I play 2 Metamorphs in the board as well as 1 MD Wurmcoil and one in the board to make sure I have outs to a Crusader. I know it's not perfect for dealing with them because you can't GSZ for them, but it is better than having no outs.
@ Transfan I was talking about Meddling Mage for the entire top of the post. I didn't mention Misstep until the 2nd part. Misstep may have a place in the deck as a 2-of in the Spell Pierce slot but Meddling Mage will be in my SB for the foreseeable future. I have used MM for Meddling Mage for too long to actually stop using it now for Misstep.
@ Uncoordinated I have considered moving the Revoker to 2 and cutting Karakas altogether. Most decks either hard cast him or use Shelldock Isle which plays him without paying his mana cost so his abilities trigger. I like Meddling Mage as combo hate. Naming Ad Nauseum or Tendrils of Agony can really disrupt a Storm player for long enough for beats to become too much. Pitching to FoW also makes it stronger. I side out Wayfarers against combo because they are too slow to make a real impact and Canonist, MM, and Revoker are much better against them. MoM protects the hate bears by forcing them into drawing 2 removal spells or more to get rid of the hate card and the MoM or casting a new hate card on the stack. If you prefer E Tutor and Null Rod/Thorn/Canonist over MM I wouldn't disagree with it but I like MM since it can also slow down something like High Tide or shut off hate cards they wish for.
I am thinking of using Misstep in the Spell Pierce slot. SP can feel dead in some games especially against heavy creature decks. Misstep will almost always be relevant. I'd have to test it though because I have won games at low life often because I need some time to get board position. If it helps keep their board cleaner or mine fuller for a turn or 2 it could be worth it. It really needs testing but I think this is a deck that could use it as a 2-of.
I have been thinking of splashing Blue in the deck to play Meddling Mage
Then we'll get
Scullers
Revokers
Meddling Mage
Needles
Then become the most annoying deck in the world. Granted we'll have to put in Vials to help out the mana problems.
Think it'll be too much?
I wouldn't want to splash a color for 1 card. It makes it either a dead card in hand if you don't have the mana or your lands produce the wrong mana when you need it to. Adding more of a splashed colors cards makes the deck weaker at what it is supposed to do which is disrupt into a finisher and win quickly from that. Blue would open you up to running cards like Brainstorm but then you have to cut hand disruption which is not what the deck needs. Adding Vials also makes it into more of an aggro deck which then you need to ask yourself if it would just be better to run Goblins or Merfolk. Goblins will be much faster and Merfolk has Force of Will which means it will have a better combo match up since they can disrupt on their turn 0. The only color that can be splashed effectively is green and then you are better off playing Junk which is where your card choices would take you anyway.
I played in the GPT at Millennium Games in Rochester on Sunday and took the deck to the top 8. I only ended up playing against Merfolk, RUG Stiflenaught and Storm which makes me fairly lucky since those are all pretty good match ups for the deck especially post board. I run an almost exact list to Conical but -2 Mirran Crusader +1 Vexing Sphinx +1 AEther Vial. My SB was more designed to be combo since I knew a ton of it was going to be there.
Banning Survival makes sense... It's been a hot card for many, many years even when DCI created the format they already knew Survival may cause trouble but decided to keep the card in the format.
I've understand why Mana Drain was banned when the format was created but the game (the way's decks are built) and the cards being played has changed so much today that I dont see an unbanning Mana Drain would make an issue. Most control decks play force of will and daze and counterbalance, where would mana drain fit with them?
Storm would love to have Mana Drain. Free mana for the next turn when they want to go off seems pretty good. High Tide and MUC would run it over Counterspell because again, its free mana for a combo deck.
Survival needed to get banned because cards like Necrotic Ooze and Vengevine. Survival was never a problem until those cards were printed because it never acted like a combo deck until then. It also made it very resilient to hate because it could tutor an answer and could run counter backup too. I didn't want it banned because I don't think it was too good but since it was banned the format has been really diverse which makes me think it was a good thing.
I for one cannot wait to play in a format where 4 Mind Twists are legal. That card is so ridiculous at turning someone's decent hand into a complete game loss the moment it resolves. Maybe they will unban Balance and Mana Vault while they're at it, the trio of cards WotC somehow decided to reprint in fourth edition despite them being restricted at the time.
Mind Twist really isn't that powerful. I would rather Dark Ritual into a Thoughtseize+Hymn to Tourach and get 3 cards instead of 2. The later you wait to Mind Twist the worse the card becomes. Land Tax should stay banned because it discourages land drops worse than Weathered Wayfarer which can cause games to drag on.
And getting rid of LED doesn't kill combo. There are still other ways to combo out, such as we have seen with high tide, and there's also LED-less dredge and whatnot. LED just puts combo over the top and gives you too much free mana IMO.
LED doesn't put combo over the top, it makes it viable in the format. There are a ton of hate cards that decks can run to screw over TES or Belcher and turn it into a bye. So banning LED doesn't make sense because those decks don't dominate the Top 8s or make people play decks to stop them. LED also doesn't make the decks so consistent that they win turn 2 all the time. LED enables a lot of good decks to be viable in the format which makes people play decks that are more than a bunch of cards that turn 90 degrees to win. So banning LED is not a good idea because it isn't hurting the format but actually making it a better format with more good decks than if it were banned.
Yeah I'm finding that Karakas just isn't that useful. I had a Emrakul hard-casted on me and realized that there was nothing I could do about it since he could replay it in his time walk turn. Which actually an O-ring wouldn't have helped either in that case really.
For SB, I played Meddling Mage and Phyrexian Revoker in the board and I don't think they are going to come out. They helped so much in a lot of match ups and I didn't play enough games against decks that would have made Submerge that good. I guess if Junk decks become really popular then I'll reconsider them.
Banning LED is an awful idea. Combo is part of what makes the format fun.
@ Hinotama Could you explain how not having LED and FoW would not "be so terrible"? Removing 1/3 of the archetypes of decks and the card that makes people have to think about their plays in case you are holding a FoW seems like you are making a bad version of Standard to me.
@Conical
Did you ever feel as though your blue count was too low with the Crusaders over the Sphinx?
I just played this on Saturday in Vestal with 80ish people. I ended up drawing my first 2 matches against a Green and Taxes-type deck and Enchantress, won my next 2 then dropped 2 in a row, once from being mana screwed and making some play mistakes against Tempo Thresh. I really like the deck but I play 1 Sphinx, 3 Vials, 1 Karakas, 1 Plains. I need to go to 2 Vials and 2 Plains and I'm not sure about Karakas. I like having a tutorable out to a cheated in Emrakul but that's about the only matchup it really helps in.
Game 1, Turn 1 on the draw staring down an untapped island or blue fetch. Depending on your hand, would you play around daze or:
Cast thoughtseize
Cast vial
Cast ritual into thoughtseize, then if no counters or if you took daze, cast hymn/2 drop
Cast ritual into 3 drop blindly
Cast mom
If you only had 2 fetch lands or a fetch and a wasteland/plains, would you chance the stifle to make one of the above plays?
I would say cast the Dark Rit and see what happens. If they Daze it, you don't really lose because they lose a card that helps them and Dark Rit will be dead in your hand in 2-3 turns(most likely). They also are denying themselves a resource which can start to get them behind against a deck like Deadguy. If they let it go through and you get a Thoughtseize plus 2-drop, you are way ahead for where they are.
I would risk the Stifle just because if you fall behind with Deadguy, you can easily punt the game trying to play cautiously and letting them get threats out that you just can't deal with.
It would be nice to see stax re-enter the format. Any ideas?
This deck has pretty much moved to the MWC thread. Most of the same ideas have gone that way but with so little real resource denial in the format now, its hard to build a true stax type deck.
Im trying to build this deck and I was wonder what would be more important to invest in first: Wasteland (I have Ghost Quarter) or Flooded Strand?
Wastelands. Ghost Quarter is counterproductive to the land denial package unless they have no basic lands in their deck at all. Strands aren't 100% needed because of Wayfarer but you still need blue fetches and white fetches to make it work but you still will be handicapped from not having the Strands but it won't make you lose a ton of matches from not having them but you might lose some you could win by being able to fetch a basic Plains instead of an island or Tundra.
Do I actually need anything against merfolk besides swords and my own counterspells? I feel like I could just out temp on the play. It is a hard matchup, but I also have mother of runes and fathom seer on my side.
Merfolk should be an easy matchup. If u resolve a vial, you win. You have Wayfarer to deal with Mutavaults and Fathom Seers to bring islands back you your hand. Mystics grab Jittes and Grunt is bigger than most of their creatures. I have lost games to Merfolk but I don't think I have ever lost a match to them.
I am thinking of using Misstep in the Spell Pierce slot. SP can feel dead in some games especially against heavy creature decks. Misstep will almost always be relevant. I'd have to test it though because I have won games at low life often because I need some time to get board position. If it helps keep their board cleaner or mine fuller for a turn or 2 it could be worth it. It really needs testing but I think this is a deck that could use it as a 2-of.
I wouldn't want to splash a color for 1 card. It makes it either a dead card in hand if you don't have the mana or your lands produce the wrong mana when you need it to. Adding more of a splashed colors cards makes the deck weaker at what it is supposed to do which is disrupt into a finisher and win quickly from that. Blue would open you up to running cards like Brainstorm but then you have to cut hand disruption which is not what the deck needs. Adding Vials also makes it into more of an aggro deck which then you need to ask yourself if it would just be better to run Goblins or Merfolk. Goblins will be much faster and Merfolk has Force of Will which means it will have a better combo match up since they can disrupt on their turn 0. The only color that can be splashed effectively is green and then you are better off playing Junk which is where your card choices would take you anyway.
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Burrenton Forge-tender
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Karakas
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Energy Flux
Storm would love to have Mana Drain. Free mana for the next turn when they want to go off seems pretty good. High Tide and MUC would run it over Counterspell because again, its free mana for a combo deck.
Survival needed to get banned because cards like Necrotic Ooze and Vengevine. Survival was never a problem until those cards were printed because it never acted like a combo deck until then. It also made it very resilient to hate because it could tutor an answer and could run counter backup too. I didn't want it banned because I don't think it was too good but since it was banned the format has been really diverse which makes me think it was a good thing.
Mind Twist really isn't that powerful. I would rather Dark Ritual into a Thoughtseize+Hymn to Tourach and get 3 cards instead of 2. The later you wait to Mind Twist the worse the card becomes. Land Tax should stay banned because it discourages land drops worse than Weathered Wayfarer which can cause games to drag on.
LED doesn't put combo over the top, it makes it viable in the format. There are a ton of hate cards that decks can run to screw over TES or Belcher and turn it into a bye. So banning LED doesn't make sense because those decks don't dominate the Top 8s or make people play decks to stop them. LED also doesn't make the decks so consistent that they win turn 2 all the time. LED enables a lot of good decks to be viable in the format which makes people play decks that are more than a bunch of cards that turn 90 degrees to win. So banning LED is not a good idea because it isn't hurting the format but actually making it a better format with more good decks than if it were banned.
For SB, I played Meddling Mage and Phyrexian Revoker in the board and I don't think they are going to come out. They helped so much in a lot of match ups and I didn't play enough games against decks that would have made Submerge that good. I guess if Junk decks become really popular then I'll reconsider them.
@ Hinotama Could you explain how not having LED and FoW would not "be so terrible"? Removing 1/3 of the archetypes of decks and the card that makes people have to think about their plays in case you are holding a FoW seems like you are making a bad version of Standard to me.
Did you ever feel as though your blue count was too low with the Crusaders over the Sphinx?
I just played this on Saturday in Vestal with 80ish people. I ended up drawing my first 2 matches against a Green and Taxes-type deck and Enchantress, won my next 2 then dropped 2 in a row, once from being mana screwed and making some play mistakes against Tempo Thresh. I really like the deck but I play 1 Sphinx, 3 Vials, 1 Karakas, 1 Plains. I need to go to 2 Vials and 2 Plains and I'm not sure about Karakas. I like having a tutorable out to a cheated in Emrakul but that's about the only matchup it really helps in.
I would say cast the Dark Rit and see what happens. If they Daze it, you don't really lose because they lose a card that helps them and Dark Rit will be dead in your hand in 2-3 turns(most likely). They also are denying themselves a resource which can start to get them behind against a deck like Deadguy. If they let it go through and you get a Thoughtseize plus 2-drop, you are way ahead for where they are.
I would risk the Stifle just because if you fall behind with Deadguy, you can easily punt the game trying to play cautiously and letting them get threats out that you just can't deal with.
This deck has pretty much moved to the MWC thread. Most of the same ideas have gone that way but with so little real resource denial in the format now, its hard to build a true stax type deck.
Wastelands. Ghost Quarter is counterproductive to the land denial package unless they have no basic lands in their deck at all. Strands aren't 100% needed because of Wayfarer but you still need blue fetches and white fetches to make it work but you still will be handicapped from not having the Strands but it won't make you lose a ton of matches from not having them but you might lose some you could win by being able to fetch a basic Plains instead of an island or Tundra.
Merfolk should be an easy matchup. If u resolve a vial, you win. You have Wayfarer to deal with Mutavaults and Fathom Seers to bring islands back you your hand. Mystics grab Jittes and Grunt is bigger than most of their creatures. I have lost games to Merfolk but I don't think I have ever lost a match to them.