SG. Should I name Revelation, Verdict, Fog, etc??? I feel naming Revelation if I play SB turn 3 or 4 is probably correct, however, late game, it might be a toss-up depending on what I've seen from them already. Not sure about this and would love to get other's opinions.
What about a singleton Worldspine Wurm to combat milling shenanigans?
These long, grindy decks featuring Revelation along side counters and board wipes with few creatures are giving me the most problems. It's largely considered a bad card but sometimes I feel Faith's Reward would just lead to huge blowouts against these decks...of course you have to have it at exactly the right time.
Any other cards we're over-looking? Any other thoughts?
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Alright, let's get this thread going again, thanks for the quick reply!
Yes, after testing 2x, then 3x, then 4x Borderland Rangers, I'm convinced 4x is the right amount here. Sometimes played on turn 2, often played on turn 3, he usually still manages to get in 2-6 damage before he bites it. By that time, he's done his job - pulling lands out of the deck while aiding a fragile mana base and possibly even getting in there with the help of a Wolf Run...he's an alright guy
And yes, Smiter is a great guy but in this deck, I really wanted to go big. I kept going back and forth on Smiter because of the rise of control again. But for now without a Rancor or Silverblade Paladin to bond him, he's staying at home.
So about Searing Spear...during my time playing Junk ramp, I had been playing Selesnya Charm maindeck and I loved it except that I would find myself wishing it was unconditional removal or burn more often than not. I feel that my creatures are most of the time going to be bigger than my opponent's creatures. Because of this, I wanted a way to take care of the smaller creatures that are still very impactful to the game but laugh at S Charm. I'm talking about guys like Avacyn's Pilgrim, Blood Artist, Silverblade Paladin, Deathrite Shaman, Sublime Archangel, Knight of Infamy, the list goes on. I see it as a way of mitigating damage until I can take over with my creatures and/or sweep with a Bonfire.
I feel Spear is pretty good against Rites also which is a matchup where we need to keep their creatures off the board at all costs. I agree that S. Charm can kill an attacking Huntmaster or wolf token but Spear can be more proactive in that matchup. Since Hellkite already takes care of the Lingering Souls tokens, it's just another way of holding down the fort.
Of course there are the occasions where I sandbag a Spear or two and finish off the game with burn to the dome. I do have three Charms in the board for m/u's where they're better than Spear such as UWR Midrange, the mirror, etc. Also, they're good to have against opposing Planeswalkers.
I don't know, maybe I'm trying to justify a card that doesn't fit here, but it's been great so far in my testing. I do like O-Ring in the main though, I played one in my Junk list and I was never sad to see one.
About Garruk/AoS, I see what you're saying. I should say that I use Garruk mostly as a "draw 5" for 2GGG, but he's also great against Verdict...and most decks running Verdict are running Revelation and I feel it's vital to keep the pressure on a deck like that and Garruk fits the bill both by being resilient to sweepers as well as keeping up with their card draw. With the rise of control-oriented decks, Angel of Serenity kind of serves a similar purpose by getting back the creatures that were countered previously. By the time I cast her, it's usually off a Cavern naming "angel." And against aggro, casting her is almost always game.
I had thought about cutting AoS previously and relegating her to the SB but she's just been a blow-out more often than not. And I'm only running 2x which I think is the right number in this deck. I think I would move Garruk to the SB before anything. I think I'll test that later tonight.
One change I think I might make right off the bat is upping Restoration Angel to 4x. Reason being is that if I get to untap with Huntmaster, most of the time I want to flip him which means I'm not casting anything that turn. Shipping the turn back to the opponent with Resto Angel mana up means I can either bail him out if they try to kill it EOT or before it flips...or I can flip, kill a dude, do some damage and EOT play my Angel for another wolf. Also, I've found out an un-molested Huntmaster on my turn could mean a Supreme Verdict from my opponent next turn, thinking they've Silenced me for a turn. At least i can keep up the tempo with an EOT Angel after the board wipe. Probably will drop the Burning Oil for another Resto Angel.
So here are two suggestions I know are kind of "out there" but had to bring them up anyway...
Prey Upon...our guys are almost always going to be bigger than our opponent's. Wolf Run lets even a late game Pilgrim take out a Hellkite. Eh...sounds good on paper, but it's still better probably than the next suggestion...
Fling...see above. Great synergy with AoS though.
Hope I covered everything I wanted to say...probably missed a lot, haha.
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Anyone still playing this deck???
Anyway, here is my current list:
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Borderland Ranger
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Angel of Serenity
Planeswalkers
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Spells
4 Farseek
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Searing Spear
1 Burning Oil
4 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
5 Forest
1 Plains
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Mountain
2 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Nevermore
1 Sundering Growth
4 Centaur Healer
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Selesnya Charm
1 Searing Spear
1 Ray of Revelation
Couple things of note:
-Upped Borderland Ranger count to 4 being my only three drop. Ever since I've done that, my draws have been much smoother and I also always can assure a turn 3-4 Huntmaster and turn 4-5 Hellkite.
-Armada Wurm got the ax. It just wasn't up to speed. Hellkite went up to 3x and Borderland Ranger up to 4x.
-Added 2x Searing Spear maindeck in lieu of Selesnya Charm. I can't say enough how happy I've been with them either. I like the fact that i can be proactive and kill an opposing mana dork, Deathrite Shaman, Rakdos Keyrune, Blood Artist, etc which wouldn't have been possible with Selesnya Charm. Yes, Bonfire can kill those creatures too but not as quickly as Spear can and I can't rely on miracling Bonfire all the time. Have another in the board for aggro decks...have thought about making it a Pillar in the board but still testing.
-Took out the black splash sideboard plan in favor of a more mana-friendly 15. I loved the ability to play Slaughter Games against our control and reanimator matchups but for now I'm settling for Nevermore. I still may go back to the black splash just for Slaughter Games, but so far Nevermore has been doing a decent job of serving *kind of* the same purpose. I basically want to keep opponents from playing stuff like Revelation, Unburial Rites, etc. Slaughter Games is so much better at doing this so for now this is still being tested. I hope my testing tells me i should get greedy and add black in the board
As always, comments, critique, suggestions welcome!
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So here's the initial list I began testing last week, splashing black out of the board for Slaughter Games and Vraska to combat control:
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Borderland Ranger
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Armada Wurm
2 Angel of Serenity
Enchantments
1 Mana Bloom
Planeswalkers
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Farseek
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Burning Oil
Lands
4 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
5 Forest
1 Plains
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Mountain
2 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Vraska the Unseen
1 Sundering Growth
3 Centaur Healer
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Swamp
2 Slaughter Games
3 Selesnya Charm
1 Ray of Revelation
Few things about that list...trying out Burning Oil on the advice of Cassial (whom was a major contributor over in the Junk Midrange thread) for now in the place of Selesnya Charm. I don't really have an opinion yet of it since I never really draw it. The one time I did though was against a Piked-Spirit token which was a great time to have one. Other than that though I can't really comment on its effectiveness now over Charm. I still am a huge advocate of Charm and I run 3 out of the board for a number of things, Geist being one of the main reasons. What have others thought about Burning Oil?
Also, the singleton Mana Bloom is just there to be the 5th (bad version of) Farseek which I feel is imperative to this deck to hit 4 mana on turn 3. It's also another way to get B post-board.
I hate saying this cause I love the card but I'm so underwhelmed with Armada Wurm. I just feel that it's too slow. Yeah, it's two big creatures and plays great with Resto Angel but I really just would rather play Thragtusk turn 4 and then Thundermaw Hellkite turn 5. And then there are times when we just stall out on 5 lands. I'm considering dropping the Wurms and adding one more Hellkite and either one more Angel of Serenity or another Borderland Ranger.
Bonfire has been an all-star. 3 seems like the perfect number.
Overall with this list, I am happy with the changes I outlined above and then giving Burning Oil another week of testing before deciding whether I like it enough over Selesnya Charm to keep it. The other change I'd make is add 2x Zealous Conscripts to the SB...can't believe I left them out.
And then this brings me to brew #2, Dark Naya...
Then yesterday I was thinking of a change to my list and wondering how easy it would be to implement black into the maindeck. I was wondering this for two reasons...one being that I could remove the Swamp out of the board for another slot and have a smoother transition, and two being Falkenrath Aristocrat. I got to thinking how there were more humans in this deck than I originally realized and I also began thinking of how many tokens this deck can spit out via Huntmaster/Resto, Thragtusk and Garruk, PhD. Taking into account the great synergy that Aristocrat/Conscripts has and that I already really wanted to SB them anyway, I started with three Aristocrats as my only black spell and dropped AoS to 1x. I added a Blood Crypt and an Overgrown Tomb with Farseek and Mana Bloom to get me my four colors. The list looks like this:
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Borderland Ranger
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Restoration Angel
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Thragtusk
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Angel of Serenity
Enchantments
1 Mana Bloom
Planeswalkers
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Spells
4 Farseek
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Burning Oil
4 Temple Garden
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Forest
1 Plains
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Zealous Conscripts
1 Sundering Growth
3 Centaur Healer
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Slaughter Games
3 Selesnya Charm
1 Ray of Revelation
I only was able to get in one night's worth of testing online but this list performed better than the standard Naya list above it. The 4 drop slot is a little clogged and I still need to figure that out, but now this deck is applying some serious pressure and some pretty consistent pressure. I haven't missed Armada Wurm at all...I haven't missed the one-less AoS yet (in fact, I could drop her all together which sounds a little mental but more on that later) and I haven't had many mana issues. There was one game where I played a Ranger and had to decide if Huntmaster was more important or Aristocrat was more important...I chose Huntmaster. But regardless, there needs to be a lot more testing done before I take the 4-color plunge.
And yes, I was able to pull off the Zealous Conscripts/Aristocrat combo a few times which feels oh so good being able to do that
So the question remains though and I keep asking myself this: is Falkenrath Aristocrat good enough to add a fourth color? The major points to consider when asking yourself that is she is the only card requiring black mana in the maindeck...and also that I then would have sideboard choices like Slaughter Games and Rakdos's Return to bring in against combo/midrange/mirror. I'd love to get everyone's take on this.
I hope to do more testing tonight and tomorrow before sleeving it up for a tournament.
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BAsically as far as midrange/ramp decks go, we're at a disadvantage to almost every other color combination. Bant ramp/midrange is just plain better and Naya midrange opens up a lot more options and removal by adding red. Even the Grixis grindy midrange decks are basically designed to beat us. 4 color reanimator seems to still be a thing and we're already at a great disadvantage due to our lack of good removal there.
Sucks because I really like this deck and I've always loved the "junk" color combination. But at least for me, I have to be honest with myself when I realize that GWB just doesn't provide the best cards possible for a midrange ramp deck...it's only my opinion but it's also an opinion I've come to after lots and lots of testing and tweaking.
Sooooo...good luck to the diehard "Junkies" that still haven't given up. I hope you can find a combination that makes this deck work and I come crawling back after you've broken the meta
If anyone wants my list, let me know...it's late and I don't feel like writing it all out now.
But one card no one here has considered yet: Prey Upon. It's out there, I know but late game once you have a Vault active, even a mana dork becomes "G: Destroy this creature and another target creature." And most times, you should have a bigger creature than your opponent anyway.
Just a thought.
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1. Your creature count is very low to be considered an aggro deck. Compared to your spell count, this feels like more of a midrange deck. However, the creatures you have listed here are at odds with that type of deck (for example besides Artistocrat, you have no big, bomby guy such as Thundermaw Hellkite). There will be some major changes you will need to consider to get the results you want.
2. Going with that, Blood Artist is out of place here. Not enough creatures to get any value out of him. The reason zombies is able to play him is they have lots of recurring creatures such as Gravecrawler and Geralf's Messenger.
3. Drop Disentomb for more creatures. You're an aggro deck, thus you're proactive, not reactive/defensive.
4. Devil's Play maybe as a 1-of maindeck and maybe 1 or 2 in the sideboard. You are playing 22 lands...you won't be casting this for much more than 3-4 damage ever. Still worth a slot or two though. This brings me to #5...
5. Searing Spear and Brimstone Volley are two of the best creature/player burn spells you have access to right now in addition to Pillar of Flame. Thunderbolt is a great sideboard card but due to it's limitations, it is relegated to the SB. The reach you can get with Volley can sometimes put games away.
I'm making these suggestions based on the assumption you are intending this to be a competitive deck since you posted this in the Competitive forum. If you haven't checked it out yet, perhaps you'd be better served to jump in the discussion and read this thread here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/forumdisplay.php?f=682 (check out the Primers at the top) as there's lots of great reports and suggestions from people who play this deck day in and day out. Good luck on your build and at Gen-Con!
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I second this. I've been wondering this for some time now.
Agreed. However if that blue mythic that was spoiled turns out to be real (the one that draws your entire deck), that might be the best thing to happen to Omniscience in Standard. Play Omniscience, draw deck and just burn away.
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Well I wish you the best of luck and truly do hope you can make this work because I'm a huge Griselbrand fan and also have been curious about Omniscience in Standard since it came out...not to mention I really want to use the playset of Chromatic Lantern I have laying around, hehe.
Please keep us updated on your testing.
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As someone who's been playing Junk Ramp for the past few months, I can tell you that rarely will you curve out like that. 9 times out of 10 you will be holding a Ranger's Path in hand wishing it was lifegain or removal. I think it's really dangerous to depend on a 7 drop clearing the board for you on turn 4. And even if you do that, like others have commented, you still are probably sitting on 8-10 life and they're most likely sitting on removal since you haven't played any creatures yet anyway. I really think you will need something like Supreme Verdict here to have a fighting chance. Terminus is too mana-intensive and doesn't interact well if you're chaining Angels (which I assume is how you will do the infinite Thragtusk thing).
Although it may be a tough pill to swallow, I agree 100% with this and think you really need to accept this as constructive criticism. Aggro decks are so good now simply because 75% of their hands are "the nuts."
You will hardly ever have 3 Angels at once...you will only have 2 Angels half the time...and you will also hardly ever have 2 Angels and 1 Increasing Ambition in hand...and you will be dead if you have to wait an entire turn to hardcast its flashback. I really hate to be a downer but I think is a pie-in-the-sky scenario. I'm not saying you're endorsing it, you may have just posted this to illustrate that the combo can be achieved. If you had some kind of free sac-outlet, you could pull this off with two Angels though which would probably increase its consistency 10-fold.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and I guess that's what the Emancipation Angel is for too. Having her means you only need 2 Angel of Serenity for the combo. Still, it's just as hard to pull this off I think.
It seems to me the best way to use Omniscience in Standard is to stall with mass removal, flexible permanent spot removal, gain some life, eventually get out Griselbrand, draw 7, use those spells to gain life and burn so you can draw 7 more and so on.
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Mind posting your list here? Thanks
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