So, I've reviewed all of Puzzle's posts this game, just to see what, if anything stuck out. As mentioned above, I haven't found "proof" of anything. What I have found, however, is a consistent pattern of poor judgment, incorrect suspicions and general "bad" play. More than I have come to expect from him. I have not quoted every post of Puzzle's (far too many). Nor have I quoted entire posts (far too long). I am aware of this, so please don't accuse me of trying to misrepresent anything. These are just my impressions and thoughts as I read back, knowing what we know now.
Quote from Puzzle in post #19 »
One stupid idea : what if there were two mafias, one black and one white ?
I'd suggest focusing on the black paladins first, but that idea should maybe be kept in mind for the late game, just on case.
Puzzle started early with this interesting post. What struck me here, was how he seems to be trying to lay the groundwork for suspicion against the White Paladins. Completely contrary to what the opening post would suggest. Could also have been a way to try and identify the White Paladins (as they protested this ridiculous theory).
Quote from Puzzle in post #111 »
On game :
Vote Greebo, for what has already been said + his weird introduction (see page 1).
By the way, I'm rare.
Votes Greebo. Now a confirmed Townie.
Quote from Puzzle in post #119 »
unvote Greebo, vote unsanitary999.
Changes vote to Unsanitary, confirmed Townie.
Quote from Puzzle in post #138 »
I personally think different from Azrael (and most other good players for that matter) about lurker lynching.
Take it this way : if everyone lurks, knowing perfectly well that they'll systematically get away with it, it will discourage discussion, hence reducing the risk of any mafia slip-up and more importantly my interest in the game. If you have a look at abandoned games, you'll often see some consistant lurking/absence. If at the end of a day deadline there are no good lynch targets, I won't hesitate to push for the lynch of the one who, I feel, contributed the less (quality-wise first, but also with a consideration for quantity).
I think it's in the best interest for the town and for the game the way I like it.
That is my general philosophy and I don't exclude to use it today. However, in the mean time, I'd really like to have unsan's answer.
Here he advocates the practice of lurker lynching, which can be a great tool for the mafia. Easy way to vote for a townie without drawing undue suspicion.
Quote from Puzzle in post #219 »
Massive FOS Cropcircles.
FOS's CropCircles, who is as close to a confirmed living Townie as we have.
Quote from Puzzle in post #305 »
That brings me to Sorryguy :
It seems very likely that our mafia has several black creatures. As they know their names, that means that they can fairly easily guess yours (unless you are not rare, I don't remember). In this respect, they have more information than the town about you. Therefore, I think that if you are a black rare, you should claim what card you are (not any ability).
It won't make you 100% innocent but they probably won't try to kill you because we will always have a doubt about you.
Finally, I wouldn't waste an inspection on Sorryguy because if he is scum, then the only explanation for bringing so much attention is that he is a sort of Godfather (one of the Paladins ?), so the inspection will anyway bring up an innocent result.
Questions SorryGuy, who, in my opinion, is not suspicious. Also uses very poor logic. Why on earth should SorryGuy if he was a black rare, give up his card. Your statement that the mafia can "fairly easily" guess his card, is just wrong. This is just free info. for the mafia here. Also suggests NOT inspecting saying even if SorryGuy comes up innocent, he might still be a mafia Godfather. So SorryGuy is pretty much screwed by this logic.
Quote from Puzzle in post #319 »
Vote Pawn907.
Votes Pawn, confirmed Townie (yes, I voted him too, but this vote actually came earlier)
Interestingly, in posts #336 + #337 Puzzle and claimed Mason buddy Basementdwellers post back-to-back. They never mention each other or hint in the slightest way that they are connected.
Day One Ended at post #544. Up to this point, Puzzle has made no posts whatsoever that would indicate or support in any way his later roleclaim. Nothing.
Quote from Puzzle in post #569 »
Vote Azrael.
Votes Azrael, confirmed Townie
Quote from Puzzle in post #604 »
I don't know why, but I feel that our spirits are in fact shifting from one body to another every evening : it will be harder and harder to distinguish good from bad. Then, our most solid bet is to hold secret on our first identities, which are the most likely to show scumminess.
Begins his strange theorizing about role-switching. Interestingly, at this point, he is of the opinion that our day 1 claims are the strongest.
Quote from Puzzle in post #622 »
I still think that our first identities will prove to be the most important, as we will derive more and more from them.
Again, the day one claims are most important.
Quote from Puzzle in post #644 »
My thought was about this : the first appearance change spell was BEFORE day one, the white Paladins were probably not in the day 1 roles anyway. It doesn't mean that we should take the risk to expose them, but it's worth considering.
Now, suddenly, he theorizes that the White Paladins were not even in the game Day 1. Those roles were not our "real" roles at all. This post could also be viewed as a Paladin baiting post.
Quote from Puzzle in post #704 »
Vote Greebo
Vote Greebo, confirmed townie.
Quote from Puzzle in post #752 »
I must have missed that part. Once again, the first time we changed appearance was BEFORE day one. I'm quite sure that no one was a Paladin anymore yesterday and claims may be quite safe for the mafia.
Actually, some role-based info + this analysis make me believe that blue could be a scummy colour, if the wheel turns like I think. This is still a weak lead for the time being, but could be reinforced later.
Greebo is not a too bad lynch as his loss wouldn't hurt too much and would give us a better view of everything. However, my FOS on Azrael remains and draygn_mage's last post is quite a good case against unsanitary999.
Look at this. He's "quite sure" no one was a Paladin day 1. How does he get so sure?
Finishes off with a tri-fecta of suspicion against Greebo, Azrael and Unsan. Confirmed Townies all.
Yeah, hi Bug. Where did you go? Didn't you drop out of modding your own game and get hosting blacklisted? Doesn't mean you can't play mine, of course. Just don't disappear, okay?
Your avatar is still Nepal from World Domination Mafia. That's funny.
Warning...warning...massive analysis of Puzzle forthcoming. Later tonight. It's not going to be pretty, and it doesn't "prove" anything, but I did it. So there.
I'll probably have to break it up into multiple posts.
Welcome to all the new players. I just want to make sure you know what you are getting into. Have you read any old games or any of the rules/role descriptions before?
And kpaca: I have you in for now, but I seem to recall your participation in NEWS games was not that great. Can I get some assurance that you intend to actively participate in this game?
Puzzle, not lynching Alpha helps you. It guarantees that you stay alive (and by extrapolation, Swinkee). I am not saying I think he's clear. I never said that. I'm saying don't lynch him and the Peacekeeper thing will sort itself out, depending on who the mafia decides to kill.
If Silicon is scum and we tell him to fry a townie, he will happily comply raising no suspicion at all. If we give him a "choice" he can easily pick the non-mafia, and still avoid suspicion. If we tell him to kill a mafia, and he doesn't do it, well, yes, that would seem to be good evidence, but that possibility rates lower than the first two.
You may be missing the fact that we are walking a fine line here. My original idea works as long as there are no "extra" mafia kills or townie deaths. If there are, and we miss the lynch twice, then the mafia equal the town before we isolate them (assuming we started with 5 mafia). Without extra townie deaths, we can miss three straight lynches (getting an investigation every time which clears someone else) and still win.
I'm still not thinking it's a good idea for Silicon to fry anybody if StevieT is a mafia. He's hardly clear himself, and we are greatly at risk of going down another townie that way.
I've got it between Silicon, Titus, and Blinking Spirit for Swinkee's investigation myself, but, then again, Swinkee and Blinking think it should be me.
Well, CropCircles is sort of right. It would have put us in a situation where we "knew" that one of the two claimers was a scum, but didn't necessarily know which. You would have risked being killed first, but a 1 for 1 is a pretty good trade for the town.
On the other hand, if no one tried to claim either card, then you would have looked worse.
The single strongest argument in your favor is that post from BD. Frustratingly, he was such a lurker/poor poster, that it is hard to make strong inferences. Yes, it could be he was saying he had role-related reason to believe Puzzle was clear (which could have been several different things, not just a mason claim--which he did not hint at). On the other hand, it might have been something else, and Puzzle it just using it as a way of bolstering his claim. The other "hints" you mention, epeeguy, came very late in the game, well after Puzzle presumably decided to make this claim (if it's a fabrication.)
Vodka7up: read the information that Puzzle linked to, and possibly read some old games to get an idea what it's like. I've got no problem letting people play who have never played before--first time for everyone, but you should understand the basic rules. Then let me know if you still want to try.
It does represent a commitment on your part that I will expect you to honor.
Personally, I think that claim stinks like day-old fish. That was your master plan to "clear" yourself? You "knew" one of the Green roles and you hoped to trap a mafia false-claiming it? The odds of that happening were already low from the start. Plus, we wouldn't have known who to believe.
So now we are expected to believe in the existance of a two man Mason group in a 29 person game (one of whom is conveniently dead and can't verify it). I'll be checking your posts, but I don't recall any hints from you in this regard previously, which is something Mason groups routinely will do specifically because of the chance one of them will get killed. I also don't recall you defending Basementdwellers for his lurking at all, nor protesting the fact that Highroller abruptly mod-killed him. Come to think of it, I don't think Highroller would have mod-killed him had he been part of a mason group. Would more likely have tried to get him replaced. And you should certainly have been more upset about it. (I have to check your posts to verify this, I actually don't remember exactly what, if anything you said about it).
The only thing in your favor is the Birds claim, which, if you were a Black Mafia, would have been a risk. There were only 2 Greens to possibly counter-claim you, with 8 open roles, but it would still have been a risk. On the other hand, Birds might genuinely be your card, but you could still be mafia. Perhaps it's time to test the theory that we have an all Black mafia.
I'm ready to vote you, but I'll wait to see what others have to say. Anything else you'd like to claim at this time?
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
Welcome to the Council of Elrond. This is a mafia game for 20 players. Sign-ups will be on a first come first served basis, although I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.
IN ADDITION: you may not sign up for this game if you are currently alive in both of the other games running on the site (sorry guys). My understanding of the current policy is you can play in two games at a time. You can still sign up to be a replacement.
What I expect:
1.You must participate. Seems obvious, right. I am, nevertheless, consistently amazed by the number of people who will sign up for a game, and then—not play. Please don’t do that.
2.I would like to see at least one post every three real life days. If that’s not possible for some reason—such as vacation—please let me know.
3.Have fun and be polite. Always remember, it’s a game.
IMPORTANT MOD. NOTE: Although there has been an attempt to make the game interesting and flavorful and there are several special roles and abilities floating around, at its heart this will be a basic game of Mafia. By this I mean that there will be “basic townie” type roles. If you find “basic townie” type roles boring, and think you will lose interest if you receive one, please DO NOT SIGN UP FOR THIS GAME. Again, I expect participation from all the players.
The List:
1. God Child (via post in Hosting thread)
2. dazbog_eaterofsouls
3. Hawkeye7
4. LJustus
5. draygn_mage
6. Pibbly
7. Azrael
8. aurorasparrow
9. SOS
10. Rhinocero
11. kpaca
12. bateleur
13. Fayul
14. Armlx
15. Enigma91
16. Deadly Budah
17. help im a bug
18. worthawholebean
19. swinkee
20. StevieT92
Puzzle was my suggestion if Stevie turned out to be True. Puzzle actually agreed with this. But others may disagree. I'm not trying to dictate what happens here, just giving my best advice and opinion. I don't think you should hit Blinking if Stevie turns out to be mafia, however. It's just not necessary--we will be well ahead at that point, and there's no need to risk killing a possible townie. In my opinion.
I am not forgetting that. I've said it several times. You are the one who said you questioned your own sanity right at the beginning, as if you wanted to put your own inspections in doubt. Now, with the Dazbog thing, it appears that's not an issue anymore. So the only way Puzzle would be scum is if he's some kind of Godfather role which comes up innocent to inspections. You've heard of those, yes? They can be particularly dangerous.
How do we find out? Well, the answer is by suspect claims or suspicious play. Puzzle's play hasn't been particularly suspicious, but the claim has been fishy from the start. "Nurse" doesn't sound like a role that would be in the game. But I accepted it, with a plan that basically insured that you stay alive with him protecting you, so if you died, that would indicate that Puzzle was, in fact scum.
Hopefully, it's all a non-issue and StevieT is scum. I'm just thinking ahead and considering all future possibilities. How suspicious.
Ah yes, because I'm acting so suspiciously this game. Can't we agree that others are more suspicious? You should try to prioritize these things. But, if you really feel that way, by all means, inspect me. Hopefully we are narrowing it down to the point where we don't even need Cop inspections anymore. Several good possibilities have now presented themselves.
@Swinkee: I agree completely about Crippled role-Blocking Titus. That can't hurt the town and might be beneficial. But I'm also confused, do you agree or disagree that either StevieT or Puzzle must be mafia? Because you seem to agree about the vote for StevieT, but you are FOSing me for suggesting that Silicon shoot Puzzle if Stevie turns up True.
@Blinking: So I gather you have no difficulty with 4 Protection roles in one game (including 2 straight up Docs, with only one having a back-up). The "StevieT is just being StevieT" excuse only goes so far. I listed the arguments in his favor, and I didn't vote for him, until he came out with that ridiculous protection list, which is either incredibly scummy or incredibly dumb. And I assume he submitted a choice on the night of the mass role-block, even if it didn't go through. That's what I was asking for, his choices.
We really don't have any solid evidence for a Cult either.
Maybe you should vote for yourself
So, I've reviewed all of Puzzle's posts this game, just to see what, if anything stuck out. As mentioned above, I haven't found "proof" of anything. What I have found, however, is a consistent pattern of poor judgment, incorrect suspicions and general "bad" play. More than I have come to expect from him. I have not quoted every post of Puzzle's (far too many). Nor have I quoted entire posts (far too long). I am aware of this, so please don't accuse me of trying to misrepresent anything. These are just my impressions and thoughts as I read back, knowing what we know now.
Puzzle started early with this interesting post. What struck me here, was how he seems to be trying to lay the groundwork for suspicion against the White Paladins. Completely contrary to what the opening post would suggest. Could also have been a way to try and identify the White Paladins (as they protested this ridiculous theory).
Votes Greebo. Now a confirmed Townie.
Changes vote to Unsanitary, confirmed Townie.
Here he advocates the practice of lurker lynching, which can be a great tool for the mafia. Easy way to vote for a townie without drawing undue suspicion.
FOS's CropCircles, who is as close to a confirmed living Townie as we have.
Questions SorryGuy, who, in my opinion, is not suspicious. Also uses very poor logic. Why on earth should SorryGuy if he was a black rare, give up his card. Your statement that the mafia can "fairly easily" guess his card, is just wrong. This is just free info. for the mafia here. Also suggests NOT inspecting saying even if SorryGuy comes up innocent, he might still be a mafia Godfather. So SorryGuy is pretty much screwed by this logic.
Votes Pawn, confirmed Townie (yes, I voted him too, but this vote actually came earlier)
Interestingly, in posts #336 + #337 Puzzle and claimed Mason buddy Basementdwellers post back-to-back. They never mention each other or hint in the slightest way that they are connected.
Day One Ended at post #544. Up to this point, Puzzle has made no posts whatsoever that would indicate or support in any way his later roleclaim. Nothing.
Votes Azrael, confirmed Townie
Begins his strange theorizing about role-switching. Interestingly, at this point, he is of the opinion that our day 1 claims are the strongest.
Again, the day one claims are most important.
Now, suddenly, he theorizes that the White Paladins were not even in the game Day 1. Those roles were not our "real" roles at all. This post could also be viewed as a Paladin baiting post.
Vote Greebo, confirmed townie.
Look at this. He's "quite sure" no one was a Paladin day 1. How does he get so sure?
Finishes off with a tri-fecta of suspicion against Greebo, Azrael and Unsan. Confirmed Townies all.
More to come....
Your avatar is still Nepal from World Domination Mafia. That's funny.
I'll probably have to break it up into multiple posts.
And kpaca: I have you in for now, but I seem to recall your participation in NEWS games was not that great. Can I get some assurance that you intend to actively participate in this game?
If Silicon is scum and we tell him to fry a townie, he will happily comply raising no suspicion at all. If we give him a "choice" he can easily pick the non-mafia, and still avoid suspicion. If we tell him to kill a mafia, and he doesn't do it, well, yes, that would seem to be good evidence, but that possibility rates lower than the first two.
You may be missing the fact that we are walking a fine line here. My original idea works as long as there are no "extra" mafia kills or townie deaths. If there are, and we miss the lynch twice, then the mafia equal the town before we isolate them (assuming we started with 5 mafia). Without extra townie deaths, we can miss three straight lynches (getting an investigation every time which clears someone else) and still win.
I've got it between Silicon, Titus, and Blinking Spirit for Swinkee's investigation myself, but, then again, Swinkee and Blinking think it should be me.
On the other hand, if no one tried to claim either card, then you would have looked worse.
The single strongest argument in your favor is that post from BD. Frustratingly, he was such a lurker/poor poster, that it is hard to make strong inferences. Yes, it could be he was saying he had role-related reason to believe Puzzle was clear (which could have been several different things, not just a mason claim--which he did not hint at). On the other hand, it might have been something else, and Puzzle it just using it as a way of bolstering his claim. The other "hints" you mention, epeeguy, came very late in the game, well after Puzzle presumably decided to make this claim (if it's a fabrication.)
It does represent a commitment on your part that I will expect you to honor.
Personally, I think that claim stinks like day-old fish. That was your master plan to "clear" yourself? You "knew" one of the Green roles and you hoped to trap a mafia false-claiming it? The odds of that happening were already low from the start. Plus, we wouldn't have known who to believe.
So now we are expected to believe in the existance of a two man Mason group in a 29 person game (one of whom is conveniently dead and can't verify it). I'll be checking your posts, but I don't recall any hints from you in this regard previously, which is something Mason groups routinely will do specifically because of the chance one of them will get killed. I also don't recall you defending Basementdwellers for his lurking at all, nor protesting the fact that Highroller abruptly mod-killed him. Come to think of it, I don't think Highroller would have mod-killed him had he been part of a mason group. Would more likely have tried to get him replaced. And you should certainly have been more upset about it. (I have to check your posts to verify this, I actually don't remember exactly what, if anything you said about it).
The only thing in your favor is the Birds claim, which, if you were a Black Mafia, would have been a risk. There were only 2 Greens to possibly counter-claim you, with 8 open roles, but it would still have been a risk. On the other hand, Birds might genuinely be your card, but you could still be mafia. Perhaps it's time to test the theory that we have an all Black mafia.
I'm ready to vote you, but I'll wait to see what others have to say. Anything else you'd like to claim at this time?
Welcome to the Council of Elrond. This is a mafia game for 20 players. Sign-ups will be on a first come first served basis, although I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.
IN ADDITION: you may not sign up for this game if you are currently alive in both of the other games running on the site (sorry guys). My understanding of the current policy is you can play in two games at a time. You can still sign up to be a replacement.
What I expect:
1.You must participate. Seems obvious, right. I am, nevertheless, consistently amazed by the number of people who will sign up for a game, and then—not play. Please don’t do that.
2.I would like to see at least one post every three real life days. If that’s not possible for some reason—such as vacation—please let me know.
3.Have fun and be polite. Always remember, it’s a game.
IMPORTANT MOD. NOTE: Although there has been an attempt to make the game interesting and flavorful and there are several special roles and abilities floating around, at its heart this will be a basic game of Mafia. By this I mean that there will be “basic townie” type roles. If you find “basic townie” type roles boring, and think you will lose interest if you receive one, please DO NOT SIGN UP FOR THIS GAME. Again, I expect participation from all the players.
The List:
1. God Child (via post in Hosting thread)
2. dazbog_eaterofsouls
3. Hawkeye7
4. LJustus
5. draygn_mage
6. Pibbly
7. Azrael
8. aurorasparrow
9. SOS
10. Rhinocero
11. kpaca
12. bateleur
13. Fayul
14. Armlx
15. Enigma91
16. Deadly Budah
17. help im a bug
18. worthawholebean
19. swinkee
20. StevieT92
Replacements:
1. Titus
2. Puzzle
3. Urban Druid
4. epeeguy
5. Alphainsidious
6. Carrion pigeons
Even though he wants me investigated :wink3: .
How do we find out? Well, the answer is by suspect claims or suspicious play. Puzzle's play hasn't been particularly suspicious, but the claim has been fishy from the start. "Nurse" doesn't sound like a role that would be in the game. But I accepted it, with a plan that basically insured that you stay alive with him protecting you, so if you died, that would indicate that Puzzle was, in fact scum.
Hopefully, it's all a non-issue and StevieT is scum. I'm just thinking ahead and considering all future possibilities. How suspicious.
@Swinkee: I agree completely about Crippled role-Blocking Titus. That can't hurt the town and might be beneficial. But I'm also confused, do you agree or disagree that either StevieT or Puzzle must be mafia? Because you seem to agree about the vote for StevieT, but you are FOSing me for suggesting that Silicon shoot Puzzle if Stevie turns up True.
@Blinking: So I gather you have no difficulty with 4 Protection roles in one game (including 2 straight up Docs, with only one having a back-up). The "StevieT is just being StevieT" excuse only goes so far. I listed the arguments in his favor, and I didn't vote for him, until he came out with that ridiculous protection list, which is either incredibly scummy or incredibly dumb. And I assume he submitted a choice on the night of the mass role-block, even if it didn't go through. That's what I was asking for, his choices.
We really don't have any solid evidence for a Cult either.
Also, I asume you saw my post #866.