There is of course also the the thing that all-in Twin just loses horribly against BG/x and Abrupt Decay specifically.
Twin as a deck was simply forced to adapt and evolve or become irrelevant and with more and more anti-Twin cards being printed there is simply no going back. The deck is a special case in that regard.
I'd like to expand on this point. I can't speak for many of the decks in the format, but I have been playing twin for awhile now. To be quite honest, while twin's combo is a very compact package, I wouldn't call it inherently resilient or fast by combo standards. It's easy to pick apart, which is why the dedicated lists featuring kiki-jiki have declined in popularity. Instead, people have fallen back on the strength of bolt/snapcaster/remand to keep afloat, making the tempo lists dominant among twin players.
I think the same could be said for many other decks, using other cards to formulate a plan B rather than going all-in on a plan that isn't watertight. Decks that have the ability to power into turn 2 or 3 wins (bloom, grislebrand, etc) tend to need their whole deck to do it, but the slower kills tend to have the slots to utilize different strategies as well. "Combo" seems to come in two flavors: all in combo decks and package combos that can be utilized in several decks.
And a quick aside: consider that your main argument complains about decks with varying game plans, but you also have a problem with them banning sword of the meek, a card that was almost exclusively used in that kind of strategy (thopter-depths, countertop-thopter). These kinds of decks come up more than you may think.
Or, you could hold onto Avatar of the Resolute and make Stompy. not top Tier, but fun to play, reasonably powerful, and about as cheap as you can make a deck and still have a prayer. I cut the Thrun and Chokes for Garruk's Companion and more Dismembers, it cut the price almost in half and it has paid off well for me. the primer is in Developing Competetive if you care to check it out. good luck my friend,and have fun!
This seems like the best advice to me if you'd like to start playing as soon as possible. Mono-green stompy isn't a tier one deck by any stretch of the imagination, but should at least be able to put up a fight vs many of the format's common decks.
I would like to mirror aazadan's post as well though, it may be worth saving up for something bigger. While Stompy is very cheap, the cards really only see play in stompy. (Unless the deck has adopted collected company already, then elves might have a bit of overlap) They'll also be harder to trade if you decide to start on a different deck, as stompy players are pretty rare.
The unfortunate reality is that modern has become a more expensive format as of late, which can really hurt new players like you. None the less everyone's gotta start somewhere. Good luck!
I would wager that the best shot assault formation has in modern is in a deck running doran, the siege tower. The BGx shell gives you access to several ways to disrupt combo (discard, abupt decay, etc), and there are certainly a few different creature bases to try. I've proxied up a decent treefolk/shaman list that can actually produce a turn 4 kill.
One card nobody has mentioned is tower defense, which is insanely powerful in these decks.
I personally don't run any tricolor cards in my cube outside of coalition victory and who//what//when//where//why, so I'm not very much help there. I have 23 mana-fixing land in my 360 card cube, and I still think mono-rares tax mana bases too much to play three colors much of the time (green gets a bit of help with stuff like utopia tree). Side note, there's literally no way anyone is gonna play rainbow vale, it's just too terrible. Paliano, the high city?
You're right in saying that engine cards are only as powerful as the cards they ultimately play with, which is why birthing pod is fine. I've got cards like Rhystic Tutor and tezzeret the seeker in my cube because they help other cards combo together.
That's actually pretty rad. I've known about anti-cubes and such, but I wasn't sure if there had been too many others with a similar concept for their cubes.
Thanks for pointing out the Conspiracy stuff, I looked through them before but kinda just ignored them because they dont feel janky, but you're right. Lot of them seem like fun so I might put an optional conspiracy package that I can add or remove depending on the players.
And yeah I see what you're saying about specter effects, I'll keep an eye on it for now, and I'll probably drop it with my next update (gold cards always throw me off when I'm trying to keep power levels in check).
I made mine as a way to utilize all the bulk rares my friends and I had, so I imagine there's got to be a few people people out there who had the same idea. It's evolved into something unique since then, the archtypes that have cropped up are something special haha. (ion storm/inexorable tide, 5 color coalition victory/door to nothingness, myr welder/necrotic ooze dredge, opalescence enchantments, etc)
I think one thing that really helped out my cube is to not really worry about how janky a card feels, but to be more concerned about fun as long as it doesnt break anything. I've got a birthing pod in my cube, traditionally an extremely powerful card. I don't have to worry about power level here due to the inherent weakness of creatures, and it makes for weird, hilarious pod chains.
It also looks like you figured out the same thing I did for this cube: a soft ban on angels, demons, and dragons. I've got a few notable exceptions (like Hellcarver Demon), but they just tend to end the game without resistance too much.
Funny thing about Spike Rogue saying this is one of a kind, I actually have a cube shockingly similar to this. Never thought I'd see another cube running aeolipile and conch horn as "value" artifacts, but here we are.
If i could make one suggestion from my cube, conspiracy has a few great rare artifact creatures to add. If you're okay with mechanics that take place during the draft, they're a bunch of fun to play with.
For cards to remove, Sedraxis Specter comes to mind. I've found with decent removal being hard to come by, specter effects are incredibly powerful, and not in a fun way. I started with 3 or so black specters in my cube and have eventually removed them all.
Black certainly looks to have the best outfit of humans to use, it would give the deck quite a bit of staying power. Lightning bolt is the best reason to keep red imo, otherwise I think its all pretty replaceable. Bloodsoaked champion, dark confidant, and xathrid necromancer all seem very good here over your existing red creatures. Thoughsieze or inquisition could be good too, although I'm not sure how well they'd fit into such a creature heavy deck (especially considering thalia). Orzhov charm and zealous persecution are two options you didn't have listed for removal, either are potentially viable as well.
If you're looking for a way to suit up typhoid rats, viridian longbow seems far more threatening than pinions.
Using ratchet bomb as a way to blow up your own rats seems like a waste of resources, I'd shy away from that. Besides, tribal rats already have a decent sac outlet, Nezumi Bone-Reader.
Not sure if I like blood artist here, it relies a lot on things going correctly for you. Chittering Rats seems like a decent replacement, slows your opponent down while keeping the rat creature type.
Running night's whisper instead of sign in blood may let you play another mutavault or two over swamps, which would help out quite a bit.
As far as sideboards go, mono-black has very limited options as far as artifact/enchant removal is concerned. I would board targeted discard like duress or thoughtsieze if certain ones are giving you fits, but as far as actually killing them, you'd be limited to cards like ratchet bomb or oblivion stone (which would likely be bad)
Might as well post my idea for a post-ban decklist while people are on the topic. I'm looking to try a U/R/w version of the deck, definitely more focused on comboing rather than a tempo game. Heliod's Pilgrim is the main reason I'm moving into white, primarily as splinter twins 5 and 6. The card gives you a small toolbox to work with as well, although I imagine it's searching for twin if at all possible. White also provides another 1/4 twin target, although village bell-ringer is substantially worse than exarch. I'm using spreading seas because I believe the card is well positioned against G/R tron and the rock decks playing a third color.
The card's two modes serve very, very different purposes
I should have my head examined for even humoring this troll carnival, but here goes:
On the board: I have 2 2/2 random bears and a Geralf's messenger with a counter on it so it's a 4/3. Opponent has no permanents. Opponent is at 8 life. It is their turn. They play Pyroclasm. I respond with Dash Hopes.
If they take the counter spell, I can swing for lethal -1 next turn. Given that I might draw a pump or other direct burn, I win next turn or almost definitely the turn after that.
If they take the five life, I'm out 2 2/2s, but still have a 4/3 and they'll be down to 3 life. I win next turn.
Had I not sided in Dash Hopes - WHAT could I have POSSIBLY played in its place? You tell me. Without a life tax against board wipes, I'm stuck with one 4/3 who has to survive two full turns without getting bolted by a red deck. With countering, I have 3 creatures instead of one, and the opponent is top-decking at this stage.
If you don't understand now, don't bother replying any further.
I don't really see why you assumed I was trolling or something, I thought my response was respectful enough. Hell man, I started it by complimenting you, no need to get so defensive...
To answer your question, yes, in that scenario dash hopes is a good play. However, you're presenting a situation where your opponent is dead on board with no permanents, and lots of cards look good there. For example, Fate Transfer kills too, and you're not about to sleeve those up. A better card choice here would to have your generic 2/2 be bloodghast (which would be pretty reasonable in black aggro), in that case a land drop would be all you need.
My point is that its never going to be lava axe when you need it to be lava axe, and its never going to be counterspell when you need it to be counterspell. The situation you presented gives you a win when either side resolves, but I'd advise against relying on that kind of scenario to evaluate cards. If you think it's going to come up enough, go for it, but I'm skeptical.
Well, this thread is kind of an invitation to ride your favorite hobby horse. I know other people don't like Dash Hopes; I have won games at Modern FNM by strategically using that card and will continue to do so.
Yes, there's plenty of reasons to keep 2 mana open in black: Instant-speed spot removal. The thing that black has a problem dealing with is non-creature threats, such as enchantments, artifacts, and non-permanents. Dash Hopes gives me a snowball's chance, better than no chance at all.
And people who think black shouldn't play a burn strategy are forgetting about Bump in the Night, Geralf's Messenger, Geth's Verdict, Consume Spirit, Profane Command, Sign in Blood, Shrieking Affliction, and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Black has plenty of direct damage to the dome. In fact, black burn spells have an advantage over red burn, in that they frequently allow you to add the same life points to your own total while reducing your opponent's. This helps you in the race, and also helps you buy back time you lost from playing Thoughtseize and Sign in Blood, and whatever else you paid life for playing.
Judging from the amount of time I spend explaining black, I think people just misunderstand this color. If I'm so out of my mind for playing black, I'd sure like to know why the cards in my deck are the most expensive cards in Modern after Tarmogoyf. Nobody disagrees that Thoughtseize, Liliana, and Dark Confidant are some of the most powerful and popular cards in Modern. Mono-black in Modern is good enough for Tom Ross. But it's always "What? You run black? What a scrub!"
Good on you for defending your card choices, but I'm going to have to disagree as well. The punisher mechanic cards in magic are almost always a trap, and I really don't see dash hopes any differently. The card's two modes serve very, very different purposes, and I have trouble seeing a decklist that would benefit from both equally. It's not as though mono black decks can't be successful (to be honest, I'm not really sure where you're getting that opinion), but counterspell and lava axe are playing polar opposite ends of the spectrum.
While we're at it, hornet sting will never see play as long as gut shot is legal. Just saying.
I think you're missing my point. It's not that it "dies to doom blade," it's just completely unnecessary. Lightning bolt alone kills, why dilute the deck with another win-con? The bounce from grixis charm covers just about everything short of infinite life from pod, and I'd much rather have charm in my main. If you're so worried about pod going off before you do, just side a dream twist for game 2.
What would it accomplish that ~30 lightning bolts wouldn't? I assume you're on banefire because the damage can't be prevented, being uncounterable doesn't do anything that the bolts wouldn't. (If you're worried about counterflux or something, just put lethal on the stack and then respond with like 15 more when he counters)
It's not like banefire won't kill, I just don't see a point in devoting a slot to it. *shrug*
If you go the Izzet Guildmage + Manamorphose route I would suggest that your win condition be Laboratory Maniac. Also, since we're in UR we have a lot of permission and card selection.
Again, no sense devoting a slot to him, especially in this case where something like abrupt decay could lose you the game. If youre worried about something like layline of sanctity or worship, I deck a grixis charm as bounce that doubles as decent removal.
Quick nitpick, this doesn't actually produce infinite mana, you'd deck yourself if you tried that. What the combo does do is draw your whole deck, and add mana equal to the cards drawn. If you play lightning bolt (or an equivalent) next, you can funnel all that mana through izzet guildmage and deal lethal damage many times over.
I've run this at locals before, the list isn't very tight but it was fun as hell to play. It's probably the fastest kill you can get reasonably with training grounds (turn 3 with the right cards), plays a decent tempo game too. Let me know if you have any questions.
As a side note for your current list: sorry to be so blunt, but I simply don't think it would work. You need creatures that are decent without training grounds up, and if not they're not, they need to be game-winning with it. The guildmages are okay enough, but remember, you're playing in a lightning bolt format. Also, keep in mind that you're not going to have enough mana without training grounds to operate cards like dimir guidemage and test subject together, let alone by themselves.
I'd like to expand on this point. I can't speak for many of the decks in the format, but I have been playing twin for awhile now. To be quite honest, while twin's combo is a very compact package, I wouldn't call it inherently resilient or fast by combo standards. It's easy to pick apart, which is why the dedicated lists featuring kiki-jiki have declined in popularity. Instead, people have fallen back on the strength of bolt/snapcaster/remand to keep afloat, making the tempo lists dominant among twin players.
I think the same could be said for many other decks, using other cards to formulate a plan B rather than going all-in on a plan that isn't watertight. Decks that have the ability to power into turn 2 or 3 wins (bloom, grislebrand, etc) tend to need their whole deck to do it, but the slower kills tend to have the slots to utilize different strategies as well. "Combo" seems to come in two flavors: all in combo decks and package combos that can be utilized in several decks.
And a quick aside: consider that your main argument complains about decks with varying game plans, but you also have a problem with them banning sword of the meek, a card that was almost exclusively used in that kind of strategy (thopter-depths, countertop-thopter). These kinds of decks come up more than you may think.
This seems like the best advice to me if you'd like to start playing as soon as possible. Mono-green stompy isn't a tier one deck by any stretch of the imagination, but should at least be able to put up a fight vs many of the format's common decks.
I would like to mirror aazadan's post as well though, it may be worth saving up for something bigger. While Stompy is very cheap, the cards really only see play in stompy. (Unless the deck has adopted collected company already, then elves might have a bit of overlap) They'll also be harder to trade if you decide to start on a different deck, as stompy players are pretty rare.
The unfortunate reality is that modern has become a more expensive format as of late, which can really hurt new players like you. None the less everyone's gotta start somewhere. Good luck!
One card nobody has mentioned is tower defense, which is insanely powerful in these decks.
You're right in saying that engine cards are only as powerful as the cards they ultimately play with, which is why birthing pod is fine. I've got cards like Rhystic Tutor and tezzeret the seeker in my cube because they help other cards combo together.
To take a few shots in the dark:
You know what people don't expect? The late game hibernation's end, which happens to find a very early panglacial wurm
I made mine as a way to utilize all the bulk rares my friends and I had, so I imagine there's got to be a few people people out there who had the same idea. It's evolved into something unique since then, the archtypes that have cropped up are something special haha. (ion storm/inexorable tide, 5 color coalition victory/door to nothingness, myr welder/necrotic ooze dredge, opalescence enchantments, etc)
I think one thing that really helped out my cube is to not really worry about how janky a card feels, but to be more concerned about fun as long as it doesnt break anything. I've got a birthing pod in my cube, traditionally an extremely powerful card. I don't have to worry about power level here due to the inherent weakness of creatures, and it makes for weird, hilarious pod chains.
It also looks like you figured out the same thing I did for this cube: a soft ban on angels, demons, and dragons. I've got a few notable exceptions (like Hellcarver Demon), but they just tend to end the game without resistance too much.
If i could make one suggestion from my cube, conspiracy has a few great rare artifact creatures to add. If you're okay with mechanics that take place during the draft, they're a bunch of fun to play with.
For cards to remove, Sedraxis Specter comes to mind. I've found with decent removal being hard to come by, specter effects are incredibly powerful, and not in a fun way. I started with 3 or so black specters in my cube and have eventually removed them all.
Using ratchet bomb as a way to blow up your own rats seems like a waste of resources, I'd shy away from that. Besides, tribal rats already have a decent sac outlet, Nezumi Bone-Reader.
Not sure if I like blood artist here, it relies a lot on things going correctly for you. Chittering Rats seems like a decent replacement, slows your opponent down while keeping the rat creature type.
Running night's whisper instead of sign in blood may let you play another mutavault or two over swamps, which would help out quite a bit.
As far as sideboards go, mono-black has very limited options as far as artifact/enchant removal is concerned. I would board targeted discard like duress or thoughtsieze if certain ones are giving you fits, but as far as actually killing them, you'd be limited to cards like ratchet bomb or oblivion stone (which would likely be bad)
Let me know what you think
4 lightning bolt
4 serum visions
2 path to exile
2 spell snare
4 remand
2 electrolyze
4 splinter twin
1 chained to the rocks
3 spreading seas
12
4 snapcaster mage
4 deciever exarch
2 village bell-ringer
2 heliod's pilgrim
4 scalding tarn
3 flooded strand
1 arid mesa
4 steam vents
2 hallowed fountain
1 sacred foundry
3 island
1 mountain
1 plains
2 sulfur falls
3 wear//tear
2 threads of disloyalty
2 spellskite
2 keranos, god of storms
2 lightning helix
2 combust
1 spreading seas
1 faith's fetters
I don't really see why you assumed I was trolling or something, I thought my response was respectful enough. Hell man, I started it by complimenting you, no need to get so defensive...
To answer your question, yes, in that scenario dash hopes is a good play. However, you're presenting a situation where your opponent is dead on board with no permanents, and lots of cards look good there. For example, Fate Transfer kills too, and you're not about to sleeve those up. A better card choice here would to have your generic 2/2 be bloodghast (which would be pretty reasonable in black aggro), in that case a land drop would be all you need.
My point is that its never going to be lava axe when you need it to be lava axe, and its never going to be counterspell when you need it to be counterspell. The situation you presented gives you a win when either side resolves, but I'd advise against relying on that kind of scenario to evaluate cards. If you think it's going to come up enough, go for it, but I'm skeptical.
Good on you for defending your card choices, but I'm going to have to disagree as well. The punisher mechanic cards in magic are almost always a trap, and I really don't see dash hopes any differently. The card's two modes serve very, very different purposes, and I have trouble seeing a decklist that would benefit from both equally. It's not as though mono black decks can't be successful (to be honest, I'm not really sure where you're getting that opinion), but counterspell and lava axe are playing polar opposite ends of the spectrum.
While we're at it, hornet sting will never see play as long as gut shot is legal. Just saying.
What would it accomplish that ~30 lightning bolts wouldn't? I assume you're on banefire because the damage can't be prevented, being uncounterable doesn't do anything that the bolts wouldn't. (If you're worried about counterflux or something, just put lethal on the stack and then respond with like 15 more when he counters)
It's not like banefire won't kill, I just don't see a point in devoting a slot to it. *shrug*
Again, no sense devoting a slot to him, especially in this case where something like abrupt decay could lose you the game. If youre worried about something like layline of sanctity or worship, I deck a grixis charm as bounce that doubles as decent removal.
Quick nitpick, this doesn't actually produce infinite mana, you'd deck yourself if you tried that. What the combo does do is draw your whole deck, and add mana equal to the cards drawn. If you play lightning bolt (or an equivalent) next, you can funnel all that mana through izzet guildmage and deal lethal damage many times over.
4x izzet guildmage
4x snapcaster mage
4x dark confidant
2x pack rat
4
4x training grounds
22
4x manamorphose
4x lightning bolt
4x remand
4x inquisition of kozilek
4x serum visions
1x grixis charm
1x izzet charm
4x scalding tarn
2x steam vents
1x watery grave
1x blood crypt
4x darkslick shores
2x blackcleave cliffs
3x creeping tar pit
1x island
1x swamp
1x mountain
I've run this at locals before, the list isn't very tight but it was fun as hell to play. It's probably the fastest kill you can get reasonably with training grounds (turn 3 with the right cards), plays a decent tempo game too. Let me know if you have any questions.
As a side note for your current list: sorry to be so blunt, but I simply don't think it would work. You need creatures that are decent without training grounds up, and if not they're not, they need to be game-winning with it. The guildmages are okay enough, but remember, you're playing in a lightning bolt format. Also, keep in mind that you're not going to have enough mana without training grounds to operate cards like dimir guidemage and test subject together, let alone by themselves.