Either way, if it wasn't clear for you, we're talking mechanics here.
I seem to remember a lot of Golgari and Jund wurms in some flavor of B/G. The only white one that springs to mind is Enlisted Wurm.
Nor can I think of a single white creature with deathtouch, if we're talking mechanically. Deathtouch is both black and green, whereas lifelink has been seen a lot in black lately.
I'm liking this list a hell of a lot better than Naya Lotus Angel after some playtesting. Might actually drop Harrow in favor of something like another removal spell though, to follow their lead. I don't like the idea of Doomblade maindecked with all the jund flying around, but maybe something like O-ring or JtN would fit. I'd hate to have it pulsed, though.
Sorry, I'm not having the same experience as you. First of all, I am not running Step Lynx as this deck is not aggro. Second I already have 4 Duress MD and I still can't beat a *good/smart* control player even after siding in 4 Tidehollow Sculler (However, I do get lucky sometimes and screw them over with this constant disruption). Also, I took Stags out of the SB exactly because they are not effective against control. I believe I already mentioned this but... 5CC does NOT have creature counters. It does, however, run PtE, Lightning Bolt and DoJ as MD removal rendering Stags absolutely worthless.
I am now testing Identity Crisis (2 in MD) to see if it fares well against Control. Basically, get it in hand, Drop a BSA, wait for controly guy to DoJ on their turn and then if they don't have an Island + another land untapped, I win the game? Dunno, got to test it.
Yeah, don't tell me what the deck is or isn't. You're not the one who designed it. It started out as a midrange deck that could shift toward anti-control or anti-aggro depending on what you put in the 1cc spot. Since it looks like FNMs will be all Vamps for a while, and competitive events look to be mostly Jund for now, it needs to be able to outrace aggro or force early unfavorable blocks. This means the 1cc drop of choice is steppe lynx, which either does the same thing as duress by getting rid of a removal spell, or blocks or does some damage on its own. Against control it can win a game by itself off of fetches, forcing them to waste a removal spell on a freaking steppe lynx. It's simply more versatile than Duress is until control has a stronger showing. And what makes you think Sculler is going to help against control anyway? You get a removal spell, they spend another to get it back. You'd be better off running Duress + some other threat than sculler.
So what 5cc variants are you seeing? The one with the fetch-reliant manabases or the tri-land/exotic orchard mana bases? The first can be screwed by careful applications of pithing needle, (name scalding tarn or catacombs), the second should be pretty easily outraced, especially after siding in some more threats.
QFT, this guy really understands the situation well. Control decks (Which I predict will be ruling the metagame soon) are running 4 X Negates and 2 X Mindbreak Traps as MD permission; nothing else, hence Summoning Trap is a 6 Mana Spell (That WILL get countered, unlike your creature spells) that puts a creature into play... b-a-d.
In any case I really wish this deck had potential against Control but it doesn't.
Also, on a side note. This deck went through many transition. In the beginning, it had 3 X Emerial Angel and 2 X Rampaging Baloths. Now however, we only have 3 X Obs as Landfall creatures (and maybe Step Lynx but this is controversial). So I think that this deck has evolved (or devolved, lol) into something that isn't a Landfall deck. IMO, this is has Rock as Rock can get. All this to say the following: In my many testing sessions with this deck (See original version in OP), the card that fared the least well was Harrow (Even with all those Landfall creatures) because with only 24 lands (8 fetches which thin lands), it was almost impossible to play Harrow + having OB, Emeria or Baloths on the board because of lack of mana do cast Harrow in response to their removal spells (Please don't argue that Cobras let you do that in a single turn because it ALWAYS gets removed). Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that since there is only OB has a Landfall guy, Harrow is not necessary anymore since it only helps with OB (which if he sticks to the board you win anyways) and KotR (only a little bit). It can also accel for a single extra land which Ramping Growth does a lot better. Also, against Control decks, Harrow gets countered which make you lose the game. My two cents, discuss away.
On another note, Step Lynx shouldn't be included in the list since it is an aggro card and fundamentally, I believe, the deck tries to be control. The deck shouldn't be split between Control and Aggro cards. The direction the deck wants to go in should be examined more closely and build accordingly.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that your opponent doesn't need to be playing counterspells to make Summoning Trap awesome? It's like running 4 extra copies of Baneslayer/Ob/Baloth with flash for one more mana. In a deck with so many stupid midgame threats that are already must-answers on their own, it's crazy.
I guess the deck to beat now is pretty much Jund Aggro, and I think this deck is a good matchup for it.
Or you turn over land, land, harrow, lotus cobra, vampire nighthawk, land, summoning trap.
Congrats, 6 mana for an instant speed vampire nighthawk. 6 mana for the occasional instant speed Baneslayer really isn't an "amazing benefit" that's worth really bad inconsistency.
Edit: What that guy said above. Enlisted Worm is better in like every way, and I think there are far stronger options for a GWB deck anyway.
Let's do some math here.
When I cast ST, I'm going to have about 46-48 cards left in my library. I'm running close to 15 threats I wouldn't mind paying 6 for at instant speed (KotR, BSA, Ob, Baloths, and Iona). That means roughly 1/3 cards left in my deck are threats. Lets round up to 1/4 to be generous, and to account for ones I might have already drawn.
The chances of not seeing one of those cards are (3/4)^7 = 13 percent. The chances of cascading into something comparatively useless with an Enlisted Wurm is noticably higher (even if you only have like 2-3 cards you don't want to see, it's about 20%), since a vanilla 5/5 that gets blocked all day by Baneslayer and a Putrid Leech is kind of a waste of 6 mana. I'd still happily pay 6 mana for Ob or Baneslayer though, especially at instant speed.
EDIT: Looks like I was right, meta is shaping up to be very aggro-heavy. It looks like Grixis Cruel Control will be the natural enemy of Jund, but this deck should play against it pretty well. I'm worried about them cascading into Pulses and Terminates though, I guess I might have to rethink Vines for that matchup. Trap->Iona naming black if they don't have a Terminate open will end the game against Jund, so maybe another Iona or two in the side would be good.
Now that I have a better idea of the early meta will be some more tweaks can be made. I think we can pretty much rule out maindeck Duress until there's a bigger control presence. Lynx has gotta be there to make opponent either die more quickly or get bluffed into unfavorable blocks.
Well after some more testing today (after finally getting 4 cobras to complete the deck) at the first T2 tournament, I think it's pretty obvious that this deck is good against most midrange decks/aggro, etc... However, it simply loses to the new 4cc/5cc control decks (seeming to be dominant in the new metagame) that simply run too much removal for this deck to be effective, hence it is more of a casual then competitive deck.
I build this 600$ monstrosity for nothing and now I have to go back to the drawing board.
Are you really having that much trouble against 4 and 5cc variants? Game 1 they waste the removal on Steppe Lynx and Cobra, and game 2 you side out one of your removal spells for Duress. Hell, I've even tried bringing out Traps for Stag just to have an endless supply of threats. I'm not really having significant issues against neo4/5cc aside from the usual 'WHY DOES THIS CONTROL PLAYER STILL HAVE ANSWERS IN HIS HAND FFFFFFFF' frustration that always comes with playing against control decks.
I just got back from FNM and can't believe I lost with this deck against a crappy MBC deck running uncommons.... One thing I learned is this deck can't deal with Gatekeeper of Malakir and Mindsludge. Any idea for a way to combat these cards?
It shouldn't be too hard to deal with both by dumping your hand before turn 5. MBC doesn't have enough mass removal to punish overextension. Duress sided in helps too.
Deathmark is good, but you'll mostly just replace P2E with it anyway, which can kill anything DM can, but at instant speed. Yes they get a land... but I think this deck should usually be so far ahead mana-wise it doesn't matter if we give them 1-2 lands a game. Even if I cast all 4 paths and give them 4 lands, we got the WQ after SB to do some destruction. What we really need is some red hate.
Which leaves the last 4 slots.
Grazing Gladehart - *ok* imo, but as I stated earlier I think its subpar for constructed (i've posted decks using it in mono-green Lf, however). RDW does pose a threat, but maybe we can find a better solution?
Celestial Purge - can stop any of there x/1 tramplers, and early on. However, so could any first strike creature... Knight of the White Orchid - the WW mana cost is a little intensive for our supposedly early game 2 drop, but its an option. I wouldn't count on ever triggering his ability, so maybe White Knight would be a better option if you wanna go WW
However I guess the x/1 trample, sac guys aren't our biggest problems, as p2e or CP would be perfect answers then. Now what we have to worry about is instants... which i suppose the gladehart could do well against. Or perhaps Silence? Ick... Duress, however, is already in the SB...
I guess if RDW proves to be an issue, I'll have to at least test Grazing Gladehart.
I haven't really tested against RDW using Gladeheart so there probably is a better solution. I would have thought that Baneslayer was enough, but it games you can't get it out it's pretty bad.
When you're running so many fetch lands anyway, I think Lotus Cobra outshines Noble Hierarch. If you just don't want to buy the cobra, I think birds of paradise is a better pick as it fixes black as well.
Grazing Gladehart is a card I liked a lot in limited, but in constructed I think its lacking. When you have the option of dropping a turn 3 BSA (especially with lotus cobra), what good is the gladehart really? I'd also up the count on ob and drop the baloths as Ob Nixilis is just a power house, whereas the baloths are so-so.
I'm actually thinking of adding Gladeheart to the SB to deal with hyperagressive decks like RDW. I played a pretty good RDW build that was hard to go up against if I couldn't stick a Baneslayer.
I believe that for Competitive decks, Acidic Slime is the clear choice over Queller since it has an immediate affect on the board and still produces a 2/2 Deathtouch body that can potentially trade with another creature which is awesome because your opponent will hesitate on using removal on him effectively 2 for 1ing himself and this creates an awkward situation for him because it will be hard to attack you afterward not wanting to swing into the slime.
While for Queller, you tap out, drop him on the board, he does absolutely nothing when he arrives, then eats removal in the face and you just wasted your turn. In the event that your opponent is ahead on the board, Queller is simply awful if you plan on naming Land (which you will probably do most of the time) and also, why would you want to sacrifice your own Lands in a Landfall deck!?!
My two cents on Queller.
You obviously haven't played with it.
Queller alone is going to end games. Thanks to Harrow and Cobra, your lands are going to matter more than your opponent's, and keeping them on the same amount of lands is wonderful. Acidic Slime merely sets them back a turn once and then either dies or gets flown over. World Queller can block smaller creatures and live, can't be Lightning Bolted, and provides layers upon layers of versatility depending on the circumstances. Not to mention he beats for 4 instead of 2. '
If I drop Queller turn 3 or even 4, it means bad things for my opponent because:
1) My 4/4 will likely be able to block anything they have on the board at that point, and if they're not getting more lands they had better be able to deliver a big enough threat to make me sweat with the 3-4 lands they have. (And that's just until they start missing land drops!) Most decks can't accomplish this.
2) If they want to keep their lands, they have to remove it that turn. If they don't have it they might not have the mana to later down the road. Even if they CAN remove it, it doesn't stop me from playing a similar 5cc threat next turn anyway. Even if they CAN'T remove it, Queller itself doesn't noticably slow me down because I can still easily hit 5 mana a turn even if I am sacrificing lands.
3) God forbid they're playing some sort of artifact or enchantment when it hits the board. It lets me hit an Oblivion Ring, a Sculler, a Jace, or an Ascension without wasting a Pulse.
Can they just remove it and continue as normal? Sure, but that's why the deck isn't built around Queller, it's just another trick in the arsenal against other midrange decks or control decks.
I got a question about Quest for the Gravelord and Vampire Hexmage. Say I have a quest out with 3 counters on it. I sacrifice it to make a 5/5 token. What happens when the other guy sacs Hexmage in response? Does the ability trigger anyway since it is already on the stack, does it stay in play with 1 counter from Hexmage, or does it go to the graveyard and I get nothing?
Also, same scenario but this time Quest has 2 Counters on it, Hexmage this time is sacraficed to remove all counters. Can I then respond by removing 3 counters to make a 5/5 token? (2 previous counters and 1 from Hexmage)
First case: He can sac it in response if he wants to, but he can't target the Quest since it's already in your graveyard at that point because sacrificing it is part of the cost.
Second case: If your opponent is that dumb, yes, it will get the third counter and you can then sacrifice it in response.
Thoughts on what to do vs. Mill? Some people may dismiss it as being underpowered, but I've been watching the thread. Archive Trap (often twincasted) and Mind Funeral are both beatings against us, as the two things we do most are search and pull lands out of our library.
I thought about this, and if mill ever gets popular enough to actually side against, bring in 4 Bloodghast.
Mill has too many hosers to worry about it being viable.
How did ya fair in that tournament? Have you figured out what works best in the Sideboard?
I'm assuming against vamps Great Sable Stag works as long as they stay on the ground, and path the lord/any fliers?
I won. Vamps were abundant but played wrong. Game 2 I find it's better to rely on Lynxes to draw their removal and block and get a Baneslayer out. Leave Nocturnus alive so you can see when he's about to draw into removal, and either turn it into a race (you'll win with Baneslayer) or path/pulse their subordinates. I didn't even need the Stag, but I did bring him in.
Game 1 I just held back Lynxes to block or made a Cobra/Lacerator trade that they obviously didn't expect.
For my shop I went with
4 Duress
4 Stag
3 World Queller
4 Deathmark
Queller came in against U/W control in hopes to stick him turn 3 and keep my opponent on a small number of lands. Unfortunately I didn't have a U/W matchup so I have no idea how well that was going to work. 4 deathmarks replaced Path against any deck that relied heavily on Baneslayer. Duress and Stag against CC, Stag against Vamps.
I'm interested in the Acidic Slime most from your list... definitely worth some playtesting I'd wager
Ostrakon: I'm also wondering whether you run any Sunpetal Grove? I can see some of the downfalls... mainly less plains/forest for KotR. Are you hitting your lands fine with just 8 for, 5 pla, 3 swa?
For 5cc I'd rather have Queller since he's a bigger numerical threat and he leads to some nicely asymmetrical sitations (name planeswalker, artifact to get rid of a sculler, enchantment to make a Luminarch player weep.) But I like the line of thinking, it's definitely worth looking at.
And my manabase was fine, although it's now 7 for, 5 plains, 4 swamps in addition to the fetches. I don't think I've ever had problems finding my mana between fetches, cobra, and harrow.
My initial impression is that it looks too slow, and that you might be running too many creatures for it. There are a lot of cards that you just seemed to throw in because they're good G/W cards like the pridemage or river boa. You're also playing 8 fetches that are completely irrelevant when KotR isn't on the board.
Yes, Baneslayer is worth it. If you have plains you should probably be running her.
I mean, dauntless escort is pretty meh no matter how you slice it unless your opponent is going to DoJ or you're going to lose a lot of creatures to Fallout or whatever, which isn't going to be in every matchup. I think Escort is really more of a sideboard card unless you have a very control-heavy metagame.
Unless, of course, you're running your own DoJes to make it into a Plague Wind, which I think is a better way to go for a midrange deck.
So you beat the kid thanks to a judge error? Ah well he deserved it if he was bragging. I hate braggers (not just in Magic). Good job
I was beating his (and everyone elses') pants off anyway. I had what looked like a pretty meh pool, but I built a very removal-heavy tempo-screw U/R deck out of it. No bomb rares but I got 2 Whiplash traps, 2 Windriders, an Into the Roil, and enough red removal to seriously screw pretty much every creature in the set.
The kid's deck pretty much relied on Ob almost entirely, and a bunch of really really mediocre creature. I had a way to deal with it both games (Rite to clonekill it, and a kicked lightning burst for game 2) and he just couldn't cope with it. It didn't help that he seemed to be aggressively mulliganing into it.
I seem to remember a lot of Golgari and Jund wurms in some flavor of B/G. The only white one that springs to mind is Enlisted Wurm.
Nor can I think of a single white creature with deathtouch, if we're talking mechanically. Deathtouch is both black and green, whereas lifelink has been seen a lot in black lately.
Yeah, don't tell me what the deck is or isn't. You're not the one who designed it. It started out as a midrange deck that could shift toward anti-control or anti-aggro depending on what you put in the 1cc spot. Since it looks like FNMs will be all Vamps for a while, and competitive events look to be mostly Jund for now, it needs to be able to outrace aggro or force early unfavorable blocks. This means the 1cc drop of choice is steppe lynx, which either does the same thing as duress by getting rid of a removal spell, or blocks or does some damage on its own. Against control it can win a game by itself off of fetches, forcing them to waste a removal spell on a freaking steppe lynx. It's simply more versatile than Duress is until control has a stronger showing. And what makes you think Sculler is going to help against control anyway? You get a removal spell, they spend another to get it back. You'd be better off running Duress + some other threat than sculler.
So what 5cc variants are you seeing? The one with the fetch-reliant manabases or the tri-land/exotic orchard mana bases? The first can be screwed by careful applications of pithing needle, (name scalding tarn or catacombs), the second should be pretty easily outraced, especially after siding in some more threats.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that your opponent doesn't need to be playing counterspells to make Summoning Trap awesome? It's like running 4 extra copies of Baneslayer/Ob/Baloth with flash for one more mana. In a deck with so many stupid midgame threats that are already must-answers on their own, it's crazy.
I guess the deck to beat now is pretty much Jund Aggro, and I think this deck is a good matchup for it.
Let's do some math here.
When I cast ST, I'm going to have about 46-48 cards left in my library. I'm running close to 15 threats I wouldn't mind paying 6 for at instant speed (KotR, BSA, Ob, Baloths, and Iona). That means roughly 1/3 cards left in my deck are threats. Lets round up to 1/4 to be generous, and to account for ones I might have already drawn.
The chances of not seeing one of those cards are (3/4)^7 = 13 percent. The chances of cascading into something comparatively useless with an Enlisted Wurm is noticably higher (even if you only have like 2-3 cards you don't want to see, it's about 20%), since a vanilla 5/5 that gets blocked all day by Baneslayer and a Putrid Leech is kind of a waste of 6 mana. I'd still happily pay 6 mana for Ob or Baneslayer though, especially at instant speed.
EDIT: Looks like I was right, meta is shaping up to be very aggro-heavy. It looks like Grixis Cruel Control will be the natural enemy of Jund, but this deck should play against it pretty well. I'm worried about them cascading into Pulses and Terminates though, I guess I might have to rethink Vines for that matchup. Trap->Iona naming black if they don't have a Terminate open will end the game against Jund, so maybe another Iona or two in the side would be good.
Now that I have a better idea of the early meta will be some more tweaks can be made. I think we can pretty much rule out maindeck Duress until there's a bigger control presence. Lynx has gotta be there to make opponent either die more quickly or get bluffed into unfavorable blocks.
Are you really having that much trouble against 4 and 5cc variants? Game 1 they waste the removal on Steppe Lynx and Cobra, and game 2 you side out one of your removal spells for Duress. Hell, I've even tried bringing out Traps for Stag just to have an endless supply of threats. I'm not really having significant issues against neo4/5cc aside from the usual 'WHY DOES THIS CONTROL PLAYER STILL HAVE ANSWERS IN HIS HAND FFFFFFFF' frustration that always comes with playing against control decks.
It shouldn't be too hard to deal with both by dumping your hand before turn 5. MBC doesn't have enough mass removal to punish overextension. Duress sided in helps too.
MBC hasn't given me any trouble in testing.
I haven't really tested against RDW using Gladeheart so there probably is a better solution. I would have thought that Baneslayer was enough, but it games you can't get it out it's pretty bad.
I'm actually thinking of adding Gladeheart to the SB to deal with hyperagressive decks like RDW. I played a pretty good RDW build that was hard to go up against if I couldn't stick a Baneslayer.
You obviously haven't played with it.
Queller alone is going to end games. Thanks to Harrow and Cobra, your lands are going to matter more than your opponent's, and keeping them on the same amount of lands is wonderful. Acidic Slime merely sets them back a turn once and then either dies or gets flown over. World Queller can block smaller creatures and live, can't be Lightning Bolted, and provides layers upon layers of versatility depending on the circumstances. Not to mention he beats for 4 instead of 2. '
If I drop Queller turn 3 or even 4, it means bad things for my opponent because:
1) My 4/4 will likely be able to block anything they have on the board at that point, and if they're not getting more lands they had better be able to deliver a big enough threat to make me sweat with the 3-4 lands they have. (And that's just until they start missing land drops!) Most decks can't accomplish this.
2) If they want to keep their lands, they have to remove it that turn. If they don't have it they might not have the mana to later down the road. Even if they CAN remove it, it doesn't stop me from playing a similar 5cc threat next turn anyway. Even if they CAN'T remove it, Queller itself doesn't noticably slow me down because I can still easily hit 5 mana a turn even if I am sacrificing lands.
3) God forbid they're playing some sort of artifact or enchantment when it hits the board. It lets me hit an Oblivion Ring, a Sculler, a Jace, or an Ascension without wasting a Pulse.
Can they just remove it and continue as normal? Sure, but that's why the deck isn't built around Queller, it's just another trick in the arsenal against other midrange decks or control decks.
First case: He can sac it in response if he wants to, but he can't target the Quest since it's already in your graveyard at that point because sacrificing it is part of the cost.
Second case: If your opponent is that dumb, yes, it will get the third counter and you can then sacrifice it in response.
It's been a prevention effect for as long as I can remember.
Flamebreak killed Silver Knight, etc.
I thought about this, and if mill ever gets popular enough to actually side against, bring in 4 Bloodghast.
Mill has too many hosers to worry about it being viable.
Aside from the Sunpetal groves this is pretty much my decklist. Just won a box on Saturday with it.
I won. Vamps were abundant but played wrong. Game 2 I find it's better to rely on Lynxes to draw their removal and block and get a Baneslayer out. Leave Nocturnus alive so you can see when he's about to draw into removal, and either turn it into a race (you'll win with Baneslayer) or path/pulse their subordinates. I didn't even need the Stag, but I did bring him in.
Game 1 I just held back Lynxes to block or made a Cobra/Lacerator trade that they obviously didn't expect.
For my shop I went with
4 Duress
4 Stag
3 World Queller
4 Deathmark
Queller came in against U/W control in hopes to stick him turn 3 and keep my opponent on a small number of lands. Unfortunately I didn't have a U/W matchup so I have no idea how well that was going to work. 4 deathmarks replaced Path against any deck that relied heavily on Baneslayer. Duress and Stag against CC, Stag against Vamps.
For 5cc I'd rather have Queller since he's a bigger numerical threat and he leads to some nicely asymmetrical sitations (name planeswalker, artifact to get rid of a sculler, enchantment to make a Luminarch player weep.) But I like the line of thinking, it's definitely worth looking at.
And my manabase was fine, although it's now 7 for, 5 plains, 4 swamps in addition to the fetches. I don't think I've ever had problems finding my mana between fetches, cobra, and harrow.
Yes, Baneslayer is worth it. If you have plains you should probably be running her.
I mean, dauntless escort is pretty meh no matter how you slice it unless your opponent is going to DoJ or you're going to lose a lot of creatures to Fallout or whatever, which isn't going to be in every matchup. I think Escort is really more of a sideboard card unless you have a very control-heavy metagame.
Unless, of course, you're running your own DoJes to make it into a Plague Wind, which I think is a better way to go for a midrange deck.
I was beating his (and everyone elses') pants off anyway. I had what looked like a pretty meh pool, but I built a very removal-heavy tempo-screw U/R deck out of it. No bomb rares but I got 2 Whiplash traps, 2 Windriders, an Into the Roil, and enough red removal to seriously screw pretty much every creature in the set.
The kid's deck pretty much relied on Ob almost entirely, and a bunch of really really mediocre creature. I had a way to deal with it both games (Rite to clonekill it, and a kicked lightning burst for game 2) and he just couldn't cope with it. It didn't help that he seemed to be aggressively mulliganing into it.