Awesome explanation - thanks for taking the time to lay it all out like that. It's an immense help and can apply to a few other situations that have come up in our sessions
Right on - this comes up a lot in our playgroup when trying to work out a dying Child of Alara commander. If the owner chooses to allow it to hit the 'yard, it blows up the world as expected. If he chooses to put it into the Command Zone instead, it never hit the graveyard and none of those effects trigger.
From here, I presume I can target Baleful Strix with the copy of Exclude.
The copy counters the Strix, and I draw a card.
Does the original Exclude resolve? Do I draw a second card?
If I were copying Psychic Barrier, would my opponent lose 2 life (total)?
Another interaction I *believe* was answered in an older thread, but I'm still not clear on:
How does copying a spell like Insidious Dreams work?
Does the copy force a second cost of discarding cards (I believe the answer is "no")
And do I search for a second set of X cards? Or is X set to "0" for the copy?
And for the grand prize, what happens if I copy something like Saheeli's Artistry where both modes were chosen with legal targets?
I know the copy is locked into using the same modes, but do I get to chose new targets for each mode?
I believe I understand it well enough, but Meletis Charlaton has caused quite a few "discussions" in our EDH group
What about cards that might help get the combo off, or keep the pieces together? What sort of card son the lower end of the mana curve could pose as counterspell bait? Nothing feels worse than seeing that Descent of Dragons fail thanks to Disdainful Stroke haha
Red has gained some interesting tools on the lower-end and mid-game parts of the curve that might make this idea actually work with some consistency. The expected slower format seems to be a perfect time to test out some of the other existing ideas in new concepts.
Feasible:
T2 Dragon Tempest, T3 Hordeling Outburst, T4 Hedron Archive, T5 Descent of the Dragons.
If none of your goblins died, that's 9 damage from Tempest (3 dragons EtB "seeing" each other for 3 damage each) and then a 12 point flying attack phase (3 hasted 4/4 flying dragon tokens).
I think Thunderbreak Regent is fantastic in this potential deck list but I'm not sure what else needs to show up.
I also liked using Valakut Predator with Slab Hammer in the pre-release, but I'm not sure that "mini combo" is good enough for constructed.
Anyone have some ideas that might help me out with this? Splashing a second color is not out of the question.
How the hell do you ever activate Shambling Vent as a creature with that list? Why are you using Opulent Palace at all?
Also, I strongly feel like 4x Anticipate plus 4x Dig are just too much, especially with a copy of Prerogative in there. I wouldn't go more than 3x Anticipate, 2x Dig, 1x Prerogative (or leave Prerogative out and go 3x Dig). With those extra slots I'd bring in at least another Scatter and some additional spot removal. For a control deck, you've got more draw spells than kill spells. You could also just run a copy or two of Blighted Fen as an "oh, crap!" panic button.
I respectfully disagree - it's 100% about the mana base.
My point was just that either way, there's not much difference. Staying true to UB, you have more color focus and 4 fetches that can grab either. Splashing white doesn't hurt your mana base in the current environment because there's tons of fixing available.
All that being said, I specifically mentioned Ojutai in support of the white splash... Ojutai's Command is fine but is it really crucial to the archetype? I'm not seeing it. I'd argue more in favor for Utter End, simply because it is more flexible removal. Seeing as Command only counters creature spells and you are basically never using the recursion mode, the only other piece is gaining 4 life - relevant but not the best argument to support "white adds life gain". I mean, you might rarely use it for that cantrip mode but we have better options. Just how I'm seeing things.
I do like the cards Furious mentioned, though. They're all nice early plays that keep our opponent's tempo advantages down.
With the rotation of Radiant Fountain, Retreat to Hagra looks like a great way to stabilize. Highly splashable, well-costed, and also hits the opponent while keeping you afloat, requiring no mana committment to operate beyond playing it. 4x Dismal Backwater is also helpful in this regard.
The counter spell suite is a little heavy, but I think in a slower format where players are talking about 3+ color decks, it should be fine. Scatter to the Winds is your basic Cancel with an upside. Disdainful Stroke is a proven utility card, and I think the sideboard warrants running the other 2 copies. Spell Shrivel is very splashable and should be a hard counter every time you tap for it. I like it more than Clash of Wills because it keeps your opponent from simply counting up your open mana the way they do when they know you run Clash. I think Horribly Awry is primed to be an all star, although it's possible that 3 copies is a bit much while people are jamming high-cmc creatures into these decks. Still, we know that Competitive play is all about low curve value so I think it's worth the risk.
Ruinous Path is nice and flexible albeit at Sorcery speed vs. what we had with Hero's Downfall, but the upside of Awaken to create board presence... I'll take it! Ultimate Price might be too much at 3 copies, but I feel like it will be fine and rarely a dead card. Certainly, this is a slot that can invite debate. A singleton Languish seems out of place, but I worry that its -4 isn't going to be enough in many cases so I'd rather just have Crux of Fate. Still, its sweet on the curve so it deserves a spot.... this could easily just be a 4th Crux or perhaps a Murderous Cut.
I like Sphinx's Tutelage for easy resource denial and an alternate win condition (even if we are not trying to make this a mill-focused combo deck), and Retreat to Hagra to stabilize your life total. Granted, I don't expect Tutelage to trigger re-mills very often in this coming climate, but two per turn is still a decent rate that stacks with multiple copies in play.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy gives you a low cmc blocker and provides recursion possibilities, and can contribute to the mill strategy if you manage to ultimate him. Still, the main threats are a singleton Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and the 7 Awaken spells.
I would say you could, at minimum, trade out 4x Mountain for 4x Blood Crypt. Otherwise, only 1/10th of your deck can be used to produce black mana (counting Mires as black sources because that's essentially what they grab). With my suggested changes, you double your chances to 1/5.
Your sideboard should definitely start with 4x Blood Moon.
Hrm, apologies for the double post, but I can't seem to just edit the original.
I wanted to add that Aetherspouts might be an even better option than the spot removal. I'm not 100% sure on that one though. Mass Calcify might make sense here as well.
Can someone walk me through what happens in the following scenarios?
I have Meletis Charlatan in play.
An opponent casts a creature spell (Baleful Strix, for example).
I cast Exclude, targetting Baleful Strix.
I copy Exclude with Meletis Charlatan.
From here, I presume I can target Baleful Strix with the copy of Exclude.
The copy counters the Strix, and I draw a card.
Does the original Exclude resolve? Do I draw a second card?
If I were copying Psychic Barrier, would my opponent lose 2 life (total)?
Another interaction I *believe* was answered in an older thread, but I'm still not clear on:
How does copying a spell like Insidious Dreams work?
Does the copy force a second cost of discarding cards (I believe the answer is "no")
And do I search for a second set of X cards? Or is X set to "0" for the copy?
And for the grand prize, what happens if I copy something like Saheeli's Artistry where both modes were chosen with legal targets?
I know the copy is locked into using the same modes, but do I get to chose new targets for each mode?
I believe I understand it well enough, but Meletis Charlaton has caused quite a few "discussions" in our EDH group
Thanks in advance
Excellent! Has great synergy with both Impact Tremors and Dragon Tempest.
I'm not seeing either Command as adding a lot adding much to the idea for the main deck, but maybe as sideboard options?
Another interesting card to splash for Green might be Rattleclaw Mystic. If you can flip him, it's likely to cast Descent sooner.
What about cards that might help get the combo off, or keep the pieces together? What sort of card son the lower end of the mana curve could pose as counterspell bait? Nothing feels worse than seeing that Descent of Dragons fail thanks to Disdainful Stroke haha
Specifically, I am trying to create a shell for the combo of Dragon Tempest and Descent of the Dragons.
Feasible:
T2 Dragon Tempest, T3 Hordeling Outburst, T4 Hedron Archive, T5 Descent of the Dragons.
If none of your goblins died, that's 9 damage from Tempest (3 dragons EtB "seeing" each other for 3 damage each) and then a 12 point flying attack phase (3 hasted 4/4 flying dragon tokens).
I think Thunderbreak Regent is fantastic in this potential deck list but I'm not sure what else needs to show up.
I also liked using Valakut Predator with Slab Hammer in the pre-release, but I'm not sure that "mini combo" is good enough for constructed.
Anyone have some ideas that might help me out with this? Splashing a second color is not out of the question.
Also, I strongly feel like 4x Anticipate plus 4x Dig are just too much, especially with a copy of Prerogative in there. I wouldn't go more than 3x Anticipate, 2x Dig, 1x Prerogative (or leave Prerogative out and go 3x Dig). With those extra slots I'd bring in at least another Scatter and some additional spot removal. For a control deck, you've got more draw spells than kill spells. You could also just run a copy or two of Blighted Fen as an "oh, crap!" panic button.
All that being said, I specifically mentioned Ojutai in support of the white splash... Ojutai's Command is fine but is it really crucial to the archetype? I'm not seeing it. I'd argue more in favor for Utter End, simply because it is more flexible removal. Seeing as Command only counters creature spells and you are basically never using the recursion mode, the only other piece is gaining 4 life - relevant but not the best argument to support "white adds life gain". I mean, you might rarely use it for that cantrip mode but we have better options. Just how I'm seeing things.
I do like the cards Furious mentioned, though. They're all nice early plays that keep our opponent's tempo advantages down.
Doesn't Void Snare rotate with M15?
Red lost Anger of the Gods and White doesn't offer a whole lot in my opinion, outside of Ojutai.
What do you have in mind?
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Spell Shrivel
3x Scatter to the Winds
3x Horribly Awry
[11] Removal
4x Ruinous Path
3x Ultimate Price
1x Languish
3x Crux of Fate
4x Sphinx's Tutelage
3x Retreat to Hagra
3x Dig Through Time
[3] Creatures
2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
[26] Mana base
4x Polluted Delta
4x Sunken Hollow
2x Blighted Fen
2x Skyline Cascade
4x Dismal Backwater
5x Swamp
5x Island
With the rotation of Radiant Fountain, Retreat to Hagra looks like a great way to stabilize. Highly splashable, well-costed, and also hits the opponent while keeping you afloat, requiring no mana committment to operate beyond playing it. 4x Dismal Backwater is also helpful in this regard.
The counter spell suite is a little heavy, but I think in a slower format where players are talking about 3+ color decks, it should be fine. Scatter to the Winds is your basic Cancel with an upside. Disdainful Stroke is a proven utility card, and I think the sideboard warrants running the other 2 copies. Spell Shrivel is very splashable and should be a hard counter every time you tap for it. I like it more than Clash of Wills because it keeps your opponent from simply counting up your open mana the way they do when they know you run Clash. I think Horribly Awry is primed to be an all star, although it's possible that 3 copies is a bit much while people are jamming high-cmc creatures into these decks. Still, we know that Competitive play is all about low curve value so I think it's worth the risk.
Ruinous Path is nice and flexible albeit at Sorcery speed vs. what we had with Hero's Downfall, but the upside of Awaken to create board presence... I'll take it! Ultimate Price might be too much at 3 copies, but I feel like it will be fine and rarely a dead card. Certainly, this is a slot that can invite debate. A singleton Languish seems out of place, but I worry that its -4 isn't going to be enough in many cases so I'd rather just have Crux of Fate. Still, its sweet on the curve so it deserves a spot.... this could easily just be a 4th Crux or perhaps a Murderous Cut.
I like Sphinx's Tutelage for easy resource denial and an alternate win condition (even if we are not trying to make this a mill-focused combo deck), and Retreat to Hagra to stabilize your life total. Granted, I don't expect Tutelage to trigger re-mills very often in this coming climate, but two per turn is still a decent rate that stacks with multiple copies in play.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy gives you a low cmc blocker and provides recursion possibilities, and can contribute to the mill strategy if you manage to ultimate him. Still, the main threats are a singleton Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and the 7 Awaken spells.
Your sideboard should definitely start with 4x Blood Moon.
Still seems like a good tool to run for this list.
I like it! At the very least, it's a decent one-cast way to draw a card with Military Intelligence.
I wanted to add that Aetherspouts might be an even better option than the spot removal. I'm not 100% sure on that one though. Mass Calcify might make sense here as well.