MTG Salvation

OK guys, here’s the promised post. You’ll see why I couldn’t to that from my phone. And before I begin, this is a summary, so it is obvious that some of the things I say in here have been said already. I recommend reading this post to understand where I'm coming from.

The last closure of the Gutter and its outcome

I’ll begin with what to me marks the beginning of a new (and last?) Gutter era. The Azrael era, if you will. After what at the time was TBCITE, the decision to reopen the Gutter was made by the administrators in office. The following post not only announces the reopening of the Gutter, but also states the compromise between the site’s administration and the community of MTGS members who post in the Gutter:

Quote from Yukora

After extensive discussion regarding the reasons behind closing the gutter and how to prevent such things from becoming an issue in the future, the decision has been made to reopen the gutter. In an effort to avoid conflict in the future and to facilitate channels for communication between staff, gutter members and other users, we are going to be enacting a few changes.

First, as has been discussed in the past, a forum will be created where gutter members and members of the general staff can discuss issues that relate to both. It will be a place that issues that gutter members have with individual staff members or moderator actions that have already passed through the formal appeal process will be discussed in this forum. This does two things, it provides a safe haven for gutter users to air their grievances without fear of repercussions, and it creates a space where the staff can readily address and view said grievances. We are creating this area with the goal of fostering communications and providing a more appropriate place for the types of discussions that have been taking place in helpdesks and Community Issues and have led to previous issues.

Second, along with the added influence this forum would bring, there will also be an added level of accountability for gutter members. While temporary gutter bans will remain in effect for individual infractions, gutter members found to be engaging in behavior such as flaming or trolling on the main forum, especially in relation to moderator actions that will now belong in the newly created subforum, will be subject to extended or permanent gutter bans based on the offense. We want to be clear that the use of the Gutter is a privilege afforded to the gutter members by the guttermods, and by the staff as a whole. We simply ask that that privilege be treated with the respect that it deserves. Rest assured, revoking of that privilege will be taking place on an individual basis. Unless something drastic happens, we do not intend to close the gutter or punish it members, rather, we intend to revoke the privilege of that forum to those that abuse it.

The goal of these changes is to allow the gutter to be reopened and operate as intended while increasing communication and accountability for all involved. Thank you all for your patience as we sorted through this situation.

Since bolding and highlighting are not enough, let me reiterate the following sentence: "Rest assured, revoking of that privilege will be taking place on an individual basis. Unless something drastic happens, we do not intend to close the gutter or punish it members, rather, we intend to revoke the privilege of that forum to those that abuse it". Yukora further expanded the consensus reached by the administrators:

Quote from Yukora

You cans till do that, in the helpdesks or CI forum as has always been done.

We're taking the direction we are in an attempt to curve the main-forum presence of the gutter where tensions between staff and some gutter members have grown due to repeated butting of heads. With this new forum, that tension between the staff and gutter members will hopefully be alleviated as there will be a designated place for such discussion to take place.

Reall, it's an effort to prevent some staff members from feeling like they're getting publicly ganged up on by members of the gutter usergroup, and it provides those same members with a clear-cut area to have their voices heard without fear of staff retaliation. This is an effort to cut down on tension and drama rather than trying to alienate non-gutter users.

As for why we are keeping this subforum to just gutter posters and staff members, throughout the course of the previous thread regarding this issue, it became blatantly apparent that detractors of the gutter will use any opportunity they can find to try and stir up issues about the gutter. Keeping this forum private will allow the gutter users to air their grievances without risk of back-and-forth bouts with their detractors. This is what would often result in moderator actions against gutter members, and would only further cause a rift between staff and gutter users. Again, we arrived at the conclusion that we did in an attempt to facilitate communication and remove sources of drama, which ultimately makes everyone's life easier and makes these forums better for everyone.

We will still be listening to user's complaints about the moderating staff and discussing any moderation or issues that may come up on these boards with any user that may have them. This can be done publicly via helpdesks or privately via messages.

As for the permanent gutterbans, no one has to worry about them as long as you are following the forum rules. If you become a gutter member, we ask that you treat that privilege with respect and responsibility.

For those of you who are wondering why we are reopening the gutter, it has a lot to do with the fact that we are not interested in removing features from these forums that users enjoy unless they are a clear detriment to the site. The gutter itself is not a detriment to the site. Some have, in both past and present, abused that privilege, and those few bad apples have given the forum a bad name in many people's eyes. However, the forum itself is not an issue, it is the behavior of some of its members. We are taking the stance that we are going to handle abuse of this privilege on an individual basis, but we do not want to enact stricter standards without providing a means of rebuttal as we are providing with this new forum.

We apologize for the brouhaha this move caused while we sorted out what to do. Some members of the staff did not feel like our old system as providing the results that we desired, so the gutter was suspended while we sorted out what to do. Now, I can't reopen the gutter myself as I am rather technologically challenged by the admin interface, but it should be up and running as soon as someone who won't accidentally blow up the forum by pushing buttons signs on.

And lastly, Annorax describes here what users can expect from an invisible and opt-in forum:

Quote from Annorax

By making it invisible and making viewing opt-in, anyone who sees it (including an uncensored thread title on the forum index) has no excuse for complaining publicly about being offended by anything in the gutter, including said uncensored thread titles that would appear on the forum index.

How the commitment and consensus reached was thrown overboard

The following group of people gathered to discuss a new closing of the Gutter (I'll note in parentheses what my perception was about their stance towards the Gutter during my time in the Mod Lounge):

rianalnn (Strongly against the Gutter)
Sene (Ambivalent)
viperesque (Against the Gutter, but I didn't notice that entirely until after this situation)

Annorax (As the most experienced of the group, I will say "factual")
Arcadic (More against than not)
ExpiredRascals (Against the Gutter)
Galspanic (Ambivalent)
Moss_Elemental (I cannot say, but I don't recall an anti-Gutter attitude from him)

Only one of them was an administrator back in November (why did he "retire" again?). And the majority of them entered the discussion with a bias against the Gutter. I already mentioned how the decision to keep this at higher ranks hindered the ability of the regular staff to chime in on whether this course of action would impact the userbase negatively, or more accurately, to what degree, as prognosticated by Azrael in his PM to newer mods (including all of those who were Gutter members):

Quote from Azrael »

In sum, I'd encourage each of you to continue speaking your minds freely without undue regard to the rank of the participants in the conversation. If we lose that, we lose the most vital protection the userbase has from hasty decisions.

Would the outcome have been different if regular staff had been involved? Probably yes, probably no. The truth is that the opinions would have been more balanced. Several moderators who were "gutter-neutral" have argued both for and against the Gutter in the discussions I participated in. And in all of those discussions, the result was the same: "it's not fair to treat the Gutter members more harshly just because they are Gutter members".

Also, the Gutter-Staff Pegging Chamber was neglected and the reasons that have been stated for that can be tracked down to the moment when rianalnn cut all communications with the Gutter during the following conversation about the relocation of the Gutter to the bottom of the forum list:


After "/never posts in here again", rianalnn removed himself from the Gutter Member group. My opinion is that it was an overreaction and that he was indeed acting a lot more bitter after his return from "moral-compass seeking", which I attribute to the removal of the Gutter Penalty Box (hope you read the post I linked at the beginning).


The public reasons that were given

Let's address the OP ITT more slowly:

Quote from viperesque

As of July 1, the Gutter subforum will be retired. This was not an easy decision, but we believe it is the right one for the good of the site.


What is the Gutter?

The Gutter is a hidden group of subforums that is essentially unmoderated in the conventional sense. Infractions and the like have never been employed in the Gutter, although for a time an active infraction would preclude a user from participating in the subforum. Notorious for its culture of hazing and attracting members with rocky relationships with the staff, the Gutter historically served as a place where watchdog discussions relating to staff conduct could be had, in addition to its role as an exclusive-membership sandbox.

This bit is misrepresenting. While its contents are not necessarily inaccurate, it is clearly written with bias. I reproach the "attracting members with rocky relationships with the staff" bit, not only because former staff members have been active in the Gutter (Goblinboy, Kijin, {mikeyG}, etc.), the Azrael era brought several members of the Gutter into the staff, like ( N_S ), Madding, ein and Talore, but even because up until this was posted, I had good relationships with most of the staff (and hope I still keep most of them).

Quote from viperesque

Why is the Gutter being retired?

First is the issue of bullying. The Gutter has an entrenched culture of attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members. Although “what happens in the Gutter stays in the Gutter,” any member of Salvation is fair game for a roasting within, whether they are a member of the subforum or not. MTGSalvation as a community aims to support a culture of tolerance, and the hostile culture of the Gutter is in direct opposition to this goal. While this has been an ongoing concern of the staff, certain events of the past months have brought this to the fore.

OK then, let's see what these events are:

Quote from viperesque

First was an incident discussed extensively here in Community Issues and in the Moderator Lounge, namely that we were slow to act when a potentially unstable member was getting verbally harassed. The staff considers this a very serious issue and we vowed to address it. As we worked to prevent a similar event from happening in the future, we became acutely aware of how closely tied cyberbullying has been to various suicides and school shootings. We then realized that the reality is that in most cases the repercussions of that negative culture will not be visible to us. We cannot not overlook the danger that the Gutter poses to people in real life. While there is no way to quantify the impact this has on a user, by allowing it a place to exist, the staff feel responsible for it.

The person who brought up the concern of slowness to act was then Staff Member and Gutter-Moderator Kijin. He did so with great sincerity and emotional investment, and the outcomes of that incident, especially his demotion and the banning of NavyJoe are well documented in other CI threads as well as the Moderator Lounge. Within the Gutter, he was reprimanded for not keeping a cool head, but when you put yourself in his shoes and what his beliefs are regarding the subject of cyber-bullying and school shootings, you can understand his level of outrage. It is only ironic that you were made aware of this cyber-bullying concern in great meassure by a gutterite, and are now using this as a reason to shut down the Gutter. This "danger that the Gutter poses to people in real life" is your perception and it's unacceptable to me that you cannot provide proof of this because of "member-staff confidentiality", when I would have expected that such evidence had been readily available to me while in the ML, and I never got a hint about such outcome of "Gutter actions".

Please take a look at the following "tutorial" in reference to the "entrenched culture of attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members":


After reading that tutorial, tell me again how someone who got "bullied" within the Gutter didn't just ask for it.

Quote from viperesque

Second, while the problems associated with the gutter have risen to the forefront, the benefits of the subforum have diminished. With the formation of the Staff Inbox, the Ban Appeal Subforum, the implementation of a Staff Code of Conduct and a general push for increased professionalism from staff, the Gutter's role as a place for watchdog discussions has been marginalized.

Call it a language thing, but I dislike the word "watchdog". Anyway, the benefits of the Gutter have been acknowledged here, thank you very much, but I disagree with the statement that they have diminished. It is true that the Staff Inbox, the Ban Appeal Subforum, and the Staff CoC (which could use a new revision) are great implementations. However, when someone who is supposedly the main pusher of this professionalism mentioned there conducts himself unprofessionally, I simply cannot agree with that statement. When this announcement comes after months of speaking within the Gutter of this lack of professionalism and a CI thread was made with suggestions to tackle this (while not making any direct accusations), I cannot agree with that statement.

Quote from viperesque

At the same time, Gutter members at all levels have shown that they will not report fellow gutter members for suspension evasion and the like, while attacking whichever senior staff member is chosen to watch over the subforum. This creates a situation contributing to staff burnout and increased rule-breaking rather than the beneficial role that Gutter members would previously claim. The staff is thus left in an uncomfortable position where we cannot properly monitor the forum without drawing extreme levels of hostility.

I would like to ask for some evidence of Gutter members evading evasions and bans. And please don't bring up MIKE "HUNT" FLORES, since it has been proved that only g_c knew about him, and he actually got a harsher punishment than warranted (his banning, which was overturned later). If this is about g-suspensions (also later overturned due to their unfairness) and I think it is, I must say that no one in the Gutter attempted to hide the fact that some users were using gimmicks to bypass their unfair g-suspensions during a difficult time. And it is exactly because those g-suspensions had to be evaded in order to have an urging discussion and because banning the members involved was being discussed, that the Penalty Box was removed (again, refer to the "Story of GR and the Gutter" link). Bringing this up now as a reason to close the Gutter holds no water.

Furthermore, has the senior staff considered that their inability to "properly monitor the forum without drawing extreme levels of hostility" may have its roots in the way you run things, make decisions and/or the way you communicate them? (this very thread, case in point)

Quote from viperesque

What Will Happen to the Gutter?

The Gutter and its subforums will be moved to the Forbidden Zone, hidden from regular users, and closed for posting.

This needs to be updated, please. Thanks in advance.

Quote from viperesque

Again, this is not an action we take lightly.
We will try to answer and address your concerns and help dispel any lingering uncertainties you might have.

I hope this post is answered and addressed thoroughly. Thanks.


About telling people that they are "misinformed"

This happened in what used to be TBCITE as well. People coming without knowledge, jumping to conclusions and posting judgmental opinions based only on their previous experiences, not even related to the matter in question. This time, this was worsened by a very misrepresenting OP, as exposed above. As others have said, all these perhaps good-intended opinions only clutter a thread and introduce noise to the communication that the Gutter members are trying to have with the Staff as to the circumstances in which this decision was made. I would have recommended the approach I took in November: see for yourself before saying what may be considered nonsense by people who actually know what they're talking about.

I personally apologize to any members I may have affronted in the course of this discussion.


About the Benefits of the Gutter

Quote from ExpiredRascals

The following question was posed by an anonymous user to the staff:

Can the Gutter show and prove how over the past 7 years it's presence has enhanced and promoted MTGS site and the MTGS "community" as a whole in a positive light that encourages participation by individuals, families and other entities affiliated with the game whether it be on a casual or professional level and how a continued presence of the Gutter would be of future benefit to the site?

i think it is an interesting question to have answered and I would appreciate some commentary on this from members of the gutter.

I believe that this has been answered by quotes I posted here by no other than Yukora and Viperesque. Like I said once in the Mod Lounge, the Gutter is Sally's QA. The culture of the Gutter is all about post quality. It has helped bring out the real personalities of the DC's, TS's and m0's. It has pointed out the mistakes of the moderators and administrators. It has pointed out the risks of certain threads. All this has been accomplished by the unique combination of a group of like-minded yet diverse individuals, freedom to express ideas and privacy. As I write this, a former administrator of this site has put it similarly:

Quote from urzassedatives

The 'problem' with MTGS has never been the gutter.
The problem is MTGS blaming the gutter for pointing out the obvious problems with posters in forum X. Rather than trying to fix or curb these kinds of posts, the gutter is labeled as 'trolls' or as 'flaming' and therefore ignored.

The forum doesn't get better when people accept that bad posting is 'okay'.

About the "Times New Roman Monstrosity"

As mentioned by someone else, it's a cute post, with a preface and everything. What I get out of the post:

• He acknowledges that he did not follow the rules of the Gutter once inside. He asked for it.
• He says that his Helpdesk was dogpiled. I already covered the QA aspect of the Gutter.
• His Gutter leaking point is hard to comprehend. Language barrier?
• The "coordinated attacks" are a false conclusion. There are none, as pointed out already by other gutterites ITT. Sadly, many staff members believe this. I recall at least a couple of occasions when ExpiredRascals was even willing to infract otherwise non-infractable posts because of this belief.
• About the Gutter being impossible to be "policed" effectively, that is not accurate. It's a community with well established leadership. If the channels of communication with said leadership were respected (and perhaps given their own set of rules) good Gutter-Staff relations are plausible. Kijin was a staff member for most of his time here. ( N_S ) was greatly admired within the Mod Lounge for the way he engaged in discussions (( N_S)4ADMIN, amirite?). And kpaca will tell you the truth to your face even if it hurts. If that is something the administrators cannot take without getting offended or bitter, then who's at fault?
• The rest of his post has been addressed already by this "Verdana Monstrosity"

Final Words

I want to quote something from TBGTE:

Quote from Ximbad

What I've learned so far:

The mods are willing to ignore anyone who attempts to move forward in the direction of a comprimise.

Everything that every gutter member does that is bad is the fault of the gutter.

Everything that every gutter member does that is good has nothing to do with the gutter.

As I have stated before, I have little faith in the reversal of this decision. I encourage you to prove that and Ximbad's post wrong.

And I will end this by saying that the Gutter will endure, because it is not the subforum:

WE are Gutter. We did it for the lafs.