Which is a boring and all around undebatable topic, because fun is subjective, so why talk about that?
I might be reading too far into this question, but I think we are all misinterpreting what exactly OP was trying to discuss. Infinite vs arbitrarily large isn't a very interesting discussion expect for Sporemound (M14) and Life and Limb, but I digress.
Anyway, if you look at the last part of the OP, they mention whats the difference between winning with an infinite combo (which some people hate) and winning by casting something like tooth and nail for Keldon Firebombers and It That Betrays or some other wincon that takes a bunch of mana.
While tooth and nail isn't a universally loved card, "splashy" effects like it are generally waaay more acceptable in "casual" play groups than infinite combos. I think its worth while to wonder why this is the case, so that we can play a game more people can enjoy.
DISCLAIMER: I don't have a problem with combo or LD or anyone's definition of casual or the spirit of EDH. Just trying to make the discussion more interesting.
So along with the new legend rule update, there are some other rules that are getting minor changes. Most notably (for this deck anyway) the way you play additional lands (see here).
In summary, blinking Oracle of Mul Daya and Azusa, Lost but Seeking does not work anymore, but the rules are potentially more easily understood.
EDIT: someone in the Animar thread already got to it, but with the publicity the Legend rule is getting this one could be easily looked over.
I think the first hint should have been that they listed Darksteel Reactor as a wincon in multiple decks. That card is at most an interesting win-con in Vorel.
Geez, I feel bad for people getting their commander knowledge from them.
The recent printing of Progenitor Mimic and the populate mechanic got me thinking about a deck where the goal is to make multiple copies of the same creatures. I'm planning on using Riku of Two Reflections as the commander but I mostly want to focus on Simic colors.
So, I'm looking for creatures that get better the more copies of them you have. The best example I've found so far is Turntimber Ranger, because even with just one copy off Riku its 13 power for 7 mana. Harabaz Druid is probably the only other ally worth playing.
Also, if they are legendary don't worry about it. If I have a critical mass of legendary cards, I'll have a good excuse to run Mirror Gallery and thats just awesome.
Ixidor is a project for sure but he needs it bad considering how important he is to the lore.
Radha really wants some mana useable outside the combat step
Colorshifting the Kirins (or making their abilities X or less) sounds very reasonable
I'd be more than willing to build some decks and test these out. My playgroup is pretty loose with the rules. Just a couple thoughts on some of the generals so far.
Kirins: Colorshifting is probably easier than making it "X or less" because if you keep them all the same, that formating looks really strange on Cloudhoff and Bounteous. And may be too strong on Celestial. Not to mention anything over 3 kills your commander.
I like Sanity's Rhada a lot, I think that she focuses on the combat step is important and makes her distinctive from just being another mana elf. It also embraces the red nature of the card and makes a general where you wanna play cheap pump spells, because that doesn't really exist anywhere else.
Lastly, I think adding colors to Ixidor is probably best. If you start making exceptions to color identity rules for him, then where does it stop? With that logic, you would want a reanimator general to be able to do the same thing and that sounds dangerous.
I've been working on a reanimator style of enchantress deck in these colors and I was wondering how you found Dowsing Shaman? I'm on the fence about it because it's expensive and slow, but one of the few ways to consistently recur enchantments in these colors.
How do you keep people from attacking you? You have few creatures, few token generators and most of your deck is cards that destroy land and other things that really piss people off. Do you actually play this or is this a hypothetical idea?
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It does adequately piss people off certainly.:D
It gets played, but its by no means a well-tuned list. I had a conventional build of Wort for a while but decided to try something different and liked it.
In general, you aren't really worried about people attacking you, first off because you have removal and hopefully can deal with their threats. Secondly, hopefully you can keep them off anything too threatening with the LD. Another steal spell might not be a terrible idea either, in case someone manages to play something threatening. Unfortunately, Red doesn't have any permanent steal cards. I would play spitting image if it were legal.
In the same way that a counter spell deck plays a lot of counters and not too many creatures, I am trying to do that with Land Destruction here.
All of that being said, more removal and maybe a token producer or two wouldn't hurt probably.
Quote from GlissaPox »
Have you tried Decimate? I'm surprised your not running the generic red/green cards such as K-Grip and Hull breach. For red I suggest Gamble, Shattering Pulse, Insurrection (doubles as a win condition). Green you could use Terastodon and Desert Twister. Artifacts you could use cards like Planar Portal, Mind's Eye, and maybe Killswitch.
Decimate - generally I find the enchantment requirement for that card is sorta a pain and stops me from casting it. If someone plays an enchantment deck in your meta, go for it and it will probably work out well.
K-Grip and Hull Breach - I opted for other utility over these two. If I were to add another artifact/enchantment removal it would probably be Nature's Claim.
Gamble - Too variable for me generally. Its been in and out of the list over time and I've never really liked it too well, even copied it doesn't generate any physical card advantage
Shattering Pulse is fine, there are a lot of different options that can go in this deck for removal slots, but they are really meta dependent. If you don't find yourself needing to remove a lot of artifacts, I wouldn't bother with it. My meta is pretty creature focused, which explains the creature removal I have.
Terrastadon is fine, but its not a creature centric build, so he isn't included. I'd rather have cheap removal I can cast when I need it than potentially overkill.
Desert Twister is expensive, aftershock is much better in my opinion for creature kill.
Planar portal is also expensive and my cards usually have enough versatility that I dont need to tutor for anything, especially because I don't play any combos
Kill switch is just a clunky card in my opinion, very slow. I'd rather play shatterstorm.
@Paragon - Since I'm not planning on winning through a quick explosion of tokens, a lot of the smaller token spells didn't seem worth it. I would rather have another piece of removal. I end up recasting wort a lot, so her tokens usually get me there for conspire.
All of that in mind, I haven't updated this list since Innistrad, so there are probably some cuts to be made. If you have any recent suggestions I would appreciate them. Thanks for the comments!
I think Savor the Moment is a card that often gets overlooked at a method of granting haste in mono blue or U/X. Not to mention the fact that it draws a card and triggers upkeep effects.
That's what I was thinking. Stax or Mono-Block "You'll never stick a creature" decks might like him. Not sure if he's good in these decks, but he's definitely worthy of some consideration lol.
Outside of those decks though, he's kinda cute but not very playable.
I don't know, I think I'd rather play Abyssal Persecutor in those situations, it just seems better. No one is ever gonna sac a creature to him, especially if they know you are playing a stax deck.
Am I the only one who is disappointed with the design of the legends so far?
Isperia when printed originally had a very interesting, unique ability that clearly allowed you to build around her. Now she has a bigger body with a worse version of Edric's ability. And Niv Mizzet simply became less broken. They didn't even bother exploring new design space they just fixed the old card.
I don't know, I'm not liking the legends so far. The other cards are great however, So excited for the full charm and guildmage cycle.
EDIT: Okay, Not quite edric's ability but same general idea.
Have you considered trying out a few more haste/ pseudo haste givers? Concordant crossroads is really good and maybe running another card or two with a similar purpose might help.
My first thoughts would be Instill Energy, its cheap and functional, yet pretty awkward with Archivist or things that tap. Or maybe Savor the Moment and other time warp variants. I would probably try savor first just because it gives everything haste essentially.
You could also play around with flash, Alchemist's Refuge, Winding Canyon or even something like Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, but he is really awkward to cast.
Just my two cents.
EDIT: I also just realized that Savor the Moment can help you win faster with Laboratory Maniac
I might be reading too far into this question, but I think we are all misinterpreting what exactly OP was trying to discuss. Infinite vs arbitrarily large isn't a very interesting discussion expect for Sporemound (M14) and Life and Limb, but I digress.
Anyway, if you look at the last part of the OP, they mention whats the difference between winning with an infinite combo (which some people hate) and winning by casting something like tooth and nail for Keldon Firebombers and It That Betrays or some other wincon that takes a bunch of mana.
While tooth and nail isn't a universally loved card, "splashy" effects like it are generally waaay more acceptable in "casual" play groups than infinite combos. I think its worth while to wonder why this is the case, so that we can play a game more people can enjoy.
DISCLAIMER: I don't have a problem with combo or LD or anyone's definition of casual or the spirit of EDH. Just trying to make the discussion more interesting.
Be awesome to each other.
In summary, blinking Oracle of Mul Daya and Azusa, Lost but Seeking does not work anymore, but the rules are potentially more easily understood.
EDIT: someone in the Animar thread already got to it, but with the publicity the Legend rule is getting this one could be easily looked over.
Do a lot of people play these cards? How do you play them? Usually as wrath/ removal protection or as part of "combos" with your own cards?
What types of decks do these cards thrive in?
EDIT: Venser, the Sojourner looks nearly exactly like David Tennant. So theres that too. Unfortunately, the legendary creature venser does not.
I'm definitely gonna try out Vorinclex and see how quickly my group hates me.
And I think I would be remiss not to include Biovisionary in this deck. Its begging for it.
I am a little torn as to how many legends I need to include to make mirror gallery worth it thought. I don't know if 4 or 5 is enough.
Geez, I feel bad for people getting their commander knowledge from them.
So, I'm looking for creatures that get better the more copies of them you have. The best example I've found so far is Turntimber Ranger, because even with just one copy off Riku its 13 power for 7 mana. Harabaz Druid is probably the only other ally worth playing.
Also, if they are legendary don't worry about it. If I have a critical mass of legendary cards, I'll have a good excuse to run Mirror Gallery and thats just awesome.
I'd be more than willing to build some decks and test these out. My playgroup is pretty loose with the rules. Just a couple thoughts on some of the generals so far.
Kirins: Colorshifting is probably easier than making it "X or less" because if you keep them all the same, that formating looks really strange on Cloudhoff and Bounteous. And may be too strong on Celestial. Not to mention anything over 3 kills your commander.
I like Sanity's Rhada a lot, I think that she focuses on the combat step is important and makes her distinctive from just being another mana elf. It also embraces the red nature of the card and makes a general where you wanna play cheap pump spells, because that doesn't really exist anywhere else.
Lastly, I think adding colors to Ixidor is probably best. If you start making exceptions to color identity rules for him, then where does it stop? With that logic, you would want a reanimator general to be able to do the same thing and that sounds dangerous.
Just my 2 cents.
EDIT: you do happen to be in the colors for proliferate there too.
It does adequately piss people off certainly.:D
It gets played, but its by no means a well-tuned list. I had a conventional build of Wort for a while but decided to try something different and liked it.
In general, you aren't really worried about people attacking you, first off because you have removal and hopefully can deal with their threats. Secondly, hopefully you can keep them off anything too threatening with the LD. Another steal spell might not be a terrible idea either, in case someone manages to play something threatening. Unfortunately, Red doesn't have any permanent steal cards. I would play spitting image if it were legal.
In the same way that a counter spell deck plays a lot of counters and not too many creatures, I am trying to do that with Land Destruction here.
All of that being said, more removal and maybe a token producer or two wouldn't hurt probably.
Decimate - generally I find the enchantment requirement for that card is sorta a pain and stops me from casting it. If someone plays an enchantment deck in your meta, go for it and it will probably work out well.
K-Grip and Hull Breach - I opted for other utility over these two. If I were to add another artifact/enchantment removal it would probably be Nature's Claim.
Gamble - Too variable for me generally. Its been in and out of the list over time and I've never really liked it too well, even copied it doesn't generate any physical card advantage
Shattering Pulse is fine, there are a lot of different options that can go in this deck for removal slots, but they are really meta dependent. If you don't find yourself needing to remove a lot of artifacts, I wouldn't bother with it. My meta is pretty creature focused, which explains the creature removal I have.
Terrastadon is fine, but its not a creature centric build, so he isn't included. I'd rather have cheap removal I can cast when I need it than potentially overkill.
Desert Twister is expensive, aftershock is much better in my opinion for creature kill.
Planar portal is also expensive and my cards usually have enough versatility that I dont need to tutor for anything, especially because I don't play any combos
Kill switch is just a clunky card in my opinion, very slow. I'd rather play shatterstorm.
@Paragon - Since I'm not planning on winning through a quick explosion of tokens, a lot of the smaller token spells didn't seem worth it. I would rather have another piece of removal. I end up recasting wort a lot, so her tokens usually get me there for conspire.
All of that in mind, I haven't updated this list since Innistrad, so there are probably some cuts to be made. If you have any recent suggestions I would appreciate them. Thanks for the comments!
I don't know, I think I'd rather play Abyssal Persecutor in those situations, it just seems better. No one is ever gonna sac a creature to him, especially if they know you are playing a stax deck.
Isperia when printed originally had a very interesting, unique ability that clearly allowed you to build around her. Now she has a bigger body with a worse version of Edric's ability. And Niv Mizzet simply became less broken. They didn't even bother exploring new design space they just fixed the old card.
I don't know, I'm not liking the legends so far. The other cards are great however, So excited for the full charm and guildmage cycle.
EDIT: Okay, Not quite edric's ability but same general idea.
My first thoughts would be Instill Energy, its cheap and functional, yet pretty awkward with Archivist or things that tap. Or maybe Savor the Moment and other time warp variants. I would probably try savor first just because it gives everything haste essentially.
You could also play around with flash, Alchemist's Refuge, Winding Canyon or even something like Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, but he is really awkward to cast.
Just my two cents.
EDIT: I also just realized that Savor the Moment can help you win faster with Laboratory Maniac