Ok, so heres the situation: My opponent attack with a Watchwolf and in response I play Shining Shoal and remove a Yosei and redirect 6 damage to my opponent (which would have killed him). He says that I can only redirect 3 damage becuase thats what was prevented, but I say that Shining Shoal redirects the next X damage, X being 6. What Id like to know is does the Shoal redirect the damage prevented or the amount of damage paid for in X?
Im sorry if this question has been answered/is stupid, but thanks anyways.
Okay, so several people (you know who you are) have been claiming that there is no online community that knows who R_E and the spoiler is. I now present to you, after minutes of frantic searching, this very incomplete list of forums that have a discussion on rumors and/or R_E:
MTGSalvation MTGNews Pojo Starcity Games Misetings Brainburst, yes, the 'discussing spoilers will get you banned' Brainburst has a discussion on the suit Official WotC boards Phyrexia
Make sure you take three things into account:
1 This list is far from complete, as there are many smaller sites and foreign sites that can be added to the list that I just didnt look for.
2 Most people on the threads are morons and have no idea what is really going on.
3 ~80% of players are casual, so they could care less about spoilers or even MTG.com previews.
Heres an interesting and good comparison to what has gone down in recent weeks:
Quote from kotaku.com »
Thankfully, Gamasutra got to the Eurogamer links before stories about God of War 2, Gran Turismo 4 Online Edition and information about Killzone PSP were replaced with the following: “The information that previously appeared here has been removed under the threat of legal action from Sony Computer Entertainment Europe.”
The stories allegedly came from “leaked marketing documentation” and indicated that Kratos is back and God of War 2 will be released stateside in February 2007 for the PlayStation 2 with a European release soon to follow. According to the documents, Gran Turismo 4 Online Edition will be released in the second quarter of this year and feature six player online play, worldwide rankings and replay upload options. The usual fleet of cars will be there, this time around 700 vehicles with 50 tracks to race on. We mentioned the Killzone details earlier this morning.
So for those who arent hip to the scene, someone apparently stole documents from a Sony of Europe meeting and leaked them to a site on the interweb. After many juicy details were obtained, Sony of Europe told the site to take down the news (confirming it, at the same time) or it would take legal action. The site took it down.
Now I think this is the best paralell for what has happened here, except Sony asked them to take it down first. Granted Wizards did the same thing with their DMCA complaint, but that was after they filed suit againt R_E. Leaks like that happen often in the video game industry but to my best knowledge no one has ever been preemptively sued like R_E was.
If you drive down the same stretch of road at 15 miles per hour over the speed limit for years is that a valid defense when you finally get a ticket? No.
Id hate to sound like an example Nazi, but the difference is that every time you go down that street 15 mph over the speed limit, the same cop is watching you and he never says anything. What is the cop's rationale to give you a ticket now after letting you speed for years?
Quote from FuturameMeetsMagic »
The world will be ruined when money is put above Morality!
But your premise is that a company should do ANYTHING it can to keep even ONE customer. Of course I know that customer satisfaction is everything to a business. But your ignoring the conflict that your premises initiates. I’m a customer of Magic too, and I think that shutting down unofficial spoilers is good, and I am boycotting all pre-releases until they do. You’re a customer that thinks Wizards is evil because they choseto protect their copyrights using heavy handed legal tactics. Now if your premises that every single customer counts is to be upheld, what should Wizards do?
There must have been some kind of misinterpretation here becuase Im not trying to say that a company needs to do anything to keep one customer happy, my point is that one unhappy customer soon becomes two and so on. There is never just one disgruntled customer.
Wizards will side with the majority.
Of course, and the majority could care less about this whole situation.
If destroying the life of 1 man will save 1 wholesalers business, then they will probably do it.
Sadly this is too true.
Quote from Talen Lee »
Sapph, yeah, but you have to remember, the tournament-playing Magic scene is barely 20% of the audience. If that.
Yes, but it is that 20% that spends $100 on a playset of Overgrown Tombs or religiously attends PTQs.
And just as an aside about the number of people who care about the spoiler, when I went to the GP prerelease, I talked with 6 different players who read the spoiler and I also overheard 2 judges talking about the R_E situation (they sided with R_E, btw). I would really like to know how many people actually read the spoiler, it would be an interesting survey.
To say there is nothing illegal about passing on information you assume to have been obtained illegally and you know to be protected by copyright (look at the bottom of the playtest cards) is just ignorant. And being ignorant of the law does not exempt you from it. Just because something is being reported as news does not mean all copyright and trade-secret laws are nullified. The fake-card argument holds no water either.
Ok here is the scenario… I give Random a bag of green leafy substance, and tell him it is marijuana. He looks at it and thinks it might not be real, but he can’t really tell. So he then goes and sells it to someone. Do you think that what he did was illegal? You can be arrested for selling fake drugs just as quick as you can for the real stuff. Just because something may or may not be real does not protect someone from the law. You can’t say I thought it was fake so I should be exempt from the law.
I dont know if you saw the thread with the playtest cards, but from your above statment, I will assume you did not. R_E received the cards via an anonymous IM, after which the sender block him and said nothing about the cards. What with Photoshop around nowadays, it is very easy to fake something like that and I do remember most people in the thread dismissing them as fake. R_E had no knowledge of the sender or the cards' authenticity. And what if the cards were indeed fake? We would not be having this conversation now and no one would be saying that what he did was wrong.
Now if R_E had said 'These are from a reliable source, he told me they are from Time Spiral, and he stole them from R&D', I would be totally with Wizards, as he would have knowingly passed along illegally obtained information, but those were not the circumstances.
And your drug example holds no weight in comparison to what R_E did. No one told him 'here take these cards, they may be real' nor did he try to pass them off as real nor did he sell them (and I dont want to get into another argument about his site).
This is just pure nonsense. Your acting as if these companies should lose money just to keep customers. If a company does something to protect itself, that is much better than keeping customers but not making profit. To a company making MONEY is the most important thing, not keeping customers as you believe.
There is this little known thing called capitalism, love it or hate it, that is how America works. No matter what reviews a product gets, it is ultimately the consumer who decides the success of the product. Obviously you have no knowledge of business, because the first thing you learn is keep your customers happy, you can make no money without any content customers that are willing to buy your product. Disgruntled customers, especially formerly loyal customers like the ones on this board, lead to bad word of mouth, and there is nothing worse for a business.
Heres an example for you. Recently a Walgreens opened up literally right across the street from a privately owned pharmacy. Many people in the neighborhood were angered by their obviously attempted strongarm tactics. Even though Walgreens is the better store, most people still shop at the privately owned pharmacy. Is Walgreens making money? Yes. Is Walgreens making as much money as it would have if it had not angered everyone in the neighborhood? Absolutely not.
His leaking of the TS playtest cards (and we all know that is what this case is really about) had nothing illegal about it. There is nothing illegal about passing on unconfirmed and unknown information, that is in fact the definition of news and/or rumors. Even though they were copyrighted, they could have easily been faked. R_E did not willingly or knowingly break copyright law.
@anyone who thinks that protesting Wizards/Hasbro will have no effect
It is that attitude which is why no one stands up for what they believe in anymore and I applaud anyone who has the integrity to not buy something from a company becuase of its shady business practices. Like Ive stated plenty of times, to a company the customer is more important than anything and losing one customer is losing one too many. One dissatified customer tells a potential customer to stay away and the chain continues. This will not end well for Wizards.
@anyone who thinks Wizards doesnt care about MTGS users
You act like those who actively post here are the only ones that read the spoiler. Just stop. For every person that is on the site at any given time there are two+ guests-be they lurkers who just want to read the spoiler or people who wouldnt be caught dead with an account here. Then include the numerous amounts of people at smaller boards or foreign boards who have the spoiler and I guaruntee you that the "spoiler community" is in the hundreds of thousands. Edit: Forget those who register and dont actually post until something like this happens.
[/font]I'm just trying to see if you would really demand that Wizards write R_E a formal C&D letter before suing, when their dislike of leaks is well-known in the online Magic community, where R_E is being described as a pillar.
[FONT=Courier New]Well, according to R_E, he never received any sort of cease and decist, that was the least Wizards could have done before suing him.[/FONT]
And...you dispute some of those statements...? Or not?[FONT=Courier New]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]My point was just to show how one sided the article was. Maro gave no explanation as to how leaks lose them money, no actual account of any players who actually dislike leaks (and for one who dislikes them Im sure there are two that enjoys them), and no mention of how the spoiler essentially gives them loads of free marketing. [/FONT]
Oh please. A boycott is not going to be enough to stop the Hasbro juggernaut. I remember I tried boycotting Disney after the Anaheim Angels beat the Yankees in 2002. It didn't go very well. Never boycott big companies.
"Get up, a white person wants this seat." "Okay, sorry, Ill go to the back." And like that, Rosa Parks gets up, sits in the back of the bus, and segregation continues well into the 21st century.
Granted, this case is not of the same magnitude, but I for one will not be buying any Wizards products. Seriously, you people need to take Business 101, losing one customer is one too many, no matter how big a corporation you are.
Wizards wasn't very nice about the way they handled the suit, no doubt. Would you have been happier if they'd warned RE first? Does Maro's column bad-mouthing leaks suffice? What about the article warning that discussing unreleased cards is illegal?
Yeah, so? That hardly constitues a warning to R_E, who says he even read either of those articles?
Both articles are poorly written nonetheless, they were like two children continuing to argue even after their opponents have walked away, with no explanation of anything to boot. "Leaks are not nice cause they ruin the suprise...and they hurt players...and loose us money!"
And in reading Maro's article, I found this
Quote from Maro »
My comments today are directed at the sources of the leaks, not the press that reports them.
To shape the discussion and discredit the opposing voices is a standard formula used in the court of public opinion.
Make no mistake, some of what we are seeing here is exactly that.
It is Spin pure and simple.
Keep drumming the point that RE committed a crime.
keep repeating that Wizards is well within it's rights to act as it has.
Attempt to discredit those who disagree and are pointing out these tactics as conspiracy theorists.
Continue to drive the point that Wizards/Hasbro are so big and the Magic community is so much more then what happens here that any dissent by people here will not amount to a blip on the screen and thus is not worth the effort.
That he(RE) is up against a Billion dollar a year plus corporation and it is futile for him to continue to fight.
Repeatedly fly the balloon that all RE has to do is give up his sources and all this will go away like MAGIC.
This is their real goal. To quickly and inexpensively nail whoever is leaking the information.
You rarely see this kind of spin oputside of polital campaigns at least not this first hand.
I think Wizards/Hasbro is wrong.
They are wrong in their approach to their problem of an information leak.
I think that they are wrong to try to fiancially bankrupt a man who's actions so many of their loyal fans eagerly encouraged and supported.
I think that they are wrong in underestimating the damage to their game these actions are causing. I, for one, will not be purchasing any products made by their company again.
and finally I think this embarrassing attempt to spin this debacle only shows how out of touch they are with their fans.
Simply because they have the legal right to do something does not make it the right thing to do. Had they approached this problem of theirs a different way they would not need to engage in damage control now.
Wow. *stands up a slow claps* That is one of the most sensible things Ive read in this entire thread. You hit the nail on the head with every one of your points.
Ignoring all legal mumbo jumbo being thrown around, Wizards is acting like Grade A aholes in this case. They are going after a man who is a blue collar worker, a man who has in no way shape of form harmed Wizards; if anything, his leaks have increased sales [at least for me, and I doubt I am alone] and he has done more for the online Magic community than any Wizards employee can possibly do [I know I visited 'News before MTG.com]. So Wizards repsonds by trying to destroy his financial future in one fell swoop? R_E is not Nintendo, and Wizards is just wrong to treat him like that. Wizards should worry more about tightening their security and less about ruining a man's life.
Simply put, every single Magic player should be ashamed by the way Wizards is handling this case.
Quote from MillMaster »
Do you really expect us to believe that you follow this same doctrine for every product you consume in your life? What kind of car do you drive, what kind of clothes do you wear? What kind of food do you eat, hell.. what web-browser are you using? Almost every company out there has probably used tactics like these (or worse in most cases) to protect its products and investments. I just dont buy this as an honest argument.
Well, its does show a lot about one's integrity when they refuse to purchase a company's products based on business practices, I for example havent eaten Taco Bell in years because of the way they treat their laborers, and I sure as hell wont be buying any Wizards or Hasbro products for long time.
Ah, it's simply because I forgot (somehow, I go crazy sometimes. ) to list Public Enemy, De La Soul, and Run DMC, I give plenty dap to the old school, and I'm a big NWA fan, no doubt. And silly me, I forgot the Fugees and the Mitchell Brothers as well! I must've written it pretty quickly on the fly.
So my revised list...
D12 Non-Phixion D-Block The Beastie Boys Hieroglyphics Mobb Deep The Mitchell Brothers The Fugees Outkast Public Enemy De La Soul Run DMC NWA
...simply shows the difference, more or less, is your lacking in the underground, which you should give a looksee sometime for the hell of it. Non-Phixion, Hieroglyphics, the Def Jux crew, and KMD come highly recommended.
Also, I hope you weren't implying the ones I listed are more orientated with bling or such rap, since absolutely none of them are really, except maybe Mobb Deep or D-Block, but even then, no, not really, they're more gangster along the lines of NWA. There aren't many bling rap groups in existence to tell the truth, save The Inc., Ruff Ryders, and G-Unit...
Nothing really to get into an arguement about.
Okay, its all good. If you recommend it, then it must be good; Ill give them a shot.
And dont worry, the bling blang comment was just a joke about the only type of rap music that gets listened to in my neighborhood, a mostly white neighborhood mind you.
And do you mean best artists ever, or literally groups, not single artists? If you mean groups...
D12 Non-Phixion D-Block The Beastie Boys Hieroglyphics Mobb Deep Outkast
I must disagree with this highly (see that, not just disagreeing, but disagreeing highly). Public Enemy A Tribe Called Quest Eric B. and Rakim NWA Beastie Boys De La Soul and of course you cannot go without mentioning Run DMC
As you can see my preference lies mainly in old school. Kids these days with their hoes and thier bling blang. But I dont want to get into an argument with TFE about rap...Ive seen what he does to people when they get him angry...:o
Quote from eyeclops »
Where the reggae love?
You want reggae love? You got it! Bob Marley Dreadlocks and smoking weed Jamaica Cool Runnings the Musical
Enough reggae love for ya? No?
Okay then, reggae is my music of choice, so its time for me to represent. I like reggae for its laid back style and smooth rythm. Its easy to listen to and is always nice and relaxing. Personally, my favorite band of all time is Sublime, their music may not be perfect, but to me every song is fantastic in its own way. And thats what good music means to me.:)
Im sorry if this question has been answered/is stupid, but thanks anyways.
MTGSalvation
MTGNews
Pojo
Starcity Games
Misetings
Brainburst, yes, the 'discussing spoilers will get you banned' Brainburst has a discussion on the suit
Official WotC boards
Phyrexia
Make sure you take three things into account:
1 This list is far from complete, as there are many smaller sites and foreign sites that can be added to the list that I just didnt look for.
2 Most people on the threads are morons and have no idea what is really going on.
3 ~80% of players are casual, so they could care less about spoilers or even MTG.com previews.
So for those who arent hip to the scene, someone apparently stole documents from a Sony of Europe meeting and leaked them to a site on the interweb. After many juicy details were obtained, Sony of Europe told the site to take down the news (confirming it, at the same time) or it would take legal action. The site took it down.
Now I think this is the best paralell for what has happened here, except Sony asked them to take it down first. Granted Wizards did the same thing with their DMCA complaint, but that was after they filed suit againt R_E. Leaks like that happen often in the video game industry but to my best knowledge no one has ever been preemptively sued like R_E was.
Id hate to sound like an example Nazi, but the difference is that every time you go down that street 15 mph over the speed limit, the same cop is watching you and he never says anything. What is the cop's rationale to give you a ticket now after letting you speed for years?
Too late.;)
There must have been some kind of misinterpretation here becuase Im not trying to say that a company needs to do anything to keep one customer happy, my point is that one unhappy customer soon becomes two and so on. There is never just one disgruntled customer.
Of course, and the majority could care less about this whole situation.
Sadly this is too true.
Yes, but it is that 20% that spends $100 on a playset of Overgrown Tombs or religiously attends PTQs.
And just as an aside about the number of people who care about the spoiler, when I went to the GP prerelease, I talked with 6 different players who read the spoiler and I also overheard 2 judges talking about the R_E situation (they sided with R_E, btw). I would really like to know how many people actually read the spoiler, it would be an interesting survey.
Ok here is the scenario… I give Random a bag of green leafy substance, and tell him it is marijuana. He looks at it and thinks it might not be real, but he can’t really tell. So he then goes and sells it to someone. Do you think that what he did was illegal? You can be arrested for selling fake drugs just as quick as you can for the real stuff. Just because something may or may not be real does not protect someone from the law. You can’t say I thought it was fake so I should be exempt from the law.
I dont know if you saw the thread with the playtest cards, but from your above statment, I will assume you did not. R_E received the cards via an anonymous IM, after which the sender block him and said nothing about the cards. What with Photoshop around nowadays, it is very easy to fake something like that and I do remember most people in the thread dismissing them as fake. R_E had no knowledge of the sender or the cards' authenticity. And what if the cards were indeed fake? We would not be having this conversation now and no one would be saying that what he did was wrong.
Now if R_E had said 'These are from a reliable source, he told me they are from Time Spiral, and he stole them from R&D', I would be totally with Wizards, as he would have knowingly passed along illegally obtained information, but those were not the circumstances.
And your drug example holds no weight in comparison to what R_E did. No one told him 'here take these cards, they may be real' nor did he try to pass them off as real nor did he sell them (and I dont want to get into another argument about his site).
There is this little known thing called capitalism, love it or hate it, that is how America works. No matter what reviews a product gets, it is ultimately the consumer who decides the success of the product. Obviously you have no knowledge of business, because the first thing you learn is keep your customers happy, you can make no money without any content customers that are willing to buy your product. Disgruntled customers, especially formerly loyal customers like the ones on this board, lead to bad word of mouth, and there is nothing worse for a business.
Heres an example for you. Recently a Walgreens opened up literally right across the street from a privately owned pharmacy. Many people in the neighborhood were angered by their obviously attempted strongarm tactics. Even though Walgreens is the better store, most people still shop at the privately owned pharmacy. Is Walgreens making money? Yes. Is Walgreens making as much money as it would have if it had not angered everyone in the neighborhood? Absolutely not.
I could probably go on, but I need a nap.
His leaking of the TS playtest cards (and we all know that is what this case is really about) had nothing illegal about it. There is nothing illegal about passing on unconfirmed and unknown information, that is in fact the definition of news and/or rumors. Even though they were copyrighted, they could have easily been faked. R_E did not willingly or knowingly break copyright law.
@anyone who thinks that protesting Wizards/Hasbro will have no effect
It is that attitude which is why no one stands up for what they believe in anymore and I applaud anyone who has the integrity to not buy something from a company becuase of its shady business practices. Like Ive stated plenty of times, to a company the customer is more important than anything and losing one customer is losing one too many. One dissatified customer tells a potential customer to stay away and the chain continues. This will not end well for Wizards.
@anyone who thinks Wizards doesnt care about MTGS users
You act like those who actively post here are the only ones that read the spoiler. Just stop. For every person that is on the site at any given time there are two+ guests-be they lurkers who just want to read the spoiler or people who wouldnt be caught dead with an account here. Then include the numerous amounts of people at smaller boards or foreign boards who have the spoiler and I guaruntee you that the "spoiler community" is in the hundreds of thousands. Edit: Forget those who register and dont actually post until something like this happens.
[FONT=Courier New]Well, according to R_E, he never received any sort of cease and decist, that was the least Wizards could have done before suing him.[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]My point was just to show how one sided the article was. Maro gave no explanation as to how leaks lose them money, no actual account of any players who actually dislike leaks (and for one who dislikes them Im sure there are two that enjoys them), and no mention of how the spoiler essentially gives them loads of free marketing. [/FONT]
"Get up, a white person wants this seat."
"Okay, sorry, Ill go to the back."
And like that, Rosa Parks gets up, sits in the back of the bus, and segregation continues well into the 21st century.
Granted, this case is not of the same magnitude, but I for one will not be buying any Wizards products. Seriously, you people need to take Business 101, losing one customer is one too many, no matter how big a corporation you are.
1 7 years
2 $500
3 Nothing recently
Yeah, so? That hardly constitues a warning to R_E, who says he even read either of those articles?
Both articles are poorly written nonetheless, they were like two children continuing to argue even after their opponents have walked away, with no explanation of anything to boot.
"Leaks are not nice cause they ruin the suprise...and they hurt players...and loose us money!"
And in reading Maro's article, I found this
Then why sue R_E?
Drugs totally make awesome music.
Im glad hes back on the "current" roster.
Radically different? Does that mean no buildings at all?!:o
Wow.
*stands up a slow claps*
That is one of the most sensible things Ive read in this entire thread. You hit the nail on the head with every one of your points.
Ignoring all legal mumbo jumbo being thrown around, Wizards is acting like Grade A aholes in this case. They are going after a man who is a blue collar worker, a man who has in no way shape of form harmed Wizards; if anything, his leaks have increased sales [at least for me, and I doubt I am alone] and he has done more for the online Magic community than any Wizards employee can possibly do [I know I visited 'News before MTG.com]. So Wizards repsonds by trying to destroy his financial future in one fell swoop? R_E is not Nintendo, and Wizards is just wrong to treat him like that. Wizards should worry more about tightening their security and less about ruining a man's life.
Simply put, every single Magic player should be ashamed by the way Wizards is handling this case.
Well, its does show a lot about one's integrity when they refuse to purchase a company's products based on business practices, I for example havent eaten Taco Bell in years because of the way they treat their laborers, and I sure as hell wont be buying any Wizards or Hasbro products for long time.
Okay, its all good. If you recommend it, then it must be good; Ill give them a shot.
And dont worry, the bling blang comment was just a joke about the only type of rap music that gets listened to in my neighborhood, a mostly white neighborhood mind you.
I must disagree with this highly (see that, not just disagreeing, but disagreeing highly).
Public Enemy
A Tribe Called Quest
Eric B. and Rakim
NWA
Beastie Boys
De La Soul
and of course you cannot go without mentioning Run DMC
As you can see my preference lies mainly in old school. Kids these days with their hoes and thier bling blang. But I dont want to get into an argument with TFE about rap...Ive seen what he does to people when they get him angry...:o
You want reggae love? You got it!
Bob Marley
Dreadlocks and smoking weed
Jamaica
Cool Runnings the Musical
Enough reggae love for ya?
No?
Okay then, reggae is my music of choice, so its time for me to represent. I like reggae for its laid back style and smooth rythm. Its easy to listen to and is always nice and relaxing. Personally, my favorite band of all time is Sublime, their music may not be perfect, but to me every song is fantastic in its own way. And thats what good music means to me.:)