with Karador you could build a dredge-ish deck. Spend the first couple of turns ramping and dredging, then play out of your graveyard the rest of the game. Dread Return Eternal Witness into play, get 'Geddon. Force through 'Geddon and then start dredging Life from the Loam to get back into it?
The problem that you're going to face is that Karador is going to tend to devolve into basically the same kind of thing as all the teneb decks, it'll just be BGW goodstuff with lots of recursion, which isn't the most interesting deck to play or play against since it's been done so many times.
Doran is more interesting to me personally, but I think Karador is probably better.
It's questionable. It's probably still one of the first manlands I'm going to play, but it might be behind Tar Pit and Monastery at that point. The interactions with Emeria are still really powerful, but Survival is definitely the best interaction with the card.
Any reason you're opposed to Survival/Natural Order?
It can be tutored via fetches so it's really easy to find.
It pitches to survival of the fittest, which is a powerful tutor in my build, but I know not everyone runs it.
It sacs to Natural Order, or is an instant speed blocker when necessary.
More importantly, Emeria + Dryad Arbor is really, really powerful. It makes Knight of the Reliquary broken in half, it's a Glacial Chasm lock without an exploration, makes Zuran Orb better. Since it's a creature without having an activation cost, it interacts well with Nim Deathmantle, which is also relevant for Chasm and Knight shenanigans.
It just offers a ton of utility, and it's one of the things that I tutor up most frequently. I've honestly never tutored for any other manland in the deck besides Arbor.
Inkmoth is...interesting, but probably one of your worst options in terms of manlands. It's prety sweet if you run Blinkmoth Nexus and then Vesuva the nexus, but other than that, it's just a 1/1 chump blocker. It's a 10 turn clock. That's not very fast.
My favorite manlands for his deck are:
1. Dryad Arbor - this is NEVER getting cut. It's absurdly good ever time I play it. The rest are way worse as far as I'm concerned.
I still don't know why recurring nightmare was banned. I heard it was banned with kokusho because of its interaction with it, but that seems completely irrelevent when kokusho is also banned.
Recurring Nightmare is banned because it's a powerful engine card that can only be dealt with by using Counterspells. There is no window to deal with it when it's in play if they cast it and then activate it without passing priority after it resolves, making it effectively uncounterable for a significant portion of the decks in the format.
Academy is infinitely better than Cradle, because it makes provides absurdly broken acceleration to a color that isn't supposed to have it. You play some mana artifacts, drop Academy, which lets you play MORE mana artifacts, and you can get way ahead really early on if you don't just drop Mind over Matter and win on the spot. This thing will easily be producing 8+ mana by turn 4 or 5 in a deck built around it, and when the thing is that powerful, there's no reason NOT to build around it.
Blue decks can use this to generate obscene amounts of mana very early in the game, and then use Twiddle effects of whatever variety they want to make MORE mana and draw more cards, untap Academy again and keep repeating until you win. The card is broken in half, and DEFINITELY deserves to be banned.
LED is banned because it's only ever used for two things. It can be used to go infinite with Auriok Salvagers, or it can be used to drop a Voltron general like Skittles and Akroma on turn 2 or 3. As much as I hate this argument, neither of these things are what the format is REALLY about. Because the card will NEVER be used fairly, it's banned.
Regarding some of the miscellaneous points made recently:
People need to keep in mind that this is a land-based control deck, NOT a five color control deck. You don't want to be leaving mana up, and cutting Crucible is just about the worst idea ever. Life from the Loam is more synergistic, but more vulnerable to graveyard hate since you have to overextend to make it work. Crucible is the BEST card in the entire deck, and it's not even close.
I think that a lot of the misunderstandings are because people don't understand the role of the deck in a game. You're NOT the control deck, and you're not the aggro deck. It's an attrition deck that locks people out by using obscene amounts of recursion and uncounterable threats like Emeria and Strip Mine. You've got inevitability over just about every deck in the format. Child is a wrath that you use when necessary, but not terribly frequently.
I've been playing this deck for almost 2 years now, and I've won more often by Ghost Quartering multiple players out of basics than I have by attacking with Child of Alara. I've won more games by Ultimating Venser or Jace multiple times than I have with any combination of non-primeval titan creatures. Basically, don't suggest win conditions, the deck doesn't need them.
Not running permanents because Child kills them is a terrible, terrible argument. Sun Titan is Crucible + Exploration, and recurs all kinds of broken creatures. Eternal Witness, for example. Various important lands, for another. Prismatic Omen is just about the nuts, since you can deal 80+ damage with Valakut tricks, it turns on Prismatic Omen, and lets you do stupid things with Last Stand if you want. Child is a last resort of sorts to keep people honest. You don't want to pop the Child when you've got important permanents on the board unless you absolutely have to.
Regarding some of the cards that have been discussed:
Corpse Dance is actually terrible, Nim Deathmantle is infinitely better for the deck. I've tested both extensively.
Counterspells are okay, but pretty mediocre. I'd rather do something more proactive.
Null Rod turns off other players' wraths, and, more importantly, just about all the graveyard hate people play in this format.
Various win conditions are completely unnecessary. Strip Mine, Glacial Chasm, and Emeria are win conditions unto themselves. Manlands pick up whatever slack is left. Once you lock people out, winning the game is trivial. You can do it with Azusa beats if you want; you won't have any trouble winning.
Forbid is sort of interesting, but in my experience, if you're leaving mana up during other players' turns, you're playing the deck wrong. If you're leaving up mana, you should be winning already.
Basically, the plan is to get up a Glacial Chasm or Strip Mine lock as quickly as possible, typically ignoring the rest of the table as much as possible. You'll frequently wrath with Child once or twice along the way, and then more often in the late game once your engine is ALREADY set up.
If a card isn't a tutor or a piece of the engine, it doesn't merit a spot in the deck. The deck is a giant pile of synergy that slowly locks other players out of the game. BSC and other random fat and countermagic don't contribute to that plan. Neither does wrathing with Child every turn, since you're trying to set up a PERMANENT-BASED lock on an entire table.
You don't need much countermagic to protect your pieces, because you've got so much recursion and redundancy that you can just play the lock piece/bomb/land over and over again until it resolves/sticks.
I'm pretty sure that I was one of the first people to start running Drift in these kinds of lists.
If you've got Diamond Valley, Drift is AWESOME, since it's recurrable lifegain AND a tutor. If you're not running Diamond Valley, you'd be better off with a more generic tutor.
It is worth noting, however, that Drift can be recurred with Genesis and Volrath's Stronghold, which isn't necessarily always the best play, but it's definitely worth mentioning.
And you definitely can't copy an Emeria with Vesuva if they enter the battlefield at the same time. "As Vesuva enters the battlefield" Emeria or Valakut or w/e is not on the battlefield yet, since they enter the battlefield at the same time. I can't refer you to a specific ruling, but this definitely came up when people were playing Scapeshift valakut last extended season.
There's been pretty significant development of this deck here. It's a really fun deck, definitely my favorite of my decks.
I've posted numerous times about it and have done a deckbuilder's spotlight for commandercast discussing the deck. It's been a blast to play, and I'm glad to see someone else working on it.
One thing that I've found is that Tabernacle is totally unnecessary. You've got more than enough mechanisms to control creatures, and you're more likely to have trouble dealing with non-creature permanents and spell-based combos. Have you developed many ways to deal with this issue?
What about Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon/Ruination? Tsabo's Web? Have you run into these before, and if so, how does your build adjust to deal with them?
I feel like the there's enough additional value to get out of the card by warping your deck construction just a little (i.e. running arcane versions of cards you're already playing) that it could be worth it. It's like an Izzet Chronarch that's a little more restrictive, but is its own engine once it gets going. Then again, I could be living in magical christmas land, since I tend to do that when I get excited about decks.
Honestly, I've never played the deck, so I don't have a clue how easy or difficult it is to set these things up. Here's a better question for both of us: if the engine COULD be efficiently set up, would it be worth it? Is it worth trying to find ways to set it up/find ways to make it worth the slots? I think if there's a way to build the deck to efficiently set up that engine, it's definitely better than the other ones. The other ones are more consistent, but more mana intensive and less powerful. So how can the engine be set up more easily?
Because, Mystical Teachings -> Death Denied, Flashback -> Dizzy Spell sets up the Hana Kami tricks. It's REALLY expensive, but I don't know if it's worth it.
I honestly don't like Mournwhelk very much. I played it in a casual blink deck for awhile, but I always wanted it to be Mulldrifter, or something that impacted the board directly.
Sprout Swarm seems pretty terrible, to be honest. It dominates limited formats, but I think that you'd rather just abuse your recursion engines instead.
Does Dizzy Spell make Tortured Existence Better? What about if you add...Dimir Infiltrator, Muddle the Mixture, and Shred Memory, which find each of your 2cc engine cards. Tortured Existence interacts reasonably well with transmute creature tutors like Dimir House Guard, Drift of Phantasms and Dimir Infiltrator.
I mean, there are two questions then. Is 2BGX to return X creatures ENOUGH better than 4B per creature to make it worth running a card that might be worse than other cards that you're running? I think so, honestly.
The other question is: are there more Arcane spells that are worth running? I think so. If you add enough it becomes an engine unto itself, which may be reasonable. I mean, the deck is already mana hungry, why not? Here are some arcane things to consider:
No Hana Kami to go with Death Denied? That's some kind of recursion combo right there. Teachings up your Death Denied? It'd be sweet if you had a way to tutor Kami up, but I guess that's being greedy. Maybe whatever the 1cc transmute card is?
Are there any good common sac outlets? It's unfortunate that Malevolent Awakening is uncommon.
Skulltap and Vivisection seem okay as sac outlets for child that also let you do stuff with izzet chronarch/Mnemonic Wall.
I mean, i understand that it gives some small amount of utility and is a quick clock.
But you're talking about a two card combo that you have to untap with before it does anything. It seems really, really slow, and the upside doesn't seem nearly as high as the other 5 color generals you could be playing.
I mean, you're talking about paying 5 for Overlod, 3 to tutor, 2 for Amoeboid, HOPE that you get to untap, and then pay 3 for your first control magic. That's 13 mana for your first control magic, which seems pretty weak. In addition, he's really vulnerable to control magics and threatens, since he can be stolen forever with his own ability.
Sliver Queen is almost as fast a clock, but gives you multiple infinite combos if you want to go that way, most of which could be easily tutored up considering you're playing a toolbox deck. Having an "I win" combo in your toolbox seems better than an "I might steal a guy" combo.
Horde of Notion is better at grinding out the late game, since you could throw sac outlets into the deck, and do recursion tricks with Mulldrifter, shriekmaw, Crib Swap, Fulminator Mage, and other generic elementals like Wispmare and Ingot Chewer if you choose to.
I'm just saying, the Upside on Sliver Queen seems much higher, and the consistency of Horde of Notions seems a lot higher.
The problem that you're going to face is that Karador is going to tend to devolve into basically the same kind of thing as all the teneb decks, it'll just be BGW goodstuff with lots of recursion, which isn't the most interesting deck to play or play against since it's been done so many times.
Doran is more interesting to me personally, but I think Karador is probably better.
Any reason you're opposed to Survival/Natural Order?
It pitches to survival of the fittest, which is a powerful tutor in my build, but I know not everyone runs it.
It sacs to Natural Order, or is an instant speed blocker when necessary.
More importantly, Emeria + Dryad Arbor is really, really powerful. It makes Knight of the Reliquary broken in half, it's a Glacial Chasm lock without an exploration, makes Zuran Orb better. Since it's a creature without having an activation cost, it interacts well with Nim Deathmantle, which is also relevant for Chasm and Knight shenanigans.
It just offers a ton of utility, and it's one of the things that I tutor up most frequently. I've honestly never tutored for any other manland in the deck besides Arbor.
My favorite manlands for his deck are:
1. Dryad Arbor - this is NEVER getting cut. It's absurdly good ever time I play it. The rest are way worse as far as I'm concerned.
2. Nantuko Monastery
3. Creeping Tar Pit
4. Celestial Colonade
5. Mishra's Factory
6. Lavaclaw Reaches
1) Path to Exile
2) Firespout
3) Mother of Runes
4) Arcane Sanctum
5) Swords to Plowshares
6) Necrogen Scudder
7) Eternal Witness
8) Vampire Nighthawk
9) Spectral Procession
10) Firemaw Kavu
Yes! Single-handedly skewing things towards white!
Recurring Nightmare is banned because it's a powerful engine card that can only be dealt with by using Counterspells. There is no window to deal with it when it's in play if they cast it and then activate it without passing priority after it resolves, making it effectively uncounterable for a significant portion of the decks in the format.
Blue decks can use this to generate obscene amounts of mana very early in the game, and then use Twiddle effects of whatever variety they want to make MORE mana and draw more cards, untap Academy again and keep repeating until you win. The card is broken in half, and DEFINITELY deserves to be banned.
LED is banned because it's only ever used for two things. It can be used to go infinite with Auriok Salvagers, or it can be used to drop a Voltron general like Skittles and Akroma on turn 2 or 3. As much as I hate this argument, neither of these things are what the format is REALLY about. Because the card will NEVER be used fairly, it's banned.
People need to keep in mind that this is a land-based control deck, NOT a five color control deck. You don't want to be leaving mana up, and cutting Crucible is just about the worst idea ever. Life from the Loam is more synergistic, but more vulnerable to graveyard hate since you have to overextend to make it work. Crucible is the BEST card in the entire deck, and it's not even close.
I think that a lot of the misunderstandings are because people don't understand the role of the deck in a game. You're NOT the control deck, and you're not the aggro deck. It's an attrition deck that locks people out by using obscene amounts of recursion and uncounterable threats like Emeria and Strip Mine. You've got inevitability over just about every deck in the format. Child is a wrath that you use when necessary, but not terribly frequently.
I've been playing this deck for almost 2 years now, and I've won more often by Ghost Quartering multiple players out of basics than I have by attacking with Child of Alara. I've won more games by Ultimating Venser or Jace multiple times than I have with any combination of non-primeval titan creatures. Basically, don't suggest win conditions, the deck doesn't need them.
Not running permanents because Child kills them is a terrible, terrible argument. Sun Titan is Crucible + Exploration, and recurs all kinds of broken creatures. Eternal Witness, for example. Various important lands, for another. Prismatic Omen is just about the nuts, since you can deal 80+ damage with Valakut tricks, it turns on Prismatic Omen, and lets you do stupid things with Last Stand if you want. Child is a last resort of sorts to keep people honest. You don't want to pop the Child when you've got important permanents on the board unless you absolutely have to.
Regarding some of the cards that have been discussed:
Corpse Dance is actually terrible, Nim Deathmantle is infinitely better for the deck. I've tested both extensively.
Counterspells are okay, but pretty mediocre. I'd rather do something more proactive.
Null Rod turns off other players' wraths, and, more importantly, just about all the graveyard hate people play in this format.
Various win conditions are completely unnecessary. Strip Mine, Glacial Chasm, and Emeria are win conditions unto themselves. Manlands pick up whatever slack is left. Once you lock people out, winning the game is trivial. You can do it with Azusa beats if you want; you won't have any trouble winning.
Forbid is sort of interesting, but in my experience, if you're leaving mana up during other players' turns, you're playing the deck wrong. If you're leaving up mana, you should be winning already.
Basically, the plan is to get up a Glacial Chasm or Strip Mine lock as quickly as possible, typically ignoring the rest of the table as much as possible. You'll frequently wrath with Child once or twice along the way, and then more often in the late game once your engine is ALREADY set up.
If a card isn't a tutor or a piece of the engine, it doesn't merit a spot in the deck. The deck is a giant pile of synergy that slowly locks other players out of the game. BSC and other random fat and countermagic don't contribute to that plan. Neither does wrathing with Child every turn, since you're trying to set up a PERMANENT-BASED lock on an entire table.
You don't need much countermagic to protect your pieces, because you've got so much recursion and redundancy that you can just play the lock piece/bomb/land over and over again until it resolves/sticks.
If you've got Diamond Valley, Drift is AWESOME, since it's recurrable lifegain AND a tutor. If you're not running Diamond Valley, you'd be better off with a more generic tutor.
It is worth noting, however, that Drift can be recurred with Genesis and Volrath's Stronghold, which isn't necessarily always the best play, but it's definitely worth mentioning.
And you definitely can't copy an Emeria with Vesuva if they enter the battlefield at the same time. "As Vesuva enters the battlefield" Emeria or Valakut or w/e is not on the battlefield yet, since they enter the battlefield at the same time. I can't refer you to a specific ruling, but this definitely came up when people were playing Scapeshift valakut last extended season.
I've posted numerous times about it and have done a deckbuilder's spotlight for commandercast discussing the deck. It's been a blast to play, and I'm glad to see someone else working on it.
One thing that I've found is that Tabernacle is totally unnecessary. You've got more than enough mechanisms to control creatures, and you're more likely to have trouble dealing with non-creature permanents and spell-based combos. Have you developed many ways to deal with this issue?
What about Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon/Ruination? Tsabo's Web? Have you run into these before, and if so, how does your build adjust to deal with them?
wooooooooooow
I swore that card was common. I always drafted a million of them.
Honestly, I've never played the deck, so I don't have a clue how easy or difficult it is to set these things up. Here's a better question for both of us: if the engine COULD be efficiently set up, would it be worth it? Is it worth trying to find ways to set it up/find ways to make it worth the slots? I think if there's a way to build the deck to efficiently set up that engine, it's definitely better than the other ones. The other ones are more consistent, but more mana intensive and less powerful. So how can the engine be set up more easily?
Because, Mystical Teachings -> Death Denied, Flashback -> Dizzy Spell sets up the Hana Kami tricks. It's REALLY expensive, but I don't know if it's worth it.
I honestly don't like Mournwhelk very much. I played it in a casual blink deck for awhile, but I always wanted it to be Mulldrifter, or something that impacted the board directly.
Sprout Swarm seems pretty terrible, to be honest. It dominates limited formats, but I think that you'd rather just abuse your recursion engines instead.
Does Dizzy Spell make Tortured Existence Better? What about if you add...Dimir Infiltrator, Muddle the Mixture, and Shred Memory, which find each of your 2cc engine cards. Tortured Existence interacts reasonably well with transmute creature tutors like Dimir House Guard, Drift of Phantasms and Dimir Infiltrator.
The other question is: are there more Arcane spells that are worth running? I think so. If you add enough it becomes an engine unto itself, which may be reasonable. I mean, the deck is already mana hungry, why not? Here are some arcane things to consider:
Soulless Revival from the oldschool Kami block gifts decks.
Ethereal Haze - random thought Spore Frog/Kami of False Hope for infi-fog?
Joyous Respite - honestly? Not the worst unless you face tons of combo and general damage decks. You've got Child to control the rest of it, this might be an easy way to put a game out of reach.
Kodama's Might Go Go General Damage!
Rending Vines
Terashi's Grasp
Wear Away
Ire of Kaminari - FTW! Good? Absolutely not. Hilarious? YES!
Are there any good common sac outlets? It's unfortunate that Malevolent Awakening is uncommon.
Skulltap and Vivisection seem okay as sac outlets for child that also let you do stuff with izzet chronarch/Mnemonic Wall.
But you're talking about a two card combo that you have to untap with before it does anything. It seems really, really slow, and the upside doesn't seem nearly as high as the other 5 color generals you could be playing.
I mean, you're talking about paying 5 for Overlod, 3 to tutor, 2 for Amoeboid, HOPE that you get to untap, and then pay 3 for your first control magic. That's 13 mana for your first control magic, which seems pretty weak. In addition, he's really vulnerable to control magics and threatens, since he can be stolen forever with his own ability.
Sliver Queen is almost as fast a clock, but gives you multiple infinite combos if you want to go that way, most of which could be easily tutored up considering you're playing a toolbox deck. Having an "I win" combo in your toolbox seems better than an "I might steal a guy" combo.
Horde of Notion is better at grinding out the late game, since you could throw sac outlets into the deck, and do recursion tricks with Mulldrifter, shriekmaw, Crib Swap, Fulminator Mage, and other generic elementals like Wispmare and Ingot Chewer if you choose to.
I'm just saying, the Upside on Sliver Queen seems much higher, and the consistency of Horde of Notions seems a lot higher.