Mulldrifter - One of the best designed cards in a long time. Acts as an early card draw mechanism and later doubles up as a 2/2 blocking/attacking body, everyone likes this card. It's not broken, just a staple that is fairly powerful that I could see being in every T2 evironment. Since it has evoke though, it's unlikely it'll be reprinted, the card will be missed.
Cloudgoat Ranger - Unlikely to be reprinted as well (due to it producing kithkin soldiers), but makes token strategies viable while not being completely unfair (due to the amount of mass removal).
Spectral Procession - see above
Figure of Destiny - Best 1 drop ever printed. I really hate to see this card leave. It gives weenie strategies the late game raw power they desperately need.
Bitterblossom - With faeries rotating out, it wouldn't be as abusable as before, though still very powerful. It's an extra tool that opens up a lot of interesting design space in decks. I really don't think it's that much more powerful than phyrexian arena.
Cards that shouldn't be reprinted:
Reveillark - so broken. It should either be errated for it's ability to trigger when it hits the graveyard, NOT when it leaves play. I think everyone can agree that this card is way OP'd.
Last year, most of the top 8 would've just been just about all faeries. Thank god there's so much hate for faeries now, because with less people playing faeries, tokens finally has emerged as a major archtype.
So I'm really happy with how diverse the format is, you never know what deck you're going to face and you've always gotta be on your toes because more and more people are bringing their homebrew decks to local tournaments (which are surprisingly pretty competitive thanks to reborn).
Btw, Sesimic Swans and B/W Kithkin won the PTQ.
but chapin's 5-CC deck looked pretty sick in action, everything is always a 2-1 deal in that deck. was very impressed with it.
I wasn't impressed with bant however, that deck just seems to lose to everything in the standard metagame.
swans deck is the combo deck to beat, as inconsistent as it is, a third of the time it can pull of its turn four kill. Save your meddling mages.
Hey neas, tested the deck without spectral, results were not....good. We NEED spectral, otherwise the deck isn't powerfulat all. Spectral Procession and overrun is the most broken combo in the format and we've gotta try to make it work, because really, just relying on liege to pump up our non-token guys just makes us vulnerable to terror and spotted removal, and that's just not scary at all.
Plus without spectral, it was almost impossible for me to ever activate windbrisk heights.
We can't just remove our best card because of one card in the format, that's crazy.
Right now, I'm trying neas' idea of not having spectral MD. w/o spectrals, the deck becomes slower, but less vulnerable to removal. I MD 4 Wrath of Gods because I like the idea of dauntless escort plague winding, and it helps against creature heavy decks -- I think it'll help in our B/W matchup. Not too much in the deck is vulnerable to Zealous Persecution (except for the Cloudgoat tokens), but I guess that just can't be helped. Because the creature base is heavier, the liege is now more important than ever, often giving your guys a +2/+2 bonus.
1. removal of spec proc : with zealous persecution i could see this being a 1 for 1 trade if you dont get liege out. Also tokens get owned by pulse.
Intriquing. You're right there is a lot of hate out there in the form of ZP and pulse. With so many cards out there to "get" spectral procession, it might be worthwhile removing spectral, and then strengtening the creature core and winning by overrun'ing with those guys (who can't be ZP'd), backed up by Dauntless Escort.
G/W tokens used to have a pretty favorable matchup against b/w tokens. Zealous persecution has completely flipped things around as G/W simply cannot win without its tokens on the board.
Also, I dont like kitchen finks in green/white tokens. For a deck that supposed to be aggressive, an anti-aggro card doesnt belong there IMO.
Surely the treetops are less valuable to us than Hierarch? Realistically we will never have the available mana to activate treetop and overrun (although arguably it is nice as a 3/3 trampling beater anyway).
Treetops are very valuable to us, especially in the control matchup where they need spot removal rathar just a wrath to stop the beats. Treetop village with glorious anthem/ajani/elspeth vs. control is just peachy.
Still unsure about the whole Steward vs Pridemage argument. Pridemage gives us G1 improvement over BW, but Steward seems better in almost every other matchup (save faeries perhaps). Say 33% of the field comprises BW and you play 6 rounds, you are putting a guy in who makes G1 of 2 of your rounds better... I just feel like thats not enough (despite being a heavy advocate for pridemage in the past). However, I also feel like the board is way too crammed as it is. Speaking of which, how does everyone feel about Hallowed Burial vs. BW Tokens? Can also be effectively sided in vs Lark and *maybe* faeries. Current thinking is 2 wraths man, 3 burial sb. Still testing...
If Pridemages are MD, they don't replace the stewards, they play alongside them. The vigilence and mana producing has always been extremely relevant in the games I've played. Against a control play, I had a 5/5 steward out with the help of noble and 2 glorious anthems and just ran him over with that.
Don't think it's worth to MD pridemages. They're only good against b/w and faeries, otherwise they're just 2/2 bear that we just dont need. If enchantments or artifacts or giving you problems, just SB austere command.
Tested against b/w tokens tonight with glorious anthem MD.
It was still a blowout in favor of B/W. ZP still wrecks us, as we're not always able to get the glorious online. In other news though, I really liked having the glorious MD, playing cloudgoat and spectral with that enchantment online is very, very nice, and won me a couple of games.
Removing hierarchs? Really? Those guys are really good, the exalted is always relevant although the pridemage has it too. I'd be willing to test 4 pridemages over the hierarch, although it sucks that I dropped 60 bucks on a playset already.
I agree with the above suggestion of MD wraths over coup.
I'm rarely disappointed when I draw into a coup. We've got 8 accelerators and 2 garruks, so it's usually pretty easy, at least for me to hit the 7 mark (unless you have a slow hand).
I love Martial coup whenever I have it. Possibly because I play 1 *** and 2 Coup MD and 7 mana creatures. Paying the extra 3 for 5 tokens is a great tradeoff to me, but I wouldn't run one over the other, I'd run them both.
Also, would replacing Lieges with anthems for budgetary issues be a bad idea?
Anthems MD isn't a bad idea with Zealous Persecution running amok, but I wouldn't replace the lieges for it. Run at least 3x lieges because you need that extra fat and the pump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zero_99 cloudthresher is still better when you get to mid-late game. you can evoke it early game if you need to at instant speed and done exactly the same thing if not better. you normally don't play hurricane at turn 3 and losing the instant speed is bad against fae. you want to make them tap out to counter at their turn so you can drop more threats during your turn. not to mention hurricane is easier to get countered by spellstutter.
That's only true if you are going to 'Cane for 2. Late game against BW their dudes are usually bigger. If they have 2 Anthems down, or managed to add Ajani counters to their dudes before you drew Thresher, all he really does is block one. Is it easier to Stutter it? Sure. So what? I honestly don't expect to see much Fae. It just loses to too much these days. On the other hand I expect to see a lot of Spirit tokens starting around T2. If you're on the draw and they go T3 Spec Proc (which is the correct play against you every time) then you can kill their tokens for 2 mana instead of waiting until T4 at earliest. Then play Treetop or Heights or Hierarch and you have lost no tempo despite having to respond to their threat. Against Bblossom all of a sudden you get to count their llife and X them to death or at least into kill range.
Also, you are boarding in Gutteral. Thresher costs 4 or 6. Hurricane can cost 5 (killing Plumveils!) with Gutteral back up for the same investment. Hurricane is flexible and grows to match your need as your mana allows. Finally, you can Cane for X to bring your oppo into Overrun range, or kill that pesky Plainswalker, like Ajani or Garruk in the mirror.
Don't get me wrong, I really like Thresher, especially against Fae. You are right about Stutter. Flashing in a 7/7 body is amazing and flashing him in and then overruning is just plain wrong. But without trample, he just gets chumped and most decks are just going to Path him before he actually does any damage. And let's be honest...how often do you expect to see Fae? I don't. The best decks in the current format, the decks you have to worry about are BW Tokens (persist or aggro), GW Overrun, Blightning (it's definitely Tier 2, but it's cheap and got some sexy tools), 5CC and RW Kithkin. You should also be prepared to see some kind of Reveillark. A buddy of mine has been testing a UW version with some success. Fae may turn uop, but in low numbers. It loses to BW (#1) and this deck (#2) so who's going to play it?
At the end of the day I am absolutely certain that 'Cane is the superior card in the current environment. But hey, if you are more comfortable with Thresher, play Thresher. He's good too. Just not optimal.
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Youa make a pretty damn good case for hurricane over thresher, and I would replace it except I don't have it in my SB anymore. I run Austere Commands because it does everything you mentioned above except for the direct life loss, but trades that off for hitting enchantments.
I think Sigil Blessing could work effectively here as a counter to ZP. Should they play ZP as a defensive measure to trade creatures with you, Sigil Blessing can blow them out. If ZP is played offensively to blow you out, it can be used to at least trade with them and even keep one of your guys alive.
Not to mention Dauntless Escort can also help against ZP as a last resort.
It's a one-time pump effect...and deck space is precious. I'd much rather MD glorious anthems if we have to counter ZP than play sigil blessing.
So in the end, I think we have to use either the Sigil Captain (which promises more raw power, but at the cost of being situational) or glorious which doesn't pump up the tokens as much, but in return pumps up your non-tokens in addition...I think I'd go with the glorious anthem. In the end, I think I'd run a decklist that is similar to the one mudkips posted above (although I wouldn't run kitchen finks or white orchids).
Glorious Anthems are a necessary evil. Remember, we need our tokens to survive. If our tokens die, we'll never get to overrun FTW.
Mark of Asylum seems unnecessary as you have the dauntless escorts already. I'd use Austere Command over Wrath of God because Austere Command hits B/W tokens and kithkin's enchantments.
EDIT: Although if you are going to MD glorious anthems, it may be worth reconsidering my suggestion.
Anything we can do to fight zealous persecution? Against B/W tokens, Sigil Captain seems amazing (as your guys wont die to ZP) and could maybe replace the liege. I know he has to be in play before the tokens come in and it slows down the deck a bit, but it also gives us more raw power and stability. Sigil Captain also offers protection against fallout and infest.
EDIT: Lots of kithkin decks are now splashing black for ZP. Not cool...
Did you run into a lot of mass removal trouble? Zealous Persecution woes?
I'm trying to decide whether to play sigil captain because it seems like it would trump ZP and volcanic fallout, but it means taking out pridemages or lieges in its place.
Someone suggested in the other thread of hurricane possibly replacing cloudthresher in the SB. I kind of like it, it's really good against the bitterblossom tokens and I like how it can hit players and planeswalkers. Thoughts?
Cloudgoat Ranger - Unlikely to be reprinted as well (due to it producing kithkin soldiers), but makes token strategies viable while not being completely unfair (due to the amount of mass removal).
Spectral Procession - see above
Figure of Destiny - Best 1 drop ever printed. I really hate to see this card leave. It gives weenie strategies the late game raw power they desperately need.
Bitterblossom - With faeries rotating out, it wouldn't be as abusable as before, though still very powerful. It's an extra tool that opens up a lot of interesting design space in decks. I really don't think it's that much more powerful than phyrexian arena.
Cards that shouldn't be reprinted:
Reveillark - so broken. It should either be errated for it's ability to trigger when it hits the graveyard, NOT when it leaves play. I think everyone can agree that this card is way OP'd.
Faeries
(homebrew) 5-CC
(homebrew) Bant
(regular) Bant
G/W Tokens
B/W Tokens
Planeswalker Control
B/W Tokens
The top 8 decks were interesting, with 1 homebrew deck making it to the top:
Chapin's 5 CC
Warp World.dec
RDW
Boat Brew
U/W Reveillark
B/W Tokens
Sesimic Swans
B/W Kithkin
Last year, most of the top 8 would've just been just about all faeries. Thank god there's so much hate for faeries now, because with less people playing faeries, tokens finally has emerged as a major archtype.
So I'm really happy with how diverse the format is, you never know what deck you're going to face and you've always gotta be on your toes because more and more people are bringing their homebrew decks to local tournaments (which are surprisingly pretty competitive thanks to reborn).
Btw, Sesimic Swans and B/W Kithkin won the PTQ.
but chapin's 5-CC deck looked pretty sick in action, everything is always a 2-1 deal in that deck. was very impressed with it.
I wasn't impressed with bant however, that deck just seems to lose to everything in the standard metagame.
swans deck is the combo deck to beat, as inconsistent as it is, a third of the time it can pull of its turn four kill. Save your meddling mages.
Plus without spectral, it was almost impossible for me to ever activate windbrisk heights.
We can't just remove our best card because of one card in the format, that's crazy.
Please dont let regionals be swarmed with this deck.
Honestly though, it's a very smart deck choice for a very creature heavy meta like this one.
4 Forest
4 Plains
4 Treetop Village
4 Windbrisk Heights
4 Wooded Bastion
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Cloudgoat Ranger
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Dauntless Escort
2 Cloudthresher
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Overrun
3 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
3 Burrentin Forge-Tender
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Guttural Response
2 Austere Command
1 Path to Exile
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Cloudthresher
1 Elspeth
What do the rest of you think?
Also, I dont like kitchen finks in green/white tokens. For a deck that supposed to be aggressive, an anti-aggro card doesnt belong there IMO.
Treetops are very valuable to us, especially in the control matchup where they need spot removal rathar just a wrath to stop the beats. Treetop village with glorious anthem/ajani/elspeth vs. control is just peachy.
If Pridemages are MD, they don't replace the stewards, they play alongside them. The vigilence and mana producing has always been extremely relevant in the games I've played. Against a control play, I had a 5/5 steward out with the help of noble and 2 glorious anthems and just ran him over with that.
Don't think it's worth to MD pridemages. They're only good against b/w and faeries, otherwise they're just 2/2 bear that we just dont need. If enchantments or artifacts or giving you problems, just SB austere command.
It was still a blowout in favor of B/W. ZP still wrecks us, as we're not always able to get the glorious online. In other news though, I really liked having the glorious MD, playing cloudgoat and spectral with that enchantment online is very, very nice, and won me a couple of games.
Removing hierarchs? Really? Those guys are really good, the exalted is always relevant although the pridemage has it too. I'd be willing to test 4 pridemages over the hierarch, although it sucks that I dropped 60 bucks on a playset already.
I agree with the above suggestion of MD wraths over coup.
Anthems MD isn't a bad idea with Zealous Persecution running amok, but I wouldn't replace the lieges for it. Run at least 3x lieges because you need that extra fat and the pump.
Youa make a pretty damn good case for hurricane over thresher, and I would replace it except I don't have it in my SB anymore. I run Austere Commands because it does everything you mentioned above except for the direct life loss, but trades that off for hitting enchantments.
Did you just get bad draws and g/w got good ones? It seems with ZP the matchup should've been in your favor.
So in the end, I think we have to use either the Sigil Captain (which promises more raw power, but at the cost of being situational) or glorious which doesn't pump up the tokens as much, but in return pumps up your non-tokens in addition...I think I'd go with the glorious anthem. In the end, I think I'd run a decklist that is similar to the one mudkips posted above (although I wouldn't run kitchen finks or white orchids).
Glorious Anthems are a necessary evil. Remember, we need our tokens to survive. If our tokens die, we'll never get to overrun FTW.
Mark of Asylum seems unnecessary as you have the dauntless escorts already. I'd use Austere Command over Wrath of God because Austere Command hits B/W tokens and kithkin's enchantments.
EDIT: Although if you are going to MD glorious anthems, it may be worth reconsidering my suggestion.
EDIT: Lots of kithkin decks are now splashing black for ZP. Not cool...
Are the wilt-leaf lieges a must in the deck?
How happy were you with the pridemages MD?
Did you run into a lot of mass removal trouble? Zealous Persecution woes?
I'm trying to decide whether to play sigil captain because it seems like it would trump ZP and volcanic fallout, but it means taking out pridemages or lieges in its place.