upon further testing, this card is indeed bananas. the number of free wins you get just by having it in your deck is nothing short of remarkable. the angle of disruption it provides is unique enough that the activation cost is extremely negligible.
I'm curious, but what have you been testing the card in? Against which archetypes, and how many were you running?
Here's the thing, I question those assumptions on account of this being the first I've heard of it.
If Mind Control were that bad it surely would have made a bigger splash than it did.
Indeed, Act of Treason is surely beyond broken by using the same metrics given that it's usually printed at common.
Then again I had absolutely no issue with either Pack Rat or Ætherling in limited during this last block, as that's just the nature of the beast.
Well, the thing is that cards can be absurdly powerful in limited and not be constructed powerhouses (as illustrated by Pack Rat). The two formats are vastly different from one another, and different standards for what's considered 'good' are going to vary. Act of Treason is not nearly that powerful because it offers only a temporary boost in terms of an extra attacker and one less blocker for your opponent. Mind Control cards offer a permanent advantage that will sometimes also force your opponent to waste precious resources to stop their own creature.
When it comes down to it, Mind Control and AoT can be looked at like the Unsummon v. Doom Blade comparison. Less mana will create much needed tempo, but you have to make good use of it in a small.window.
Not a particularly good summary by any stretch of imagination.
A. 'Because limited balance' isn't an argument for anything, as it takes actual statistics to argue and doesn't address alternatives like:
A.1. Printing a less limited effect at rare, aka. Control Magic.
A.2. Not including the effect in the set at all.
B. Again not an argument of anything, as there's no baseline. Besides, what's 'proper' in this context?
I don't recall saying that those points were an actual argument; they were meant to be a sarcastic observation which was followed by my actual post. As I said, this is what I gathered after skimming through 100-ish posts of content in a short time - a large portion of which consisted of people getting really annoyed that this card was a rare, with a small smattering of defense.
Did my post argue that it was in because of limited balance? No. I said that, in my opinion, the community backlash would have probably been worse had they just gone back to printing Mind Control (only as a rare). The only real thing I pointed out otherwise was that three years worth of core sets (M10-M12) have showed us just how stupid Mind Control can be in a limited format. Even at rare, it would still probably be the best card in the format by a large margin.
As for the context of 'proper'; I intended to mean that there was a baseline of your average 'steal' effect (which I think Mind Control defines at 5-mana), with lower-cost ones having some kind of drawback, and higher-cost ones getting some sweet upsides. I suppose I could have explained that a little better, but I was at work and somewhat limited on time.
If I actually had the time to read every single post, then yes, I agree that those alternatives would have been included.
After skimming through this thread (of Disloyalty...? okay, bad pun), this can be broken down into a couple key points.
A. People don't seem to realize/care that limited balance is highly relevant when creating sets.
B. A difference in mana costs is going to mean *gasp* a proper scaling of the effect in question.
First of all, Mind Control being a rare in place of Domestication probably would have gone over worse within the community. Instead, we would have threads of players whining "OMG Why is Mind Control a freakin' rare?! I already have 9 ba-jillion uncommon ones! WORST SET EVAR!!" While, yes it is a very powerful card; three core sets worth of limited play have shown that a 5-mana 'steal your guy, no strings attached' was completely bonkers, regardless of rarity. We, unfortunately had to see it at uncommon - where it would be the most obnoxious (same with Overrun, to a lesser extent).
Second, there's a mana-cost difference, and Domestication costing less than the baseline of Mind Control means that certain drawbacks must be placed on the card in order to balance it, as per WotC's current definition on blue's 'stealing' mechanic. While this does mean that Domestication has to be made worse in the sense that it can't just perma-steal anything, it theoretically becomes better in the sense that it has a lower mana investment, which is often the largest factor when determining a card's constructed viability.
As for constructed viability? While it's not going to be a format-defining powerhouse, I feel that it will have a much better chance of seeing Standard play on its second run (remember that its first appearance in Rise of the Eldrazi went from a format defined by BBE, Knight of the Reliquary, and Goblin Guide - along with Bolt, Terminate, Path as premier removal - into the age of Titans and Jace Wars). Why? Well, what are two of the most powerful cards in the format, right now?
...Voice of Resurgence and Boros Reckoner. Why is that? Well, one requires very specific answers to minimize its impact (sorcery speed removal that doesn't send it to the GY), and the other can make combat absolutely miserable for any player...well, that and it can cast a stupidly large Magic Missile on your ass without warning. The way I see it, while not the ultimate answer to both, Domestication looks to be a rather good way of fighting both of these creatures in the current format.
Let me state that I am not saying that this is the best Mind Control effect around. Frankly, it would barely make a top 10 list. What I am saying is that it does have the potential to serve a purpose in Standard, and be a powerful limited card without being as back-breaking (and unfun) as something like Mind Control. Will this be a 4-of card in all Standard decks? Oh, geez, no. If you want to speculate on how much of an impact this card will have, I would say somewhere in sync with Sever the Bloodline: it isn't the best at killing everything, but for the threats it's geared for, I think it can handle them very effectively.
My .02 (and I'm just really tired of seeing these same old threads over and over and over without any sort of intelligable arguments to be had).
Choose one - Return target creature to its owner's hand; or you may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield; or target creature you control gets +1/+1 and gains hexproof until end of turn.
Green ability is a mix of Explore and an homage to Coiling Oracle. Template might be a tad clunky, but I like the idea of it. I got in the mood for designing potential charms, and wanted to make sure that I wasn't stepping on the toes the other RtR charms (i.e. making sure that each color showcased a different sort of effect on each charm).
I think you should design a charm around the "general characteristics" of the guild; I mean:
Izzet (Knowledge, "brute" science, energy manipulation) charm:
1. Spell Pierce - Cost U, effect that manipulates spells/energy (very Izzet)
2. Shock(not really Shock, but...) - Cost R - Lightning (very Izzet)
3. Faithless Looting/Careful Study - Cost U/, impervious search for knowledge (really, really Izzet)
The rest of the charms need to be in-theme with their respective guilds. For example:
Azorius (law enforcement, denial, protection) might include: W: Fog effects / Exile effects / Protection effects U: Tap effects / Boomerang effects W/: Spell taxing effects
But a charm with (for example) lifegain, card draw and flicker would be too "random" for my taste; maybe one of these and two other law-themed effects could be OK...
we should take past guild spells as a model, and searh for instants/sorceries that cost 1 in the appropiate color and are in-theme with the guild; for example, Izzet Charm is a mix of three spells that cost 1 mana in the appropiate colors, all of which have similar effects to Electrolyze/Runeboggle which are Izzet spells (I'm not sure Runeboggle is Izzet and not Azorius, but...)
This is the same template I would think makes the most sense for the charms. There have been some decent designs posted here, but many of the proposed charms just appear to be random abilities tacked onto cards, and more focused on making them more powerful rather than flavourful. With any combination of abilities, your example Azorius Charm feels very flavourful while keeping the card at a reasonable power level.
I've been wondering. Have you guys played against anyone who uses delver but had resto angel as soon as AVR was released?
I swear I played against my friend in the 2nd week of may and he was using Delver with Resto. Same the next few weeks with my LGS.
When I had planned to play Delver at a random FNM (didn't end up going) a few weeks ago, I was pretty dead set on running at least two Angels. I had somewhat of a strange mishmash of two Geists, four Splicers, and overall it felt too clunky to me. I basically recognized that Angel would be good, but overestimated the need for cards like Blade Splicer to power it up.
Saying that people need to stop complaining about cards not being banned is like telling people to stop being stupid - it's just pointless. Anyways, at some point you realize that you cannot convince some people otherwise. I say let them keep making their threads; more entertaining for the people reading it.
For realistic reprints, I do have a few hopes for this set.
1. Either Nekrataal or an 'updated' version: I just feel like black -especially in the more creature-centric iterations of standard - should have an 'assassin' creature in the format most of the time. Much like Oblivion Ring or Rampant Growth, I feel like this is an effect that standard should always have. An example of a 'redone' Nekrataal:
Silent Stalker
2BB (Uncommon)
Creature - Human Assassin
Intimidate
When Silent Stalker enters the battlefield, destroy target nonblack creature.
2/1
If you want a more flavorful 'assassin' the Doom Blade effect could be swapped with an Assassinate effect (destroy a tapped creature).
2. A cycle of sweet ally-colored commons or uncommons: Since multicolor is more than likely to have some place in the core set this year, I imagine that common multicolor spells isn't too outrageous. Cards like Terminate, Qasali Pridemage, Recoil, Hull Breach, Hindering Light are good examples.
3. Fauna Shaman: Green has had access to powerful tutor effects such as Birthing Pod and Green Sun's Zenith over the last year, both of which are going to be leaving us come October. Fauna Shaman's initial run in standard was not what people expected (mostly because of Valakut's ability to quash midrange decks), so I think that some would enjoy seeing her get a second chance. Obviously, it won't be as powerful as it was in a format with Vengevine and Squadron Hawk, but it should still find a home in current green creature strategies.
4. Spell Snare: Yes, 'permission' cards are being downplayed and are in a weird place right now, but I still think that this card would be reasonable for such a small format. It still fits the modern idea of what 'permission' spells should look like at one mana: a hard counter that is very narrow in scope. The other reason is for eternal format purposes, as I have recently noticed that Spell Snare is currently in the $10-$12 range. For an uncommon from a recent set, that's pretty absurd.
Yep, that is definitely exalted on a vanilla black creature. Seems like a fine ability to include in the core set, if that's the case; it might also mean that we could get some saucy reprints like Qasali Pridemage or even Noble Hierarch.
A more realistic card for black would be some sort of variant on Infest, if not Infest itself. Mutilate doesn't really peg me as a card that would make black good in standard, rather it would just trick the small population of diehards to keep playing some subpar mono-black deck (which, in a future multicolour-oriented format, seems less than stellar). I'd really love for Consume the Meek to make a return eventually, but Infest would suffice in standard.
I think my japanese box had about 6 different rares that I pulled duplicates of, and 5 mythics (tibalt, avacyn, sigarda, surge, and griffin). I was somewhat annoyed that I only saw one Wolfir Avenger and only one or two Thunderous Wraths in the entire box. Not the worst box in the world, but it was definitely strange opening it to do sealed pools.
Prohibit or Miscalculation would be suitable cards, but that means committing to kicker or cycling.
I like the idea of a revised Prohibit, but the only thing that I can think of would be a two-mana spell that reads "Counter target spell with converted mana cost 3 or less." Under their new philosophy that might not be something that they would want to print at 1U, but I could see it at least UU.
In general, the whole "Mana Leak is too powerful" debate that's been going on has left me in a weird spot. I don't necessarily agree that it is too powerful of a card to see print again, but I do think that it is about time that it rotates out of Standard. Countermagic will always be a sensitive topic for most, as it can be simplified as Blue's most effective way to interact with opposing threats, but at the same time just rubs too many players the wrong way.
I think that, in it's current state, the balance of countermagic is where they want things to be. Developers have appropriately defined the range and effectiveness of a given piece of permission at varying costs, and I think that right now there doesn't need to be more major shifts in their design. This brings us back to Mana Leak, which has found itself a place on the "Most Wanted" list. Once again, it needs to be stressed that much of the perception of Mana Leak's current power in the format comes from the pair of overly aggressive creatures Blue has received: Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage.
The fact of the matter is, with Snapcaster Mage being a card in Standard, Mana Leak is no longer Mana Leak, but a new spell that is indeed far too powerful for the format:
1U - Instant
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 3. If you cast this spell from your graveyard, put a 2/1 Blue Human Wizard token onto the battlefield.
Flashback - 2UU
When you start viewing the card in this manner, it appears more unfair than in previous contexts. Delver of Secrets doesn't help matters either, as many soft or conditional counters become much more devastating when the player casting them started their second or third turn with a Snapping Drake on the board. Again, in this context, Mana Leak has been warped into a grossly oppressive card.
This sort of context is not anything new; natural synergy in Magic is a constant, and in some instances said synergy has been pushed over the edge. We see it on an almost annual basis in Standard - Stoneforge Mystic + Swords/Batterskull (and Jace, the Mind Sculptor); Bloodbraid Elf in the Jund deck; Cryptic Command with Vivid Land + Reflecting Pool manabases. In a lot of cases, the synergies themselves involve cards that are far too powerful for the format. In other cases, such as the Cryptic Command case, the reasonable card (Cryptic was a strong card, but at a 1UUU cost it was not intended to see much play outside of 1-2 colour decks), got a huge power boost from surrounding cards that effectively removed any sort of drawback it had. Does Mana Leak become more powerful when you can add a pseudo-flashback cost to it? Of course, and that can be said about a multitude of cards, much like if you reduce the cost of a card or add a cantrip to it.
Once again, I stress that I am not advocating that Mana Leak stick around for another year (it needs to rotate out for a while, at least until Innistrad rotates out), I simply wanted to point out that while it is a part of the boogeyman deck of the format it does not deserve all of the blame. As such, I still stand by my statement that I believe that R&D is wrong in saying that the card itself is too powerful to see print again. In this context, Mana Leak is simply a victim of circumstance, and it happens to be the easiest card to blame because of its classification as countermagic.
I'm curious, but what have you been testing the card in? Against which archetypes, and how many were you running?
Well, the thing is that cards can be absurdly powerful in limited and not be constructed powerhouses (as illustrated by Pack Rat). The two formats are vastly different from one another, and different standards for what's considered 'good' are going to vary. Act of Treason is not nearly that powerful because it offers only a temporary boost in terms of an extra attacker and one less blocker for your opponent. Mind Control cards offer a permanent advantage that will sometimes also force your opponent to waste precious resources to stop their own creature.
When it comes down to it, Mind Control and AoT can be looked at like the Unsummon v. Doom Blade comparison. Less mana will create much needed tempo, but you have to make good use of it in a small.window.
I don't recall saying that those points were an actual argument; they were meant to be a sarcastic observation which was followed by my actual post. As I said, this is what I gathered after skimming through 100-ish posts of content in a short time - a large portion of which consisted of people getting really annoyed that this card was a rare, with a small smattering of defense.
Did my post argue that it was in because of limited balance? No. I said that, in my opinion, the community backlash would have probably been worse had they just gone back to printing Mind Control (only as a rare). The only real thing I pointed out otherwise was that three years worth of core sets (M10-M12) have showed us just how stupid Mind Control can be in a limited format. Even at rare, it would still probably be the best card in the format by a large margin.
As for the context of 'proper'; I intended to mean that there was a baseline of your average 'steal' effect (which I think Mind Control defines at 5-mana), with lower-cost ones having some kind of drawback, and higher-cost ones getting some sweet upsides. I suppose I could have explained that a little better, but I was at work and somewhat limited on time.
If I actually had the time to read every single post, then yes, I agree that those alternatives would have been included.
A. People don't seem to realize/care that limited balance is highly relevant when creating sets.
B. A difference in mana costs is going to mean *gasp* a proper scaling of the effect in question.
First of all, Mind Control being a rare in place of Domestication probably would have gone over worse within the community. Instead, we would have threads of players whining "OMG Why is Mind Control a freakin' rare?! I already have 9 ba-jillion uncommon ones! WORST SET EVAR!!" While, yes it is a very powerful card; three core sets worth of limited play have shown that a 5-mana 'steal your guy, no strings attached' was completely bonkers, regardless of rarity. We, unfortunately had to see it at uncommon - where it would be the most obnoxious (same with Overrun, to a lesser extent).
Second, there's a mana-cost difference, and Domestication costing less than the baseline of Mind Control means that certain drawbacks must be placed on the card in order to balance it, as per WotC's current definition on blue's 'stealing' mechanic. While this does mean that Domestication has to be made worse in the sense that it can't just perma-steal anything, it theoretically becomes better in the sense that it has a lower mana investment, which is often the largest factor when determining a card's constructed viability.
As for constructed viability? While it's not going to be a format-defining powerhouse, I feel that it will have a much better chance of seeing Standard play on its second run (remember that its first appearance in Rise of the Eldrazi went from a format defined by BBE, Knight of the Reliquary, and Goblin Guide - along with Bolt, Terminate, Path as premier removal - into the age of Titans and Jace Wars). Why? Well, what are two of the most powerful cards in the format, right now?
...Voice of Resurgence and Boros Reckoner. Why is that? Well, one requires very specific answers to minimize its impact (sorcery speed removal that doesn't send it to the GY), and the other can make combat absolutely miserable for any player...well, that and it can cast a stupidly large Magic Missile on your ass without warning. The way I see it, while not the ultimate answer to both, Domestication looks to be a rather good way of fighting both of these creatures in the current format.
Let me state that I am not saying that this is the best Mind Control effect around. Frankly, it would barely make a top 10 list. What I am saying is that it does have the potential to serve a purpose in Standard, and be a powerful limited card without being as back-breaking (and unfun) as something like Mind Control. Will this be a 4-of card in all Standard decks? Oh, geez, no. If you want to speculate on how much of an impact this card will have, I would say somewhere in sync with Sever the Bloodline: it isn't the best at killing everything, but for the threats it's geared for, I think it can handle them very effectively.
My .02 (and I'm just really tired of seeing these same old threads over and over and over without any sort of intelligable arguments to be had).
Instant (U)
Choose one - Return target creature to its owner's hand; or you may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield; or target creature you control gets +1/+1 and gains hexproof until end of turn.
Green ability is a mix of Explore and an homage to Coiling Oracle. Template might be a tad clunky, but I like the idea of it. I got in the mood for designing potential charms, and wanted to make sure that I wasn't stepping on the toes the other RtR charms (i.e. making sure that each color showcased a different sort of effect on each charm).
This is the same template I would think makes the most sense for the charms. There have been some decent designs posted here, but many of the proposed charms just appear to be random abilities tacked onto cards, and more focused on making them more powerful rather than flavourful. With any combination of abilities, your example Azorius Charm feels very flavourful while keeping the card at a reasonable power level.
When I had planned to play Delver at a random FNM (didn't end up going) a few weeks ago, I was pretty dead set on running at least two Angels. I had somewhat of a strange mishmash of two Geists, four Splicers, and overall it felt too clunky to me. I basically recognized that Angel would be good, but overestimated the need for cards like Blade Splicer to power it up.
1. Either Nekrataal or an 'updated' version: I just feel like black -especially in the more creature-centric iterations of standard - should have an 'assassin' creature in the format most of the time. Much like Oblivion Ring or Rampant Growth, I feel like this is an effect that standard should always have. An example of a 'redone' Nekrataal:
Silent Stalker
2BB (Uncommon)
Creature - Human Assassin
Intimidate
When Silent Stalker enters the battlefield, destroy target nonblack creature.
2/1
If you want a more flavorful 'assassin' the Doom Blade effect could be swapped with an Assassinate effect (destroy a tapped creature).
2. A cycle of sweet ally-colored commons or uncommons: Since multicolor is more than likely to have some place in the core set this year, I imagine that common multicolor spells isn't too outrageous. Cards like Terminate, Qasali Pridemage, Recoil, Hull Breach, Hindering Light are good examples.
3. Fauna Shaman: Green has had access to powerful tutor effects such as Birthing Pod and Green Sun's Zenith over the last year, both of which are going to be leaving us come October. Fauna Shaman's initial run in standard was not what people expected (mostly because of Valakut's ability to quash midrange decks), so I think that some would enjoy seeing her get a second chance. Obviously, it won't be as powerful as it was in a format with Vengevine and Squadron Hawk, but it should still find a home in current green creature strategies.
4. Spell Snare: Yes, 'permission' cards are being downplayed and are in a weird place right now, but I still think that this card would be reasonable for such a small format. It still fits the modern idea of what 'permission' spells should look like at one mana: a hard counter that is very narrow in scope. The other reason is for eternal format purposes, as I have recently noticed that Spell Snare is currently in the $10-$12 range. For an uncommon from a recent set, that's pretty absurd.
I like the idea of a revised Prohibit, but the only thing that I can think of would be a two-mana spell that reads "Counter target spell with converted mana cost 3 or less." Under their new philosophy that might not be something that they would want to print at 1U, but I could see it at least UU.
In general, the whole "Mana Leak is too powerful" debate that's been going on has left me in a weird spot. I don't necessarily agree that it is too powerful of a card to see print again, but I do think that it is about time that it rotates out of Standard. Countermagic will always be a sensitive topic for most, as it can be simplified as Blue's most effective way to interact with opposing threats, but at the same time just rubs too many players the wrong way.
I think that, in it's current state, the balance of countermagic is where they want things to be. Developers have appropriately defined the range and effectiveness of a given piece of permission at varying costs, and I think that right now there doesn't need to be more major shifts in their design. This brings us back to Mana Leak, which has found itself a place on the "Most Wanted" list. Once again, it needs to be stressed that much of the perception of Mana Leak's current power in the format comes from the pair of overly aggressive creatures Blue has received: Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage.
The fact of the matter is, with Snapcaster Mage being a card in Standard, Mana Leak is no longer Mana Leak, but a new spell that is indeed far too powerful for the format:
1U - Instant
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 3. If you cast this spell from your graveyard, put a 2/1 Blue Human Wizard token onto the battlefield.
Flashback - 2UU
When you start viewing the card in this manner, it appears more unfair than in previous contexts. Delver of Secrets doesn't help matters either, as many soft or conditional counters become much more devastating when the player casting them started their second or third turn with a Snapping Drake on the board. Again, in this context, Mana Leak has been warped into a grossly oppressive card.
This sort of context is not anything new; natural synergy in Magic is a constant, and in some instances said synergy has been pushed over the edge. We see it on an almost annual basis in Standard - Stoneforge Mystic + Swords/Batterskull (and Jace, the Mind Sculptor); Bloodbraid Elf in the Jund deck; Cryptic Command with Vivid Land + Reflecting Pool manabases. In a lot of cases, the synergies themselves involve cards that are far too powerful for the format. In other cases, such as the Cryptic Command case, the reasonable card (Cryptic was a strong card, but at a 1UUU cost it was not intended to see much play outside of 1-2 colour decks), got a huge power boost from surrounding cards that effectively removed any sort of drawback it had. Does Mana Leak become more powerful when you can add a pseudo-flashback cost to it? Of course, and that can be said about a multitude of cards, much like if you reduce the cost of a card or add a cantrip to it.
Once again, I stress that I am not advocating that Mana Leak stick around for another year (it needs to rotate out for a while, at least until Innistrad rotates out), I simply wanted to point out that while it is a part of the boogeyman deck of the format it does not deserve all of the blame. As such, I still stand by my statement that I believe that R&D is wrong in saying that the card itself is too powerful to see print again. In this context, Mana Leak is simply a victim of circumstance, and it happens to be the easiest card to blame because of its classification as countermagic.
*Bows, walks off the stage*