So good to read all the good news, rant! See how Fate is already trying to mess with you by wielding the power of Fear? Do not let it, instead enjoy what is to come!
That is what we thought until now, but we do Rochester full table and support Sneak Attack, Eureka and big ramp. This is what made me doubt. The Wurm is also big enough to make it worth to try and combo it out.
Even in a booster draft scenario I found the super-fatties to be in high demand as soon as you add enough ways to cheat them into play. Worldspine Wurm and Progenitus have the additional upside of being green if you support Natural Order. The Wurm also leaves some bodies behind when used with Sneak Attack or Through the Breach. I don't know how much your players like Terastodon, but I'd give the Wurm a try for sure!
Well, you left out the "significantly" part in both of my statements, so I can see why you are confused. I think my statements are logically sound, only you don't agree with all my assumptions (which is fine).
I just don't think that power is the only realistic way of beating Library. I do think that it would most likely be the best card in an unpowered Cube, but there always is a best card. The question is, whether it would be by such a large margin as to be oppressive. I don't know because I have not played such a Cube, I assumed it would be too good and cut it. But I think there is a chance that it would be just very, very good, but in an OK way.
Since the cube in question will be the same list as before, just without power, I think it's safe to assume it will be slower than it was before. Making Library better than it was before.
Obviously it will be slower. All I'm saying is that it will not be significantly slower.
The question was whether or not Library of Alexandria should be cut in the process of unpowering the Cube. I did cut it, but Don D was contemplating leaving it in. Even though Don D is now decided on cutting the Library as well, I think there is some merit in leaving it in and see how it performs.
The power of Library of Alexandria depends on the speed of the format. A slower format is better for Library. Back in the day, when the average CMC of Cubes was higher, powered Cubes played Library. Why should Library be OK in such a Cube but not in an unpowered Cube with a lower average CMC?
I think I must be misunderstanding you , or are you seriously claiming that removing power doesn't make a cube slower? I agree that removing only pure power cards has only a minimal impact on the cube as they are only a couple of cards in a 360 or larger pool, but how can cube A (with Lotus, Sol Ring and Moxen) be slower then identical Cube B (swap power with other good cards)? These cards will always make the cube play faster, unless you lower the overall CC of your unpowered cube and even then.
I just don't think removing power significantly impacts the speed of the Cube, the general decrease in converted mana cost over the last few years is more relevant. So rather than looking at powered vs unpowered in order to decide whether Library of Alexandria would be too broken, I suggest looking at the general speed of the Cube in question.
Slowing down the cube doesn't make Library worse, it makes it so much better.
Thank you for the reply.
You say that:
A: Unpowering the Cube makes it slower.
B: LoA is better in a slower environment.
C: LoA has a very powerful effect for a small cost.
D: The player with LoA in the starting hand wins the game 95% of the time.
E: Turn 1 LoA is beatable by fast-mana starts.
F: Turn 1 LoA is beatable by the fastest aggro decks with burn.
G: E and F are the only ways to beat turn 1 LoA.
I agree with B, C, E and F.
I feel the game win percentage in D is hyperbolic, but I can't back this up with numbers.
I disagree with A (see my previous post) and G (this depends a lot on the Cube, but many decks can do things that are very hard to deal with even if you have access to a ridiculous amount of cards).
I can see how you come to the conclusion that LoA should be cut when you unpower the Cube. Personally, I am uncertain whether or not LoA should be cut, because I don't agree on all your reasons that lead to your conclusion.
Library of Alexandria provides card advantage but sets you back a turn in mana if you want to use that advantage. Sol Ring provides one turn of mana advantage the turn you play it and two turns of mana advantage on subsequent turns. Its card advantage vs tempo advantage. I think that back in the day, when the average casting cost of Cubes was higher, it was really close between Library and Sol Ring. Now, I pick Sol Ring every time, not close. In the faster environment of todays Cube, Sol Ring in your starting hand still means you are two turns ahead in mana, but Library may just not be relevant because early pressure means you can't afford to use it.
Now the difference between a powered and an unpowered Cube are not very many cards. Even for 360 cards Cubes its not even 5%, even less for larger Cubes obviously. The difference in tempo from the overall decrease in average mana cost is much more relevant than power, so the power level of Library should not be significantly higher in an unpowered Cube than in a powered Cube. In fact I would argue the opposite: having access to fast mana increases the chance of the Library player to actually turn the card advantage into board and/or tempo advantage before it's too late.
I personally chose to cut Library along with power (as explained in a previous post in this thread), but I do support Don Ds decision to keep it in and cut it if necessary.
I suggest running all the humans from your list and Isamaru, Hound of Konda. Running so many similar cards may seem boring, but one drops are very important for aggro decks. Make sure to check your creatures at 2-4 mana: it is a relatively new phenomenon that we have a decent number of one drops, and before that we used to make up for the lack of one drops with more expensive creatures (two drops, mostly). Now that we have the one drops, some of those more expensive creatures have to go imo in order to make room for the one drops.
I believe the word you're looking for is bandolier.
So that is how you spell that word in American? I thought "funny spelling", and then Wikipedia told me that you can spell it like that in German as well. In my dialect of Swiss we spell it bandoulière.
That said, these are some nice minimalist tokens. I like the cat token best, because of the bandoulière!
Agreed on grim monolith. I'll put it on my watch list next to mana drain. They will be removed if they are too dominant, but a little explosivness on turn 3 might be ok.
Oh yes, absolutely. It is a matter of design goals whether you go one way or the other. I wanted explosive ramp to be (more or less) green-only, because green was really an underplayed color before, and that worked fine for us.
I second what Star Slayer said about Mana Drain. I think fast mana is the main reason for very lopsided games, and Mana Drain lets you deny their three-drop and follow it up with a Grave Titan or Wurmcoil Engine or a four drop with counter backup. I found that to be too swingy. Your concerns about cutting a hard counter I can understand, I almost kept Mana Drain in for that reason. But the Cube works with one less hard counter. I added one more free counter in Daze, an I'm happy with the performance of that card. Pact of Negation can have its moments as well, but I think it is to expensive for a small Cube. I have not tried Scatter to the Winds yet, but as far as three mana counterspells go I think it looks promising.
I kept Mind Twist in as well when I cut power. It is much more fair when you remove fast mana. I mean it is obviously still broken, but it is a bit harder to find a window where it is just game-over broken if you have to develop your mana the fair way.
I cut Timetwister when I cut power, but only for historical reasons (because it is part of the "Power 9"). In a Cube without fast mana, Timetwister is not even that powerful. I agree with you not cutting it for power reasons.
I cut Library of Alexandria and Grim Monolith as well. Much like Mind Twist, they are borderline OK or borderline too strong, so I don't necessarily disagree with you for keeping them in. My reason to cut Monolith was that it enables turn three Titans in all colors without any additional hoops to jump through. That is both powerful and taking away from greens ramp, so I said no. Library is ultimately a high variance card, admittedly with a relatively low opportunity cost for including it in your deck, but still. There is not much middle ground between Library winning you the game and Library being a non-basic Wastes. In that, it is similar to Fastbond or Channel, and I cut both of these because my playgroup did not enjoy them very much, hit or miss.
Interesting card. A deck with mana rocks, cheap cantrips and/or free spells should be able to get the Surge trigger quite consistently with 5-7 mana available. Even though it is always hard to make cuts in blue, I think this card may well be worth testing, even in smaller Cubes (especially if your Cube supports a storm or a spells matter sub-theme).
You certainly make good points against the card. I have three reasons why I want to at least test the card:
- potential for great Cube stories
- incentive to draft 1-2 color decks
- spell lands increase the number of draft picks that can make the final 40, I'm willing to play relatively narrow cards to enable that
I just don't think that power is the only realistic way of beating Library. I do think that it would most likely be the best card in an unpowered Cube, but there always is a best card. The question is, whether it would be by such a large margin as to be oppressive. I don't know because I have not played such a Cube, I assumed it would be too good and cut it. But I think there is a chance that it would be just very, very good, but in an OK way.
The question was whether or not Library of Alexandria should be cut in the process of unpowering the Cube. I did cut it, but Don D was contemplating leaving it in. Even though Don D is now decided on cutting the Library as well, I think there is some merit in leaving it in and see how it performs.
The power of Library of Alexandria depends on the speed of the format. A slower format is better for Library. Back in the day, when the average CMC of Cubes was higher, powered Cubes played Library. Why should Library be OK in such a Cube but not in an unpowered Cube with a lower average CMC?
You say that:
A: Unpowering the Cube makes it slower.
B: LoA is better in a slower environment.
C: LoA has a very powerful effect for a small cost.
D: The player with LoA in the starting hand wins the game 95% of the time.
E: Turn 1 LoA is beatable by fast-mana starts.
F: Turn 1 LoA is beatable by the fastest aggro decks with burn.
G: E and F are the only ways to beat turn 1 LoA.
I agree with B, C, E and F.
I feel the game win percentage in D is hyperbolic, but I can't back this up with numbers.
I disagree with A (see my previous post) and G (this depends a lot on the Cube, but many decks can do things that are very hard to deal with even if you have access to a ridiculous amount of cards).
I can see how you come to the conclusion that LoA should be cut when you unpower the Cube. Personally, I am uncertain whether or not LoA should be cut, because I don't agree on all your reasons that lead to your conclusion.
Now the difference between a powered and an unpowered Cube are not very many cards. Even for 360 cards Cubes its not even 5%, even less for larger Cubes obviously. The difference in tempo from the overall decrease in average mana cost is much more relevant than power, so the power level of Library should not be significantly higher in an unpowered Cube than in a powered Cube. In fact I would argue the opposite: having access to fast mana increases the chance of the Library player to actually turn the card advantage into board and/or tempo advantage before it's too late.
I personally chose to cut Library along with power (as explained in a previous post in this thread), but I do support Don Ds decision to keep it in and cut it if necessary.
That said, these are some nice minimalist tokens. I like the cat token best, because of the bandoulière!
I kept Mind Twist in as well when I cut power. It is much more fair when you remove fast mana. I mean it is obviously still broken, but it is a bit harder to find a window where it is just game-over broken if you have to develop your mana the fair way.
I cut Timetwister when I cut power, but only for historical reasons (because it is part of the "Power 9"). In a Cube without fast mana, Timetwister is not even that powerful. I agree with you not cutting it for power reasons.
I cut Library of Alexandria and Grim Monolith as well. Much like Mind Twist, they are borderline OK or borderline too strong, so I don't necessarily disagree with you for keeping them in. My reason to cut Monolith was that it enables turn three Titans in all colors without any additional hoops to jump through. That is both powerful and taking away from greens ramp, so I said no. Library is ultimately a high variance card, admittedly with a relatively low opportunity cost for including it in your deck, but still. There is not much middle ground between Library winning you the game and Library being a non-basic Wastes. In that, it is similar to Fastbond or Channel, and I cut both of these because my playgroup did not enjoy them very much, hit or miss.
- potential for great Cube stories
- incentive to draft 1-2 color decks
- spell lands increase the number of draft picks that can make the final 40, I'm willing to play relatively narrow cards to enable that