MTG Salvation

Quote from KingAlanI

Journeyer's Kite can go. And I suppose Lim-Dul's Vault is superfluous given Top.

I knew Elixir shuffled in, but I thought a game wouldn't have lasted long enough to make that relevant. Yeah, I suppose the lifegain wouldn't hurt.

Yeah, this deck doesn't have other ways to deal with artifacts besides counter or bounce.

Ooh, I hadn't even thought about Cyclonic Rift then discard.

So I was wrong on the rationale for the fetches. Also, I knew they could do a bit of fixing by grabbing a dual or shock (say crack Verdant Catacombs for Watery Grave). But I still can't afford them, especially for a secondary use.

Okay, I'll consider the Crumbling Necropolis at least.

Lim-Dul's Vault is still a good card. I don't play it because it's a -1 CA (it's nice to stack the top five, but I want to put a card into my hand to replace it). And, sometimes if I stack the top five, I can't use a fetchland or else I'll lose the benefit of it.

This deck plays for the late game - I exhaust your resources/threats and then take over with inevitability. So Elixir helps me a good deal in accomplishing that.

Artifacts were a problem, yeah. They slip through counters (let a Sword/Jitte resolve because you think you can keep them off critters) but that sword of Fire and Ice was a beating against me. It's nice to have a couple of options to outright destroy them.

I understand the fetchlands are expensive. It took me the last three years to finally get them all online. But it's so worth it when you can.

I'm glad you were able to pick up a few ideas from my list. =)

Yeah, I don't run the Disk because I sometimes can't afford to wait a turn to pop it. Arena is still acceptable if you don't have perfect mana (I wouldn't play Necro in three colour without perfect mana).

Don't use Feldon's - use Elixir instead. The lifegain is surprisingly relevant and it shuffles itself as well, as opposed to Feldon's exiling itself.

Necropolis is worth coming in tapped - we're a control deck, one land EBT in exchange for making all of our colours is very acceptable. The fetchlands provide more than "minuscule deck thinning" (which is an aspect not even worth considering at all). They're all so good with Divining Top, Crucible-Fetch ensures you never miss a land drop again, Brainstorm, and the ability to leave them uncracked and blank opposing Stone Rains (or hold off on them and crack in response to a Moon so that you can still have your colours [this and Chromatic Lantern are our primary defense versus Moon anyway]. Definitely get these as soon as you can afford them).

Yeah, having Swan Song or Spell Snare may seem like they limit, but in actuality, take a closer look at the spells that are being hurled towards you - you'll see these cards aren't as restrictive as they appear on paper (I'll gladly trade your Ranger's Path for a 2/2 flyer). Also, one of the banes of this style deck is t2 Sylvan Library when we're on the draw - these are some of the few cards that can stop that from happening. Annul almost made the cut, but I like Steel Sabotage too damn much haha.

C. Rift is a blast - especially in response to a Bolas damage trigger. Far/Away should replace Terror in your list, I think. It's fairly lacklustre as far as removal goes. Man, Far/Away is a really great value card. Crosis' Charm is really a hidden gem - Dark Banishing, Regress, or Shatter in one card. Funny story about that, I kept running into artifact-related problems (mainly swords), and I was up late one night checking out Charms for modal spells. I ran across this and like "Omg, I think I'm in love". Everything I could have ever asked for. i'm very happy to cast it for three mana. Speaking of silver bullets, why no Rakdos Charm? A Shatter or Tormod's Crypt are it's usual modes, but it can be nice versus token hoards like Elfball or Splinter Twin combos.

Quote from KingAlanI

Quote from 3drinks

Yeah, I use Bolas as my finisher of choice as well. It's funny, because when we're ready to end it and Bolas resolves, they know what's going to happen but they can't do anything to stop it...

My list isn't on the forums (I need to grab the .txt file and sort it out for you). As my sig suggests, it's my Grixis rendition of Weissman's "The Deck". So it's a lot of fun, but it is not a cheap deck to build at all.

Aren't a lot of finishers like that? And Lightning Graves or Clout of the Dominus give even less time to do anything about it.

Mana Drain, Mind Twist and Timetwister seem to be the main in-color non-banned cards in those decklists but not mine. Yeah, Mana Drain and Timetwister aren't going to happen, but other counters and Wheel of Fortune seem like good budget replacements. Mind Twist is a possibility, though. Maybe I'll cut Dimir Machinations - Transmute often seems overrated. (I like Muddle the Mixture because it's not bad by itself, especially because I obviously can't play multiples of other counters)

I still need a Drain - it's ~$30 on MODO but I'm between jobs. Someday though. And Power isn't available (except in the WotC Cube) so I don't get to play 'Twister - not that I was going to anyway (same goes for Wheel of Fortune you mentioned). We have more than enough ways to build CA that we don't need to give them a fresh hand too.

Quote from KingAlanI

Quote from 3drinks

Ha. Glad to see someone else with the Bolas-flavoured grindy Grixis control. I've been enjoying Nin a bit more for the easier manabase (I can build any mana on MODO though) but since our decks are doing similar things, I should post mine here for this thread too.

Yay, apparently I'm onto something.

I suppose you could say this is UBR goodstuff with Bolas as the finisher.

I did actually use Grixis-art Shards of Alara basics. (and some heavily played Islands from my first deck and an Alpha Swamp - most ancient evil and all that.)

I admit I've got a lot of proxies in the Bolas manabase. I have some of the missing cards in other decks or my collection binder. I know that wouldn't be a problem online, but I only play paper.

I use Niv Mizzet as my UR general, and that hasn't been doing well, so maybe I need to get with the times.

I would like to take a look at your decklist, but I don't see it.

Yeah, I use Bolas as my finisher of choice as well. It's funny, because when we're ready to end it and Bolas resolves, they know what's going to happen but they can't do anything to stop it...

My list isn't on the forums (I need to grab the .txt file and sort it out for you). As my sig suggests, it's my Grixis rendition of Weissman's "The Deck". So it's a lot of fun, but it is not a cheap deck to build at all.

Ha. Glad to see someone else with the Bolas-flavoured grindy Grixis control. I've been enjoying Nin a bit more for the easier manabase (I can build any mana on MODO though) but since our decks are doing similar things, I should post mine here for this thread too.

Quote from 9spheres

Quote from Raining Frogs

the thing is, I myself and I'm sure plenty of people don't like feeling forced into running and subsequently building around hate cards just to deal with an out of control meta, if you can't build a deck the way you want and have it be at least successful, it's not really a casual format at all.

I read this as, "I don't want to be bothered to build my deck as if the other guy is going to try and win first". Pardon the football metaphor but its like saying that you are going to try and pass the ball every play even if you are playing the #1 ranked pass defense in the league. There are some strategies that never work: trying to hold Asia in Risk, invading Russia during the winter, drawing toward an inside straight in poker, and refusing to adapt in Magic.

TLDR: Run more answers.

Couldn't have said it better. QFT

If he "doesn't want to let it go", the only thing you can do is build a deck designed to blink, cheat and utilize it as early and often, over and over again until he finally sees the problem. Eventually, he will get tired of the "t2 Reanimate kill your land, t3 Cloudshift kill your land again". Naitch, you would be best to do this in a Karador, Ghost Chieftain deck.

It's funny, people blasted me and my theories in running my Commander events on Magic Online. They questioned me for not playing the same exact format as Duel-Commander, and they questioned my changes. While a couple of these DC changes do make sense (Zur and Nat. Order) the others just flat out don't.

Come to Magic Online and play in my events instead of this. You can play your Derevis, and Grim Monoliths freely. Monolith isn't a problem card, and, the Derevi-Prossh-Karador trifecta keeps heavy permission decks from being all over the format. If you're curious to my format, check the link in my sig (we just completed event 4.08). We run events about once a week, with number of rounds based on attendance, and I personally oversee matches when one particular deck may or may not be getting out of control.

Why would it matter? People would just post here like they do with their decklists, ignoring the other subforums anyway.

This is a limited powerhouse, and it will define draft archetypes.

Quote from Kryptnyt

I always think it's funny that people hate on Obliterate and not Jokulhaups which does the same thing for 2 less mana.
2 less mana!
People are still starting at that point in EDH!
Control players are still tapping out for ramp spells!

Jokulhaups can be countered. And if players are still tapping out for ramp on turn 6, that is... weird. Whether that's the case or not, Jokulhaups player would still be building a robust board at that point, so that when he casts it he actually wins.

These spells are good because they are an out to things nothing else works for. A person with a commanding board position won't come back from it most of the time. Remember when Azusa went Tooth and Nail into Prime Time and Avenger? Wrath wasn't enough, but when someone slammed Apocalypse with Aeon Chronicler suspended for 1-3 more turns, the player who was winning just instantly lost.
Some people don't like the "comeback kid."

This is true. Everyone knows that there are super-obscene board states that just can't be resolved with simple, commonly played sweepers. I keep remembering a game where a Momir player on the net had Future Sight, Seedborn Muse, Sword of Light and Shadow, Eternal Witness in the bin, his commander on the field and about 16 lands. Basically enough to replay his commander, whatever green creature was in his hand, fetch Trinket Mage, Top, then draw his entire deck at 1 mana a pop. I Obliterate. Then the Momir player ended the game by hate-waiting.

Commander is supposed to be a back and forth, but some people don't like the forth.

Quote from Khaospawn

Oblation is also a card that can handle a renegade Avacyn. Just saying.
edit : also Ashes to Ashes

Hallowed Burial, Sever the Bloodline, Terminus, Final Judgment are also options.

In a competitve EDH game, tuck effects are very good.

So I think the biggest complaint I hear from people who dislike combo is that it "it is un-interactive" or that it "invalidates the whole game that preceded it," or that it is "like playing solitaire."

I think that these people believe this because they either do not realize the ways that combo is interactive (because this interactivity looks different than other decks), or they do not like/want to play with the cards that interact with combo.

An agro deck playing creatures is really not all that different than a combo deck playing tutors. If unanswered the creatures will kill everyone. In some cases (like tokens) you produce a large scary board position and then literally kill everyone in one swing (with Titanic Ultimatum or something). This is analogous to the combo deck tutoring up combo pieces or protection and then going off. The agro version just looks more interactive because it is on the board.

In fact it is just as possible to interact with combo. A single target removal spell is often analogous to a discard spell, or a piece of grave hate, or a counter spell. Similarly something like Identity Crisis or Mind Shatter is like a sweeper.

Another misconception is that only blue decks can interact. This is often untrue. If a combo involves creatures then you can pull up some instant removal and interact that way. If it is a grave based combo both Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt are available to every deck, and black, green and white decks have even more options. Sure blue decks have counters which are almost universal answers, but other colors have outs too (and even red has one of the best anti-combo cards ever printed for EDH in Stranglehold).

In my experience combo is just as interactive as any other type of deck and is by no means just solitaire. It is a back and forth of sculpting your hand or graveyard or mana while other players attempt to disrupt you, either via proactive discard and hosers (like Leyline of the Void or Stranglehold) or reactive cards like counters and removal (Krosan Grip comes to mind here).

I think the reason that a lot of players (especially those that call themselves casual) feel this way is that they do not like adapting or tuning their decks. Many players I have met like to build a deck with the cards they think are cool and then stop working on it. Often these players devote a ton of space to creatures and ways to interact with them and almost no space to so called "hate cards" (to be fair Relic of Progenitus is as much a hate card as Wrath of God is, they each hose certain decks and pick up some value against others). Then when they loose to a combo they had no way to interact with (by choice or deck building error), they complain that combo (and not their own deck) is not interactive, instead of adding cards to their deck that interact with the combo.

Here is an example to illustrate my point. My friend has an Ezuri elf deck. This deck has a lot of fast mana and elves and ways to pump them up (Immaculate Magistrate + Joraga Warcaller, Craterhoof Behemoth etc). This deck often wins on or before turn 6. I used to loose to it often, so I added more sweepers to my deck to interact with him. In fact his deck is itself very non-interactive. It attempts to set up a win as fast a possible, it often ignores what its opponents are doing to get there. It is not a true "combo" deck, it does not go infinite, it does not win with the same 3 cards every game, but it does win quickly, and it does not interact much (though it can be interacted with). You could say the same things about most agro decks.

In fact, I would guess that most people who say they dislike combo because it is non interactive/boring to play against/solitaire like say so because they themselves are playing non interactive decks (of many types) under the guise of not wanting to mess with other peoples plans or "letting them have their fun too." I hear a lot of people say they don't run counters in blue, or wasteland, or sweepers because they are unfun. But those are the cards that actually do the interacting, without them you are just developing your board and seeing who wins first, which is exactly what people hate about combo.

I will say one thing against combo decks (but really this applies to any grindy decks with lots of tutors). It is really boring when people take 3+ minute turns because they have to tutor and shuffle their 90 card libraries every turn. I have been guilty of getting Rune-Scarred Demon on Mimic Vat with Greater Good before and tutoring and then drawing 6+ cards and then deciding which of them to play each turn really bogs down the game (this wasn't even combo, but I see this type of thing with combo decks more than other types of decks). Similarly watching someone try to finish their Azami combo where they draw their library is kind of like watching paint dry, and when Sliver Queen eats everyone's lands/permanents and then has to beat everyone to death manually it does suck. But I have nothing against the guy who just goes off on turn 10 in a 2 minute turn and wins on the spot.

Quote from 3drinks

So I was scrolling through here this morning and I noticed that today is the one-year anniversary of this thread's creation. One year later, with over 1,000 posts, and over 55,000 views. That is a lot, I feel, of eyes on this thread, learning and contributing to making an awesome archetype more awesome. It may not have the cult following of Gaka's Norin deck(but who does, lol) but this is way cool.

Thank you, to all the supporters who have made this such a success and provided me with much support! It is truly an honour.

Thanks for putting your heart into this thread, 3drinks. You are a genuine Kaalia player to the core, and it's because of your hard work we, the community, have a place to go for advice, answers, and deck tech on our favorite General.

And maybe you're a cool guy too.

Here's to another year of everything Kaalia!

Quote from mystik2k

@3drinks, fair enough my playgroup isnt as cutthroat as yours what changes would you suggest, what should i look at replacing my waves of aggression and savage beating with? and what other changes can you suggest?

My suggestion would be for Chaos Warp and Oblation. The deck needs instant speed removal and these are two of the best.

Quote from fattyluvboat

I dunno, to me it just shows that you take EDH way too seriously when all you are packing is stuff like Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Necropotence......basically all the most optimal goodstuff type cards. I don't see why it is so difficult to lighten up and throw in a 10 cent rare like Crypt of Agadeem or something like Rhystic Tutor.

It seems against the spirit of the format to tell someone they're building their own deck the wrong way, if you ask me. If someone honestly enjoys playing with all the best and most powerful cards, then they should do so. It's THEIR deck. They should enjoy it the way they want to. And that kind of player shouldn't look down on those who prefer the 10-cent rares and other jank, either.

Mishra, Artificier Prodigy

Mishra has always been one of those cards I really really wished worked as intended in EDH,
a free Mirrorworks as your general? Hard to pass up.
Sadly it doesn't work that way, but there are other great angles Mishra can be taken.
Why Mishra?

Mishra has a unique ability that allows him to be downright silly when combined with the right set of cards, mainly Nether Void and Blood Funnel, among others to control the board and establish enough advantage to either lock the board or "combo" out.

You will enjoy playing Mishra if:
- You like creative combos with more than 2-3 pieces
- You like non-infinite combos (storm version)
- You like having multiple options and playing a deck with several game plans. (Stax version)
- You like complex interactions and are familiar with the complexities of the stack.
- You like having a quirky general with interactions that no one sees coming.

Mishra is not for you if:
- You hate combos
- You appreciate beatdown more than control
- You don't like being the archenemy (stax)
- You like using mainstream or tier 1 generals
- You like long games (storm)

Now, you might be wondering why this thread is called "A Tale of Two Mishra's." That's because there are 2 decklists here, two decks for two very different play-styles. The first, stax, is optimized for multiplayer and the second, storm, is built for the french 1v1 banlist.

The first of these decks is below, and it's focused on the powerful interaction between Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and Nether Void. Together, this means that all of your opponents spells will cost 3 extra and all your artifacts gain "can't be countered." This is an extremely powerful stax tool that can do major damage to most decks and strategies. One major weakness to this engine is uncontrolled ramp (Azusa, Lost but Seeking and the like), but that's why we have Winter Orb - shutting down ramp since 1995.

Stax Decklist:
Sorted by UseSorted by type
Strategy:

General Strategy for Stax

Combo:

Stax/Control Elements

Below is the second decklist, based on the strong cost-reducing power of Blood Funnel and Mishra, Artificer Prodigy supplemented by Cloud Key, Helm of Awakening, Semblance Anvil, and Etherium Sculptor. We use these cost reducers together with Null Profusion and Vedalken Archmage to play our deck and win with Tendrils of Agony

Storm Decklist:
Sorted by Use:

Sorted by type:

The above decklist is modified for the french 1v1 EDH banlist - here are some cards that were cut when bringing this from multiplayer to 1v1. This deck is quite powerful and can still squeeze out turn 4-5 wins in multiplayer (I've hit storm 93 on turn 4) so these are some cards that I took out.



These definitely increase the power level of the deck significantly so if your playgroup is mostly multiplayer they are worth the include and can make this deck competitive against 3 opponents.

Strategy for Storm


Changelog:

Quote from Revanan

Valid points as I was thinking about the Fire Diamond over Ingot also. Either works well as the Ingot survives destruction effects, but the fire also does help bring Kaalia out quicker.

I didn't think about Terminus any but Balancing Act does add a bit of destruction without the actual destroy effect. Plus discard is always good.

Jeweled Amulet was something I didn't think would work, but when you mentioned the T3 Kaalia, then it clicked. So I made those changes.

Again, thanks for the help. Now to get the cards I don't have and give this a run through with my peers. Hopefully I don't die first for once haha.

I think if you've followed any of 3drinks' advice, you'll be killing everyone else off at the table. They don't stand a chance. lol

But, if there's anything I've learned from piloting Kaalia, there's a few key guidelines to follow if you want to ensure maximum beats:

(1) Keep your games small. Kaalia thrives in a 1v1 environment. Each additional opponent lengthens the victory clock. Also, more opponents equal more removal spells to take out Miss Kaalia and friends. As a rule of thumb, I try to keep games with Kaalia down to 1v1 or 2v1. (I say 2v1, but I'm really referring to a 3 person game where I've decided that I'm taking out both people ASAP. Politics be damned! XD). I've played Kaalia in 4-5 man pods before and, I'm not saying it's impossible to win, but it really is an uphill battle if more than one opponent can fight back. However, winning those 4 player pods make victory taste even more sweeter.

(2) Blue is bad, mkay? The less blue at a table, the better. I'm not saying to tell all the U players to go fist themselves. What I mean by that is 2 things. One, if you see a person playing blue in your game, kill him. You might have to dance around a counterspell to get Kaalia up and running, but make sure that Island lover takes a Dragon to the face the first chance you get. Better yet, drop Iona and then call blue. Two, each blue player at the table cuts down your chances of winning. A single U mage is scary enough, but when you sit down at a 4 man pod and see THREE of them, don't expect to seriously walk away the winner in that game. I'm not saying it's an auto loss. I have too much faith in Kaalia to dismiss her chances like that. I'm just saying that it will increase your chances of winning if you avoid U players in your games or you just take them out first. People that play Islands are not to be trusted.

(3) Kaalia wins games by applying a dangerously fast clock when she drops a fatty. Most people blow their wad with her the first chance they get (I mean, who can blame them? Kaalia IS a hottie. :)). What I mean by that is just this: don't overextend. You never really want more than 1 or 2 fatties on the table at any given time. Most of the A/D/D's in the deck are pretty dangerous as it is. It's only a matter of time until your opponent gets killed by the pressure that they apply. Don't get greedy. 9 times outta 10, the moment you over extend, your opponent is going to boardwipe. When that happens, you're a sitting duck. A boardwipe is inevitable in EDH. Expect it. When it does happen you want to be able to drop another fatty ASAP and resume applying pressure. Besides, after dropping mana rocks and a fatty or two, you usually don't have much of a hand after that anyway. You don't want to leave yourself open in case your opponent does fight back. Save a fatty and a kill spell in your hand and be patient. The monster that you have on the board will do enough work on its own.

Quote from 3drinks

I'm just now in the process of securing employment up here myself(got a pretty promising 2^nd interview next week).

Good luck with the interview. I hope it works out for you. Finding secure employment has been one of the most stressful things in life, in my experience. Hope you're able to lock something down soon :).

Quote from 3drinks

^This. This probably is the correct play. Hellkite, much like Akromas, are both eight mana 6/6 flyers. Thus, I will be sad all the same when I sit with that guy in my hand instead of something actually useful.

Thank you, for getting me away from "Ooh, shiny new dragon, must use" syndrome.

No problem 3drinks. I view angels, demons, and dragons (A/D/D) that I might use based on your "Flameblast Syndrome" policy. Whether it's 1 vs. 1 or multiplayer, I tend to value any A/D/D that have ETB or static abilities simply because the majority of the time, the A/D/Ds are placed on the battlefield from Kaalia. Since the chances of wipes and removal are high against us, having A/D/D that have an immediate board presence is quite valuable. Utvara Hellkite, as you noted, is a "Flameblast" creature and at 8 mana, it's not a strong initial pick for a Kaalia deck as we have better creatures that fit into 8 mana slots.

Quote from 3drinks

Unfortunately, no I have not. :/

Luckily however, I have been fortunate enough for a nice member of the community here to help me rebuild it, for all of my hard work in making this the best Kaalia thread on the internet. It will be hard, however, to get my Vindicate and my OG duals of course, but once I can finally find some steady employment here, I should be able to do this in due time. Eventually.

You're taking this all in far better stride than I would!