It is still, arguably, the best deck in the format. Being able to tutor into play one of the best cards in the format is a pretty good trick, and that's the deck's fallback plan. The list that netdeckers fall back on is Skuloth's list. It is the most streamlined version of the Doomsday version of the deck. There is also a Shimmer Myr version floating around. I play this, a control version that is built to withstand a heavy stax meta, something the Skuloth version has problems with.
The deck is not discussed much because most people consider it "solved" and most new discussions are immediately pointed towards previous lists. Also, the deck is so optimized at this point that it only gets a new card to play with every year or so.
Just so you know, the Voltron version of Zur isn't considered a high tier deck by most players. Competitive Zur lists win suddenly instead of gradually which allows your opponents an opportunity to get back into the game. The list you linked to is fairly optimized for what it is. As for replacements you may want to consider Thought Vessel and Spellbook if you really want to abuse Necropotence or Pongify and Rapid Hybridization if you want additional creature removal.
Skuloth's list (combo) and my list (control/combo) are the two most competitive Zur decklists I've seen online. Check them out.
Good start. Fix up your capitalization and punctuation. Also screw Carpet of Flowers. That thing is so broken. Trying to play a High Tide mana base with that thing around is infuriating.
Carpet of Flowers. Mainly because it is a piece of hate that every other member of my playgroup plays and it is meant to hate on my deck specifically. Unfortunately, I play Zur with a High Tide manabase so I'm pretty much stuck. A much too efficient piece of hate that gives permanent, ever growing advantage that costs one green mana and gives benefit the turn it is played.
Zur is undeniably a strong commander but you will have a tough time getting competitive Zur players to agree on a decklist. Derevi though has a large core of cards which most competitive players agree upon.
I don't really know where you got this impression. Perhaps it was the disconnect between this and the Solving the Format thread, where it is generally agreed that:
If you read the thread it is basically a giant discussion on how to create a storm shell in Grixis. The commander was almost an afterthought.
Saying that the shell and the pilot are what really matter is arrogance. Deck construction is important and generals have an impact. If generals were really just an afterthought then the bounce/tuck rule change would have had zero effect on the meta. Good decks before the rule change had to be able to overcome having their general tucked. Now that that is no longer a possibility some decks came out ahead and others not so much. As for deck construction, there are numerous cards in the format that will destroy certain strategies and to simply ignore that they exist is ignorant. I've seen some "competitive" deck lists whose only answer unexpected situations is Beast Within. My pet card is Contamination and whenever I ask the community about how they would deal with it the common response is no one plays cards like that. Same goes with Extract and its brethren.
I also reject the idea that we'll have to test every commander or every strategy. If nobody thinks a deck is worth testing, chances are it's not worth testing. Testing strategies generally regarded as top-tier and then testing other strategies will be enough information.
I don't see the Solving the Format thread creating reliable source data for this thread. The generalization that everyone is using on there is nonconducive to solving the format. The basis for their decks seem to be very skewed towards the preferences of the pilots and they will not be adjusting the decks based on the matchups they will be facing. Meta adjustments, are to me, a major part of any potential tier lists. The "best" decks need to be able to fight through any hate that might be thrown at them. My playgroup has been together for a few years and we hate on one another as best we can and so every hate card has come into play at one time or another. Currently, as a Zur player, I have to be ready for Null Rod, Stoney Silence, Aven MindcensorStranglehold, Carpet of Flowers and whatever else my group comes up with this week.
I'll state the obvious ones for black in Necropotence and Ad Nauseam. Necro keeps your hand full as long as you have life to pay and if you have Spellbook or Reliquary Tower in play you can draw a ridiculous amount of cards off it very early (25+ card hand on turn 3 or 4 is nice) and keep the gigantic hand. Ad Nauseam is a card that either needs assistance with cards like Angel's Grace or has to be built around but if done under the correct circumstances you can draw your whole deck.
hey sorry, how do you get infinite mana? im new to that sort of thing so the combo doesnt stick out to me
So you cast either Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith and then attach Power Artifact to it by either casting it or using Zur's ability to put it into play. The Monolith with Power produces a positive gain of colorless mana whenever you tap it for colorless and then pay to untap it with its activated ability. So tap for mana, pay to untap at the reduced cost and repeat ad nauseam.
At 4 mana the card is only responsive not proactive. Does it do amazing things when it works? Yes. But do I expect it to be relevant in the first 4 or so turns that I see as the key turns of this deck? No.
Notion Thief is incredible here, wins on the spot with Windfall and Timetwister, I don't know your meta but Bribery seems a little goodstuff-ish. I'd also play 1 of each other basic land to fight Blood Moon effects. Also, 26 lands is really low, does it work consistently?
Notion Thief feels like a win more card to me. By the time I have 7 mana available I should be winning outright not just crippling people's hands. Also one person in my playgroup loves this combo so we're all prepared for it. Notion Thief? Enjoy your 3/3 frog token.
Bribery a meta choice. It is an additional win condition that has a lot of utility in my group. Shutting down Derevi with their own Elesh Norn, getting Consecrated Sphinx after your big Necropotence whiffed or similar plays are nice to have. It's also nice to have a second way to rummage through new decklists.
The land count is actually 25. If I ever use Tolaria West for anything but a tutor something has gone terribly wrong. The low land count works out because the deck has such a low CMC, has numerous ways to filter cards and includes all of the efficient mana acceleration available in the colors. It's not like you will be playing more than one land per turn anyways.
I will throw out my Zur list which I posted last night. Can be found here. Control/Combo is the route I feel is most proficient for Zur. Zur means Necropotence and this version of Zur does its best to exploit Necropotence to its fullest.
It is a great deck but is painful to play in any medium but live. Plays like Angel's Grace to Ad Nauseam or infinite mana into Stroke of Genius to draw your entire library are common win conditions for the deck but can be tedious if you have to click a button to draw each card. Hell even the Power Artifact + Monolith takes a long time because of manually having to do each activation.
Since I created the competitive multiplayer tier list discussion thread it seems about time I throw out my personal decklist for discussion.
Zur the Enchanter is much hated on yet rarely discussed general in EDH. This decklist was my attempt to get the most out of him.
Strategy:
With a fast start the goal is usually to throw out your fast mana and then Timetwister on either turns one or two. This is incredibly disruptive and can win games by itself.
The general plan is to play control until you draw your entire deck using either Angel's Grace into Ad Nauseam or Power Artifact enchanting a Monolith into Stroke of Genius. Once you have all the cards you can combine Power Artifact and Monolith if you haven't already for infinite mana and then Exsanguinate for the win.
The major difference with my list that I don't see in most other lists is my all-in usage of Necropotence. If I get it early I'll usually Necro for 20-25 and rarely lose after doing so.
Am currently tuned for fighting Derevi. Most recent major change is the addition of Monastery Mentor as a secondary win condition. Allows the deck to establish a board presence that it was missing previously.
I've been considering making a primer for the general but there is so much variety in the lists that I've seen that I'll just throw out my list for peer review for now.
The deck is not discussed much because most people consider it "solved" and most new discussions are immediately pointed towards previous lists. Also, the deck is so optimized at this point that it only gets a new card to play with every year or so.
Skuloth's list (combo) and my list (control/combo) are the two most competitive Zur decklists I've seen online. Check them out.
Saying that the shell and the pilot are what really matter is arrogance. Deck construction is important and generals have an impact. If generals were really just an afterthought then the bounce/tuck rule change would have had zero effect on the meta. Good decks before the rule change had to be able to overcome having their general tucked. Now that that is no longer a possibility some decks came out ahead and others not so much. As for deck construction, there are numerous cards in the format that will destroy certain strategies and to simply ignore that they exist is ignorant. I've seen some "competitive" deck lists whose only answer unexpected situations is Beast Within. My pet card is Contamination and whenever I ask the community about how they would deal with it the common response is no one plays cards like that. Same goes with Extract and its brethren.
I don't see the Solving the Format thread creating reliable source data for this thread. The generalization that everyone is using on there is nonconducive to solving the format. The basis for their decks seem to be very skewed towards the preferences of the pilots and they will not be adjusting the decks based on the matchups they will be facing. Meta adjustments, are to me, a major part of any potential tier lists. The "best" decks need to be able to fight through any hate that might be thrown at them. My playgroup has been together for a few years and we hate on one another as best we can and so every hate card has come into play at one time or another. Currently, as a Zur player, I have to be ready for Null Rod, Stoney Silence, Aven Mindcensor Stranglehold, Carpet of Flowers and whatever else my group comes up with this week.
So you cast either Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith and then attach Power Artifact to it by either casting it or using Zur's ability to put it into play. The Monolith with Power produces a positive gain of colorless mana whenever you tap it for colorless and then pay to untap it with its activated ability. So tap for mana, pay to untap at the reduced cost and repeat ad nauseam.
Notion Thief feels like a win more card to me. By the time I have 7 mana available I should be winning outright not just crippling people's hands. Also one person in my playgroup loves this combo so we're all prepared for it. Notion Thief? Enjoy your 3/3 frog token.
Bribery a meta choice. It is an additional win condition that has a lot of utility in my group. Shutting down Derevi with their own Elesh Norn, getting Consecrated Sphinx after your big Necropotence whiffed or similar plays are nice to have. It's also nice to have a second way to rummage through new decklists.
The land count is actually 25. If I ever use Tolaria West for anything but a tutor something has gone terribly wrong. The low land count works out because the deck has such a low CMC, has numerous ways to filter cards and includes all of the efficient mana acceleration available in the colors. It's not like you will be playing more than one land per turn anyways.
It is a great deck but is painful to play in any medium but live. Plays like Angel's Grace to Ad Nauseam or infinite mana into Stroke of Genius to draw your entire library are common win conditions for the deck but can be tedious if you have to click a button to draw each card. Hell even the Power Artifact + Monolith takes a long time because of manually having to do each activation.
Zur the Enchanter is much hated on yet rarely discussed general in EDH. This decklist was my attempt to get the most out of him.
Strategy:
With a fast start the goal is usually to throw out your fast mana and then Timetwister on either turns one or two. This is incredibly disruptive and can win games by itself.
The general plan is to play control until you draw your entire deck using either Angel's Grace into Ad Nauseam or Power Artifact enchanting a Monolith into Stroke of Genius. Once you have all the cards you can combine Power Artifact and Monolith if you haven't already for infinite mana and then Exsanguinate for the win.
The major difference with my list that I don't see in most other lists is my all-in usage of Necropotence. If I get it early I'll usually Necro for 20-25 and rarely lose after doing so.
Am currently tuned for fighting Derevi. Most recent major change is the addition of Monastery Mentor as a secondary win condition. Allows the deck to establish a board presence that it was missing previously.
1x Zur the Enchanter
Creature: 4
1x Dark Confidant
1x Monastery Mentor
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Trinket Mage
Instant: 28
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Angel's Grace
1x Arcane Denial
1x Boomerang
1x Brainstorm
1x Cabal Ritual
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Counterspell
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Dark Ritual
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Force of Will
1x Frantic Search
1x High Tide
1x Mana Drain
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Misdirection
1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Pact of Negation
1x Pongify
1x Rapid Hybridization
1x Silence
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Turnabout
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Bribery
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Duress
1x Exsanguinate
1x Extract
1x Gitaxian Probe
1x Imperial Seal
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Ponder
1x Preordain
1x Reanimate
1x Terminus
1x Thoughtseize
1x Timetwister
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Windfall
1x Yawgmoth's Will
Artifact: 18
1x Azorius Signet
1x Basalt Monolith
1x Chrome Mox
1x Dimir Signet
1x Expedition Map
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Grim Monolith
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Mox Diamond
1x Mox Opal
1x Scroll Rack
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Spellbook
1x Talisman of Dominance
1x Talisman of Progress
1x Bitterblossom
1x Contamination
1x Land Tax
1x Necromancy
1x Necropotence
1x Power Artifact
Lands: 26
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Command Tower
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
9x Island
1x Mana Confluence
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Scrubland
1x Seachrome Coast
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Tolaria West
1x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
I've been considering making a primer for the general but there is so much variety in the lists that I've seen that I'll just throw out my list for peer review for now.
Thoughts?